SATURDAY, JUNE 3, 2023
Who got into Stuyvesant High? At the New York Times, it happens (almost) every spring.
It isn't on the front page this year. At this early stage in the game, the topic is being downplayed as opposed to some preceding years.
Still, they do it (virtually) every spring! On page A12, headline included, Troy Closson's news report this morning begins as shown:
Stuyvesant High School Admitted 762 New Students. Only 7 Are Black.
About 10 percent of offers to New York City’s most elite public high schools went to Black and Latino students this year, education officials announced on Thursday, in a school system where they make up more than two-thirds of the student population overall.
The numbers—which have remained stubbornly low for years—placed a fresh spotlight on racial and ethnic disparities in the nation’s largest school system.
At Stuyvesant High School in Manhattan, the most selective of the city’s so-called specialized schools, seven of the 762 offers made went to Black students, down from 11 last year and eight in 2021. Twenty Latino students were offered spots at Stuyvesant, as were 489 Asian students and 158 white students. The rest went to multiracial students and students whose race was unknown.
The report continues from there. In print editions, the headline says this:
Elite Schools In New York Show Gaps In Diversity
Without any question, that headline is accurate. That said, where's the rest of this (very important) cultural story?
A report of this type appears in the Times (almost) every year. This year, only seven black kids got admitted to Stuyvesant High, the jewel of the city's school system.
Troy Closson is a young reporter (Northwestern, class of 2020) with no particular background in education reporting. What we're going to say is not—is not—a commentary on him.
What we'll say is a commentary on the values of the New York Times. It's a commentary on the way the Times discusses—or more accurately, chooses to avoid discussing—the background to this situation.
There's an obvious background to this situation which the Times routinely disappears. That background can be spotted in these average scores from last year's Grade 8 Naep math test:
Average scores, New York City
Grade 8 math, Naep 2022
White kids: 296.01
Black kids: 247.11
Hispanic kids: 254.43
Asian ancestry kids: 303.38
For the record, the Naep plays no role—zero; none—in the admission process to Gotham's high-powered "specialized high schools."
That said, those numbers suggest the existence of gigantic achievement gaps among the groups in question. And no, it isn't just New York City. The national figures looked like this:
Average scores, U.S. public schools
Grade 8 math, Naep 2022
White kids: 283.30
Black kids: 252.08
Hispanic kids: 260.81
Asian ancestry kids: 303.90
Nationwide, the white/black achievement gap was substantially smaller. That said, it was still enormous, and Asian kids were lapping the field as compared to everyone else, as they always do.
We mention these figures because the New York Times won't. Presumably, the lofty people at the Times find such numbers embarrassing, awkward, undesirable.
Presumably for that reason, they present their annual report without offering any particular information about the background to the situation at high-powered Stuyvesant High. Often, they do so while brandishing the crowd-pleasing term "segregation" in typical crowd-pleasing ways.
For the record, the vast majority of Gotham kids won't go to Stuyvesant High. In fact, the vast majority of Gotham kids won't go to any of the city's high-powered "specialized high schools."
Those high schools serve the city's highest-achieving students. Most kids, from whatever demographic, don't belong to that group.
Those Naep figures display the gigantic achievement gaps which exist among the vast majority of kids in New York City—among the kids who won't be going to Stuyvesant High, then possibly on to Yale. In its education reporting, the Times shows amazingly little interest in the needs, the interests or the happiness of that vast number of kids.
Instead, the paper prefers to puff and preen about the one percent.
We've postponed the report we had planned for today to bring you this information. In closing, we'll tell you this about those gigantic achievement gaps—about the gaps you'll never be asked to read about in the New York Times:
No one cares about those punishing gaps, and no one ever has! The high-minded people at the Times won't even report their existence.
It's been like this for a very long time. For decades now, there has been little sign that our own blue tribe actually cares about this.
Almost every year: Oddly, we can't find a news report in the Times on this evergreen topic from the spring of last year.
By long tradition, this high-minded news report has been an annual event. By tradition, the newspaper laments the terrible numbers from Stuyvesant High while omitting all background information.
It's virtue signaling at its most obvious. It happens (almost) every year:
April 4, 2021, page A18:
Only 8 Black Students Are Admitted to Stuyvesant High School
March 19, 2020. page A26:
This Year, Only 10 Black Students Got Into N.Y.C.’s Top High School
March 18, 2019. page A1:
Only 7 Black Students Got Into Stuyvesant, N.Y.’s Most Selective High School, Out of 895 Spots
March 7, 2018, page A25:
When it comes to this important topic, the New York Times spills with virtue, is bereft of information or ideas.
This is who and what we actually are. As we've noted again and again, it's been this way forever.
There is major news on the media front this morning as Chris Licht leaves CNN. Somerby has never mentioned what has gone on there, but Digby discusses it:
ReplyDeletehttps://digbysblog.net/2023/06/02/inside-cnns-descent-down-the-rabbit-hole/
I’m glad licht is gone.
DeleteNAEP scores did not figure into the selection of studernts for Stuyvesant High because NAEP is not a student assessment test, but a measure of how well our schools are doing their job. Results are not individualized, not used by schools to identify student needs (except generally) and not reported back to parents or students individually. NAEP is not an SAT or ACT or PSAT or admission test of any kind. NYC has been using its own admissions test to select students for not just special high schools but also middle schools.
ReplyDeleteMeanwhile, highly selective colleges have stopped using tests like the SAT and ACT to select incoming freshmen. Why? Because they have realized that such admission tests correlate mainly with parent income and not with college achievement. Many minority applicants do poorly on such tests but do well in their actual courses after admission. In other words, those admission tests are not good predictors of achievement after admission and tend mainly to make it difficult for minority students to enter college. They are a barrier that maintains discrimination against those whose families do not have money and upper class status. That's why many elite college are no longer using those tests.
Somerby talks a bunch about NAEP but he has not addressed whether the admission test used by NYC is a fair selection tool when it comes to admitting students to its high schools. Its tendency to privilege Asian students in the selection process suggests it is not. Somerby has also never discussed the role of certain middle schools in preparing and funneling students into selective high schools, and the tendency of Asian students to dominate the population of those middle schools, working the system to make sure their kids have access earlier in the educational process. Instead, Somerby presents those NAEP scores as if they were determinative of a child's future, a measure of innate ability or inability, when that is not what they measure at all.
A lottery system or a quota system would be more fair and would also permit school administrators to see whether or not black and hispanic students are capable of success in selective high schools if given the chance to attend. It would also permit evaluation of the current admission tests, to see whether it actually does predict success and not just function to prevent access by certain groups. And a revamping of an elite-middle school system that cannot be attended by black and Hispanic students is the next step.
Notice how Somerby defends the status quo of an obviously bigoted system instead of engaging in problem solving. He likes it just fine that black and Hispanic students cannot attend Stuyvesant and other elite high schools, because those black kids are just too stupid to succeed -- lookee lookee NAEP proves it.
You're nuts, he does nothing of the kind. He's talking about why the NYT --and apparently you too -- are so concerned about these ELITE schools and who gets into them.
DeleteIt's also a TERRIFICALLY bad idea to use a lottery to get into these schools. Talk about dooming a lot of kids to failure and self-doubt.
Is it so much better then, to only doom the black and Hispanic kids to "failure and self-doubt"?
DeleteDo you think even young kids don't understand chance and luck? Is a high school kid going to blame the lack of a winning ticket in a lottery on their own lack of effort and not luck?
Are you aware that a lottery was used by the US Govt to select draftees during the Vietnam war, as the fairest way to spread the risk?
Are you aware that parents are TERRIFICALLY concerned about their kids getting ahead in life, finding good jobs, marrying and having a family, being happy?
Objectively, going to college results in higher paying employment in a more satisfying occupation. It is protection against the changes in the job market. Going to college depends on doing well in high school, so those who attend so-called ELITE schools (which are actually public high schools supposedly available to all students in the district) have an advantage in being admitted. It is only because the admission test favors those with prior advantages in middle school and in the home (the true ELITES in this situation) that opportunities are not in reality open to all. There is a clear statistical racial bias in who gets to attend high schools intended for all. That makes them ELITE when they didn't start out that way.
The problem is that the city of NY needs to figure out how to ensure fair access to all students in these specialized high schools. Until it does that, ALL parents who have hopes for their kids have the right to be concerned without being called themselves elitists because they care about opportunities for their kids.
Maybe you should go back to wherever you were lurking and think up some better defenses of Somerby's shoddy work. These aren't very good.
In all of his discussion of NAEP scores, Somerby has never talked about the variability within the disaggregated groups. For Somerby, it is as if every black child received the same score, that black average that is so much lower than the white or overall averages. But variability among humans is the reason why statistics were invented. Not only is there a mean or average score, but there is a standard deviation, a range that measures the top and bottom scores within a group, even a group formed by members of a single race. There will be black top scorers and black bottom scorers, not just a mean. There will be a distribution of scores, showing the frequency with which certain scores were obtained by individuals taking the test.
ReplyDeleteThat distribution is interesting because it might show that there are indeed some very high scorers among black students. It might also show a greater number of students with low scores (due to greater poverty, malnutrition, health problems, disadvantaged early learning environments, disruption of family life and other obstacles to learning). Such low scores would tend to drag the mean down, obscuring the presence of high scores in the distribution.
Are there only 7 high scoring black and Hispanic kids in NYC? We might know that if Somerby ever talked about the other statistics provided by NAEP testing. Should those bright individuals who are interested in science be excluded because the overall cohort of black kids produced a lower average score on NAEP? Of course not. But then you have the issue of the special admission test used by NYC to identify those kids who did well in science in middle school -- the one that those kids who attended special middle schools tend to ace, because they are being prepared to take it, while black kids in their neighborhood middle schools are not.
Somerby knows about this controversy because the NY Times has been describing it in its ongoing articles about those specialized high schools and their unwillingness to admit black and Hispanic students. But Somerby today pretends it is because the bulk of black and Hispanic kids are just too lacking in proficiency to do the work. But, as has been shown repeatedly, the test scores do not correlate well with college performance. Most likely, they do not correlate well with high school performance either, were more of the higher scoring black and Hispanic students permitted to attempt the work.
If Somerby were truly interested in fairness, he might suggest that Stuyvesant bite the bullet and limit its admissions to only Asian students. After all, they do better than white students. Why is NYC admitting any of those lower performing white students at all, when the Asian students are clearly smarter on NAEP?
They're not "unwilling" to admit these kids. The real question is, why are you people so concerned about these elite school kids and no one else?
DeleteWhat is your evidence that anyone here is concerned about only elite schools and no one else?
DeleteTwo thirds of the entire school population in NYC is black or Latino but Stuyvesant could only offer 18 out of 762 spaces to black or Latino students (7 black, 11 Latino)? And Somerby disputes use of the word "segregation" to describe this outcome?
ReplyDeletesegregation definition: "the action or state of setting someone or something apart from others"
7/762 = .014 or 1.4%
White students are clearly being kept apart from black ones in NYC's special high schools. Whites are 14% of the district. Asians are 17%. How can Somerby claim that this high school is not segregated, when the percents are so disproportionate to the demographics of the overall student body?
During Jim Crow, when white people did not want black people to vote, they devised a "test" to determine who had the knowledge to vote. That seemed superficially valid, but was devised in such a way as to enable all white people (even those illiterate and uneducated) but screened out all black people. How they did that varied, but it accomplished its purpose. Sometimes a poll tax did the job instead of a test.
In NYC, a "test" and a set of procedures are being used to keep black and Hispanic kids from attending a specialized science high school. How this is being accomplished is not being examined by Somerby or the NYTimes, but the impact is obvious on the admission rates. Somerby should be calling for NYC to examine its procedures and figure out why black and Hispanic kids are not being allowed to study along with white and Asian students. Instead Somerby is presenting "evidence" that there exist no black and Hispanic kids who might benefit from science education. Historically, this is no different than the barriers to full participation in our society presented in the bad old days.
Somerby would understand this if he had ever taken a black studies course himself, preferably in college. In fact, someone aiming to teach inner city black kids in Baltimore really should have had some education about their history and needs. It seems pretty obvious that he didn't get that at Harvard (by his own choice). His argument seems to be that black and Hispanic students should not have access to enriched curriculum because they are just too dumb to do the math based on average NAEP scores (which come from all black kids, not their own work). And if a black middle school didn't teach them as much science as the kids at special middle schools attended by Asian students, then it is still too bad because they just don't know enough to do well in that specialized high school -- at which only those with the very highest of scores on their admission test can ever succeed. Obviously, Somerby has no idea if this is true or not. It isn't true for college admissions.
The numbers are not correct. There were 7 offers to black students and 20 to Latino, not 11. That would be:
Delete(7+20)/762 = .0354 or 3.5%
I don't know where they got the 10% figure in the article, perhaps by including mixed race and decline to state students in with the black and Latino?
You honestly think there's a deliberate attempt at segregation here? Really?
DeleteI suspect that Bob also knows a lot more than you do about Black kids in Baltimore. What a condescending ass you are.
Yes, and I believe that those involved may think that they are identifying the best and brightest without considering how their "test" presents a barrier. The numbers speak for themselves. Intelligence and talent are randomly distributed across the human race. When a test fails to show that, there is something wrong with the test, not the kids and certainly not due to their skin color or ethnicity.
DeleteBob knows much less about those black kids in Baltimore than I do because he hasn't taught there since the late 1970s which was over 40 years ago. He has no kids to refresh his knowledge of today's schools. He hasn't kept up with the educational community, with the teaching profession (for which he was never properly trained to begin with), with the literature on learning, especially the way cognitive science has changed teaching. He doesn't know what today's kids are watching, what games they are playing, who their idols are and how they experience their world. I don't think he ever knew much about black culture, but he certainly doesn't know much about it today, judging by his comments about BLM and current black issues, concerns and interests. I can guarantee that I know more than Somerby about this stuff.
Name-calling is not a substitute for knowledge. Somerby disdains expertise because he has none. You are backing the wrong horses here.
If anyone here has doubted that Somerby is a bigot, today's essay reminds us of his racial attitudes.
ReplyDelete"When it comes to this important topic, the New York Times spills with virtue, is bereft of information or ideas."
ReplyDeleteSo is Somerby bereft of information or ideas. And he says "this is the way we are" as if all of us were (1) the New York Times, and (2) as bereft as Somerby himself, who is very bereft indeed.
For myself, I think opportunities in NYC need to be accessible to all kids interested in science, not just those whose parents were savvy and manipulated the system to get their kids into a special high school. And schools should be preparing all kids not just a privileged few who get into the right middle schools. And elementary schools on up should be stimulating interest in science, not just channeling the few kids who find that interest in the home or through outside influences. Segregating science from mainstream society is also a bad idea.
“Virtue signaling at its most obvious.” I’d say this whole post is an overwrought effort to shoehorn this hack conservative phrase into a situation that has nothing to do with it. I guess he means the Times is virtue signaling by reporting this racial disparity without reporting the (obvious) fact that some version of academic standard is used to define who gets into the schools. Bob’s endless drift to Republican balderdash is the obvious part.
DeleteBob is clearly wondering why there is so much concern about elite schools like Stuy and not the plight or concerns or INTERESTS of the other kids.
DeleteWhy do most of you people worry so much about these elite?
WE people did not published the NY Times article. WE didn't select that article write an essay about either. BOB did that.
DeleteI worry about how many Hispanic kids attend elite high schools because that is a fast-track to college admission and better jobs. I don't care about those already ELITE, but about getting more Hispanics and black students into that ELITE category where they will have better opportunities to succeed in life. Why shouldn't any of us care about that?
Americans always root for the underdog, unless they are Republican bigots.
The plight or concerns or INTERESTS of black and Hispanic kids INCLUDE gaining access to elite schools that help white and Asian students get into college and get good jobs. Are you really saying that because kids are black or Hispanic, they are automatically interested in low-paying, low-skill jobs that will keep them and their families in the lower class? How many would like to go to these high schools but don't know how to accomplish that?
Somerby no doubt thinks that the low-scoring black kids who are so far behind according to NAEP belong in the disadvantaged neighborhoods of Baltimore where he condescended to teach, briefly, until his standup comedy career gained traction (and the Vietnam war was over). He has no idea what the dreams or goals or "concerns" of his black students might have been, much less what such kids dream about today. And neither do you.
@semichorus: The New York Times has an entire section devoted to education, which consists of more than this one article. Not that you would know that from reading this blog.
DeleteNeither Somerby nor the NY Times article wonders or explains how many female students were admitted. I guess no one cares about girls in science, of any race.
ReplyDeleteStuy isn't about science btw. You got the wrong elite high school in NYC.
DeleteThe question is still valid. How many girls are being offered the opportunity to attend these high schools? The article doesn't say and Somerby doesn't ask. That gives the strong impression that no one cares.
DeleteThe language of the article is a bit confusing because they talk about offers of admission and not how many students actually wind up attending the various special high schools. The acceptance rate is important too. How many black students have difficulty arranging the transportation and other concerns to attend a magnet school? How many might have family responsibilities that interfere with attendance resulting in inability to accept the offer of admission? Reporting offers instead of actual attendance might make it seem like there are more minority students than actually attend such schools.
ReplyDelete"When it comes to this important topic, the New York Times spills with virtue..."
ReplyDeleteWhy does Somerby's tone imply that there is something wrong with wanting more minority students to have equal opportunities with white and Asian students? What's wrong with "spilling with" virtue?
The article mentions that DiBlasio wanted to eliminate the city's gifted and talented programs in elementary schools. If the NY Times opposed that, good for them! Does Somerby perhaps think that because the mean NAEP scores are lower for black and Hispanic students, there are no gifted or talened black and Latino students?
There is a focus in gifted and talented education on how to locate and identify minority students with academic talent. Would eliminating such early programs result in more or fewer black and Hispanic applicants to high school science programs? Somerby has never voiced support for gifted programs in schools, but opportunities (or exclusion) begin early, as does stereotyping of minority children.
Racists hate blacks and latins, of course. But why do racists prefer asians over whites?
ReplyDeleteSomeone who believes in dominance kicks down but shows obsequious deference to those above them in the hierarchy (or those who they believe are above). Stereotypes say Asians are smarter and harder working and racists deal in stereotypes.
DeleteSo racists accept that asians are above them in the hierarchy.
DeleteAcademically, not socially.
DeleteSo racists have decided on this order of preference:
Deleteasian
white
latin
black
And that explains acceptance at stuyvesant.
A Black a Jew and an Irishman are sitting at a bus stop. There's an urn there and they take the top off it. A genie pops out and says 'I've been trapped in this urn and for helping me escape each one of you receives any wish you want'. He asks the black guy what he wants. The black guy says 'I want all the black people to go back to mother Africa and live in peace where we belong'. The genie blinks his eyes and it happens. Then he asked the Jewish guy what he wants and the Jewish guy says 'I want all the Jewish people to go back to Israel and live in peace as it should be.' So the genie blinks his eyes and poof, his wish.is fulfilled. And then he asked the Irishman what do you want? And the Irishman says 'all the bloacks and Jews moved away? I'll have a Pepsi.'
DeleteOh, it absolutely explains it, anonymouse 2:19pm.
DeleteThe white administrators and educators, at specialized high schools, are fine with slick Asian parents, in their elitist Asian communities, being masters at gaming the system for their nerdy progeny.
After all, they’re the Master Race.
Didn’t you know?
@2:19 That is not the order of “preferance.” It is the order of stereotypical academic performance. Any individual should not be judged based on stereotype but on individual ability. Notice that Somerby has been justfying the lack of admission offers to to black and Hispanic applicants using NAEP averages, not by examining the characteristics of the applicants. He seems to be claiming there are no more smart black students capable of learning science in NYC.
DeleteAnonymouse 22:55pm, next time, go with I’ll just have a V-8. “
Delete@2:19 Your list is the order of average scores on NAEP. It is Somerby’s justification, so that makes Somerby the racist. He argues that adding more blacks would be unfair to Asians. White and Asian parents do prepare for the test and angle to get their kids into certain middle schools, while black students/parents don’t know there is a test or that the special high schools exist until later.
DeleteThere are problems that need to be addressed. Somerby’s use of NAEP and his talk about unpleasant realities is racist.
Cecelia, the point is that Irish are white.
DeleteAnonymouse 5:38pm, my point is that a V-8 is funnier than a Pepsi. Funnier is what you want in a joke.
DeleteNo one wants you to clutter these comments with racist jokes.
DeleteThe Irishman can ask the genie to take all his people back to his mother country leaving the black man who then could ask for a carton of menthol cigarettes.
DeleteAnonymouse 6:51pm, if the Scottish were left, they’d ask for blue paint and a hatchet.
DeletePepsi is at least as funny as v-8.
DeleteAnonymouse 7:19pm, do you think Yahoo Cola would be too labored?
DeleteCecelia, it’s hard to explain a joke. Pepsi is funny. It just is.
DeleteAnonymouse7:59pm, Pepsi is as funny as tea.
DeleteNo, it's not. Even Coke isn't as funny as Pepsi.
DeleteHow to read difficult books:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.aft.org/ae/summer2023/willingham
Thank you for the link.
DeleteThe Time's failure to report racial differences in reading and math is part of a general practice to avoid reporting negative things about blacks. So, a perp's race is withheld when the criminal is black. They avoid showing pictures of black perps. They don't report statistics showing that the crime rate for blacks is higher than for whites and much higher for Asians. As some comments above show, mentioning these things can one to be called a "racist".
ReplyDeleteSo, does this type of spin do more good or more harm? Historically, reporting about blacks was unfairly negative. Maybe this spin is needed to offset the huge prejudice that existed.
OTOH truth and reality are generally preferable. When the real problems aren't known, the wrong solutions will be applied. Regarding special schools, the problem is education. "Solutions" based on supposed racism will not help.
Regarding crime, people living in high crime black neighborhoods need stronger police protection. BLM ideas that weaken police protection actually harm the large majority of honest blacks.
I would add that some people don't care if the problem is solved, as long as it's not visible, They don't care about black crime victims, as long a racial differences in crime are not shown. They want more blacks in special schools and in colleges even if some of them aren't ready for the curriculum.
Crime is down everywhere but David will never tell you that. The main cause of crime is poverty. He won’t mention that either.
DeleteAs explained above, the admission test doesn’t predict who will do well. Why not choose kids based on interest and then see how well they do? A biased selection method is racist.
David, the NYT would insist that you capitalize the term “Black”.
DeleteAll media adhere to a style manual to standardize usage.
Delete@4:29 Crime is either up or down, depending on what periods you're comparing. Regardless of the trend, blacks in high crime neighborhoods are subject to excessive crime. They need help.
DeleteIt's a fact that the black crime rate is higher than other groups. It's only a theory that the main cause of crime is poverty. It's convenient for those who favor increased social benefits, but AFAIK that theory is unproved.
BTW the main cause may not be the best cure. Consider the question of how to protect the excessive number of black crime victims. Even if ending poverty is a long-term cure, a quicker cure might be the common sense approach of better law enforcement.
Anonymouse 6:02 pm, it’s what they “standardize” that’s the rub.
DeleteIt is not “only a theory” that poverty causes crime. It is consensus among experts who study crime, and true worldwide. You don’t get to invent your own reality.
DeleteProviding a guaranteed income not only reduces crime but improves many social problems. We do not have the will to spend the money, but the solution is clear. Not surprising that right wingers would prefer to create a police state.
DeleteCecelia, so cute that you think blacks should be minimized at every opportunity.
DeleteAnonymouse 6:16pm, no.
Delete@6:15 Chicago will be a good test. The new Mayor seemingly intends to weaken police protection. Let's see what happens to the crime rate there.
Delete@6:12 Do you have a link verifying the "Consensus" you assert?
Deletegoogle crime cause
DeleteLook at Causes of crime at encyclopedia.com
DeleteThanks, @6:51. You source says
Delete"By the early twenty-first century the prevailing thought among criminologists was that criminal behavior comes from a combination of factors. People are complex and influenced by social, biological, psychological, and economic conditions in different ways. The links between crime and employment, education, and family life remain extremely hard to predict and difficult to define."
It said that psychologists study psychological factors, sociologists study economic ones (poverty), described the Chicago School which focused on poverty, and the progressives who want to reducecrime by addressing social problems, and finished with the Broken Window approach to reducing felonies by improving the neighborhood. All of that is about poverty as a cause of crime. Read more.
DeleteCecelia and David are poor, and they’re not criminals. Their parents didn’t have much but loved them and instilled moral values.
DeleteAnonymouse 8:02pm, true for most of the country.
DeleteWe are so blessed
No one said all poor people are criminals.
DeleteRacists are clever. They hold blacks down but let asians rise.
ReplyDeleteAsians have had a different economic relationship with white people. This is so obvious that it makes your motives suspect.
DeleteNot suspect. Problematic.
DeleteContext:
ReplyDeletehttps://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/1665068667460112384
Thank you, this is very interesting. I agree with the comment questioning whether the talent pool is so limited and fixed. If the free city high schools were actually competing, they would make more offers and be turned down due to this competition.
DeleteI like asians. The women are so cute.
ReplyDeleteThe article in the New York Times says this:
ReplyDelete“The annual numbers traditionally fan a debate over the admissions process at the eight schools, to which acceptance is determined by a single entrance exam.”
The clear inference is that black and Hispanic students aren’t scoring high enough on this test, which is exactly the same thing Somerby is saying. So Somerby is adding nothing, other than accusing the author and the newspaper of “virtue signaling.”
And yet, acceptance to Stuyvesant and the other specialized high schools is important to quite a few students and parents. Just ask those Asian kids. It isn’t virtue signaling to ask if there is anything that could get more black and Hispanic students into these high schools, such as looking at more than a score on a single test. There are plenty of black and Hispanic kids who really really want to go to these schools. It isn’t virtue signaling to take an interest in them.
mh -- the way to get more black and Hispanic kids into these schools is to improve the education of black and Hispanic students. Then, more of them will do well on the entrance exam. That's the whole ball game. Anything else is just sniping at the edges.
DeleteBTW a more a more urgent issue IMO is the fate of poorly educated kids. This group may be disproportionately black and Hispanic, but the problem is there regardless of ethnicity. Black students are 3 to 4 years behind whites, on average. That means that half of blacks are even farther behind. My Ph.D. wife and I struggle to deal with income tax calculations, insurance rules, and overall financial planning. What happens to people with weak reading and arithmetic skills in our society?
IMO the most urgent challenge to our schools is it make sure that all Americans have adequate basic reading and mathematics skills. No Child Left Behind didn't work, but they had the right idea. We need a new way to achieve NCLB.
- I want to say one word to you, just one word.
Delete- Yes, sir.
- Are you listening?
- Yes, I am.
- Phonics.
- Exactly how do you mean?
- There’s a great future in phonics. Think about it. Will you think about it?
David, the mean or average is not necessarily the median so half are not always below. There are bright black and Hispanic kids, no matter what the differences between white and black means. They deserve a seat at the table. They do not have to wait until all black kids are better educated to get their chance.
Delete@9:37 Bright black and Hispanic kids are getting their chance right now. Those who pass the test are getting into the special school.
DeleteDo you advocate a lower standard for black and Hispanic kids?
mh, can’t we just ship these people off to here?:
Deletehttps://www.laguardiahs.org/
I recently saw a video of an approx 160 pound ballerina on TikTok.
DeleteShe should be a prime candidate.
They need to fix this:
Delete“”According to racial equality activist Richard Lapchick, the NBA in 2021 was composed of 73.2 percent black players, 16.8 percent white players, 3.1 percent Latino players of any race, and 0.4 percent Asian players. Additionally, 6.6 percent of the players were classified as either multiracial or "other" races.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_NBA
The racists like black basket-ball players.
DeleteOther people simply admire who can win.
DeleteDavid, I advocate allowing anyone interested to apply and then using a lottery to select those offered admission.
DeleteBob makes a good point: to stress on the elite schools and only point out their selectivity problems vis a vis minorities is indeed virtue signaling. It's going for the easy topic -- every year.
DeleteSomeone is spamming the comments with supportive comments for Somerby. Where do these trolls come from. This person has not read the previous discussions but is using the same old Republican arguments and calling names.
DeleteWhat kept him? It has been days since Somerby put this garbage up. Did Somerby call for reinforcements from the troll patrol?
The NY Times reflects the concerns of its readers when it talks about admissions to these high schools -- there is an activist cadre in the city who has complained about them. The NY Times didn't just write about this topic on a whim. It is an ongoing controversy in the city that the paper services.
@4:00 wrote "I advocate allowing anyone interested to apply and then using a lottery to select those offered admission."
DeleteI disagree. Admitting less qualified students will have two bad effects:
1. Many of the less qualified kids won't be able to keep up. Especially in STEM courses.
2. The school will reduce standards, so that the less qualified kids don't all flunk.
These two problems is prevalent today in our colleges, due to affirmative action.
1 and 2 can’t both be true. If there are white kids who drop out, why can’t there be black or Hispanic ones? Struggling is not devastating to kids. With support of teachers, kids learn perseverance and coping skills. Learning often takes hard work and effort, which is why motivation and interest are better selection criteria than whose parents push hardest. No one tells kids they can’t try out for athletics, why get squeamish about academics? I doubt the kids with below average NAEP math scores will apply, but the ones at the top of the curve will have a chance to show what they can do. Supporting learning is what teachers are supposed to do.
DeleteThis is the consequence of single parent families in many of our minority communities.
ReplyDeleteChildren of divorced parents are less likely to attend and graduate from college, but there is a confound because those who are better educated are more likely to stay married than those who divorce. Children of college educated parents are more likely to attend college. So, it is unclear whether this difference is because parents are more educated (and thus stay married) or because being married helps kids prepare for and graduate from college.
DeleteMinority parents are less educated but also more likely to get divorced. Does the lack of education contribute to the higher divorce rate? Does the lack of education also make it less likely that their kids will attend and graduate college, or is it the divorce that is contributing to that?
A study in Taiwan showed that the psychological problems of divorce are disruptive to college attendance whereas a parent losing a job was not. That suggests that it isn't the financial consequences of divorce that may have an impact on a child's college attendance. That study did not examine the role of parental education, nor were any of the subjects minority group members in Taiwan.
I believe figuring out why divorce impacts higher education of children may be more complicated than @8:49 wishes to make it. Simply telling people to stay married isn't going to help, if the real factor is that better educated parents tend to send their kids to college. And I suspect that there may be something about being a minority in our culture that makes it harder for minorities to get and stay married. For one thing, black women tend to be better educated than black men and thus may have a harder time finding a spouse in her own SES group. White conservatives who point to divorce rates rarely consider the difficulties women have finding someone to marry, perhaps because those conservatives believe women should not be educated.
What is the impact of negative attitudes towards women's education on conservative children's college graduation rates? That may be driving the whole phenomenon of conservatives being overall less educated than liberals.
Here is an interesting essay on divorce, education and conservative family values, from Yastreblansky:
Deletehttps://yastreblyansky.substack.com/p/on-boebert
It is about Lauren Boebert's life, the cycle of poverty she represents and how conservatives perpetuate the situation Boebert was raised in. Notice that Boebert is not black and didn't grow up in a minority neighborhood but does embody the difficulties single women find themselves in -- the question is why she wouldn't be working for a better life instead of inflicting her own transcended difficulties on her children.
This is what real media musing and coverage looks like:
ReplyDeletehttps://nomoremister.blogspot.com/2023/06/the-washington-post-published-1652-word.html
Steve M. describes the coordinated campaign to intimidate Target over pride month advertising and merchandise. He examines the role played by right wing media in stoking terrorist threats aimed at such businesses.
For example, this:
"At [a] Target in South Florida, shoppers have called employees “child groomers,” a far-right slang term for pedophiles, and accused them of “shoving your woke agenda down our throats,” according to the manager who spoke to The Washington Post.
When he donned a bright safety vest over his company-issued Pride-themed T-shirt to help a customer carry goods to his car, the shopper looked at him and said, “Oh, is that so I could shoot you easier?”
There is a lot that Somerby could be saying about how the right wing media has encouraged threats against people. Somerby wasted more than 1 week repeating the same nonsense day after day about NAEP scores when Target workers cannot do their jobs without interference by rabid right wingers incited by Fox and other right wing media.
Objective tests are a benefit to discriminated-against minorities. It certainly worked that way for me. In the anti-semitic insurance industry, the company was forced to promote me when I passed my actuarial exams.
ReplyDeleteThe same principle is working at Stuyvesant. Asians have been discriminated by both the left and the right. They nevertheless get fair treatment from an objective test.
You’re not always wrong.
DeleteObjectivity is not the only criterion for a test. It also needs to be a valid selector of whatever you are trying to measure. And when you call it objective, it implies that the test is unbiased and does not tend to select one category of student over another. That is what is missing with this test, which seems to over-select Asian students and under-select black and Hispanic students.
DeleteSee The Mismeasure of Man by Stephen Jay Gould for a description of the biases found in the supposedly objective SAT and ACT tests. See also Claude Steele's work on "stereotype threat" and how affects minority test-takers.
If the insurance industry were as anti-semitic as you claim, there would be some activism against it, but there is nothing at all about this using a google search. All of the hits concern WWII. Can you produce any non-anecdotal evidence of the anti-semitism of the insurance industry?
The racists who devised the test wanted to admit asians. I admire them for being able to think up questions that favor asians. I would have no idea how to do it.
DeleteGive us three examples of questions that favor whites and asians, and three others that favor blacks and hispanics.
DeleteNot questions from the actual test, but questions that would have the designated effect, if they were in the test.
DeleteIt’s hard to figure which people anonymices hate most- contrarians or parents.
DeleteBack in the 90s there was a black culture test put together that most white people would fail and nearly all black people would pass. You create a bunch of questions and then test them on actual people until you find the right set.
DeleteFor this high school admission test, just ask the middle school science teachers to write questions their kids should know at graduation, then give those questions to the kids at minority middle schools, throw out the ones they can answer and just use the ones they can’t answer; rinse and repeat.
Prior to the last decade (and Watchmen) you could have asked white people what Juneteenth was and they wouldn’t know but blacks would. Or what are Jheri curls? Or what is playing the dozens? What is AME? These examples may be dated but there are current equivalents.
Let’s see specific examples of questions that blacks and latinos know but whites and asians don’t.
DeleteI don’t think knowledge of jheri curls and the dozens are appropriate criteria for highschool admission. You may disagree.
8:49: your concern for black kids is equal to Somerby’s, ie, zip. Nada. Goose egg. Thanks for revealing yourself.
DeleteI meant to ask for specific examples of SCIENCE questions that blacks and latinos would know better than whites and asians, but I left out the word “science.”
DeleteSo I’ll ask it now. Please provide such examples.
I provided examples.
DeleteLook at the admission test — there is your best example.
DeleteGive me some science questions that blacks and latinos would be more likely than whites and asians to answer correctly.
DeleteWalMart is celebrating Pride. Let’s see what the reactonaries do about it.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.axios.com/2023/06/04/chuck-todd-leave-meet-the-press
ReplyDeleteIn a better world this would be Bob’s gig.
I can picture him asking public figures why NAEP scores aren't routinely disaggregated.
DeleteHahaha!!
Delete“In a better world this would be Bob’s gig.” Bullshit. You don’t get this kind of gig handed to you on a silver platter. Did Bob ever work to broaden his audience? Did he put in the work to get there? Did he even try? He didn’t even finish his book about election 2000.
Deletemh, Bob met his fate the day he started going after the wrong people.
DeleteThat’s just bullshit, Cecelia. He didn’t try to become anything or publish anything. He was content to blog, as millions of others do. If you think there was no market for his criticism of the “wrong people”, (how cryptic!), then you are being ridiculous.
DeleteKristi Noem protects South Dakota students from pronouns and drag shows.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.highereddive.com/news/south-dakota-governor-conservative-higher-ed/651596/
It makes sense why so many Democrats are starting to look at Robert F Kennedy Jr's candidacy as an alternative to Biden. Just to appeal to populism.
ReplyDeleteDemocrats are huge fans of polio?
DeleteWho knew?
When Somerby writes these columns about education, he is also virtue signaling. He has no real interest in black kids, white kids, Asian kids, kids, or public schools. Writing solely about naep scores is no different from the media’s obsession with the numbers. It’s a lazy way of not writing about education, but it’s convenient for attacking those less virtuous than himself.
ReplyDelete4:10 & 5:45 - Troll harder.
ReplyDeleteSo what is the plan then? People don't want Biden. At this point Robert F Kennedy Jr's poll numbers are more than respectable. And the rank and file of the Democrats have made clear they don't want Biden. He's barely capable of giving a speech or an interview. What is the point of Biden? Why do we have to be dealing with someone in such a precarious position? It's obvious we have to get Biden out of there. People want someone from outside of the entrenched establishment anyway. RFK Jr. is perfect! But if not him - find someone else because Biden was a dumb idea in the first place and has go to go!
DeleteThe rank and file are concerned about Biden’s age, just as they were in 2020. That doesn’t mean they will vote for RFK or any Republican.
DeleteIt just seems really clear that people want someone that at least appears to be outside of the current entrenched establishment. That's what makes Kennedy so appealing.
DeleteRFK appeals more to Republicans than Dems. He is coming across as a kook.
DeleteMaybe Mark Cuban.
Delete7:56,
DeleteRuPaul is outside the entrenched establishment more than RFK, Jr. Plus, RuPaul isn't a nutball, like RFK, Jr.
I'm surprised the morons you follow don't have you pushing RuPaul as the answer to the nation's issues.
Perhaps, it's time you follow a more sophisticated group of morons.
“Who but Biden do you have?”Who but Trump did the Republicans have in 2020? An incumbent president is rarely challenged by his own party.
DeleteWe can't go on with Biden though.
DeleteWho is “we”? He’s been one of the most effective presidents in a long time.
DeleteHe's not even capable of holding a news conference. It can't be sustained.
DeleteOh no. The President who delivered the lowest unemployment rate in over half a century, is ignoring the media. How will we survive?
DeleteLOL.
And I seem to recall a lot of faux hand wringing at this blog and within the mainstream press about defaulting on the debt. Biden navigated that and averted it like a seasoned pro. Somerby is probably chagrined, because he couldn’t yell “I told you so” to the “hapless” liberals who lost the House. And he hasn’t said a word since.
DeleteThe issue is his age and ability to speak.
DeleteHey, you know what, RFK Jr. ain't exactly Pavorotti.
DeleteBut he is capable of speaking in front of others.
DeleteI just watched President Biden deliver an excellent nationally broadcast prime time address to the nation. Thanks for your concern, Boris.
DeleteI’m voting Republican because I want to be safe from pronouns.
ReplyDeleteAnd those drag queens, the number one existential threat to the American Way.
DeleteNot worthy of you mh. Drag queens may not be the #1 problem, but it's just dumb to make a special effort to expose very young children to something that's age inappropriate.
DeleteIt is a problem — how do you do #1 when you’re in drag?
DeleteTrump is age inappropriate. He curses, he fondles women, he lies. Meanwhile, men dressed up as women…ooh. So traumatizing. What bullshit, David.
DeleteDavid, what’s your preferred pronoun, I or me?
Deletemh -- that comment is also unworthy of you. Trump is personally creepy and objectionable, as you say. But, as you know, that doesn't have anything to do choosing to expose young children to drag queens. Each of those alternatives is independently creepy.
DeleteTrump is a convicted sexual abuser. That goes beyond “creepy”. Way to normalize assault David. And you claim to care about kids! Look at pictures of Trump with Ivanka at age 12-14 and tell me about how much you care about kids.
DeleteDavid, I am sure you remember Milton Berle, who used to dress in drag on his weekly comedy show broadcast across the nation for young and old and everyone in between. Shouldn't it be up to the parents to decide what is appropriate for their own child? Or does that only apply when a astroturf conservative political group is getting books banned?
DeleteDavid,
DeleteThe people who chant "Let's Go Brandon!" in public, aren't as concerned about what children are seeing and hearing, as they would have you believe.
11;56,
DeleteTrump may be a thick-headed moron, but even he has to know there is zero chance he's going to be able to f*** Ivanka, after she ratted him out to the FBI about the stolen government documents he hid at Mar-a-lago.
Oh, you think my comments are unworthy of me, David? Well, I’m angry at the demonization of gay and transgender people by the Republican Party. I have a lot of gay friends, and they are deeply hurt and scared by this. I think the proper response to your “concern” about drag shows is mockery. Good heavens, they might sing some Judy Garland songs.
DeleteI loved Milton Berle in drag when I was a little boy. And now I'm a dirty old man.
DeleteWhy can’t these adults partake of or celebrate drag culture and leave kids out of it?
DeleteNo one cares what they do, till they start bringing kids into it.
Of course you care. Your group wants to overturn Obergefell, so stop with the “it’s all about the kids” bullshit. Besides, drag shows and drag performers aren’t definitionally pornography, except in dirty minds like yours. Like I said, a drag queen might sing a Judy Garland song. Jesus Christ.
DeleteRight, mh, If we keep drag festivities out of the arena of childhood activities, gay marriage will be banned.
DeleteTHAT is a quintessential example of the all or nothing thinking that you’re accusing others of exhibiting.
No. You are the one who said it was about bringing kids into it, whatever that’s supposed to mean. My point is that your crew doesn’t care about the kids. You want to define drag as pornography, end of story, and regulate it as such. That’s been enacted into state law, although the one in TN is on hold. Why you think a man dressing up as a woman is automatically pornographic is a matter for a psychiatrist.
DeleteThe Right doesn't care about children. They care that LGBTQ+ folks might have the same rights they do.
Delete"till they start bringing kids into it"
DeleteFrom the crowd that sends Christmas cards with children under ten posing with AR15s. Merry Fucking Christmas, Cecelia.
The kids are just the pretext wedge to cover their attack on all LBGTQ+.
mh, why aren’t there drag shows in school with women dressed as men, displaying the latest male fashion and dancing around?
DeleteWhy isn’t there an audience for women dressed as businessmen or firemen? Why wouldn’t that be a hoot and fun for the kiddies?
Answer - Because it wouldn’t raise an eyebrow, that’s why. It would be a snooze.
Could it be that this difference is because women and men are different and that fact is what you wish to erase?
Female attire is more decorative than male clothing. It is generally made to display women in a way that we hope is at least as attractive as we can be as individuals. Alluring- when we’re making the effort.
That’s what you wish to change. That men can be girls too is the message you wish to send. Then you pretend to outraged and cuss everyone out when you get some push back from parents.
The sense of entitlement is breathtaking.
Anonymmouse 10am, you have a right to send Christmas cards with pictures of Santa in drag, along with all your male relatives.
DeleteThere will probably be some people who avoid you when they see you coming their way, but people probably do that already.
But I am worried about the children in those Christmas cards, Cecelia. I consider that child abuse. Why shouldn't I be able to pass laws to make that illegal?
DeleteAnonymouse 12:18pm, I assumed that you are actively on board with the people trying to pass such laws.
DeleteWhat? You think you’re entitled to no push back on that as well?
Cecelia,
DeleteAre you going to tell us who told you to be upset about drag queens? Was it Christopher Rufo, the guy you never heard of (LOL), who told you CRT was being taught in elementary schools (also LOL)?
I can't say you are being played by liars, because you actively seek out those lies.
Anonymouse 12:53, Drag queens are people too. Go to their shows. Have a ball. More power to you.
Delete1:16 PM is a RINO.
Delete12:32, you know what Cecelia, I can't think of a single law aimed at preventing your deviant politicians from sending Christmas cards with their children all holding weapons. Can you. I would be opposed. I do find that behavior to be child abuse but I am not their parent.
DeleteAnonymouse 1:46pm, I don’t know why you are not familiar with calls by politicians to ban assault rifles, but that is your problem, not mine.
DeleteAnonymouse2:44pm, in the initial post that was addressed to me by the person making this specious point, the type of weapon was referenced by name.
DeleteIt’s awfully big of anonymices to aver that they would never attempt to ban photography of kids “displaying weapons of all types”. Shoo…I’m relieved.
The failure to communicate here is not a matter of me being dishonest, it’s that you’re not very bright.
I see my last reply to potato head Cecelia was deleted.
DeleteCecelia, here again is what asked you.
I can't think of a single law aimed at preventing your deviant politicians from sending Christmas cards with their children all holding weapons. Can you?
Weapons. Got it? Christmas Cards. Weapons.
The poor abused children.
Then you smugly replied with a total non-sequitur about the push to ban assault rifles, which has jack shit to do with the question. You have completely strayed from the subject, which was your phony concern for the children being exposed to drag.
Anonymouse 5:28pm, so calls for prohibiting the selling of AR15s to the public is a non-sequitur, but banning family Christmas cards of kids holding weapons is a reasonable example of something that anonymices could plausibly call for were they not so libertarian.
DeleteWith an anonymouse like you, anonymices don’t need enemies.
No, dear Cecelia. You're a hypocrite. End of story.
DeleteCecelia,
DeleteAdmittedly, I haven't been in 3rd Grade 30 years. Remind me again, which of you and mh are rubber, and which one is glue?
Bob has not said one word about what has gone on tonight.
ReplyDeleteWhat has gone on tonight?
DeleteCisheteronormativity.
ReplyDelete