tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post6587669140421418006..comments2024-03-29T10:17:28.697-04:00Comments on the daily howler: NO STATISTICS NEED APPLY: The Times tries to report the gender wage gap!<b>bob somerby</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/02963464534685954436noreply@blogger.comBlogger54125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-78419347541325247612015-04-02T11:37:25.859-04:002015-04-02T11:37:25.859-04:00RE "it could be as simple as men feeling more...RE "it could be as simple as men feeling more comfortable around other men"<br /><br />"That is widespread and systemic"<br /><br />"It happens everywhere"<br /><br />First, thanks for these ideas, they are certainly more plausible than assuming that American men everywhere automatically assume the role of fundamentalist oppressor in whatever corners of the nation that remain uncorrected by agents of federal law.<br /><br />I agree, it could be as simple as men in every role in every profession and industry naturally preferring the company of other men, but perhaps it's not.<br /><br />And while it's certainly a more plausible theory than positing a widespread, deeply held, male psychological longing for Victorian gender roles and relations, it still doesn't make that much sense when applied to the vast majority of men in every community and station.<br /><br />Why would men fell more comfortable around other men? Aren't men socialized to constantly compete with one another? Isn't the likelihood of a physical confrontation breaking out between men something like thousands of times more probable? Don't men have wives, friends, family that are women, with whom they've freely chosen to spend their time and attention?<br /><br />In fact, isn't it a strange sort of stereotyping that assumes men would naturally bond around such boilerplate items as shared interest in professional sports teams? Can we safely assume such stereotypes when we're social problem solving, generally, or is that exactly the type of cloudy thinking the perpetuation of which we're trying to avoid?<br /><br />If it's not that simple, then we won't solve anything, other than that we might feel better about "doing something" regardless of whether the "policies for making fairer decisions" work or have significant, unintended consequences that make the situation worse.<br /><br />I thought that conservatives tend to apply commonly held, simplifying stereotypes this way to their policy ideas, whereas we on the left are trying to work from a more reality-based, necessarily complicated set of formulas regarding what is or isn't "natural" for people --that's how we came to understand and accept the reality that "feminine" and "masculine" roles weren't some decree by God in the first place!<br /><br />I hope that this discussion has contributed toward our mutual understanding, and look forward to more of your input.<br /><br />Thanks for the response,<br />Stuart Zechmanstuart_zechmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14817215761981204304noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-37346094830864117602015-04-02T08:33:12.961-04:002015-04-02T08:33:12.961-04:00Yes. It has been debunked.
"The 77 cent figu...Yes. It has been debunked.<br /><br />"The 77 cent figure" is garbage.<br /><br />No, "women don't make 77 cents for every dollar a man makes."<br /><br />Like any sane person, if I hear you say "women make 77 cents for every dollar a man makes" I understand you mean they are paid 23% less than men for the same work.<br /><br />You don't have to SAY "the same work." It's quite obviously implied unless you immediately qualify it by saying: <br /><br />"Women make 77 cents for every dollar a man makes! Well, I mean, not for doing the exact same work of course. For whatever work, on on average. When women and men do the same work, with the same seniority, for the same hours, there's still a gap, but it's much, much smaller -- nowhere near 77 cents to the dollar."<br /><br />Which is something that the 77 centers never, never do.<br /><br />So yeah, "the 77 cent figure" is UTTERLY BUNK, useful only for trying to deceive by implication.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-91908261792739827332015-04-02T01:22:35.814-04:002015-04-02T01:22:35.814-04:0010:38 - I thought it was CMike's April Fool...10:38 - I thought it was CMike's April Fool's joke.<br /><br />Wow, he was serious!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-21860390351200974682015-04-01T18:11:34.566-04:002015-04-01T18:11:34.566-04:00Anonymous April 1, 2015 at 10:29 AM says,
>>...Anonymous April 1, 2015 at 10:29 AM says,<br /><br />>>><i>CNN is just trying to get the viewers who like to read about imaginary analysts working on a sprawling campus bursting into tears over a melting intellectual culture.</i><<<<br /><br />Maybe. They sure seem to have <i>Howler</i> regular ZKoD on the hook.<br />CMikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13481861530761114492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-54675395838131284952015-04-01T15:43:02.753-04:002015-04-01T15:43:02.753-04:00Women have made fantastic gains over the last 52 y...Women have made fantastic gains over the last 52 years. They are now more than 50% of the graduates of professional schools with similar representation as lawyers, doctors, dentists, pharmacists and CPAs. They were 1-2% 50 years ago. There is no longer a pink ghetto in which women even with college degrees are relegated to strictly clerical positions and cannot get salaried jobs, as was true 50 years ago. Women are now admitted to trade unions and skilled trades, including plumbing, electrician and similar unions that excluded them 50 years ago. Women can pursue a much wider variety of positions in the military leading to actual line advancement instead of the dead-end clerical jobs they held 50 years ago. Women can now get business loans without a cosigner, rent office, open bank accounts and thus can own and operate small businesses.<br /><br />Such progress doesn't mean there isn't room for more change.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-29584369502062293172015-04-01T11:47:06.395-04:002015-04-01T11:47:06.395-04:00HB,
You should be as skeptical when the defense co...HB,<br />You should be as skeptical when the defense contractors call for war.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-1554664738308543392015-04-01T11:32:07.808-04:002015-04-01T11:32:07.808-04:00Half a day later and still nobody has found an err...Half a day later and still nobody has found an error in the Times report beyond the Editor from Baltimore's objections to what was not in the article.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-69116578844810713372015-04-01T10:38:17.928-04:002015-04-01T10:38:17.928-04:00CMike, your comment @ 4:10 is extremely bizarre.
...CMike, your comment @ 4:10 is extremely bizarre.<br /><br />I didn't see any defense of Maddow from Humble Ed. He simply asked you, who went to the trouble of posting three long cut and paste pieces of transcripts, some questions. Then he followed up on your answers. And he never mentioned Obama, nor did anyone in this subthread.<br /><br />Did you misplace some marbles in the wee hours? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-24691083208734199862015-04-01T10:29:15.248-04:002015-04-01T10:29:15.248-04:00CNN is just trying to get the viewers who like to ...CNN is just trying to get the viewers who like to read about imaginary analysts working on a sprawling campus bursting into tears over a melting intellectual culture. Or perhaps the decision to put the video up was made by a clueless youngish female scribe with an Ivy League degree who spent a summer abroad. We just don't know.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-91222205193001782942015-04-01T08:03:30.336-04:002015-04-01T08:03:30.336-04:00Seasoned politician Al Gore was sitting down for a...Seasoned politician Al Gore was sitting down for a pre-arranged interview on national TV for which he was (or should have been) well prepared when Blitzer stunned him with this "gotcha" question:<br /><br />"Why should Democrats looking at the Democratic nomination — the process, support you instead of Bill Bradley, a friend of yours, a former colleague in the Senate? What do you have to bring to this that he doesn’t necessarily bring to this process?"<br /><br />To which Gore answered in full:<br /><br />Well, I will be — I’ll be offering my vision when my campaign begins, and it’ll be comprehensive and sweeping, and I hope that it’ll be compelling enough to draw people toward it. I feel that it will be.<br /><br />"But it will emerge from my dialogue with the American people. I’ve traveled to every part of this country during the last six years. During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet. I took the initiative in moving forward a whole range of initiatives that have proven to be important to our country’s economic growth, environmental protection, improvements in our educational system. During a quarter century of public service, including most of it long before I came into my current job, I have worked to try to improve the quality of life in our country and in our world. And what I’ve seen during that experience is an emerging future that’s very exciting about which I’m very optimistic and toward which I want to lead."<br /><br />Yep, we owe our entire "quality of life" to the "initiative" Al Gore took during his service in Congress.<br /><br />As for Maddow? She was engaged in a heated debate on live TV, never said (by your own admission) what Somerby has accused her (and other "pseudo-liberals") of not only saying, but saying repeatedly, <br /><br />Yet, she stands convicted of deceiving poor CMike into thinking she said that.<br /><br />Now here is where I am confused. Somerby took an indisputable statistic (Women working full time are paid 77 cents (now 78.8) on the dollar) and added "for the same or equal work" to it, claimed that others say it all the time, can't find a single instance of it, yet still repeats his claim.<br /><br />And you buy it, even going so far as to say that even if they never said it, that is what they are deceiving "people" into thinking.<br /><br />Well, who is deceiving whom? <br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-82180111722271982532015-04-01T06:42:43.936-04:002015-04-01T06:42:43.936-04:00It's surprising to me to see that video on the...It's surprising to me to see <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMAcRHRlTUI" rel="nofollow">that video</a> on the CNN site. I wonder if they're going to work that one into the on air, er on cable, rotation.CMikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13481861530761114492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-46061768931833195312015-04-01T04:10:51.571-04:002015-04-01T04:10:51.571-04:00Humble Ed,
There wasn't any confusion about w...Humble Ed,<br /><br />There wasn't any confusion about what Al Gore said when he said it. It only became a liability for Gore when the RNC resurrected it in cropped and then modified form. But you know all this. You're here to put on a show of being obnoxious in defense of Maddow. I guess all those Obama devotees each have to be some place these days acting out like an Obama devotee- so here you are.CMikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13481861530761114492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-1879178775157396582015-04-01T00:47:06.333-04:002015-04-01T00:47:06.333-04:00OMB
Be careful what you ask for. When you do a c...OMB<br /><br />Be careful what you ask for. When you do a comparison of how the U.S, fares on wage equity internationally we once again find ourselves beaten badly by those nasty old Finns and Poles.<br /><br />"U.S. is 65th in world on gender pay gap"<br /><br />That's according to the World Economic Forum. But that is based on a study relying on data from CEO's.<br /> <br />http://money.cnn.com/2014/10/27/news/economy/global-gender-pay-gap/<br /><br />What happens when working people do the study?<br /><br />"Of 38 countries assessed in the International Labour Organization's Global Wage Report 2014/15, released Friday, Americans had the widest reported total gap, at 36 percent. That's a bigger paycheck bite than the Census Bureau's most recent estimate, which has women earning 78 cents for every dollar men earned. In comparison, the ILO report's front-runner, Sweden, has a pay gap of just 4 percent."<br /><br />http://www.cnbc.com/id/102243795<br /><br />We fear if BOB adopted your recommendation he would try and explain away the poor showing of the US by stating those other countries don't have all the black and Hispanic workers the US has that we pay less. If you compare only our white men's wages to white women, surely the One True BOB could argue, we do much better. ZKoDnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-71810585582116253752015-04-01T00:33:30.013-04:002015-04-01T00:33:30.013-04:00Sorry CMike, but Al Gore was asked a question and ...Sorry CMike, but Al Gore was asked a question and he gave a calm, deliberate, and uninterrupted answer. You don't think he confused viewers? Hell man, the stupidity of his comment helped turn him into a joke that is so firmly associated with him that when you Google his name the first thing that comes up is "Al Gore internet."<br /><br />Rachel Maddow was interrupted before she could complete a sentence and the interruptions continued throughout. the best you can do to support your conclusion of her confusing people is to find her saying "some of us believe that women are getting paid less than men for doing the same work" which is an expression of belief that by virtually every measure in almost every profession turns out to be true.<br /><br />You just can't bring yourself to apply the same standard for some reason.Humble Edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17962379333762215386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-20691840804820070722015-04-01T00:23:27.103-04:002015-04-01T00:23:27.103-04:00The Census Bureau just updated it's numbers. ...The Census Bureau just updated it's numbers. The Wage Gap is now 78.8 cents on the dollar for women compared to men.<br /><br />http://census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2015/cb15-tps22.html<br /><br />The figure has improved from 59.8% when President Kennedy signed the Equal Pay Act in 1963.<br /><br />I think Bob Somerby should treat the Pay Gap like he treats the Achievement Gap in public schools. He should complain that the press does not report the fantastic gains women have been making over the last 52 years.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-56582354036551658772015-03-31T23:45:18.372-04:002015-03-31T23:45:18.372-04:00Humble Ed,
As to whether Al Gore might have confu...Humble Ed,<br /><br />As to whether Al Gore might have confused viewers with what he said, the answer is no. He preceded that part of his comment with "During my service in the United States Congress..." not "During my years in Washington while I was tinkering in the garage..." and after the comment became the basis a manufactured controversy he did not then go on to host a show segment during which he further confused the issue.CMikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13481861530761114492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-50430453756379894972015-03-31T23:27:20.078-04:002015-03-31T23:27:20.078-04:00Let's take another measure of honesty @ 10:48
...Let's take another measure of honesty @ 10:48<br /><br />"According to this treasured statistic, women are paid 77 cents on the dollar, compared to men, for doing the same or equal work.<br /><br />Can we talk? No one who works in the field thinks that’s a valid statistic. But we pseudo-liberals love the claim. We just love to repeat it."<br /><br />Name a pseudo liberal Bob has ever correctly identified who has made the claim. Name a pseudo liberal who Bob has indentified who has repeated it.<br /><br />Now I will repeat a treasured statistic. It was mine. I presented it in a comment yesterday when Somerby first headlined a post: <strong> The New York Times can’t handle stats!</strong><br /><br />"Statistics on "New York Times Can't Handle Stats"<br /><br />Number of NY Times articles linked by Bob: 4<br />Number of statistical errors identified by Bob: 0"<br /><br />Bob has taken a second bite at the Big Apples's Big Paper.<br /><br />Can you or any of his readers point to a single statistic the Times presented in error based on this post?<br /><br />Don't repeat what Bob says they should have included but did not. That's Bob's favorite tactic when he is caught lying to you, as he was in his own combox. Tell me what statistics they got wrong. <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-48749203864521885282015-03-31T23:10:15.142-04:002015-03-31T23:10:15.142-04:00Find a mom to give you a name and you won't be...Find a mom to give you a name and you won't be so lonely and sad Anonymous @10:55PM.CMikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13481861530761114492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-2779518650303346622015-03-31T23:10:07.005-04:002015-03-31T23:10:07.005-04:00CMike, let us use your standard. Despite the fact...CMike, let us use your standard. Despite the fact that Maddow never said the "treasured statistic" in the way Bob has repeatedly alleged, you say: "Might Rachel Maddow have confused viewers into thinking that women make 77 cents on the dollar, compared to men for doing the same or equal work?- the answer would be yes."<br /><br />By saying "I took the initiative in creating the internet" might Al Gore have confused viewers into thinking he claimed he invented the internet?Humble Edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17962379333762215386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-5350557572662977172015-03-31T23:07:23.685-04:002015-03-31T23:07:23.685-04:00Stuart, it could be as simple as men feeling more ...Stuart, it could be as simple as men feeling more comfortable around other men, hanging around with men more than women, and when opportunities arise naturally thinking of their buddies first. That is widespread and systemic without being deliberate. It happens everywhere there are not policies for making fairer decisions.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-28780236418637424842015-03-31T22:55:33.190-04:002015-03-31T22:55:33.190-04:00"Did Rachel Maddow ever say women make "..."Did Rachel Maddow ever say women make "77 cents on the dollar, compared to men, for doing the same or equal work." The answer to that was no."<br /><br />Great. That dispensed with, can you find ANYBODY who EVER said: "According to this treasured statistic, women are paid 77 cents on the dollar, compared to men,for doing the same or equal work.."<br /><br />Because if you CAN"T, then you will be forced to accuse Somerby of the very same sin of "confusing" you.<br /><br />And please. Speak for yourself. Not these other "viewers" who exist in your head.<br /><br />You see, I don't consider either Maddow or Somerby to be so "confusing." <br /><br />And in Somerby's case, his whole Maddow schtick was nothing more than clickbait as his blog continues to sink slowly in the West. And like every other time he has tried to goose a flagging career, it has failed. Miserably.<br /><br />You, however, were "confused" into thinking he was more that that. Why, he even summons the "great souls" and wonders why everyone else except him can't model their behavior.<br /><br />I can see how all that can be "confusing" to you. You might try growing up, waking up and smelling the coffee.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-86388415800388395502015-03-31T22:48:27.735-04:002015-03-31T22:48:27.735-04:00Yesterday: "Sexual Assault Ain't So Bad!&...Yesterday: "Sexual Assault Ain't So Bad!"<br /><br />You are deeply dishonest.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-90274251141866144202015-03-31T22:20:13.980-04:002015-03-31T22:20:13.980-04:00@4:57 says incorrectly:
Poor CMike. Forced to adm...@4:57 says incorrectly:<br /><br /><i>Poor CMike. Forced to admit that Maddow did not say "same work" in the link he provided.</i><br /><br />Actually, Maddow most certainly did say -and you can put quotes around it- "same work" and that at the link I provided.<br /><br />Let me bold it for you:<br /><br />RACHEL MADDOW:<br /><b>***[QUOTE]</b> But it is important, I think, the interruption is important, I think, because now we know, at least from both of your perspectives, that women are not faring worse than men in the economy. That women aren't getting paid less for equal work. I think that's a serious difference in factual understanding of the world.<br /><br />But given that some of us believe that women are getting paid less than men for doing the <b>same work,</b> there is something called the Fair Pay Act. <b>***[END QUOTE]</b><br /><br />That followed the back and forth between Maddow and Castellanos which began when she said, "...Women in this country still make 77 cents on the dollar for what men make...."<br /><br />To waste everyone's time, earlier you had specifically asked with the quotation marks: <i>Did Rachel Maddow ever say women make "77 cents on the dollar, compared to men, for doing the same or equal work."</i> The answer to that was no. If you had asked: Might Rachel Maddow have confused viewers into thinking that women make 77 cents on the dollar, compared to men for doing the same or equal work?- the answer would be yes, and I think she thinks that confusion is useful to her argument. <br /><br /><br />CMikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13481861530761114492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-6973069012865678422015-03-31T20:18:47.282-04:002015-03-31T20:18:47.282-04:00Nice work, Stuart. Just for laughs, I'd like t...Nice work, Stuart. Just for laughs, I'd like to add a couple of more observations. The first is that using claims that are not substantiated but are treated as valid because they fit the agenda of the claimant is a classic argument from ignorance. I have a friend who keeps insisting the the infamous lost Malaysian airline must have been captured by aliens because he see alien conspiracies everywhere the same way a feminist constantly sees patriarchy. My friend would be regarded by most people as a crackpot the other a possible women's studies professor. The second, which is directly related and devised by a better wag than me is to note, "the multiple of anecdotal evidence is not data."<br /><br />If it was actually typical that women got paid 77 cents on the dollar for doing the exact same work this would be true to a greater or lesser degree virtually everywhere you looked. Rachel Maddow ore the National Organization of Women would be able to rattle off countless examples of women working alongside men doing the exact same job but being paid 23% less. And yet this does not happen. Virtually no examples are offered. It's like rape culture. Feminists go looking for a case to match their paranoid and hateful vision of men come up with Duke lacrosse, Hofstra University, Dominque Strauss Khan and, most recently, the University of Virginia, have all of these cases blow up in their faces by turning out to be hoaxes and yet, w/o showing the slightest embarrassment or shame or any sort of intelligent self doubt go on insisting that WE MUST BELIEVE THE VICTIM or be guilty of supporting rape culture. <br /><br />Feminism is a crackpot, man-hating cult that simply refuses to acknowledge even the possibility of reasonable doubt. According to them we MUST LISTEN AND BELIEVE, no matter how many times they turn out to wrong or obviously running on empty. <br /><br />They are a huge distraction from real issues and, as such, among the best friends Republicans ever had. If global warming does eventually run riot and destroys civilization, for example, they will deserve a huge amount of the blame for making liberalism look so goddam stupid. Hieronymus Braintreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05303938809800287873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-63563423200550144892015-03-31T19:38:24.285-04:002015-03-31T19:38:24.285-04:00Right Strunk, and you're just the person to be...Right Strunk, and you're just the person to be suggesting proper comment thread etiquette. CMikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13481861530761114492noreply@blogger.com