tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post3330541936455049385..comments2024-03-28T08:17:14.194-04:00Comments on the daily howler: BALCONY FAILURE: Tale of the tape!<b>bob somerby</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/02963464534685954436noreply@blogger.comBlogger81125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-30702603454643972802012-04-05T18:15:21.795-04:002012-04-05T18:15:21.795-04:00Which is, by the way, exactly the state of the wea...Which is, by the way, exactly the state of the weapon as it was found and confiscated by police -- fully loaded, but with an empty chamber despite the one bullet being fired.KTWnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-12344741785646988742012-04-05T18:14:17.110-04:002012-04-05T18:14:17.110-04:00I take it back -- perhaps you're not logically...I take it back -- perhaps you're not logically challenged, you just don't know a single thing about guns. If Trayvon had been blocking the barrel, it wouldn't have prevented Zimmerman from firing the weapon, but it would have jammed the chamber and prevented another bullet from being loaded into it.KTWnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-44515054054337977282012-04-05T18:07:26.711-04:002012-04-05T18:07:26.711-04:00It bolsters his self-defense claim. Not only that,...It bolsters his self-defense claim. Not only that, but Zimmerman's brother offered the same explanation in a recent interview.<br /><br />Why does it bolster his self-defense claim? That's fucking obvious. Imagine that you're on the ground and an athletic man more about five inches taller than you is crouched over you, pummeling your head repeatedly into the hard concrete sidewalk. Things are looking bad. And then he notices your weapon sticking out of your pocket. And then he attempts to grab it -- knowing that he'll likely shoot you once he does. You tell me what you'd do in that scenario. It seems pretty clear that Zimmerman's choice was a tragic one, but one necessitated by a kill-or-be-killed situation -- a situation which, if the witnesses and testimony of Zimmerman and the police officers on duty are to be believed, was not initiated by Zimmerman.<br /><br />I don't know why you put 'scenario' in quote marks. Of course in a case which is surrounded by uncertainty and (possibly deliberate) misinformation there's going to be speculation as to the exact narrative of events. What facts we do know -- facts which a tendentious media has tried to either quash or distort -- tends to support the idea that there was a dangerous struggle of some kind which provoked a self-defense reaction from Zimmerman. <br /><br />You seem logically challenged, by the way. Why would you bizarrely assume that Trayvon grabbed the gun after he was shot, or that he pointed the gun at himself, rather than assume that Trayvon was grabbing the gun during the struggle and Zimmerman shot him in an attempt to regain control of the situation? <br /><br />And finally, there's now evidence that Zimmerman did not say 'coons' -- he said 'cold', because it was cold and rainy that night in Florida. http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2012/04/05/CNN-Coon-Cold-ZimmermanKTWnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-14358384199160960462012-04-05T13:35:55.953-04:002012-04-05T13:35:55.953-04:00Who's been inflammatory here, David? You label...Who's been inflammatory here, David? You labeled something a "horrendous racial attack" when you didn't even know the race of the victim, called the alleged attackers "felons" when you have no idea whether they had ever been convicted of ANY crime, and repeatedly insinuated that they beat someone to death, when the victim is still alive. Why should anyone accept anything you type here after that disgraceful performance?<br /><br />I asked what "exactly" makes this a racial crime. You responded with "feelings are running so strong in the area" and "it seems plausible that the felons may have been motivated, at least in part, by the poisonous atmosphere." That's some pretty weak tea, David. Would that stand up to scrutiny by you, had it been written by anyone else? <br /><br />Of course, you essentially answered my second question (which you nonetheless deemed rhetorical) with yes, any crime committed by blacks against people of another race should be viewed as a racial crime. That does confirm my suspicions of your own biases, however.<br /><br />And even better, despite having long read this blog which criticizes the mainstream media for poor journalism and pushing unsupported narratives instead of news, you accept at face value the word of a website that operates with an obvious ideological agenda simply because no other source has refuted their spurious claim, which you, yourself, admit is unlikely another organization would even bother to debunk. It takes some serious cognitive dissonance to do that and then call someone else a hustler. <br /><br />Besides, I said that to claim the authorities blamed Jackson, Farrakhan and Obama for the crime without any support for the clam was inflammatory. You tried to redefine my position-- nice argumentative technique.BKThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15780381542236932101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-46340050909526562342012-04-04T13:34:46.045-04:002012-04-04T13:34:46.045-04:00Is a "wee bit" equal to 48%?Is a "wee bit" equal to 48%?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-6072009112450393822012-04-04T12:06:46.169-04:002012-04-04T12:06:46.169-04:00BKT, I thought your questions were rhetorical, but...BKT, I thought your questions were rhetorical, but you want answers, so here goes:<br /><br />"What, exactly, makes that a "racial" attack?" <br /><br />I answered this question in my prior posts, although BKT may not agree with my answer.<br /><br />"Is any crime committed by blacks against someone of another race now a "horrendous racial attack?""<br /><br />This is clearly rhetorical. However, imagine that the races were reversed. Suppose two white men had yanked a random black man from his car and tried to beat him to death with a hammer. I think we'd all give strong consideration the likelihood that the attack was racial.<br /><br />"would you care to explain how "authorities" could conceivably blame those specific individuals for this? <br /><br />For that matter, why anyone would believe that an actual law enforcement group would publicly make such a blatantly inflammatory claim?"<br /><br />First of all, the report, albeit from a clearly conservative source, said that authorities <i>did</i> make such a claim. Furthermore AFAIK, no other source rufuted that claim (although one wouldn't expect other sources to address this claim if it's not true.)<br /><br />BKT says that blaming Sharpton and Jackson is inflammatory. Maybe it is. OTOH these two race hustlers are the one who have been inflaming the community. They deserve all the blame they get IMHO.<br /><br />BTW Anon 6:21 misunderstood my point when s/he says "every newspaper and TV station in the area published their mugshots." My point was that <i>before these suspects had been captured</i>, when all the police had released a witness description, some of the media included weight, height and sex, but didn't include race.David in Calnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-88784818314964546662012-04-04T11:26:58.854-04:002012-04-04T11:26:58.854-04:00This is a site for media criticism.
I wish there ...This is a site for media criticism.<br /><br />I wish there were more discussion about the longest running war in the history of our nation. But not here.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-63279206556974734162012-04-04T11:20:58.526-04:002012-04-04T11:20:58.526-04:00I wish I loved it when someone sees this world of ...I wish I loved it when someone sees this world of beautiful colors in black and white.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-50605327655961287512012-04-04T10:44:35.039-04:002012-04-04T10:44:35.039-04:00I can't help but wonder how seriously David wo...I can't help but wonder how seriously David would take a "news" article from a blatantly liberal website, if I were to link to one-- especially one that contained similar assumptions, logical failures and bombastic rhetoric to the one he shared.<br /><br />I also wonder why, after I asked a number of direct, pertinent questions of him in my first post, he responded only to a throwaway sentence at the end of my comment. But I only wonder rhetorically, since it's pretty obvious why.BKThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15780381542236932101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-7748979890012381682012-04-04T10:35:07.689-04:002012-04-04T10:35:07.689-04:00"It's ONLY a problem to those who believe..."It's ONLY a problem to those who believe right-wing lies, and were inclined to disbelieve Moore any way."<br /><br />You take my breath away, Anonymous. These words could only be written by someone who lives in a bubble. <br /><br />We've reached yet another impasse. <br /><br />I think that truth matters for a variety of reasons outlined above. You don't. <br /><br />Your position is quite popular and has been held by partisans and believers and tribes throughout human history. <br /><br />It is also astonishingly short-sighted.<br /><br />(btw, you lie. I never claimed to be a movement liberal. But, of course, in your world, lies don't matter)sherrlockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08689553678430736101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-78230674427940573422012-04-04T10:12:00.282-04:002012-04-04T10:12:00.282-04:00You're not following David's impeccable lo...You're not following David's impeccable logic: Since black people don't go around beating white people with hammers, this has to be connected to the Trayvon Martin case.<br /><br />There can be no other possible explanation. Even if we don't know the race of the victim.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-9983648646063208922012-04-04T09:59:09.117-04:002012-04-04T09:59:09.117-04:00"Is Michael Moore's 5 minutes of exaggera..."Is Michael Moore's 5 minutes of exaggeration not a problem when it provides ammunition for the right to discredit the rest of 'Sicko'?"<br /><br />It's ONLY a problem to those who believe right-wing lies, and were inclined to disbelieve Moore any way. <br /><br />Like "self-proclaimed" liberals.<br /><br />Go read your own post. You called the facts in the movie "unassailable" in one breath, then you said you were "ENRAGED" (emphasis added) when you found out that the Cubans took the 9/11 responders who were denied health coverage in the U.S.A. to the best hospital they had.<br /><br />It's called talking out of both sides of your mouth.<br /><br />And you are surprised that "liberals" would dare question that kind of duplicity?<br /><br />Good God almighty, what an ego you have. Or is it "tribalism"? Is there some rule that says that once a person claims to be a "movement liberal" all further discussion ends?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-89388201414462343732012-04-04T09:48:20.547-04:002012-04-04T09:48:20.547-04:00David is still mind-reading, just like the author ...David is still mind-reading, just like the author of the article he referenced. This incident was a burglary and carjacking, albeit an extremely violent one. Nothing more about it can be stated with any certainty-- not the motivation of the attackers, not the race of the victim, and certainly not anything regarding my beliefs as to what black men "routinely" do or don't do. <br /><br />That sort of belief appears to be something that exists only in the fevered brain of the author of the article on the "Divided States" website, and those who would give any credence to his racist screeds. So, thanks for the valuable contribution to this discussion, David.BKThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15780381542236932101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-24746292392551891682012-04-04T09:44:04.605-04:002012-04-04T09:44:04.605-04:00I just love it when two "movement liberals&qu...I just love it when two "movement liberals" buy all the lies the right-wing is selling.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-60911659899054149282012-04-04T09:42:02.439-04:002012-04-04T09:42:02.439-04:00That's your opinion. My opinion is that it'...That's your opinion. My opinion is that it's called "focusing on trivia and ignoring the big issues."<br /><br />We should be having a discussion about "Stand Your Ground" laws, and the push by ALEC and the NRA to spread them state by state, coast to coast.<br /><br />We should be having a discussion about racial profiling, certainly giving young black males the right to walk down the street without being suspected of a crime.<br /><br />We should be having a discussion about vigilantism, perhaps reaching some common ground you can't grab a gun and chase a kid down the street because you fear that the cops you just called won't get there in time.<br /><br />Instead, we are talking about how the NYT really doesn't know Zimmerman's weight, and how that is somehow rending the fabric of democracy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-30126242992821911742012-04-04T09:34:07.926-04:002012-04-04T09:34:07.926-04:00Under your "scenario" (boy, isn't it...Under your "scenario" (boy, isn't it fun to dream these things up?) there goes your "self-defense" claim. Zimmerman can be glad you're not his attorney, because you just put a needle in his arm.<br /><br />And yeah, after Zimmerman "shot in panic" striking Martin fatally in the chest, Martin grabbed the gun.<br /><br />Sure. Or are you saying that Martin grabbed the gun and pointed it at his own chest before Zimmerman "fired in panic"?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-53365795316188906092012-04-04T09:21:46.430-04:002012-04-04T09:21:46.430-04:00"That theory ignores the fact that these two ..."That theory ignores the fact that these two black men tried to beat the white victim to death with a hammer."<br /><br />David, how do you know the victim is white? His identity and race have never been disclosed. <br /><br />As for "some local newspapers . . . chose not to report their (suspects) race" utterly, utterly false. Every newspaper and TV station in the area reported the description of the suspects including their race, and every newspaper and TV station in the area published their mugshots.<br /><br />Which is why the rightwing blogosphere went bezerk(er). They saw pictures of two young black suspects, read the dateline "Sanford, Fla." then jumped from A on the English alphabet to the final point on the Russian alphabet in concluding, beyond question, that this crime had nothing to do with the stolen car, and everything to do with Trayvon Martin.<br /><br />And for what purpose? To drag into the discussion their own boogeymen -- Jessie (sic) Jackson, Al Sharpton and Luis (sic) Farrakhan, and to show just how awful people must be for exercising THEIR First Amendment rights and protesting for a full investigation in the Trayvon Martin case. They can't be doing in peacefully, can they? After all, just look at them and look who is leading them.<br /><br />This is yet another case of right-wingers spreading any lie they want, and people like you swallowing it whole.<br /><br />And that, sir, is why the "american discourse" has been hard to conduct, and why Somerby was once worthwhile, but now reduced to saying that unless the "other side" (which he defines as only the NYT and MSNBC) answers with absolute precision and perfection, the right-wing lies get to stand.<br /><br />I for one am sick of it. And you, sir, disgust me. If you want to peddle right-wing lies here, go right ahead. But don't expect not to be called what you are --- a disgusting, racist liar with absolutely no regard for truth.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-61836327959396076072012-04-04T02:36:36.393-04:002012-04-04T02:36:36.393-04:00As I said, I didn't see conclusive evidence th...As I said, I didn't see conclusive evidence that the attack was in retaliation for the shooting of Martin. OTOH feelings are running so strong in the area, including credible threats of violence, so that the Zimmerman family has gone into hiding. When Spike Lee tried to post Zimmerman's address but got it wrong, the couple whose address he posted felt threatened enough so that they went into hiding. IMHO it seems plausible that the felons may have been motivated, at least in part, by the poisonous atmosphere.<br /><br />BKT suggests that this may have been a random carjacking. That theory ignores the fact that these two black men tried to beat the white victim to death with a hammer. I hope BKT doesn't believe that black men routinely beat random victims to death for no reason. <br /><br />Anon 4:26 PM points out that the possible relation to Zimmerman/Martin was pointed out by the right wing, but not by the mainstream media. That indicates a problem with the mainstream media IMHO. They sometimes bend so far over to avoid being racist that they wind up censoring their news coverage. E.g., after a witness had described the attackers, some local newspapers chose not to report their race.David in Calnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-1611279478078642292012-04-04T01:20:32.793-04:002012-04-04T01:20:32.793-04:00Who says he didn't get any blood on him? Who s...Who says he didn't get any blood on him? Who said he 'calmly' reached for his gun? In fact the most logical scenario is that Trayvon noticed Zimmerman's gun during the struggle and attempted to forcibly take it from him and Zimmerman, realizing the stakes had been raised considerably, fired off a shot in panic. This would explain why the next round wasn't chambered -- because something was blocking it, i.e. Trayvon grabbing the barrel. <br /><br />Also he said 'punks'. Check the tape again. Not to mention the absurdity of flinging an antiquated racial slur in the middle of a rather calm and unheated 911 call. I guess the guy just wanted everyone to know how big of a fogey racist he was!KTWnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-22873718514356283082012-04-04T00:30:57.095-04:002012-04-04T00:30:57.095-04:00It's called exposing shoddy "journalism&q...It's called exposing shoddy "journalism". And that's a good thing. Factual accuracy is not too much to ask, especially of our millionaire elite press.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-32323545912407852972012-04-03T22:48:52.665-04:002012-04-03T22:48:52.665-04:00Beautifully said, Hiero.
I find it odd and somewh...Beautifully said, Hiero.<br /><br />I find it odd and somewhat incongruous to find myself debating liberals with a fervor I usually reserve for my conservative friends. As I've said repeatedly, its frustrating and a bit bewildering to see how, for many here, belief trumps reality at every turn.sherrlockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08689553678430736101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-58490986020149906612012-04-03T21:47:28.686-04:002012-04-03T21:47:28.686-04:00Nice work Sherrlock.
I get it even if anonymous d...Nice work Sherrlock.<br /><br />I get it even if anonymous doesn't. "Sicko" was, overall, a great piece of work by Michael Moore but Moore does have a habit of seeding his documentaries with needless distortions that give opponents plausible grounds to challenge his integrity. Most people do not have the time to wade through all the facts and operate on the common-sensical principal of "If you bullshit me on stuff I do (or think I do) know about, I'm not going to believe you on stuff I don't know about."<br /><br />And the whole trip to the Cuban hospital for 911 workers was set up as the crowning irony of the film while at the same time serving as propaganda for the Castro regime. That's just awful PR. <br /><br />The fact that the sequence was only five minutes long is irrelevant. <br /><br />The New York Times is regarded as our nation's paper of record. When they screw up the facts, as they regrettably so often do, it's extremely important, especially when they do so in a way that seems to confirm the right-wing stereotype of it as a left-wing propaganda rag. <br /><br />Anonymous reminds me of all the people who attacked skeptics of the Duke lacrosse charges as bigoted, closed-minded jerks while ignoring reasonable questions about Crystal Mangum's story. There are serious legitimate questions about the scenario being presented by the left regarding Zimmerman, especially in view of all the things we were assured were true that turned out to be wrong. It's still quite possible that Zimmerman was the sole aggressive jerk but maybe not.<br /><br />Unfortunately, a lot of people have trouble handling ambiguity and respond by lashing out at people who threaten their certainty. There's tons of them on both the left and the right.<br /><br />We have a word for them. They are called kooks. <br /><br />Now, let us all admit that we don't really know what happened and let the federal investigators do their job before we decide that we know what reality is here and viciously attack those who are skeptical.Hieronymus Braintreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05303938809800287873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-58237920910607685442012-04-03T20:49:39.229-04:002012-04-03T20:49:39.229-04:00Well, excuse me if I put just a wee bit more crede...Well, excuse me if I put just a wee bit more credence in Tom Owen's opinion than I do in the sudden experts in voice analysis that have sprung up all over the right-wing blogosphere in the wake of a conclusion that didn't go their way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-69799604268082007892012-04-03T20:48:08.005-04:002012-04-03T20:48:08.005-04:00Guess that means your mouth once again wrote check...Guess that means your mouth once again wrote checks that your brain can't cash, to use an old Internet cliche.<br /><br />Can't find where anybody called Zimmerman a murderer? Thought so.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-20356722167441912362012-04-03T20:02:49.958-04:002012-04-03T20:02:49.958-04:00Are you Fritz?
Is Michael Moore's 5 minutes ...Are you Fritz? <br /><br />Is Michael Moore's 5 minutes of exaggeration not a problem when it provides ammunition for the right to discredit the rest of 'Sicko'? If you don't believe that's a major flaw, you've never had to argue the point with a conservative.<br /><br />Finally, a quote from your very first response:<br /><br />"...if you are credulous when it comes to sources on the left and don't have brains enough to short wheat from chaff, then that's nobody's fault but your own."<br /><br />Yeah, hypocrisy indeed.sherrlockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08689553678430736101noreply@blogger.com