tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post8081669626822129222..comments2024-03-29T10:53:25.252-04:00Comments on the daily howler: MAN AND MANDARIN: The pitiful ballad of Cokie and Sam!<b>bob somerby</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/02963464534685954436noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-65032451744048598942013-02-28T00:22:01.060-05:002013-02-28T00:22:01.060-05:00Maybe unintentionally plays into a larger racism. ...Maybe unintentionally plays into a larger racism. Fair point, given the larger culture. Personally, I think of Mandarins as a highly educated class administering an imperial system which relied on them to such an extent that the Mandarins could compete with the imperial leaders or play them against one another. Loosely analogous to Magi or abbots and bishops, sometimes, in other systems in other places.... But for many people, if the term has any associations, it may be with Charlie Chan. mchnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-10097061893163634802013-02-27T22:45:23.359-05:002013-02-27T22:45:23.359-05:00I can't be the only one who thinks that using ...I can't be the only one who thinks that using the term "mandarins" as a pejorative is a little, ummm -- racist?majnebnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-11079006998638588162013-02-27T20:51:18.382-05:002013-02-27T20:51:18.382-05:00WOW! You know what this tells me? MSNBC is becomin...WOW! You know what this tells me? MSNBC is becoming a real problem for the Kochs, and now their propagandist is trying to paint them as "mandarins."<br /><br />And Somberby has taken the bait.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-29398130612885294432013-02-27T19:59:56.591-05:002013-02-27T19:59:56.591-05:00For the remoteness of the likelihood that McArdle ...For the remoteness of the likelihood that McArdle has seen the light and is not just playing people like Bob (among others):<br /><br />http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/09/project-s-h-a-m-e-on-megan-mcardle-portrait-of-a-taxpayer-subsidized-libertarian.htmlmchnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-2120812842073072842013-02-27T17:58:52.263-05:002013-02-27T17:58:52.263-05:00Megan McArdle has so discredited herself in so man...Megan McArdle has so discredited herself in so many ways with just about everybody that she's become almost invisible (blessedly so). This piece may be an attempt by her to regain some credibility and visibility --- credibility and visibility she absolutely does not deserve. Mr. Somerby only discredits himself by promoting her (self-serving, I am convinced) attempt at rehabilitation. He could make the larger points he seeks to make here without appealing to McArdle.<br /><br />Next we'll be getting posts from Mr. Somerby praising Luke Russert for denouncing the Mandarin class and nepotism in television journalism while speaking from his perch at NBC/MSNBC.<br /><br />Okay, okay, let's leave room for growth. Maybe McMegan has begun to see the light. Let's just not start assuming so till we have further evidence. <br /><br />Btw, notice the way McArdle's past behavior as a "journalist" matters not to Mr. Somerby. Were this Joan Walsh, however -- can you imagine? mchnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-37576728930092003982013-02-27T17:43:09.676-05:002013-02-27T17:43:09.676-05:00Well, at the risk of violating Godwin's Law, I...Well, at the risk of violating Godwin's Law, I am sure there were passages of Mein Kampf that weren't as bad as the rest of the book.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-84207019607117153212013-02-27T16:33:15.915-05:002013-02-27T16:33:15.915-05:00"Sure, these are good points worth discussing..."Sure, these are good points worth discussing, but a "mandarin" class has been pretty much in control of just about everything, including media, since at least the dawn of the Industrial Age if not before." <br />This feels like too broad a brush for me, almost to the point of evasion. Were Rockefeller, Carnegie, Ford, Hearst, Morgan, etc. "mandarins" of the last Gilded Age ? If so exactly what do you mean by mandarin ? <br />If not, then who are you are referring to from that time? <br /><br />As for Presidential elections, yes, of course they are all important, but they are not all equally important. I agree that Reagan's win in 1980 changed the country dramatically, but really, it was almost inevitable. The country had been heading rightward for a while and wanted someone like Reagan and they got it. There was nothing the liberal media of the time was going to do to stop it. But 2000 was very different. A fat and lazy and smug media - including supposed liberals - helped give us that callow faux Texan for President and he was a complete disaster. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-40783802074602772432013-02-27T15:50:24.984-05:002013-02-27T15:50:24.984-05:00A rare moment of clarity from the erstwhile "...A rare moment of clarity from the erstwhile "Jane Galt" who was all about objectivism and Libertarianism in the past. Has she really seen the light? We'll see.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-80602075139332655562013-02-27T14:57:43.460-05:002013-02-27T14:57:43.460-05:00Wait a minute . . . Am I conflating McCardle with ...Wait a minute . . . Am I conflating McCardle with Amity Shlaes? Or is no conflation possible there?urban legendnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-10466441603009034212013-02-27T14:51:31.100-05:002013-02-27T14:51:31.100-05:00Content-free snarks from the regulars aside, I agr...Content-free snarks from the regulars aside, I agree this is a worthwhile analysis by McCardle. I find most of her work extremely disagreeable, but who else with a platform like hers is saying it? Her right-wing apologetics are obnoxious precisely because they fall squarely within the phenomenon she describes in this piece. Maybe this is step one towards a more realistic perspective. urban legendnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-473195932490347862013-02-27T14:39:29.196-05:002013-02-27T14:39:29.196-05:00And the value of this snark is. . . ?
And, by the...And the value of this snark is. . . ?<br /><br />And, by the way, where did the word "brilliant" or even its rough equivalent appear?urban legendnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-19365528761854053552013-02-27T13:47:17.734-05:002013-02-27T13:47:17.734-05:00Congratulations on missing yet another obvious poi...Congratulations on missing yet another obvious point.Quaker in a Basementnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-45920684096315122352013-02-27T13:41:01.246-05:002013-02-27T13:41:01.246-05:00"First, to what extent has an ability to jump..."First, to what extent has an ability to jump through the right institutional hoops as opposed to original thinking led to their success ?"<br /><br />And again, this is different today from any other point in human history how?<br /><br />"Second, and somewhat relatedly, how concerned should we be with their lack of experience or awareness of much of the world outside their "mandarin" training ?"<br /><br />Ditto.<br /><br />Sure, these are good points worth discussing, but a "mandarin" class has been pretty much in control of just about everything, including media, since at least the dawn of the Industrial Age if not before.<br /><br />In fact, look at how many of the "Founding Fathers" could be called "mandarins" under the definition that McArdle has used that Somerby thinks is some brilliant, new revelation.<br /><br />And 2000 was "the most consequential election in recent history"?<br /><br />How far back do you want to go? I thought that 1980 was pretty consequential with it's ushering in of the "Reagan Revolution" and his building, through using social issues as wedges, his coalition of working class with the "mandarin" class.<br /><br />I also thought that 1992 and 1996 were also pretty consequential, given that those elections gave us the greatest peacetime economic expansion in history while turning record deficit budgets into surpluses.<br /><br />And God only knows where we'd be if the 2008 and 2012 elections turned out differently.<br /><br />In short, EVERY presidential election is pretty doggone "consequential."<br /><br /> <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-22195909356962126302013-02-27T13:34:26.749-05:002013-02-27T13:34:26.749-05:00Excellent, excellent posting. Megan McCardle thou...Excellent, excellent posting. Megan McCardle though I may object to other writings here strikes me as excellent as well.<br /><br />LTRAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-56070327079008944592013-02-27T13:31:38.824-05:002013-02-27T13:31:38.824-05:00If you go to big media for info, then you will lik...If you go to big media for info, then you will likely get it from McArdle and her fellow "mandarins." (It's hard to see any other way for large corporations to operate that wouldn't be worse.)<br /><br />If McArdle were going to write something useful, it would say not to visit any site where she can be found: Daily Beast, The Atlantic, Economist, etc. Instead go read Marcy Wheeler or Greenwald or even TDH. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-47900471106829444092013-02-27T12:58:17.362-05:002013-02-27T12:58:17.362-05:00If you are reading TDH then you already know about...If you are reading TDH then you already know about Bob's obsession with the events leading up to the 2000 election. Bob seems to have this quaint idea that it was the most consequential election in recent history as it may have helped lead to 9/11, and definitely led to two ongoing unpaid for wars in Iraq and Afghanistan as well as helping to usher in the worst recession in 75 years. Silly Bob for wondering where the supposedly liberal media was and what they were up to in 1999-2000. Now we have some new young Turks, mostly ostensibly liberal, on the scene and Megan McCardle has asked some intersting questions about them. Here are two I took away. First, to what extent has an ability to jump through the right institutional hoops as opposed to original thinking led to their success ? Second, and somewhat relatedly, how concerned should we be with their lack of experience or awareness of much of the world outside their "mandarin" training ? That it is Megan McCardle who has provoked this should be immaterial. They are either good points worth discussing or not. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-74505929024231127722013-02-27T11:52:44.169-05:002013-02-27T11:52:44.169-05:00So how did Sam and Cokie end up as establishment l...So how did Sam and Cokie end up as establishment loving, content-free careerists who always hew to the Washington Insider line? Doesn't that make them mandarins? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-45417148170760891022013-02-27T11:16:40.149-05:002013-02-27T11:16:40.149-05:00These mandarins never stopped being pro-choice, an...<i>These mandarins never stopped being pro-choice, and so they were always listed as liberals.</i><br /><br />That's not the only reason. Cokie and George came from strongly Democratic backgrounds. Cokie's father, Hale Boggs, was a leading Democrat in Congress, rising to House Majority Leader. IIRC her mother and her sister were later elected as Democrats. George Stephanopoulos was a senior political advisor to Bill Clinton.<br /><br />Imagine how liberals would feel if our "unbiased" news was being presented by Karl Rove and Jackie Gingrich.David in Calnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-58090044397073632102013-02-27T10:19:14.974-05:002013-02-27T10:19:14.974-05:00Give the prize to the person who predicted that th...Give the prize to the person who predicted that this multi-day examination of McArdle's allegedly brilliant blog post would soon turn into what someone said 13 years ago.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com