tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post3746210309901358744..comments2024-03-29T05:30:01.292-04:00Comments on the daily howler: ADULT ABUSE: What the Times should report!<b>bob somerby</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/02963464534685954436noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-53464116254745225452013-09-18T17:09:12.871-04:002013-09-18T17:09:12.871-04:00To democracy, who I can safely assume is the autho...To democracy, who I can safely assume is the author of all three posts that appeared between 7:49AM and 8:03AM Sept.18<br /><br />Your two principal points suffer from the same fatal defect: they are completely non-responsive to my argument because both of them deal with AVERAGES, while my focus was exclusively on the top percentiles. So, you may well be correct that the average student's performance as a 12th grader on the NAEP may suffer due to a lack of motivation and so may be dismissible. And you may be right that the competitiveness of the US when taking the whole population into account is not impaired by any lack of proficiency in necessary school-acquired skills. But that's irrelevant because my argument concerned only the best-performing students (and the very special kind of competitiveness they can provide to a country in terms of profound expertise, which usually underpins brilliant innovation) and there my quote from Prof. Carnoy stands unchallenged by you: “The problem is at the top. U.S. top students are way behind top students in other countries”.<br /><br />I would love to have attended the seminar that Prof. Carnoy gave, the one where Jill Barshay heard the words she, and I, quoted. I would love to see all the evidence Prof. Carnoy used, and all the analysis of that evidence he did, to arrive at his disturbing conclusion. But pending that, I'm tending to believe that a man of his ample credentials, great conscientiousness and intellect (as evidenced by the Jan. 2013 paper of his I perused), and lack of an “American schools are failing” axe to grind (on the contrary, he's an advocate of the idea that average American students are doing well compared to other countries) is probably correct in his statement, “The problem is at the top. U.S. top students are way behind top students in other countries”. <br /><br />Even people who are believers in the United States' moral “exceptionalism” cannot blithely presume that we are exceptional more generally, and particularly should not delude themselves that this country is somehow exempt from transcendent historical forces. Any study of the past shows that the supremacy of all empires is, temporally, very finite indeed. And one factor that hastens the demise is a complacent “everything is fine” attitude—the very one that you are exhibiting, democracy—where all adverse evidence of decline (relative to others) is explained away, and no serious effort is made to rectify the situation until it is far too late.CriticalJudgmentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-59650974487586192692013-09-18T08:03:23.105-04:002013-09-18T08:03:23.105-04:00Besides a baseless criticism of Bob Somerby over N...Besides a baseless criticism of Bob Somerby over NAEP scores, CriticalJudgment makes a very silly argument about test scores (NAEP or otherwise) and economic competitiveness. <br /><br />As I've noted elsewhere, the World Economic Forum evaluates and ranks countries on economic competitiveness each year. The U.S. was typically ranked 1st or 2nd each year, but recently has started to slide down; it dropped to 4th last year (2010-11) and to 5th last year (2011-12).<br /><br />When the U.S. dropped from 2nd to 4th in 2010-11, four factors were cited by the WEF for the decline: (1) weak corporate auditing and reporting standards, (2) weak (poor) corporate ethics, (3) big deficits (brought on by Wall Street's financial implosion) and (4) unsustainable levels of debt. <br /><br />More recently, major factors cited by the WEF are a "business community" and business leaders who are "critical toward public and private institutions," a lack of trust in politicians and the political process with a lack of transparency in policy-making, and "a lack of macroeconomic stability" caused by decades of fiscal deficits, especially deficits and debt accrued over the last decade that "are likely to weigh heavily on the country’s future growth." <br /><br />It's interesting that the WEF cites the top economic competitors –– those ranking higher than the U.S. –– for efficiency, trust, transparency, ethical behavior, and honesty. <br /><br />Corporate "reformers" seem to take absolutely no notice. They're too busy offshoring, lobbying for more tax cuts and give-aways, fighting against transparency in financial dealings, refusing to take any responsibility for their culpability in wrecking the economy, and lying about most all of it while laying the blame on the public schools.<br /><br />Much of the mainstream press has been a willing accomplice.<br /><br />(democracy)<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-21739679599237382522013-09-18T07:53:38.610-04:002013-09-18T07:53:38.610-04:00By the way, CriticalJudgent, the 12th grade popula...By the way, CriticalJudgent, the 12th grade population today is not the same population it was 40 years ago. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-67444744330974336892013-09-18T07:49:01.791-04:002013-09-18T07:49:01.791-04:00CriticalJudgment bases his criticism of Bob Somerb... CriticalJudgment bases his criticism of Bob Somerby's reporting of NAEP scores (which,by the way, are accurate), focusing only on 12th grade NAEP scores, which really, are the only ones he might possibly use. ANd they are bogus.<br /><br />And the NAEP governing board knows it. The NAGB has investigated the 12th grade scores, commissioning a number of studies, most of which came with a set of recommendations. For example, a 2005 paper for NAGB by Jere Brophy and Carol Ames examined 12th-grade motivational issues related to NAEP tests. Most anyone with an ounce of sense knows that motivators at 4th, 8th, and 12th grade are not the same. Those are very different physical, social, emotional and intellectual stages.<br /><br />Brophy and Ames clarified it thusly: "it would be important to encourage the students to perceive participating in NAEP as a worthwhile thing to do, to feel that they are acting autonomously when choosing to do so, and to understand the purpose."<br /> <br />"This is a tall order, given the content of NAEP, the traditional NAEP procedures, and the attitudes of most twelfth graders toward tests and test taking. Consequently, the most direct extrapolations from our motivational analysis favor the negative case (drop twelfth-grade NAEP testing). Neither students nor school personnel are likely to perceive value in NAEP participation. Tests are not intrinsically interesting to most students, and although some may value rewards that successful test performance might bring, they usually do not value the process of test taking itself. This is especially true of high school seniors in their spring term, who are disengaging from the series of evaluation hurdles that is built into our high school culture. Because NAEP does not align with their school’s curriculum and does not lead to feedback that would allow students to improve their school performance levels, and because there are no prospects for rewards either for participating in the assessment or for attaining some qualifying score, there is no rational incentive for students to participate."<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-60717896240651645872013-09-18T07:37:41.201-04:002013-09-18T07:37:41.201-04:00It is good news that someone is telling Slate read...It is good news that someone is telling Slate readers the truth.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-84194168468462499352013-09-18T07:36:44.617-04:002013-09-18T07:36:44.617-04:00There are large NAEP score gains for blacks and Hi...There are large NAEP score gains for blacks and Hispanics, but the "achievement" gap between whites and blacks and Hispanics remains.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-17965366649892018122013-09-17T01:18:30.276-04:002013-09-17T01:18:30.276-04:00Good thing for us that we own everything, eh?
Good thing for us that we own everything, eh?<br />deadratnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-80949525794104475292013-09-17T00:48:07.360-04:002013-09-17T00:48:07.360-04:00Dare you say it, "genetic ones"? More l...Dare you say it, "genetic ones"? More like you've been dying to say it. Which, if ture indicates the weakness of Caucasian folk intellectually when matched against a Asians, and physically, when matched against the athletic ability of the Negro race. And they sure as heck lack the workplace and reproductive abilities of the mixed breed Latinos. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-62989624878664426212013-09-16T19:32:22.587-04:002013-09-16T19:32:22.587-04:00To the perhaps slightly physically (but not, in an...To the perhaps slightly physically (but not, in any perceptible way, intellectually) shrunken deadrat:<br /><br />You raise some valid and interesting points that are worth considering. <br /><br />First, let me emphasize that the very fact that until the other day I was gulled by Somerby into believing things about US student performance that I now realize are clearly false makes it apparent that I myself have no expertise in these matters. <br /><br />Second, we all agree (KZ, deadrat, and myself) that the NAEP data on 12th graders that Somerby has taken pains to withhold shows that the top students have not improved their performance over the forty year span of the NAEP.<br /><br />Third, I don't think one should lightly regard my invocation of Prof. Carnoy's summary assessment. Note: The Carnoy quote came from Jill Barshay, who is not merely some “blogger” KZ, but a graduate of Brown, the London School of Economics, the Columbia School of Journalism, has worked extensively as a journalist, is the founding editor and writer of Education By The Numbers, The Hechinger Report's blog about education data, and attended a seminar given by Prof. Carnoy where she recorded the quote I cited—so I think we can trust that quote's accuracy! <br /><br />Prof. Carnoy, a Stanford professor, has devoted himself in recent years entirely to the question of exactly how well educated American young people are compared to the rest of the world. And note that he is NOT someone who has staked out an “American schools are failing” position—on the contrary, his Jan. 2013 extensively-researched, data-filled paper sounds almost Somerby-like in its praise of the improvements in YOUNGER American students. So when he says “The problem is at the top. U.S. top students are way behind top students in other countries” I think it's overwhelmingly likely to be a statement supported by a great deal of evidence. So, to you, deadrat, and to KZ, I say that if both the NAEP data and Prof. Carnoy's statement are true, then I've reached a valid conclusion in stating that to have the top US students' performance stagnate for forty years, while top students elsewhere flourished during the same span presents a worrisome problem. (And if the top students in these other countries were ALWAYS vastly superior to the top US students, that's even more worrisome!!)<br /> <br />Several crucial points: Nowhere did I myself blame our SCHOOLS for this. I merely said it made the “our schools are failing” mantra understandable, since most people would consider the schools the likeliest culprit. Yet it may turn out that it's a non-school cultural issue, or even (dare I say it!) a genetic one. If, as I suspect, many of the top students elsewhere that Carnoy describes as better than ours are in Asian countries, cultural factors could well explain it.<br /><br /> For example, NYC has two quite famous “elite” high schools that you must take a combination achievement/IQ test to gain entry to. In recent years, the population of the schools has gone from overwhelmingly Jewish to overwhelmingly Asian, largely due to fascinating cultural factors—see an article in the NY Times “For Asians School Tests Are Vital Steppingstones” by Kyle Spencer. Now imagine a country filled with parents like those of the NYC Asian youngsters!<br /><br /><br />CriticalJudgmentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-38290778923973730642013-09-16T19:23:25.854-04:002013-09-16T19:23:25.854-04:00KZ, overmastered by your eagerness to disparage my...KZ, overmastered by your eagerness to disparage my comment, you foolishly resorted to the ultimately self-defeating gambit of distorting my words. Why “self-defeating”? Because in an internet comments-section it is so quick and easy for the distortee to demonstrate to all interested parties what the distorter has done—as I will now illustrate.<br /><br />You say that the NAEP data does not show “all that CriticalJudgment alleges it shows”. No, KZ, the NAEP data shows exactly what I alleged it shows, because even the most distracted skimming of my comment reveals that all I claimed it showed was that (quoting from my post) “the top students' performance hasn't budged in forty years”, and in fact I put those words in ALL CAPS, so really, your getting that wrong is inexcusable. The part of my comment about the widening gulf between the top students here in America and in some other countries was based on Prof. Carnoy's comments, whose own research on the performance of students elsewhere in the world corroborated and extended the NAEP results. I'll have more to say on this in my reply to deadrat.<br /><br /><br />CriticalJudgmentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-30201581421121208622013-09-16T14:33:42.787-04:002013-09-16T14:33:42.787-04:00I don't know what he was implying, cacambo.
Bu...I don't know what he was implying, cacambo.<br />But is BOB implying education testing is showing something "gloomy"? Sure looks like it.<br /><br />KZAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-6365827228089016392013-09-16T14:27:57.738-04:002013-09-16T14:27:57.738-04:00Don't sell yourself short, passedrodent. I reg...Don't sell yourself short, passedrodent. I regard you as a helpful dimwit!<br /><br />You are certainly right about the NAEP data not showing all that CriticalJudgement alleges it shows. But it does show our smartest smarty pants aren't scoring any higher than they did way back when. I doubt that is because our schools are failing. If they were those poor braniacs's scores would be going down.<br /><br />http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/pubs/main2012/2013456.aspx<br /><br />KZ (Cain't help but Praise BOB)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-15968649478054312042013-09-16T00:24:16.932-04:002013-09-16T00:24:16.932-04:00I'm pretty sure KZ regards me as a helpless di...I'm pretty sure KZ regards me as a helpless dimwit, but I'm not insulted. Partly because I have no feelings, and partly because this is blog commentary, fercryanoutloud.<br /><br />As dimwitted as I may be, I still managed to track down the 12th grade results on the NAEP tests, and as I noted above, those results do support your conclusions.<br /><br />By the way, I was fairly tall in my high-school senior year. Alas, not so much now.deadratnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-20432832567502729512013-09-15T23:18:26.135-04:002013-09-15T23:18:26.135-04:00Sure, our educational system is so rotten, so horr...Sure, our educational system is so rotten, so horrific, so horrible, the teachers are so evil, those teacher unions are demonic that the USA is a tenth rate economy, there is no innovation in this country, we are not the richest and most powerful country on earth because we are behind the rest of the universe in educational outcomes. All those Mars missions were created by foreigners and charter school graduates, don't you know.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-82222369107931750452013-09-15T22:04:49.116-04:002013-09-15T22:04:49.116-04:00NAEP tests aren't given overseas, so it's ...NAEP tests aren't given overseas, so it's hard to say there's a "widening gulf between the top US students and those elsewhere."<br /><br />In other countries, top students may "have improved dramatically," but that doesn't tell us how they compare with US high school seniors. We have to know where both cohorts started.<br /><br />US 12th grade NAEP reading scores have stagnated at the 287 level, but we don't know what that means unless we know whether past and current cohorts are similar. In any case 265 is basic level performance; 302 is proficient level.<br /><br />Is it "obvious" that a country's competitiveness is determined "disproportionately" by the "best and brightest"? Is it possible that the country can remain competitive because it attracts the best and brightest foreign high school graduates to its colleges and universities? In any case, the latest available national reading score (2009) for 12th graders at the 90th percentile (presumably the b&b) is 335.<br /><br />None of this means that the US doesn't have a problem with public education; it just means that the data doesn't support the narrative of decline.deadratnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-62753676324283842132013-09-15T19:13:28.708-04:002013-09-15T19:13:28.708-04:00KZ says, quite preposterously, "Unfortunately...KZ says, quite preposterously, "Unfortunately all we can do is imagine since CJ provides no links." <br /><br />Really, KZ? You can only "imagine"? Are you suddenly so inept at using the internet that you can't find the NAEP Grade 12 results and/or competent analysis of those results by independent parties? But you must just be pretending to be stymied, because I see that you tracked down my Carnoy quote to a blog post which you obviously read. And guess what? That very blog post has a lovely graph of the not-at-all-elusive NAEP Grade 12 results you claim not to be able to find--disaggregated, displaying the entire 40-plus year history, and vividly demonstrating exactly what I described in my post. <br /><br />And if by "we" you didn't intend to convey your own problems in obtaining the data, but were nobly speaking on behalf of the other readers of this blog, I think they'd be pretty insulted that you evidently regard them as helpless dimwits unable to find information that is ubiquitous online. CriticalJudgmentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-7742550900872900122013-09-15T13:54:58.047-04:002013-09-15T13:54:58.047-04:00"Imagine" suggests CriticalJudgement. Un..."Imagine" suggests CriticalJudgement. Unfortunately all we can do is imagine since CJ provides no links. In fact the only source is supposedly a quote from Carnoy. Unfortunately that quote comes from a blog which provides no source other than to say Carnoy said those words "at a seminar" the blogger attended.<br /><br />KZ (never eager to defend the BOB)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-80087979467434219842013-09-14T16:58:16.855-04:002013-09-14T16:58:16.855-04:00I just stumbled on something that, if true, simult...I just stumbled on something that, if true, simultaneously explains the “schools are failing, we're losing our competitiveness” mantra we've heard for so many years, and utterly discredits the major claims of Somerby—actually, it doesn't merely discredit his claims, it exposes him as a despicable liar.<br /><br />Yes, I'm uncharacteristically genuinely angry, both at Somerby for his willful distortions and myself for naively believing Somerby when he presented the “evidence” about US educational achievement even though I recognized he was a highly unreliable reporter in other realms.<br /><br /> What has Somerby been stating (and re-stating, and re-stating again and.....) as his Ultimate Takeaway in the Fiasco of Education Reporting? That the data, contrary to all the media misrepresentations, shows math and reading performance has improved across all demographic groups in this country for forty years, and, consequently, the ubiquitously-voiced fear that America is losing its competitiveness because of flagging achievement is utterly meritless. <br /><br />But in data Somerby hasn't breathed a word about, there IS a powerful reason to believe exactly what Somerby has denied—out schools ARE failing and we ARE losing our competitiveness where it counts the most.<br /><br />Somerby has incessantly discussed the NAEP, his acknowledged 'gold standard', with respect to fourth and eighth graders. But he doesn't mention the NAEP results from Grade 12, arguably the most relevant, since it measures performance in public school's finished product, and at an age closer to employment and competition in the real world. Some people want to ignore Grade 12 results because of the supposedly confounding effect of the dropout factor—as the dropout rate changes (which particularly affects the disadvantaged) the number of lower-class, poorer performing students in the testing pool changes, so comparisons are supposedly more difficult. But disaggregation of the results allows us to determine the role played by changing dropout rates.<br /><br />So, here's the data that Somerby has withheld from his readers. The long-term (40 year) NAEP scores by Grade 12 students have been utterly flat. But when you disaggregate the results you see that the disadvantaged students have improved, the middle of the road ones have shown mixed results, BUT THE TOP STUDENTS' PERFORMANCE HASN'T BUDGED IN FORTY YEARS. Meanwhile, in many other countries, the top students have improved dramatically, so that there's been a widening gulf between the top US students and those elsewhere. And obviously, a country's competitiveness is determined disproportionately by how its “best and brightest” are performing. According to Carnoy (who wrote a paper fiercely defending the performance of YOUNGER American students) the international data show exactly what you see when you study the data from the NAEP—as Carnoy puts it, “The problem is at the top. U.S. top students are way behind top students in other countries.” <br /><br />Imagine that height were as important as intellectual performance and we measured it as zealously as we do the latter —it might be interesting if eight-year-olds and twelve-year-olds were taller than their counterparts ten years ago, who in turn were taller than their brethren ten years before, etc. but if all the eighteen-year-olds were the same height for forty years, who would dare ignore that fact and instead chirp incessantly about the taller eight- and twelve-year-olds? It would be an act of either madness or deceit.CriticalJudgmentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-12084175942403545912013-09-14T01:44:40.474-04:002013-09-14T01:44:40.474-04:00Anonoderp, I believe the implication, but perhaps ...Anonoderp, I believe the implication, but perhaps not the intent of Winterchill's comment is that Somerby is either lying or lazy when he said "we don't know the answer to that." Lying or lazy is a critique often made by Somerby of journalists not knowing less easily obtained answers. Since Bob has actually alluded to the studies before, one can conclude he is being honest like Rachel Maddow is often honest. Derp is so endearing.<br /><br />Anon. at 10:37. Eligibility for free and reduced lunch is an indicator of relative income with very high statistical correlation<br />to both poverty and test scores over time.<br /><br />Winterchill, what you found in 5 seconds is<br />a misrepresentation of what Conroy and Rothstein show in their own work. They did<br />indeed find that students attending schools with high levels of free/reduced lunch eligibility were overrepresented, but they did not "conclude low income students were oversampled." They in fact found the income distribution factor in the sample consistent<br />with US students as a whole. They "seem" to conclude that just the presence of so many students associated with high levels of free/reduced lunch among their classmates must have had some negative effect on scores overall. Their case is pretty weak on this point. This is, of course, my take on their work. Others are free to read the whole thing and reach their own conclusions.<br /><br />http://www.epi.org/publication/us-student-performance-testing/<br /><br />KZ<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-79523666545611011562013-09-13T22:37:49.681-04:002013-09-13T22:37:49.681-04:00Eligibility for reduced-priced school lunches is n...Eligibility for reduced-priced school lunches is not an indicator of poverty.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-34916303182944344132013-09-13T22:22:41.023-04:002013-09-13T22:22:41.023-04:00Derp. No kidding. That was the point of Bob's ...Derp. No kidding. That was the point of Bob's question.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-75016740670230048832013-09-13T21:11:28.174-04:002013-09-13T21:11:28.174-04:00Terrific post. This is the examined assumption of...Terrific post. This is the examined assumption of every news report about public schools: they are failing. No they aren't! Schools in high poverty areas are failing (because we don't give a shit about poor kids.) Cay Borduinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16192013735489622678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-10951538177127713192013-09-13T18:25:37.526-04:002013-09-13T18:25:37.526-04:00Somerby says,”And by the way: DID the PISA over-re...Somerby says,”And by the way: DID the PISA over-represent low-income kids in its 2009 American test group? We don’t know the answer to that. A real paper might want to report it.”<br /><br />Well, a real blogger who's obsessed with education issues might want to report it. Or maybe Somerby “just doesn't care about black kids”.<br /><br />It took me less than five seconds to find the following, which certainly goes a long way to answering the question posed by Somerby (and not for the first time!!): <br /><br />“Carnoy and his coauthor Richard Rothstein of the Economic Policy Institute also contend that low-income students were oversampled in the U.S. results on the 2009 PISA test. About 40 percent of American PISA-takers attended a school where half or more of students were eligible for free or reduced-priced lunch, although nationwide only 23 percent of students attend such schools.” WinterChillnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-39138643522519944182013-09-13T18:20:05.380-04:002013-09-13T18:20:05.380-04:00From the Guardian's Kevin Maguire and Julian B...From the Guardian's Kevin Maguire and Julian Borger, January 24, 2002:<br /><br />"Professor Roger Scruton, darling of the moral right, asked one of the world's biggest tobacco companies for L5500 (Pounds) a month to help place pro-smoking articles in some of Britain's most influential newspapers and magazines.<br /><br />The controversial conservative academic offered to use his Fleet Street contacts to get pieces published in his own name and those of others on major topics of current concern to the tobacco industry.<br /><br />In a leaked e-mail to Japan Tobacco Int'l seeking a L1000 rise [sic] on his existing L4500 monthly fee, Prof. Scruton argued that in a business largely conducted by shysters and sharks, he represented value for money."<br /><br />He ought to know all about shysters and sharks.<br /> <br /><br /> matty coopernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-33177444598030649422013-09-13T17:18:03.738-04:002013-09-13T17:18:03.738-04:00Thanks. Interesting report even though you are to...Thanks. Interesting report even though you are tooting your own horn, so to speak.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com