tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post47827721900968260..comments2024-03-29T09:38:48.722-04:00Comments on the daily howler: DISAGGREGATION NATION: Molly Ivins made a mistake!<b>bob somerby</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/02963464534685954436noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-54298667604514035832013-06-12T09:18:54.802-04:002013-06-12T09:18:54.802-04:00Maine (98)
2. North Dakota (96)
3. Iowa (93)
4. Ne... Maine (98)<br />2. North Dakota (96)<br />3. Iowa (93)<br />4. New Hampshire (97)<br />5. Montana (unavailable)<br /><br />[...]Molly's right, states need to get rid of their illegal population. Blacks are a different story.cinc210https://www.blogger.com/profile/07356093909391087173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-36860787056680619582013-06-12T09:17:26.900-04:002013-06-12T09:17:26.900-04:00Simple, Texas needs to enforced e-verify and many ...Simple, Texas needs to enforced e-verify and many of the 1.6 million illegal immigrants that have kids will return to Mexico, so the excuse of having a minority population will dropped by as much as 5 to 10 percent.cinc210https://www.blogger.com/profile/07356093909391087173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-87448875972444838802013-03-03T20:52:21.943-05:002013-03-03T20:52:21.943-05:00Its such as you learn my mind! You appear to grasp...Its such as you learn my mind! You appear to grasp a lot about this, like you wrote the e-book in it or something.<br /><br />I think that you simply could do with a few % to power the message home a bit, but instead of that, this is wonderful blog. A fantastic read. I will certainly be back.<br /><br />my site; <a href="http://investmenttradez.wordpress.com/2013/02/26/investment-trading/" rel="nofollow">investment trading</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-68924015536065281042013-02-22T08:58:08.016-05:002013-02-22T08:58:08.016-05:00What's up to every one, because I am in fact k...What's up to every one, because I am in fact keen of reading this weblog's post <br />to be updated daily. It carries good stuff.<br /><br />Here is my site ... <a href="https://getplusfollowers.jux.com/948509" rel="nofollow">get followers</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-40073507979240585672013-02-20T15:25:10.929-05:002013-02-20T15:25:10.929-05:00My brother suggested I might like this blog. He wa...My brother suggested I might like this blog. He was totally right.<br />This post truly made my day. You cann't imagine simply how much time I had spent for this information! Thanks!<br /><br />my web site; <a href="http://avafx9.wordpress.com/2013/02/14/avafx/" rel="nofollow">ava fx</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-34423848126232548862013-02-20T13:49:37.646-05:002013-02-20T13:49:37.646-05:00I all the time emailed this website post page to a...I all the time emailed this website post page to all my associates, since if like to <br />read it then my contacts will too.<br /><br />my web page :: <a href="http://www.revark.com/user/getplusfollowers" rel="nofollow">get followers</a><br /><i>Also see my site</i>: <b><a href="http://www.mycandylove.com/profil/PatrickJoyner" rel="nofollow">get followers</a></b>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-46228709914193828842013-02-19T20:32:56.189-05:002013-02-19T20:32:56.189-05:00Thank you for the good writeup. It in fact was a a...Thank you for the good writeup. It in fact was a amusement <br />account it. Look advanced to more added agreeable from you!<br />However, how could we communicate?<br /><br />Also visit my webpage :: <a href="http://morefollowersont.wordpress.com/2013/02/19/more-followers-on-twitter/" rel="nofollow">get followers</a><br /><i>My website</i> - <b><a href="http://morefollowersont.jigsy.com/" rel="nofollow">get followers</a></b>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-27950606785915972602013-02-19T19:42:53.267-05:002013-02-19T19:42:53.267-05:00Everyone loves what you guys are up too.
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Look, urban legend, yo...And it's all accurate.<br /><br />Look, urban legend, you've been dead wrong in virtually every thing you've said about NAEP during this series.<br /><br />You don't like seeing Ivins corrected? (Apparently in part because it's not fair to correct the dead?!?!)<br /><br />And, she was mostly right, anyway? Whatever!<br /><br />No one, no one at all is really talking about the mis-use of education data - other than Somerby. For that alone, it's a valuable series.<br /><br />Ivins was wrong on this point.<br /><br />You yourself, urban legend, have pretty clearly been taken to school on the whole issue of disaggregation. But still you grouse, over this little point: Leave poor Ivins alone!! Wahh!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-34092049381657416022012-09-28T15:22:13.238-04:002012-09-28T15:22:13.238-04:00“. . . the Rand study heaped praise on the Texas s...“. . . the Rand study heaped praise on the Texas schools. But Rand had disaggregated the data.” <br /><br />“Misleadingly, Ivins did not.”<br /><br />“. . . Ivins’ preferred measure. . .”<br /><br />“Ivins pulled this statistic from a mammoth report”<br /><br />“Ivins dogged Texas for its rank on this single, ill-conceived measure. In essence, she was complaining that Texas had too many minority kids and too many kids with low incomes.”<br /><br /> “Instead, she cherry-picked a single statistic. . .”<br /><br />It's a hell of a lot more than a sidetrack. urban legendnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-52755077429079467172012-09-28T15:15:52.495-04:002012-09-28T15:15:52.495-04:00Feel better now?
I conceded two days before my er...Feel better now?<br /><br />I conceded two days before my error in reacting without engaging the disaggregation argument. Guess you missed that but reacted anyway. <br /><br />The fact remains that the rate of improvement since the mid-90s is not as fast as it has been in the rest of the country. There's a legitimate question whether it represents a real slowing of progress or just a matter that a rate of improvement is bound to slow down when you're already at the top. I see no evidence that you have an answer to that question. Snark doesn't get it done.<br /><br />The fact also remains that the NAEP scores for Texas are high, so the essential point of the post, at least as to Collins, seems valid. Since Ivins was not an education policy analyst, was not writing a book about it, and the overwhelming thrust of her column was about who deserves credit for the enormous progress of Texas schools, with special mention of the disaggregated high scores of minority students, it is a lot less so as to Ivins. It was worth a corrective comment at best, not an attack implying she said a lot more than she did. Invoking her heroic status with progressives as a way to counter any defense of her has no value. <br /><br />Nor did I say nor did I imply that the data are "probably" unreliable. Lower statistical reliability is the inevitable byproduct of breaking a sample into a smaller sample. Lower reliability does not translate into unreliability, and I neither said nor implied that. The point was simply that it is worth examining, and being careful with going too far with language based on the simple assumption that the data shows the truth.<br /><br />I do know how measurable the lag is, and if you bothered to take the time you could, too. I did not claim to know how important it is. One thing it does suggest strongly, however, is that any "reforms" instituted by George Bush and successors beginning in 1995 (when Bush became Governor, a year before the 1996 tests) have not improved the schools much if at all. If anything, when combined with the opinion of the experts -- i.e., the teachers who actually teach children in the schools -- the lag behind the national rate of improvement suggests the possibility that the reforms might have actually truncated Texas' progress. But the lag does not apply to all categories. It's a complex question. urban legendnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-81314396869826349682012-09-28T13:51:55.118-04:002012-09-28T13:51:55.118-04:00Put words in other people's mouths? Who, me?Put words in other people's mouths? Who, me?The Real "Real Other Commenter" Guynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-23094612970056111032012-09-28T13:17:42.041-04:002012-09-28T13:17:42.041-04:00"Then go after Collins!"
Why, yes...
..."Then go after Collins!"<br /><br />Why, yes... <br /><br />Yes, I am too stupid to realize that this column is part of a series that is doing exactly that!<br /><br />I am too stupid to realize that a sidetrack into Ivin's error was probably necessary, because Collins is using it -- trying to ride the deep respect many have for Ivins -- in pursuit of her bullshit agenda.<br /><br />Yes, yes I am too deeply imbedded in my own love affair with the departed Ms. Ivins to allow any correction of her past mistakes.<br /><br />She's dead! How dare you correct her!<br /><br />The nerve!<br /><br />Yes, that's how stupid I am.The Real Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-91595685241316350452012-09-28T13:08:39.791-04:002012-09-28T13:08:39.791-04:00Then go after Collins! If she's taking one se...Then go after Collins! If she's taking one sentence out of 12 year old column and foolishly running with it, then blame her! But to cherry-pick one line you don't like out of an otherwise positive column about Texas schools is crazy. And to say that someone "implicitly praised the schools of Maine because they contained nothing but white kids" when they are dead and can't defend themselves is wrong. Period. The fact that Somerby can't figure that out is scary. <br /><br />Bob, you do good work, but you need an editor and a sounding board deseperately. Somebody who will let you know when you are too stubborn and have gone too far. So Bob, you are too stubborn and you've gone too far. Drop this stupid side-show and go back to the issues at hand.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-70125581976105038792012-09-28T07:54:21.802-04:002012-09-28T07:54:21.802-04:00Data, schmata!Data, schmata!The Real Quakernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-36964599046079772082012-09-28T07:48:20.477-04:002012-09-28T07:48:20.477-04:00Shorter urban-legend:
Everything I said about TX ...Shorter urban-legend:<br /><br />Everything I said about TX two days ago was unfounded bullshit. <br /><br />So now I admit Bob's right, but I imply maybe the data's unreliable, on the basis of zero information.<br /><br />I also QUIBBLE: Sure deserving low income TX kids scores were better than average, and remained better than average as everyone in the nation improved -- but the average is catching up with TX, so TX isn't improving as much, it's "lagging behind" in its rate of improvement! How measurable and important is that "lag" I don't know, and you don't know either!<br /><br /><br />Sure, TX is improving. But some are improving more! TX has an improvement gap!! I can't say how big, or important it is, but I think it retroactively proves Ivins correct!<br /><br />Yup, I now agree "disaggregation is the best way to compare states" -- so Somerby's correct -- but maybe I should leave you with this unfounded thought: the data are probably unreliable, yeah, that's it!<br /><br />You can't make me up, I'm real!The Real Urban Legendnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-37926353808720381232012-09-28T07:19:02.207-04:002012-09-28T07:19:02.207-04:00Despite the outpouring of praise for Ivins -- the ...Despite the outpouring of praise for Ivins -- the mistake is worth noting and correcting.<br /><br />Why?<br /><br />Because it's being used in the present day, by Gail Collins, who quite undeservedly is getting a reputation for *knowing* something about education -- and Texas schools in particular -- being used in service of Collin's own bullsh!t.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-68184708993905354072012-09-28T01:42:46.471-04:002012-09-28T01:42:46.471-04:00That link seems to be broken. Here's where I f...That link seems to be broken. Here's where I found it.<br />http://www.creators.com/opinion/molly-ivins/who-deserves-credit-for-texas-education-improvements.html<br /><br />It's a great column, passing credit around generously for a wide range of contributors of different political persuasions for responding positively to the famous San Antonio equal protection case. The phenomenon being described is the tremendous improvement over a generation, and the point is that George Bush could hardly take credit for improvements between 1990 and 1996. The most you can do is quibble with Ivins' phrasing, but the two references to the aggregate score being "slightly below average" are, to anyone not searching for things to argue with, overwhelmed by the dominant positives about the Texas schools. Moreover, as noted in a comment above, she does do some primitive disaggregation in noting that Texas minorities were outperforming minorities in other states. It is hard to expect more from any journalist. <br /><br />Perhaps Ivins was prescient: for some reason -- like maybe the George Bush accountability "reforms" -- the disaggregated Texas scores for whites, blacks and Hispanics between 1996 and 2011, have been more likely to lag behind the national rate of improvement done: of the 12 "cells" tested, six for each grade level (two subjects, three ethnic groups), Texas improvement beat the national average in four cases, tied it in one case, and lagged behind the national average in seven. For some reason, the spectacular Texas improvement in 8th Grade math by whites and blacks is not matched by similar performance in 4th Grade math. Indeed, it is quite the opposite in math for 4th Graders: each group's improvement substantially lagged behind the national improvement.<br /><br />One potential problem with disaggregation -- which I agree (despite its fundamental flaw of assuming each ethnic group to be the same in each state) is the best way to compare states -- is that it may reduce the reliability of the data. <br />urban legendnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-44729990971980960292012-09-28T00:43:32.328-04:002012-09-28T00:43:32.328-04:00the daily howler
musings on the arcane and my gr...the daily howler <br /><br />musings on the arcane and my grudgescorrectionnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-82089315032133941032012-09-27T23:30:19.903-04:002012-09-27T23:30:19.903-04:00Anon, here's a link to the full text:
http://...Anon, here's a link to the full text:<br /><br />http://www.creators.com/opinion/molly-ivins/who-deserves-credit-for-texas-education-improvements.html<br />Quaker in a Basementnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-26049233730779087792012-09-27T23:23:02.810-04:002012-09-27T23:23:02.810-04:00How would I propose that aggregate dat[a] provide ...How would I propose that aggregate dat[a] provide any insight about this problem?<br /><br />Simple. I don't. If a school system is providing a quality education to all students, there's no problem that requires the special insight of disaggregated data.<br /><br />Pie in the sky? Perhaps. But if a state school system helps <i>create</i> disparate results, we shouldn't excuse them on the basis of...disparate results.<br /><br />As far as "bullshitting myself" goes, I'm not recommending using ONLY aggregated data. I'm seeing value in a comparison of systems on both aggregated and disaggregated results--exactly what Ivins did in the cited passage.Quaker in a Basementnoreply@blogger.com