MONDAY, FEBRUARY 12, 2024
And in the Soviet camps: No people are uninteresting! Or so Yevtushenko said.
Some will say that he was putting the best face on the situation.
At any rate, the title of the poem in question is rendered, quite simply, as People. In translation, the poem starts like this:
People
No people are uninteresting.
Their fate is like the chronicle of planets.
Nothing in them is not particular,
and planet is dissimilar from planet.
And if a man lived in obscurity
making his friends in that obscurity
obscurity is not uninteresting.
Obscurity is not uninteresting! As we've noted in the past, the poem continues from there.
To each his world is private,
and in that world one excellent minute.
And in that world one tragic minute.
These are private.
In any man who dies there dies with him
his first snow and kiss and fight.
It goes with him.
There are left books and bridges
and painted canvas and machinery.
Whose fate is to survive.
But what has gone is also not nothing:
by the rule of the game something has gone.
Not people die but worlds die in them.
Whom we knew as faulty, the earth’s creatures
Of whom, essentially, what did we know?
There's a bit more to it. You can see Yevtushenko's full poem, though in translation, simply by clicking here.
We first encountered People in Deschooling Society, a 1971 book about education reform by Ivan Illich. We didn't take great interest in the book's principal analyses, but this line has never left us:
"But what has gone is also not nothing..."
For reasons we've never understood, that double negative formulation has stayed within us, very deeply, ever since the day we first read it.
"No people are uninteresting?" So Yevtushenko alleged!
He was writing within a Soviet Union which was struggling to emerge from the purges, the famines and the mass deaths of the Stalin era. Presumably, within the borders of this poem, the people whose worlds were fated to die within them were, in millions of cases, the victims of Stalin's purges.
Some say Yevtushenko was admirably courageous during that turbulent era. Others say he wasn't brave enough.
For us, he's the Soviet, then Russian poet who wrote People—though we've read it only in translation. (We've seen other translation of his poem which wouldn't have caught our ear.)
Plainly, Yevtushenko was writing with individual people in mind.
Then too, there's also "Us the People"—our struggling human species. We're currently an eight-billion member global demographic.
Within the western world, the first great account of how we people behave comes in the Greek war poem, the Iliad. It's a poem of war and of conquest and, literally from its first page on, of sexual subjugation.
According to the leading authority. it's "often regarded as the first substantial piece of European literature." In the 1990 Robert Fagles translation, Book One (of twenty-four) starts like this:
The Great Gathering of Armies
Rage—Goddess. sing the rage of Peleus' son Achilles,
murderous, doomed, that cost the Achaeans countless losses,
hurling down to the House of Death so many sturdy souls,
great fighters' souls, but made their bodies carrion,
feasts for the dogs and birds,
and the will of Zeus was moving toward its end...
And the will of Zeus was moving toward its end!
The Iliad is a poem of the war which was fought, for roughly ten years, on the wide plains which lay outside the towering walls of Troy.
In theory, the lives which were lost in that siege were "not nothing." That said, also this:
Quite a few of the lives which were lost in that siege were lost due to "the rage of Peleus' son"—due to Achilles' great anger. Just to bring us up to speed, but also with apologies for the subject matter, here is that leading authority's thumbnail account of the origin of this ten-year siege, and of Achilles' destructive rage:
Iliad
[...]
[T]he rage of Achilles—its cause. its course and its disastrous consequences—is the theme of the poem, the mainspring of the plot.
Chryses, a priest of Apollo, whose daughter has been carried off by the Achaeans in one of their raids, comes to the camp to ransom her. But she has been assigned, in the division of the booty, to the king who commands the Achaean army, Agamemnon, and he refuses to give her up. Her father prays for help to Apollo, who sends a plague that devastates the Achaean camp.
Achilles, leader of the Myrmidons. one of the largest contingents of the Achaean army, summons the chieftains to an assembly. There they are told by the prophet Calchas that the girl must be returned to her father. Agamemnon has to give her up, but demands compensation for his loss.
Achilles objects: let Agamemnon wait until more booty is taken. A violent quarrel breaks out between the two men, and Agamemnon finally announces that he will take recompense for his loss from Achilles. in the form of the girl Briseis, Achilles' share of the booty. Achilles represses an urge to kill Agamemnon and withdraws from the assembly, threatening to leave for home, with all his troops, the next day.
And so on from there, as Achilles sulks in his tents. Sexual conquest was part of the culture, much as it is today.
Within the realm of the Iliad, those events occur in the final weeks of the ten-year siege of Troy. For us today, in our present time, a siege of the Biden White House is now underway.
A gathering of armies is in the field—armies from our struggling nation's prevailing red and blue camps.
In the end, the Trojan army was fated to succumb to the Achaeans' siege of Troy. For those of us in our own blue tribe, it should be apparent by now that the forces of the other tribe's army may prevail in this year's siege of the Biden White House.
Or not! We can't tell you how this year's siege will end, though we're less sanguine with each passing day. But it seems to us that we might all gain by putting the current siege in a wider context—in a context derived from the worlds of the poets, Russian and ancient Greek.
The Achaean forces prevailed. So might the forces of Candidate Donald J. Trump. For ourselves, we disagree with the assessments of that candidate's voters. But then, they disagree with ours!
No people are uninteresting, Yevtushenko alleged. We'll recommend that moral perspective as we continue, through the course of this week, to take an early look at some of the armies already arrayed in the field.
A wide array of cultural morés were notably different back then. But are our instincts as humans, as a very large mass of people, actually all that different?
For ourselves, we believe in the thrust of that Soviet poem. Also, we believe in the power of the Iliad to offer a look at our lives.
Should we try to place this year's events in a wider human perspective? For us as people, it seems to us that that might be a smart thing to do.
Tomorrow and all week: A first look at our blue battalions. More from the red tribe's camps.
ReplyDeleteSomerby is no liberal. And that means I must spam his blog, day and night.
I am Corby.
Fake.
DeleteSteve Ostrow has died.
ReplyDeleteSorry for your loss. Was he a close friend of yours?
DeleteNot a close friend, no. If you want to know about him, read this:
Deletehttps://amp.smh.com.au/national/nsw/steve-ostrow-trailblazer-in-us-and-sydney-gay-scenes-20240205-p5f2ip.html
His friends appreciate your respectful announcement of his death.
DeleteWe're all slowly dying from the hysterical commercial driven society and taking a moment to remember this happens in literal ways is a blessing even if delivered by what's probably a skinhead in his mom's basement or a Saudi troll farm
DeleteNow that we know what the Iliad is about, we can see that it’s not a great book, it’s crap.
ReplyDelete"He was writing within a Soviet Union which was struggling to emerge from the purges, the famines and the mass deaths of the Stalin era. Presumably, within the borders of this poem, the people whose worlds were fated to die within them were, in millions of cases, the victims of Stalin's purges."
ReplyDeleteYou seem to be amazingly ignorant of history, Bob.
Nearly 30 million Soviet people died in the war. Most of them civilians. That's what the Soviet Union was struggling to emerge from. Probably already had emerged by the time this poem was written. And certainly, compared to the war, "the purges, the famines" were remote, minor unpleasantries.
They were major unpleasantries, and they made it harder to win the war.
DeleteMinor, compared to the war.
DeleteTheir land reform (collectivization), that led to the famine, was necessary for the industrialization, which was necessary for winning the war.
The purges, I don't know. But then, purging the top layers of the establishment can't be all too harmful, really.
Inconvenient people were disappearing off Russian streets long after the wars and they still are disappearing. Decades later, families were still suffering the after-effects of what Solzhenitsyn called the “sewage disposal system” plight of their relatives, as were entire regions of that country and its satellite countries.
DeleteI never heard of people disappearing off Russian streets long after "the wars" (the War?). On the contrary, all the victims of political repressions (purges) of the Stalin period were freed and rehabilitated in the late 1950s - early 60s. Khrushchev's Thaw.
DeleteAre you implying that Yevtushenko, the official Soviet poet, wrote this poem about these mythical disappearing people?
Anonymouse 12:49pm, as object lessons, people were arrested off the streets for attending church in the modern USSR They were arrested for having politically incorrect literature or for making statements deemed pro-western in public settings. Writers and artists were jailed and exiled. Jews were often arrested for trying to immigrate.
DeleteAnonymouse 12:39pm, I’m not implying anything about the poem. I’m flatly stating that you know nothing of life in the mid-20th century USSR.
DeleteCecelia, Jews weren't arrested for trying to immigrate. They were arrested for trying to emigrate.
DeleteMy comment addressed the post above, the alleged Yevtushenko's thinking; your opinion of the USSR is completely irrelevant.
DeleteHowever: 'being arrested' and 'disappearing' are two completely different things. People get arrested in every country on earth.
Also, I highly doubt that a single person was ever arrested for attending church in the modern USSR. You saying this indicates that it's you who knows nothing of life in the mid-20th century USSR. Indeed, members of the Communist party (or the Communist Youth organization) could have certain troubles at work or university. But arrested, no. Same thing with trying to emigrate (not 'immigrate'): people would lose their good jobs or get expelled from a university (something like being 'cancelled' in the US these days), but not arrested.
What you doubt carries the same weight as what she vaguely remembers reading once. You're both full of it.
Delete"We first encountered People in Deschooling Society, a 1971 book about education reform by Ivan Illich. "
ReplyDeleteThis explains why Somerby has never quoted any other poem by Yevtushenko. It seems likely this poem appears in the first chapter of the Illich book itself, since Somerby appears to never read beyond that in anything he quotes here, even Willa Cather's My Antonia. If he had, he would know how that book ends, what becomes of Antonia, and then write about something beyond the way the non-immigrant town boys lusted after the immigrant girls, which comes early in the book.
Notice how Somerby only quotes the beginning of the Illiad and never The Odyssey, which I found to be much more interesting. Books are meant to be read all the way through.
Nobody is impressed. Even Homer is looking down from heaven disappointed one of his fans is such a snob.
Delete"And so on from there, as Achilles sulks in his tents. Sexual conquest was part of the culture, much as it is today."
ReplyDeleteIn what way does Somerby think that sexual conquest is part of today's culture?
Earth to Somerby -- it has been outlawed by the United Nations and is not allowed by the rules of war. That was also true in WWII, when Soviet soldiers were accused of raping German women, and when Nazi soldiers were accused of raping women in the countries they invaded. It is still true in Ukraine. And the rapes by Hamas are not part of Middle Eastern culture. They are an abberation that Israel has been punishing, they are the justification for the war against Hamas (coupled with the killings that accompanied those rapes).
The elimination of violence against women is a major program of the United Nations and our own government has laws prohibiting violence against women, including domestic violence.
So, Somerby you asshole, how exactly is raping women part of modern warfare or part of any "culture" on our planet? How is it part of YOUR natural order?
10:47 - Bizarre. You tell us that rapes are happening today in the wars in Ukraine and Israel, but insist that rapes are not part of modern warfare. I’m confused.
DeleteThose rapes happening today in warfare (or terrorist attacks) are outlawed. That means they are explicitly not permitted in our culture. I explained that pretty carefully. Are you perhaps over 80 yo?
DeleteAnonymouse 12:00pm, it’s obvious that youre trying to back someone into suggesting that by your argument racism no longer exists in our culture (when it obviously does), but you’re not going to make a salient point with that crap either.
DeleteRacism obviously exists? Give some examples. Because, when people point out the disproportionality of police encounters between black and white, or the existence of a gap in naep scores, and argue that these stem from racism, Somerby and others are quick to denounce that as woke.
DeleteViolations of the rules of war are tried and the leaders who committed them can be punished as war criminals. That has happened and the perpetrators were sentenced and imprisoned. Putin has been accused of war crimes in Ukraine.
DeleteThe International Criminal Court judges those accused of war crimes:
https://www.icc-cpi.int/about/the-court
"Are you perhaps over 80 yo?"
DeleteNo, I'm not, but you're ageist asshole.
And, BTW, your apparent inability to distinguish between what "does" exist and what "should" exist makes me wonder about your mental acuity.
DeletePiper, it seems a tad ironic for you to call a commenter “ageist” when Somerby does nothing but tell us how old and feeble Biden is and how he’s going to lose. When anyone points out the good things Biden has done, they are mocked for burying their blue tribal head in the sand.
DeleteIf no people are uninteresting, does that include women? Are women "people" too? If so, what justifies raping them (in or out of war)? Would Yevtushenko have approved of sexual conquest on the grounds that women are uninteresting or is this Somerby's personal construct? Does the word "people" apply only to men?
ReplyDelete10:50 - You read Somerby’s post as approving and justifying the raping of women? You’re a crackpot.
DeleteNormalizing, by saying that sexual conquest (as the Greeks practiced it) exists in our culture when it does not. It is explicitly excluded.
DeleteI have heard Somerby write a whole essay about how our culture approves of sexual relationships between older men and much younger women, calling on Bogey and Lauren Bacall as an example. He also said that the mothers approved Roy Moore because he was a "catch" and he talked about the legality of very young teens being married off by parents in certain states, as a defense of Roy Moore.
"UNICEF USA, a member of the National Coalition to End Child Marriage, is working alongside other NGO partners to end marriage below the age of 18 within the U.S. and to repeal loopholes and exceptions that may promote the practice."
"Girls Not Brides members are a diverse network of civil society organisations working to end child marriage around the world. "
https://www.girlsnotbrides.org/
"Unchained At Last is a survivor-led nonprofit organization dedicated to ending forced and child marriage in the United States through direct services and systems change."
https://www.unchainedatlast.org/
"VOW for Girls is a growing global movement that partners with brands, individuals and the wedding industry to end the international child marriage crisis."
https://www.vowforgirls.org/
"Unchained At Last and Equality Now have convened the National Coalition to End Child Marriage in the United States to bring together organizations and individuals determined to end child marriage in the U.S.
The mission of the coalition is to end all marriage before age 18 in the U.S., without exception. "
https://endchildmarriageus.org/
You really need to stop defending this stuff that Somerby writes.
Yep. Crackpot.
Delete"Or not! We can't tell you how this year's siege will end, though we're less sanguine with each passing day. But it seems to us that we might all gain by putting the current siege in a wider context—in a context derived from the worlds of the poets, Russian and ancient Greek."
ReplyDeleteI wonder if Somerby has any idea how many more poets there are besides these two. Some of those he hasn't read might have written a better ending for Biden. Some poets have deplored war. Somerby once quoted The Death of the Ball Turret Gunner, an anti-war poem. If he had taken that poem to heart, he might be using a different metaphor to describe this year's election, a non-military one that is more relevant to the peaceful transfer of power via delibetation, wise consideration, voting and electing a leader who is NOT going to subject any woman to sexual conquest and will focus on improving our country, preventing climate change, achieving civil rights, and building our society -- building all the things that war tends to tear down.
We do not need a war-time consiglieri (to quote The Godfather, which is Trump's dominant metaphor). We do not need a dictator. We need to take this election more seriously than those looking at Biden's picture and calling him old. We need voters who take their duty seriously and will decide based on our nation's needs, not a bizarre obsession with Greek names and a time when people threw wooden spears at each other.
Romanticizing war is a very very very bad idea.
Of these ridiculous, performative, malign, and petty posts, meant only to be contentious, the one at 10:50am is the stupidest.
DeleteLookee lookee, Cecelia is volunteering to be sexually conquested! What is the point of pretending to be a woman on the internet, if you can't also pretend to like rape?
DeleteNo, silly, Somerby is not excusing rape. He is normalizing it, so he can claim that what Hamas did was no big deal, because look at Troy. Grab some context! If it was OK for the Greeks, it is still OK and why shouldn't the current Middle East still be raping hapless women? After all, no people are uninteresting, or words to that effect.
DeleteAnonymouse 11:09am, no sane person buys into the notion that quoting the Iiiad is tantamount to endorsing rape and enslavement from yesterday or today. That’s just your braindead troll beat.
DeleteNo one here cares if Somerby quotes the Illiad. He does it all the time without complaint. This is the endorsement of rape that I am talking about:
Delete"Sexual conquest was part of the culture, much as it is today."
Sexual conquest is not part of anyone's culture today. It is an illegal, evil, abhorrent act. This idea that because evil people engage in sex-trafficking that it is part of culture, is despicable, outrageous, wrong, stupid, words fail me how crap it is of Somerby to have written that. And I say that as a woman who does not consider herself a commodity to be won or bartered or sold or anything else. I am a person. But Somerby thinks selling women is part of our culture when it is proscribed, forbidden, not OK, and you call me a braindead troll for pointing that out.
We fought a civil war to end slavery. We are still fighting to end abuse of women. We as a culture, a world culture (judging by UN sentiments), are fighting to eradicate the abuse of anyone, including women, children, poor people, elderly people, anyone weaker than the bullies who think might makes right.
And you pop up to defend Somerby in this. You are the person who needs to take inventory of "her" soul. And stuff like this, which you said of your own free will, is why some of us here do not believe you are female.
Anonymouse 11:44am, Sexual conquest is most certainly a part of our culture and we see it every day in what is being pushed in the media and most certainly within the corporate advertising world.
DeleteEven with the weekend, planning and ChatGPS you anonymices can’t do better than this dreck today?
Good attempt to redefine “conquest” but it doesn’t fit either context. Don’t play stupid. It reflects poorly on other fake women.
DeleteKeep sexual conquest part of our culture! Vote for Trump! Make America great again! Keep America rapey forever!
DeleteAnonymouse 11:58am, I didn’t redefine the term. Sexual conquest is about power and part of that equation is use of sex on either side in order to derive power.
DeleteBeyond bizarre. Asshole pretends to see Somerby’s posts as glorifying rape, thinks he’s bravely standing up for women with his crackpot comments, then tells a real woman (a) she’s fake and (b) wants to be raped. Despicable.
DeleteWe don’t actually know Cecelia is a woman. We assume she is. I personally assume so, but I have no way of knowing. I also assume she’s 5’10”, tall for a woman but not unheard of.
DeleteBeyond bizarre is Dogface assuming that the original commenter is male, assuming Cecelia is female with no evidence beyond her own claim, and says anyone said Cecelia wants to be raped. No one here said that.
Delete@12:05 has it right. Trump IS trying to make sexual conquest OK, both with his own behavior, his talk about women, and his telling Putin to do whatever the hell he wants (Putin may be feeling horny and he has certainly been using rape in his attack on Ukraine, among other war crimes). But notice that Trump lost his defense against E.Jean Carroll and has to pay up a lot of money, because rape is not OK in our culture.
DeleteBut it may become so, if Trump is reelected, because boy is he pissed about that loss, and his next term is about revenge (by his own admission).
It wasn't enough to take away abortion rights and require women to have their rapists' babies. Trump wants Matt Gaetz and Roy Moore and Jeffrey Epstein to be vindicated.
Anonymous 12:12pm, for all intents and purposes I have no gender here. I’m words typed on a screen and have never made that sort of an appeal to authority. Call me Buba if you wish.
DeleteCall her "Cecelia", or call her "late for dinner", just don't call her "someone making good faith arguments".
DeleteWe didn't fight a civil war to "end slavery".
DeleteMaybe you didn't, but everyone else did.
Delete"And I say that as a woman who does not consider herself a commodity to be won or bartered or sold or anything else." No worries in that regard.
DeleteWhat kind of person introduces sexual conquest into an essay just to get a rise out of any random women who might be reading his blog. A huge asshole. Because, after all, it isn't a joke (even in Trojan times). And that same person thinks he has moral standing to criticize the "comedians" on Fox News, when they may have said some crude things about poopypants but they never tried to normalize sexual conquest by calling it part of today's culture. Normalizing incontinence in the elderly is bad enough. Most old people smell good and do not shit their pants.
ReplyDeleteYep. Crackpot.
Delete"A gathering of armies is in the field—armies from our struggling nation's prevailing red and blue camps."
ReplyDeleteBy equating Troy with the White House, perhaps Somerby is going to argue that it is finally OK for Trump to rape Ivanka? That makes more sense than two old men pointing fingers at each other over which is older, while one is plainly crazy and the other is doing as good a job as FDR did shortly before his death. Which one is Achilles in Somerby's own warped mind?
Just because the Illiad is an old old poem, doesn't make Achilles or Agamemnon themselves old guys. Does it matter to the context of the poem that no one then was living much beyond age 35 and democracy hadn't been invented yet? Just asking for a friend.
Anonymouse 11:08am, that damn Homer. Such a sexist.
DeleteHomer was resting in peace in antiquity until Somerby exhumed him to make his own sexist comments.
DeleteAnonymouse 11:44am, it would be wonderful to know that the sexual conquest of females was no longer a thing in the world… if we all didn’t understand that tomorrow you’ll be pulling your hair out while making the opposite claim.
DeleteHomer was of course a sexist.
DeleteMaybe the problem with your understanding is that you don't know what the word "culture" means:
Deleteculture definition:
1. the arts and other manifestations of human intellectual achievement regarded collectively
2. the customs, arts, social institutions, and achievements of a particular nation, people, or other social group
It is not what people do, everything that happens, but those things that are encoded in the traditions and values and beliefs and actions of a society. Murder happens in all nearly cultures, but it is not part of the culture of any society. It is universally an evil that is outlawed and punished. Slavery used to be part of some cultures (including our own) but is now forbidden everywhere. Similarly, sexual conquest, ownership of women, domestic violence that turns women into slaves. It is a goal of the United Nations to eradicate that worldwide and it is expicitly NOT part of American culture. It is a crime against women that is punished under law.
So, Somerby is wrong about this. That he would propose this is so offensive that it must be deliberately intended to annoy those who care about women's rights.
You cannot defend this. It is obvious to all readers here. Whether you agree with him or not is a different matter. We know that too many conservatives are neanderthals, but you should also know that it isn't cute or funny or endearing, it is not part of God's teachings, it is endorsing a crime and that puts you guys beyond the pale among civilized people. But Bill Maher may still have you on his show.
Neanderthals may have been very nice.
DeleteA neanderthal living among neanderthals may be nice but a neanderthal living among modern people, not so nice.
DeleteAnonymouse 12:12pm, no, I get your deeply consequential point that because rape is outlawed therefore sexual conquest is not a part of our culture per se.
DeleteAs profound as that argument is, I think there’s a pertinent one to made than in all the years from Homer to Epstein, conquest, sexual and otherwise, persist in all cultures.
What you don’t understand is utter triviality you make of such things all in the effort to troll a blog. You are clowns.
Epstein? Ah, I recall one Donald j Trump partying it up with Epstein surrounded by young women in a rather infamous video. I mean, speaking of sexual subjugation. But by all means, let’s pity him, shall we? Epstein was “interesting”, as I’m sure Yevtushenko would say.
DeleteIf you are saying that because people break the rules of their society, we should abandon all rules and just admit that we are uncivilized, I strongly disagree with you. Our society is more livable for all when people follow the rules that are made to protect them from sociopaths (the name we call people who ignore rules for their own self-interest).
DeleteAbuse of women and girls in our current society is not a trivial thing. Many of us care about it, not just me. I care and it doesn't matter to me whether it is rich men doing it or poor ones. Trump is as much of a criminal as Jeffrey Epstein. The idea that our country would consider reelecting a rapist is upsetting to me.
When you call those who care about this "clowns," you demonstrate your own lack of concern about it. There are women who identify with men when it comes to sexual politics, or you may be male (who really knows?), but that doesn't make my concern less genuine.
You think I am raising this point because I want to criticize Somerby. Perhaps I am criticizing Somerby because he demonstrates harmful attitudes towards girls and women (not to mention his defense of segregationists in Boston, his statement that racism is no longer a thing, his ageism against Biden, and his lying about his politics). There is plenty to dislike about Somerby. But I am not using this issue to attack Somerby -- I am attacking Somerby because he so often expresses sexist attitudes toward women. Wait until Trump's next trial starts and Somerby again tells us that Stormy Daniels is a con artist and grifter.
You're an idiot. Claiming, as a factual matter, that sexual conquest exists in a culture, is not endorsing it. According to your logic, if you claim that racism exists in a culture, then you endorse it. You're an idiot.
DeleteRacism certainly still exists in society. It's the main reason we have Republicans in Congress.
DeleteWhat the fuck is wrong with you
DeleteI am confused. Is Nikki Haley supposed to be Briseis or is she the priest's daughter, the other one, the one WHO DOESN'T EVEN DESERVE TO HAVE A NAME in this telling of the ever so important events in the lives of men.
ReplyDeleteAnonymouse 11:35am, Elise Stefanik is Briseis. She could hold her own.
DeleteDo you call this holding her own?
Delete"When Achilles's son, Pyrrhus, arrives in Troy, he attempts to rape Briseis, thinking she belonged to Achilles. She tries to kill him and swims into the ocean, but he hits her with his spear, and she drowns."
Anonymouse 11:46am, yes. She fought and attempted to kill him.
DeleteAs with biological female athletes facing challenges from men in women’s swimwear, she fought hard, but ultimately didn’t prevail.
Do you imagine that any woman does not want to kill someone who is raping her?
DeleteAgain, how did she "hold her own" against someone who was not only bigger but also armed? She died. I don't call that "holding her own" and the disparity is why there are rules against the strong preying on the weak in civilized countries.
Elise Sefanik is Medusa.
DeleteCecelia thinks swimming and rape are comparable.
DeleteYou have to immediately go to the transphobic bit of ugliness, don't you Cec? You're just a nasty little shit, Cec.
DeleteAnonymouse 12:26pm, are swim competitions just synchronized swimming?
DeleteAnonymouse 1:12pm, I’m not little.
DeleteBut you’re petty.
DeleteCecelia didn't take exception to the "nasty" or "shit" part. It was just the size she felt compelled to correct. She's a 5' 10" turd, and don't you forget it!
DeleteWomen are uninteresting to me.
ReplyDeleteAnd vice versa I'm sure.
DeleteYes. I was uninteresting to them first.
DeleteYou’re probably not interesting to anyone, 12:18, whatever you may currently think.
DeleteYou don't have to be mean, @5:07.
Delete12:18 is interesting to me. But not women.
DeleteThe truth hurts sometimes, 5:12.
Delete5:13 is the first individual who has ever thought I’m interesting. Probably a bot.
Deletewe bots are gentle lovers
DeleteWomen whine and whine all day about sexism and Somerby being an asshole. That's all do.
ReplyDeleteI was surprised to see a "Kennedy for President" ad on the super bowl. One recent poll showed that in a 3 person race, Kennedy would take a lot more votes away from Biden than from Trump. Trump would win easily. I suspect Kennedy as a third party candidate would have the same impact even if Biden is replaced by some other Democratic candidate. How can the Dems win if Kennedy is committed to running?
ReplyDeleteIMO the Dems best shot is to dump Biden and make Kennedy their candidate. Right age. Right name. Not Trump. Not wedded to Biden's awful border policies. Represents change.
Poor speaking voice, through no fault of his own. Just bad luck.
DeleteThe ad was supposedly run by a PAC. He is breaking campaign rules in order to get on the ballot is various states:
Delete"In a federal election complaint filed on Friday, the Democratic National Committee accused Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and a super PAC backing his independent presidential bid of illegally coordinating on a $15 million petition drive intended to qualify him for the ballot in several states that could be crucial to President Biden’s re-election prospects.
The 11-page complaint to the Federal Election Commission described the arrangement as an in-kind contribution to Mr. Kennedy’s campaign by the super PAC, American Values 2024, one that violated federal campaign finance laws and breached long-established financial barriers between candidates and outside groups."
RFK Jr will never be the Democratic candidate because it takes more than age to be viable to Democratic voters. He is considered a crank. It doesn't matter how famous his dead relatives were.
Good points, @12:20. My wife and I always thought of him as a crank, due to his extreme anti-vaccination stands.
DeleteHowever, he had moderated his anti-vac position, saying only that the amount of safety testing was inadequate. I suspect that ordinary non-political junkies may have no opinion of him. If Dems will support an old man with a faulty memory, perhaps they'll support a crank.
I’m proud to support Biden, who has done a lot of good things. Are you proud to support an old man who is a pathological liar, a nut job, under indictment, who invites NATO’s enemies to attack NATO, and who promises a second term of payback, David?
DeleteDavid says Dem's best shot is to dump the President and instead nominate a crank. Go fuck yourself, David.
DeleteDavid,
DeleteIf Trump wins the Presidency over Biden, it will be the Democrats fault, because Republicans have no agency. Or do you not agree with the media's take?
Per Drum: "we've heard an endless stream of personal reports about Donald Trump's behavior when he was in office, and they were also all the same: he watches a lot of TV, can't be bothered to do any reading, flies off the handle routinely, and lacks understanding of even simple issues. This comes from Republican loyalists who worked directly with him. Adjectives include: unhinged, idiot, off the rails (John Kelly), has the understanding of a fifth grader (Jim Mattis); racist, misogynist and bigot (Omarosa Manigault Newman); dumb as shit (Gary Cohn); dope, intelligence of a kindergartner (H.R. McMaster); wholly unfit to be in office, the most divisive president in history (Cassidy Hutchinson); idiot (Steve Mnuchin and Reince Priebus); like an 11-year-old-child (Steve Bannon); moron (Rex Tillerson); detached from reality, shouldn't be anywhere near the Oval Office (Bill Barr); fucking liar (John Dowd); threatens our democracy (Mark Esper); laughing fool (John Bolton); failed at being the president (Mick Mulvaney); utter disgrace (Tom Bossert); racist, conman, cheat (Michael Cohen); wholly unfit to hold office ever again (Sarah Matthews); has never cared about America, its citizens, its future or anything but himself (Ty Cobb); shown time and time again that he's willing to put his political ambitions ahead of what's best for the country (Alyssa Farah Griffin); doing great and irreparable harm to my country (Gen. Mark Milley); undermine[d] a peaceful transition in accordance with our Constitution (Gen. Joseph Dunford); threat to democracy (Miles Taylor); very little understanding of what it means to be in the military (Richard Spencer); off the rails, crazy, nihilistic (Anthony Scaramucci); cares about no one but himself (Stephanie Grisham); absolutely failed (Elizabeth Neumann); flat-out disregard for human life (Olivia Troye); has no principles. None. None. (Maryanne Berry Trump); fucking maniac (Mary Trump)."
DeleteWhy don't you worry about your own effing candidate, DIC? You know, the demented old man who in the last three days exhibited confusion about who is currently president, disparaged a serviceman stationed overseas, and invite Putin to attack a NATO ally if it pleases him? But I forget. Unlike the above - quoted individuals who have had firsthand experience with him, you have the unique skillset to judge for us whether Trump's blatherings are the result of a misunderstood comedic style, or special genius at dealmaking. What a crock.
David in Cal,
DeleteThank you so much for exposing Righties as morons.
The idea that Trump is a great negotiator has to be one of the stupider pieces of bullshit you ever coughed-up here at TDS.
Trump is the worst negotiator. All you have to do is compliment him about how smart he is, and he'll hand you the country if you want it. Also, he'll hand you his daughter, if you tell him you'll give him a shot with her.
“Tomorrow and all week: A first look at our blue battalions. More from the red tribe's camps.”
ReplyDeleteLooking forward to it, Bob.
Your anonymices will be proving you right every step of the way.
And you will continue to be a perfect example of red tribe sub-Gutfeld-level dumbness and meanspiritidness, every day.
DeleteI’ll be there for you.
DeleteOh, no doubt.
Deleteoooooooo damn. she got no doubt. check mate!
Deletegame, set, and match
Deletelights out
Deletetake her out the oven. she done
Deleteshe down for the count
Delete
ReplyDelete“According to the leading authority.”
What would our host do without Wikipedia?
What would anonymices do without AI?
DeleteI’m fine without AI.
Delete“No people are uninteresting!”
ReplyDeleteAnd yet, some people should be nowhere near the levers of power, despite being “interesting.”
And being interesting doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be criticized. It also doesn’t mean you aren’t stupid.
This post is just Somerby mythologizing, creating a narrative about US politics and the current campaign. There is nothing to be learned from the Iliad that applies here. Even his comment about sexual subjugation is just thrown in. It’s enough to recall his posts about Brock Turner, Roy Moore, Trump’s “pu**y-grabbing” remarks, stormy Daniels, and the E Jean Carroll trial to realize that he tends to defend or explain away the sexual subjugators.
ReplyDeleteI'm against rape, so I'm voting for Trump.
ReplyDeleteNo one is going to vote for Trump, just because Trump is a self-proclaimed sexual predator. They're going to vote for Trump because they love Trump's bigotry.
DeleteYevtushenko's poem is wonderful, and I'll remember it. I know more than a few people I like or love who will probably vote for Trump, for reasons I will probably never know or understand. They may not either.
ReplyDeleteThe Iliad shows many men at war killing and dying in a fight they had little personal stake in (allowing for possible anachronism re: "personal"), for honor and fealty to leaders.
I think my side has real honor in its cause. But I don't have to despise other soldiers who (perhaps with less good reason) feel the same about theirs. Their leaders are a different matter.
What is that you see as your side's cause?
DeleteI imagine the Trojans felt a personal stake, since their city was being besieged and threatened with annihilation, as eventually happened. Their very civilization was at stake. Not so much for the Greeks.
DeleteI can't say I remember the story well, but couldn't they, Trojans, just kick that Helen woman out of the city and be done with it?
DeleteThat would not have appeased the Greeks. So, no.
Delete@2:43 PM
DeleteIs that a fact?
There are very few, if any, facts in the Iliad. In that story, the Greeks were fighting for honor, and Helen was not considered an object by the Trojans to be bartered away.
DeleteI don't know, I reckon, dumping the lady outside the wall would immediately restore Spartans' honor.
DeleteIt was all about her eloping with a Trojan prince, wasn't it? So, give the woman back, and the incident is closed.
Whatever.
DeleteThe Illiad is a work of fiction. We do not know whether Homer even existed, or whether he was several people. The Illiad was written 800 years after the war, if here was one. There was no Helen and none of the other people described are historical -- they are made up. Homer's time was likely very different from Troy and the Greeks. So this is a lot of supposition heaped on a made up event that likely never happened at all and certainly didn't happen as described.
DeleteBut ponder this. In honor cultures, giving back a woman who has disgraced herself and her city-state is not an option. She would have been killed by her own people for dishonoring them.
Okay. If they didn't just want their lady back but were upset about her fucking the Trojan prince, they could kill the lady. And if they also wanted to punish the prince, Trojans could give them the prince too. And save the city.
DeleteBut, giving what I heard about the Spartans, I doubt they cared about their women's promiscuity. They, as I remember, were swingers.
Paris Alexander was killed in the war, Helen went back home with Menelaus, and all was forgiven.
DeleteThat’s in the odyssey, after troy’s destruction. The gods were also taking sides in the war. There is little chance that the writer of the Iliad was going to end it in the way that was suggested, by Helen being delivered to the Greeks. The war had to continue until troy was destroyed.
DeleteIt’s fiction, guys. It didn’t happen.
DeleteThen what is the relevance of it for today’s USA? Surely Somerby sees some sort of meaning in the Trojan war story.
Delete@5:39 PM: " There is little chance that the writer of the Iliad was going to end it in the way that was suggested, by Helen being delivered to the Greeks."
DeleteThat's not the point. The point is that (as in 1:49PM) the Trojans were "men at war killing and dying in a fight they had little personal stake in". Trojans could end the war, any time they wanted. And so could the Spartans, by just going home. Fuck the politicians and their bosses.
What idiocy.
DeleteRemember to spell Iliad with one L.
ReplyDeleteHistory is interesting.
ReplyDeleteModern people make videos of themselves opening things they buy and then call each other stupid. People are really boring.