MONDAY, JANUARY 29, 2024
Relevant language from Frost: The poem was written about the decision to seek independence from England.
In January 1961, Robert Frost recited the poem from memory at President Kennedy's inauguration. The poem began, and begins, as shown:
The Gift Outright
The land was ours before we were the land’s.
She was our land more than a hundred years
Before we were her people. She was ours
In Massachusetts, in Virginia,
But we were England’s, still colonials,
Possessing what we still were unpossessed by,
Possessed by what we now no more possessed.
In retrospect, Frost was working with a tragically limited version of "we" and "ours."
That said, the people in question were in fact living here in this land, but they were still England's—colonials. As our new White House campaign begins, the relevant lines might be these:
Something we were withholding made us weak
Until we found out that it was ourselves
We were withholding from our land of living,
And forthwith found salvation in surrender.
Such as we were we gave ourselves outright
(The deed of gift was many deeds of war)[...]
There's a tiny bit more to the poem. Those deeds of war were fought against England. But in the formulation of President Lincoln, other wars would come.
As we start this year's campaign, is it possible that there's something we ourselves are withholding? Is there possibly something we're withholding—independent judgment, let's say—which may be making us weak?
Are we listening to the wrong people? Are we adopting the wrong campaign themes?
Are we doing things which may hurt our own alleged interests and values? Have we given ourselves outright to the hope for a suitable outcome? Could it be that we're the colonials, that we're owned by our corporate "thought leaders?"
We'll be exploring these questions as the days roll by. We think our blue tribe pundits have frequently disserved us over the past many years. Your view of this matter may differ.
Let’s start by reevaluating our simpering relationship with Iran.
ReplyDeleteCheck that right wing box bullshit box of the day Cecelia!
DeleteSad when conservative women try to be edgy by making dick jokes.
DeleteAnonymouse 4:32pm, you should check out the news of the day occasionally.
DeleteAnonymouse 4:55pm, that was a mild joke and you’ve been excited since. You’re welcome.
DeleteI watch the news. American soldiers have been killed. Since the President is not a Republican, that’s a reason to insult and degrade him. That’s the way your cop killer party now operates Cecelia. Are we supposed to be impressed?
DeleteAnonymouse 6:40pm, saying that we’re too cozy with Iran is insulting and degrading to Pres. Biden?
DeleteStop being ridiculous. Really. Make an effort.
It’s a stupid premise, how does this show we are too cozy with Iran? What could be your purpose here but to go after Biden? Are you trying to say your lethal rapist clown President pulling out of the Iran deal was a mistake?
DeleteAnonymouse 7:24pm, it shows we’re too cozy with Iran because we’ve cozy with Iran and they’re droning us.
DeleteThe panel on Morning Joe today was all for rethinking our relationship with Iran.
Is that too tough on your grandpa? Is that too strident?
What purpose would I have in criticizing our relationship with Iran other than going after Biden? . They killed Americans you brain dead ridiculous little apparatchik. And you’re more worried that I’ve somehow demeaned Grampy.
DeleteHe’s the president of the U.S. He can survive criticism as to policy now and again.
They joined the army, died in war. And yet you're shocked.
DeleteAnonymouse 11:38pm, they didn’t die in a war. They died in Jordan at the hands of an Iran backed militia group.
DeleteI said we need to get tough on Iran and anonymices are all in a huff and accusing me of demeaning precious fragile Biden while they shrug their shoulders and call an attack on a U.S. base in Jordan just another day in the military.
You soulless clown posse.
Hold onto your seats, folks, I smell Benghazi Patt II coming.
DeleteAnonymouse 7:20am, Mr. Blinken’s. take is even more dour.,
DeleteNow that the economy is chugging along under Bidenomics, it's time to harp on Sleepy Joe's foreign policy.
DeleteBefore any liberals jump in, let's have the "Biden and the Democrats are war hawks" guys duke it out with the "Sleepy Joe is getting our lunch eaten by (fill in the blank, Iran/ China/ Israel, etc.).
Anon 10:52, yes, at least until they find the next 3-letter boogy-man to stir up their base. CRT then DEI, what will it be next?
DeleteThe only page you want everyone on is the one that sounds like it’s a North Korean valentine to Dear Leader.
DeleteWe’re not that sort of people or country, but you go ahead and keep crossing your fingers in hopes that we get there.
We're sorta not a country at all.
DeleteFor all the talk about USA #1, we still view ourselves as individual citizens, who should make decisions in our own best interests, not the nation's.
Cecilia - I'm not sure how we are "cozying up to Iran" or what your suggestion is - get a major war started in the middle east? My understand of some of the background -
Delete1. in 1950's, CIA arranges for overthrow of democratically elected Iranian government and installs shah
2. Shah is autocratic dictator with feared secret police, but is friendly to US and Israel
3. Iranians overthrow shah and new theocratic government is installed, rules country to this day, though country has liberal and conservatives. Religious zealot conservatives have control.(Fortunately, our own huge contingency of religious zealots haven't set up a theocracy in the US yet, not for not trying)
4. Iranian students take US embassy employees hostage - super major issue in 1980, on news constantly. Reagan apparently gets Iranians to hold off releasing hostages until after election, Reagan beats carter becomes president.
5. Iran and Iraq get into a war (don't recall who started it) 0 US takes Saddam Hussein side (very "cozy" with Hussain in this bloody episode), thousands of Iranians and Iraqis get killed and war ends in a stalemate.
6. Iraq invades Kuwait. Hussein then becomes US enemy. Bush Sr. leads coalition to drive Iraq out of Kuwait, but doesn't depose Hussein. Sanctions are imposed on Iraq leading to mass starvation of Iraqi citizens, including lots of children.
6. 9/11/2001 happens - even though all bombers are Saudi Sunni religious zealots, US attacks Iraq - only protest in US comes from certain contingent of liberals. Rationale is to that Iraq has all these "WMDs".
7. Liberal opponents of invasion are excoriated as traitors by "red" tribe.
8. Turns out - no WMD's. But Hussein is ousted and executed, Shia's who are in the majority) take over Iraq government. Kind of a win for iran, with Shias now in charge.
9. Iranians start nuclear program - they say for peaceful purposes. US doesn't trust them, assumes goal is to produce nuclear weapons. (US didn't get Iranian permission to develop massive nuclear arsenal; what legal or moral basis does US have forbidding Iran from doing the same?)
8. Obama gets elected - twice!!! Signs treaty with Iran, will delay their ability to reach point where can develop nuclear weapons, sanctions eased, and also allows for inspections. GOP, not happy about treaty - not clear what their solution is.
Trump, defying all odds, somehow gets elected POTUS. During campaign, trashes opponent Jeb Bush for getting into disastrous Iraq war, sounding much like Al Sharpton at the time when he held rallies opposing it back in 2001. Trump claims he opposed that disastrous war at the time, albeit without there being any record of it. No retractions from "red" tribe of claims that opponents were traitors however.
9. Trump elected - withdraws from (or more accurately reneges on) treaty with Iran -
10. 10/7/23 Hamas atrocious attack on Israel occurs. Israel responds invading Gaza, massive destruction and loss of life - a horror show.
11. Upsets situation in Middle East. There is a danger of war spreading, could expand horror even more.
12 Drone strike from group supported by Iran kill 3 US soldiers and injures many others. Cecila calls for US (Biden) to stop cozying up to Iran.
Question - what is Cecilia's solution here?
Oh, for goodness sakes.
DeleteWell, you could start here, since “simpering relationship” sent you folks into spasms, and since you insist we drag this out (and by all means, observe the date).
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/iran-spy-ring-robert-malley-lee-smith
Let's ask a carpenter from 2 thousand years ago
DeleteThose who live by the sword perish by the sword.
ReplyDelete"Could it be that we're the colonials, that we're owned by our corporate "thought leaders?""
Finally. Of course you are a rube, Bob. Otherwise why identify with an utterly corrupt institution?
ReplyDeleteMystery solved:
"“Israeli military and intelligence officials have concluded that a significant number of weapons used by Hamas in the Oct. 7 attacks and in the war in Gaza came from an unlikely source: the Israeli military itself,” the NYT wrote on Sunday.
According to recent intelligence, a large number of Hamas’ explosive weapons were recycled from undetonated Israeli bombs dropped on Gaza and repurposed for the resistance group’s use.
“Unexploded ordnance is a main source of explosives for Hamas,” Michael Cardash, former deputy head of the Israeli National Police Bomb Disposal Division, said. "
I read this and today's early post as the TDH "Ur-Post." It asks us to search inside for the deepest grounding for our positions on all the diverse policy issues on which we differ with Republicans, in the hope of finding ground that is commonly held with, or at least harder to despise by, and could be shared by, those we find ourselves needing to oppose tactically on policy.
ReplyDeleteThe role of media is central: growing up in a home playing Fox non-stop conditions one to start from, rather than arrive at, an understanding of Democrats as bad guys. Objecting to the same BS on MSNBC is only demanding a more intelligent, consistent, powerful, and effective liberal message machine.
It makes sense to organize campaign messaging - indeed, party platforming - starting from the broadest, deepest principle(s), before doing the necessary work of elaborating policy and parrying the others side's moves. It comes down to being able to say in the simplest terms: I stand for X and this is why. Do you see it differently? Tell me why.
I think he is asking us if we are not withholding what is most important for us to acknowledge and to say, and act in all respects as if we actually believe. If I could say just one thing to a Trump voter - hoping to make a difference in their thinking - what would that be? Something tells me it wouldn't be my opinion of him/her.
Even if your party actually stood for some principles, I strongly suspect that in a two-party system it would still be way more efficient to demonize the other party than to present any positive program. That's just the way it is.
DeleteI'm not against negative messaging (not demonization), especially near to the election - it moves the needle. But long-term, to build a broader base, I don't see how to do it, without a core set of clear principles not only to be preached but also demonstrated in behavior.
DeleteIn a two-party system you don't need a broader base. You need 51% (or 270 electoral votes).
DeleteAnd if you get 52%, that means that you wasted money, or made unnecessary promises to the public, which may get you in trouble with your sponsors ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQ4PlOrXZ40 ).
@4:59 - Do you really believe that? Is it sufficient to win a Presidential election, and fail to win enough seats in Congress to enact legislation or appoint justices, or fail to gain enough representation in state governments to safeguard anything achieved at the federal level? To say nothing of a society subjected to such paralysis, and the torment of the 49% ruled or merely stymied by the 51%? Recourse to principles is relief from brute tribalism, offering the possibility of narrowing the scope of conflict. Or am I missing the joke?
Delete@2:37 IMO one reason demonization works is that our media is sub-standard. If we had more competent, unbiased media, then a price would be paid for dishonest attacks.
Delete@7:30 PM
DeleteThe winner-takes-all election system leads to a two-party system, and in a two-party system, yes, I believe what I wrote @2:37 PM and @4:59 PM that's the logic imposed by the model.
Notice the current situation: roughly the 50-50 senate, 50-50 congress, 50-50 presidential polls. Do you think this is accidental? What's the chance of that?
In a system with proportional representation, however, it would be a completely different logic.
@2:30AM
DeleteWe are stuck with this system, sadly. So what do we do now? One party is marginally better, and given the binary choice, I choose it. Lives depend on it. Even Chomsky acknowledges that progressives who failed to vote for Clinton in 2016 made a bad mistake. Now what? I say push to make my side better. How do you see it?
DeleteChomsky said it in 2016, before anyone could know anything anything about the Trump presidency. And about a year ago I heard him saying that Trump is the only American politician who could stop the war in Ukraine. But then he is, what, 95 y.o. now?
Just like Nostradamus. If you make enough predictions, some will seem true in retrospect.
Delete@9:34AM
DeleteBut what now? How do you see it?
It is what it is.
DeleteI would say a push to make our side better is a waste of time. We have been triangulated. The leadership of our side is basically the same as neocons in the Bush II era, following through on a plan to expand U.S. reach into other countries and crush threats to American interests through force. There's not a single thing we can do or say about it. Because their response would be "where else you going to go?" "Who else are you going to vote for, Trump?".
DeleteWe have been triangulated. The only way is a third party based on class interests.
May I can ask you - " push to make our side better" ... how?
@11:12AM - Ah, so you said from the start!
DeleteTo you, and to Rufus, who both make valid points about crippling problems we face, I would only offer that "the party" and "the leadership of our side" comprise many people representing many interests, some of whom are strongly principled, others less so. And things change, for better and worse.
I happen to think pushing for a third party fails for reasons alluded to by @11:12AM. Pushing to change either of the two sides can be effective, as history demonstrates (again, and again, for better and worse). How? Nothing easy . . . just talking, voting, organizing, learning, suffering, thinking, teaching . . . blogging, commenting, listening, etc. Various sorts of trying. I don't have anything better. Sorry.
DeletePersonally, I'm an introvert. What is "crippling problems we face" to you, it's just certain characteristics of the environment I (briefly) exist in. Adapting is easier (and, I think, wiser) than "pushing to change". See Ecclesiastes. Or something.
Agree with 12:28 re various sorts of trying leading to differing outcomes sometimes and 12:50 about adapting.
DeleteRufus,
DeleteAre you suggesting i shouldn't listen to "the Others", when they tell me the leadership of the Democratic Party are Communists and Marxists, who are losing our freedom to China and Iran? Because that doesn't sound anything at all like neocons in the Bush II era planning to expand U.S. reach into other countries and crush threats to American interests through force.
Thanks to both of you! I feel better adapted already!
DeleteOops, thank you to Rufus and @12:50PM.
DeleteChomsky says to vote for the center every national election. It's not significant that he did so again. I love the guy but logically speaking it carries no meaning to quote him on this. He is no exceptional case study.
DeleteThe real success Biden has right now is from working with the center left to defeat Trump. Spitting on the left now is just what the Republicans want and the liberals on this comment section are already falling in that trap as is pelosi.
The protest worked. Liberals saw what happens and they paid the hard price.
Charles Littlejohn, who stole and leaked the tax returns of Donald Trump and thousands of others, has been sentenced to five years in prison.
ReplyDeleteHis family will be well taken care of.
DeleteDo you hate that they were leaked or that they reveal what an infantile sucker you have been about Trump? We should know the President’s tax records and Democratic Presidents have had no problem making them available.
DeleteIf only we had Trump's tax returns. That would've been the end of him.
DeleteTrump should have released them voluntarily, like every other candidate does.
DeleteOh, poor Cecelia is worried about the Jan 6th hostages.
DeleteAnonymouse 6:42pm, no, Julian Assange.
DeleteWhat is it that attracts you to rapists?
DeleteYour worried about Putin’s pal who helped seat Trump?
DeleteAnonymouse 7:14pm, what
Deleteattracts you to feigning obtuseness? When not feigning it, you’re engaged in actually being it.
I know it’s the polls that have anonymices in a more sour mood than usual, because politics is your religion, your history, your lineage, your homeland, your mother, your father, your everything. I know this and I feel for you. When I’m not chortling.
Has Assange said when he's gong to release the hacked Republican National Committee files he's been hiding from the public for almost 8 years?
DeleteActually my range of interests is pretty wide, though I don’t do sports. Since you dodged it once, would you like to weigh in on the Republican contention that the jailed Jan 6 rioters are “hostages?” And, while I am quite terrified of a Trump victory, I do not worry or even follow the political junk food of polls. Or are we going to have another Red Wave?
Delete“ politics is your religion” and “the polls have us in a sour mood”? You’ve just described Bob Somerby, who seems to spend every waking moment fretting about the polls and the impending “disaster.” The commenters are just responding to his political and poll obsession.
DeleteIf you talk about the polls, you can ignore the effects of political policies.
DeleteThat goes back even further than ignoring the repercussions of GWB's Iraq War, because he got the votes to wage it.
Kevin Drum thinks he knows how we plan to campaign:
ReplyDeletehttps://jabberwocking.com/baiting-trump/
Steven Lubet looks at one aspect of the election:
ReplyDeletehttps://thehill.com/opinion/judiciary/4434430-trumps-ballot-removal-cases-hinge-on-these-key-questions/
America isn't a democracy yet. It has some structures in place that democracies do have, like libraries, regular elections, and people's organizations like unions and parties. But the decisions made by the government are a coin flip between the middle class and the upper class. The politician only has so many chances to turn down donations to the campaign before running out of money, and this selects for the most upper class people to run for office in the first place. In effect, the time management of politicians is poor because people are poor, too poor to run for office. The government has to create seed campaign money for every citizen who needs it and can ask for a campaign donation from the state, with matching grants from other donors. This discourages political action committees from loudly speaking for identity politics and giving people fuel for culture war rage, and focuses the time of the public servants on spending time with voters, not donors.
ReplyDeleteCampaign finance reform combined with sustained involvement by people themselves in the everyday choices of their state are what democracy would look like in America, if we had it.
You don’t think there’s a difference between the middle class and the upper class? Go back to school.
DeleteThe middle class can get class consciousness but often just goes along with whatever scares them that week
DeleteNikki Haley says we need the border deal.
ReplyDeleteThe Wall Street Journal Editorial Board says we need the border deal.
DeleteSenator James Lankford (R-OK) — very conservative — says we need the border deal.
DeleteSomerby likes to romanticize things like war and colonialsim. That's why this poem appeals to him. I find it opaque and difficult to apply to history as it occurred, even the Revolution. Perhaps Somerby prefers opaque lines because he can superimpose whatever meaning he wants onto them.
ReplyDeleteAnonymouse 6:33pm, I’m imposing the “Mr. Biden’s Wars” trope in Bob’s honor.
DeleteI know how Bob plans to campaign: go as easy on Trump as possible so it doesn’t make his friends and neighbors feel bad.
ReplyDeleteTrump sells collective narcissism, tribalism. As much as that word has been cheapened by the media, that's exactly what he is.
DeleteFinish the sentence... Feel bad and then... Cry? Go for a long walk? Vote for fascists? Who can say what they'll do.
DeleteMost Dems believe that not only are liberal policies better than conservative policies, but liberals are generally behave better than conservatives. Bob is honest enough to actually check the latter belief by looking at the behavior of liberal and conservative news organs. He doesn't always like what he finds.
ReplyDeleteI like reading the Daily Howler because of Bob's honesty. OTOH Some liberal critics call Bob a conservative for the same reason.
David
DeleteWhat's a "liberal news organ"? Do you mean "Mother Jones Magazine"?
I have seen some conservatives behaving with decency and integrity recently, but they swiftly get booted out of your party of barbarians, David.
DeleteAmerica has two business parties and no working class party
Delete