tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post437039230237725828..comments2024-03-29T06:44:19.414-04:00Comments on the daily howler: Krugman’s concern and the Etch a Sketch clowns!<b>bob somerby</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/02963464534685954436noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-33396860833855140422013-05-25T21:06:53.419-04:002013-05-25T21:06:53.419-04:00Great info. Luсκy mе Ι camе
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You have cancer.I advocate chemothe...I am a doctor. You have cancer.I advocate chemotherapy. Mitt romney says that I want yourmhair to fall out and for you to get deathly ill. Paul Krugman says Romney is lying. Bob says Mitt is correct. Discuss.Potato Headhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07197891921849976586noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-23227631601017993692012-03-25T17:00:55.781-04:002012-03-25T17:00:55.781-04:00I am a doctor. You have cancer.I advocate chemothe...I am a doctor. You have cancer.I advocate chemotherapy. Mitt romney says that I want yourmhair to fall out and for you to get deathly ill. Paul Krugman says Romney is lying. Bob says Mitt is correct. Discuss.Potato Headhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07197891921849976586noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-12963788818828294742012-03-24T10:46:03.116-04:002012-03-24T10:46:03.116-04:00He should remind voters of the mess he inherited. ...He should remind voters of the mess he inherited. He should also run on his record of fixing that mess with Republicans in Congress fighting him every step of the way.<br /><br />And Newsflash: "Everybody" doesn't already think exactly the same way you do.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-44391566614702955952012-03-24T10:38:33.561-04:002012-03-24T10:38:33.561-04:00Such an utter, utter "misstatement" of t...Such an utter, utter "misstatement" of the position of the climate SCIENCE ("warmists" --- not even clever, David) as to strongly indicate that you are too intellectually lazy to inform yourself about what you are talking about.<br /><br />But go ahead, David. Name one, peer review study by any "warmist" (geez, how dishonest can you get?) that says that "man-made CO2 wasn't a significant factor until the last 40-50 years."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-91409244929208278022012-03-23T17:51:47.578-04:002012-03-23T17:51:47.578-04:00Rob, those who support the warmists beliefs about ...Rob, those who support the warmists beliefs about global warming should believe in the warmists' climate models. Those models show that man-made CO2 wasn't a significant factor until the last 40 - 50 years. <br /><br />As you point out, the geo-engineering fix I'm hoping for doesn't exist today. I don't know for certain that extensive research can come up with practical methods for cooling the planet.<br /><br />And, like you, I'm quite worried that geoengineering efforts might lead to an overall increase in negative environmental consequences. However, there's essentially no alternative. The various carbon sequestration schemes that are being discussed aren't nearly enough to do the job, according to the warmists' models.David in Calnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-38172718559389140292012-03-23T17:04:08.430-04:002012-03-23T17:04:08.430-04:00"Note that there was considerable warming of ..."Note that there was considerable warming of the earth from 1800 to 1960 -- a period when man's CO2 addition was too small to be the cause."<br /><br />When was the Industrial Revolution, again? Wasn't that sometime in the late 1800's, not 1960? And wasn't that about the time human activity began contributing ever-increasing amounts of CO2 and other pollutants to the atmosphere?<br /><br />You put a lot of faith in <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoengineering" rel="nofollow">"geo-engineering."</a> Do you know what that consists of? Do you think that the science of geoengineering has advanced significantly in the past 4 years, since the IPCC declared that "geoengineering options, such as ocean fertilization to remove CO2 from the atmosphere, remained largely unproven?" Do you dispute the opinion of two scientists who studied the results of other human interventions into environmental systems and concluded that "given our current level of understanding of the climate system, it is likely that the result of at least some geoengineering efforts would follow previous ecological examples where increased human intervention has led to an overall increase in negative environmental consequences?"Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10719212263455435772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-49633424884168594252012-03-23T17:03:57.241-04:002012-03-23T17:03:57.241-04:00Who will fund research?
Republicans?
No they wil...Who will fund research?<br /><br />Republicans?<br /><br />No they will not. If they have their way, they will drill and pump, and build pipelines helper skelter until gas DOES cost $20.00 a gallon to produce.<br /><br />Democrats? No, because Republican legislators will not authorize spending for that kind of research because Big Oil pays their campaign expenses.<br /><br />Wall Street? No, because Wall Street would much rather skim quick profits from gambling with other people's money than risk it on chancy long-term enterprises.<br /><br />Only a large, strong government can fund something like this, and Republicans are working 24/7 to make sure we don't have one.<br /><br />David, when I hear Republicans cry about how the poor suffer when gasoline goes up or when municipal bus company unions strike, I just want to scream "You are all lying hypocrites!"<br /><br />But I won'tgravymeisterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16075831177588700301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-20481284158809330092012-03-23T16:33:10.660-04:002012-03-23T16:33:10.660-04:00"Thanks to people who think like David, it is..."Thanks to people who think like David, it is already too late to prevent disaster."<br /><br />I plead not guilty. You might equally well blame the supporters of the Kyoto Agreement. Neither Kyoto nor any other proposed approach was remotely adequate, if the pessimists are right. <br /><br />"All we can do now is try to control the scale of the disaster. We can continue doing nothing while we argue over the futility of trying to do anything..."<br /><br />IMHO we should be spending lots of money on research to find effective geo-engineering approaches to reducing the earth's temperature. Geo-engineering has several huge benefits as compared to CO2 schemes:<br /><br />1. It would hopefully be effective.<br />2. It would be more affordable.<br />3. We could wait and see whether the warming trend actually continues and whether the adverse effects are as bad as the pessimists think.<br />4. Geo-engineering could work, and CO2 schemes could be useless, if the reality turns out to be that there's a dangerous long-term warming trend, but man's activity is <i>not</i> the primary cause. IMHO this possibility is not unlikely. Note that there was considerable warming of the earth from 1800 to 1960 -- a period when man's CO2 addition was too small to be the cause. <br /><br />"what is the harm in structuring the market to encourage better energy development and use, especially among those most aggressively consuming fossil fuels?"<br /><br />IMHO there are two main types of harm:<br /><br />1. The cost of any of these programs is gigantic. Chances are the brunt of of the pain will be felt by poorer Americans. E.g., suppose the price of gasoline is forced up to $20/gallon. That's a level that would discourage driving. But, it's the poor and middle class who would be most affected. Richer Americans can more easily afford $20/gallon gas. <br /><br />2. Money spent on CO2 reduction means money not spent on geo-engineering approaches that could actually work.David in Calnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-973028889114137502012-03-23T15:38:05.273-04:002012-03-23T15:38:05.273-04:00Yes, indeed, if only Krugman sounded more like (sa...Yes, indeed, if only Krugman sounded more like (say) E.J. Dione, Donna Brazile, Clarence Page or Michael Kinsley, and never said anything unkind, and never called out George Will on national TV, and instead of referring to "lies", just noted that we have differing interpretations of reality, each to his own.<br /><br />That would be one *very* effective liberal....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-57156538120270673682012-03-23T15:33:12.784-04:002012-03-23T15:33:12.784-04:00It's a great point to make. All the clowning ...It's a great point to make. All the clowning about Seamus and Etch a Sketch and "magic underwear" might contribute on the margins to defeating Romney. But it's not enough. A semi-competent politican (we'll find out if that's Obama) needs to hang the Great Recession around the necks of Romney and his party and to explain that giving power to them means that the looters will win again, at the expense of the rest of us. Given how compromised both Obama himself and his picks like Geithner are on economic issues, I'm not entirely sure he will do that. Then we'll find out whether he can beat Romney just by saying that he's weird or a phony. Newsflash: everybody already thinks that most politicians are phonies and a bit off. I hope they have more than that come November.redscotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00311167473555575509noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-38959816360568666742012-03-23T14:24:04.010-04:002012-03-23T14:24:04.010-04:00Advocating a policy that would cause energy prices...Advocating a policy that would cause energy prices to skyrocket is not the same as wanting energy prices to skyrocket. Going to the doctor to get a flu shot is not the same as enjoying getting flu shots.<br /><br />This subtle distinction seems to elude many people.<br /><br />I would also point out that a policy that causes energy prices to skyrocket doesn't necessarily imply gasoline prices skyrocketing. Gasoline is only one form of energy.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10719212263455435772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-45083695962383167522012-03-23T14:15:45.022-04:002012-03-23T14:15:45.022-04:00Thanks to people who think like David, it is alrea...Thanks to people who think like David, it is already too late to prevent disaster. All we can do now is try to control the scale of the disaster. We can continue doing nothing while we argue over the futility of trying to do anything, and the disaster will be absolute. (A self-fulfilling prophecy for David.) Or we can finally begin doing something to reduce the impact of the disaster as much as we can. The longer we screw around the worse it will be.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10719212263455435772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-56987410413099243772012-03-23T14:14:04.718-04:002012-03-23T14:14:04.718-04:00D in C,
Regardless of your views on global warming...D in C,<br />Regardless of your views on global warming (or anyone else's), the Clean Air Act is still the law of the land.<br /><br />Unlike the government of Arizona, the federal government still enforces laws even if businesses and taxpayers complain it costs them money.<br /><br />It appears the people who insist we cannot pass public debt onto our children and grandchildren are the same ones that demand we use up all the cheap energy now, repeal anti-pollution laws, and thus leave our descendants an impoverished wasteland.<br /><br />David, you have made it clear that you choose the fourth alternative, which is to do nothing and let the chips fall where they may.<br /><br />There is an African saying: "We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children."<br /><br />Will future generations honor us or curse us? <br /><br />Do you care?gravymeisterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16075831177588700301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-49683435321376143242012-03-23T13:45:49.063-04:002012-03-23T13:45:49.063-04:00Just like conservative talking heads crow over a f...Just like conservative talking heads crow over a few polls showing Republican senate candidates leading 8 months before the election.<br /><br />It's not a liberal-vs.-conservative habit. It's a human habit.BKThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15780381542236932101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-19061427544589504042012-03-23T13:38:47.390-04:002012-03-23T13:38:47.390-04:00I see David is finally embracing Keynesianism: &qu...I see David is finally embracing Keynesianism: "In the long run, we're all dead. -John Maynard Keynes" <br /><br />The point of Cap and Trade is, as gravymeister observed above, to modify the behavior of major carbon emitters, like heavy industry. <br /><br />Even if 98% of the world's climatologists are wrong (or conspiring in a hoax), what is the harm in structuring the market to encourage better energy development and use, especially among those most aggressively consuming fossil fuels? On the counterpoint, if human-caused global climate change IS occurring, in what way is it wasteful to promote greater energy efficiency and push energy-intensive industries to pursue renewable or at least, non-carbon-based energy solutions, even if developing countries continue to produce carbon emissions until cleaner technology reaches them?<br /><br />It isn't "an enormous waste," no matter how David may try to parse it. His proposition pits willfully obtuse denialism against an embrace of doomsday fatalism-- essentially, "we can't do anything about it, so we might as well live large until we die."BKThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15780381542236932101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-90990305044268930862012-03-23T12:25:06.634-04:002012-03-23T12:25:06.634-04:00IMHO none of those alternatives makes sense. If th...IMHO none of those alternatives makes sense. If the mainstream position on global warming is wrong, then those programs are an enormous waste. <br /><br />OTOH if the mainstream position is right, these programs won't save us. Worldwide CO2 emissions would continue to sharply rise, leading to disaster. So, these programs would still be an enormous waste.David in Calnoreply@blogger.com