tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post8256713385922528886..comments2024-03-28T10:22:25.136-04:00Comments on the daily howler: TIMES AND SCHOOLS: How severe is New York City's crisis?<b>bob somerby</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/02963464534685954436noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-72534106260209624162022-05-23T10:42:19.793-04:002022-05-23T10:42:19.793-04:009:49,
Like you, everyone who doesn't think, is...9:49,<br />Like you, everyone who doesn't think, is an idiot.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-57446237556241848632022-05-23T08:46:52.347-04:002022-05-23T08:46:52.347-04:00racist -- definition:
"a person who is preju...racist -- definition:<br /><br />"a person who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized"Not a rodenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02216459357112547141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-31841631976979914012022-05-22T21:49:29.123-04:002022-05-22T21:49:29.123-04:00Everyone who doesn't think like I do is a raci...Everyone who doesn't think like I do is a racist.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-22017434666359670082022-05-22T11:05:45.232-04:002022-05-22T11:05:45.232-04:00This debate about how to teach reading is especial...This debate about how to teach reading is especially intense because Lucy Calkins is on faculty at Columbia and her program has had a lot of influence in the NYC schools. She is now changing her program to include more phonics, but it is still based on the myth of the natural reader (that reading is as natural as speaking). Not all children learn to read easily, and the efficacy of phonics for such children is part of the science of reading. <br /><br />The NY Times discusses this dispute today:<br /><br />https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/22/us/reading-teaching-curriculum-phonics.html<br /><br />Somerby has ignored it. Somerby's own method, as described above, is similar to the Calkins approach, where you find interesting books and encourage kids to read a lot under the assumption that reading emerges naturally with practice. While some kids do learn to read that way, others do not. There needs to be a different approach to help those who are not natural readers, as the NY Times article explains.Not a rodenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02216459357112547141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-4155701044947401752022-05-22T10:34:09.121-04:002022-05-22T10:34:09.121-04:00Looking at 2019 NAEP reading scores for those with...Looking at 2019 NAEP reading scores for those with learning disabilites in NYC, their mean score is 183. That puts them well below the Basic level cutoff of 210. The 2019 scores are also significantly below the score for 2002 of 194. The scores have been significantly lower than 2002 for the past 5 administrations of the test (since 2011). <br /><br />Somerby has questioned whether this constitutes a literacy crisis (he actually said literary, but that is perhaps a typo). Given that those who are illiterate are overrepresented in prison populations, I think this is an important problem to be addressing. It is difficult for me to see how Somerby can be seriously arguing that the new Mayor shouldn't be trying to address reading problems in the public schools. <br /><br />Overall, the bottom 10% are the only group showing decreases in scores in the long term trend analysis. That suggests decreased attention to helping those with serious learning problems. I consider it admirable that NYC's new Mayor wants to address that problem.Not a rodenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02216459357112547141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-37157565543062492792022-05-22T09:25:03.656-04:002022-05-22T09:25:03.656-04:00@4:45 falsifies his own statement with his own com...@4:45 falsifies his own statement with his own comment. <br /><br />Neither the NAEP nor the state test is intended to diagnose reading problems. You need assessment by a specialist for that -- which is what the article was saying can cost over $1000 and is unaffordable for low income parents, and the school district presumably. That suggests that at least part of the gap is related to the different incomes of white and black parents. The latter are more likely to afford the help needed by students who are struggling with reading, who are estimated to be 10-20% of all students.<br /><br />Somerby seems to be unaware that this latest NAEP (2019) is the first time the schools have been permitted to include special ed students and English language learners among the kids tested. It likely makes a difference whether NYC chose to do so or not, if you are going to compare across cities, urban vs rural schools, and across ethnic groups (Hispanic vs white vs black), and makes it problematic to compare current students vs past students.<br /><br />I am curious to see whether Somerby blithely presents his figures without taking that into consideration. It will be fun watching the big NAEP expert fall on his face. The connection between NAEP and learning disabilities is so tenuous as to be ridiculous anyway, but Somerby keeps promising to make some point using those scores, which I think are largely irrelevant to this discussion.Not a rodenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02216459357112547141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-5922258453597054882022-05-22T09:22:35.998-04:002022-05-22T09:22:35.998-04:00“You can't measure a child's "reading...“You can't measure a child's "reading level" the same way you can measure her height.”<br /><br />Isn’t the naep attempting to meaure just that?<br /><br />And aren’t those exams that get people into advanced schools like NYC’s specialized high schools attempting to measure this? If Somerby really believes a test can’t truly measure a child’s reading level, then doesn’t that open the door to the possibility that the test is perhaps a flawed or incomplete measure of student ability?mhnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-41974187464364763892022-05-22T08:10:08.399-04:002022-05-22T08:10:08.399-04:00“we had come to believe that the best way for kids...“we had come to believe that the best way for kids to learn to read and write was by doing a lot of reading and writing,”<br /><br />What about phonics?<br /><br />Is he talking about kids who cannot yet read?<br /><br />The three girls A, B, and C (in fifth/sixth grade) seem to have been interested in reading and had the ability already. <br /><br />What about the other students? Did “a lot of reading” teach kids who couldn’t read well and weren’t interested? <br /><br />How did Somerby address the achievement gaps? <br /><br />Does Somerby have any experience teaching very young kids to read? <br /><br />“we would spend time, every day, just letting everybody do that, in whatever manner they chose.”<br /><br />Did his students actually learn anything this way, particularly the weaker ones? <br /><br />Did he ever study any techniques for teaching reading and writing? He “came to believe” his method was the best. Did he consult any education experts? mhnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-44383807785019463512022-05-22T04:45:05.827-04:002022-05-22T04:45:05.827-04:00As far as commenters go, they don't get any mo...As far as commenters go, they don't get any more ignorant and partisan than mh.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-16059511329066710712022-05-21T22:06:44.072-04:002022-05-21T22:06:44.072-04:00You were the one who complained about state tests ...You were the one who complained about state tests not “pointing the way to reducing gaps”. Has the naep pointed the way to this? mhnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-80803882993360024152022-05-21T21:24:42.564-04:002022-05-21T21:24:42.564-04:00I didn't know that it was the function of exam...I didn't know that it was the function of exams to close score gaps. Much as it is not the purpose of blood tests per se to reduce anemia.Fred Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00107868007693972360noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-46812279384811342792022-05-21T18:24:16.393-04:002022-05-21T18:24:16.393-04:00And naep testing has been around for 40-50 years. ...And naep testing has been around for 40-50 years. How exactly has it helped teachers and students? Has it ended the gaps?mhnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-47077422362905910562022-05-21T17:54:28.567-04:002022-05-21T17:54:28.567-04:00NAEP allows for trend analysis. These exams are n...NAEP allows for trend analysis. These exams are not individual or school-level measures. That is, the do not profess to be more than what they are. <br /><br />They take about an hour to administer to a sample of students (approx. 3500 each in Reading and Math in NYS) every two years. They are well-calibrated and credibly reflect the nature of student learning--incremental movement over time, rather than the roller coaster ride we get from different test publishers who deliver statewide results at high cost and DO NOT answer questions about student achievement or school effectiveness -- a massively costly enterprise with no ROI. (See my article.)<br /><br />Moreover, when the spring test scores are reported over the summer, they have little, if any instructional value. It's time for the feds to give up on their testing mandate, which has provided them no mechanism of accountability and coerced states to administer testing programs that have not pointed the way to reducing the scoring gaps between minority and white students.Fred Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00107868007693972360noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-64886258791460766112022-05-21T13:43:40.158-04:002022-05-21T13:43:40.158-04:00The point of describing A, B, & C is to show t...The point of describing A, B, & C is to show that A & B wanted to keep in touch with Somerby -- he is bragging. His description of what the girls were doing in his class says nothing good about his attempts to help them. It illustrates that he didn't know what to do with them, other than to keep them busy. He doesn't say so, but he is illustrating what the new program will replace, hopefully, in the NYC schools.Not a rodenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02216459357112547141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-14032914625334137362022-05-21T13:21:20.940-04:002022-05-21T13:21:20.940-04:00Naep scores cannot be tracked at an individual sch...Naep scores cannot be tracked at an individual school or student level. Please explain why you think they are preferable to or better than the state tests. mhnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-13868854689444822442022-05-21T13:20:58.626-04:002022-05-21T13:20:58.626-04:00I am not ascribing this to him. He has said it in ...I am not ascribing this to him. He has said it in so many words when discussing the intransigent gaps on the NAEP. He has repeatedly pointed out that despite increasing scores, the gaps remain. What do you think he means by that? He then goes on to disparage any attempts to address the gaps. <br /><br />If Somerby's name were David, he would sound just like David in Cal, who never misses an opportunity to tell us that Head Start is a waste of money.<br /><br />I'm not making this up about him.Not a rodenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02216459357112547141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-3447349889462859832022-05-21T13:17:02.464-04:002022-05-21T13:17:02.464-04:00I am feeling sorry for student C, who Somerby clea...I am feeling sorry for student C, who Somerby clearly doesn't like as well as A and B (his clear favorite). Bet she was the one who wanted to go to Yale.Not a rodenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02216459357112547141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-20479355168468414672022-05-21T13:14:38.828-04:002022-05-21T13:14:38.828-04:00See how easy it is *to* insinuate?See how easy it is *to* insinuate?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-31335924536891675352022-05-21T13:12:43.982-04:002022-05-21T13:12:43.982-04:00"I think he acquired the belief that black ki..."I think he acquired the belief that black kids can't learn"<br /><br />I think it's odd that you ascribe such horrible beliefs to Somerby, seemingly out of nowhere. I can't help but think there's something freudian going on. Are these Bob's thoughts, or your repressed thoughts that you project on Bob?<br /><br />See how easy it is insinuate?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-62304621292802037112022-05-21T13:08:31.772-04:002022-05-21T13:08:31.772-04:00Dear Howler.
Thought you might be interested in t...Dear Howler.<br /><br />Thought you might be interested in the following op-ed that the Daily News ran on March 29, the day NY State's Testing Program began to be given to 1.2 million 3rd through 8th grade students.<br /><br />The title: "Admit it, testing our kids has been a failure." tells you the story. The piece calls attention to the emperor's clothes.<br /><br />https://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/ny-oped-admit-it-testing-failure-20220329-dky7dlp6krgpffx54stcdyghtq-story.html<br /><br />No need to engage in any discussion involving the nonsense data that the testing program has generated for 20 years--since NCLB. The use of the state test results to measure achievement, student progress or sub-group scoring gaps remains a mandated waste of time that belies the worthlessness of this dead-end exercise.<br /><br />NAEP offers the kind of assessment model we should be pursuing as part of a composite that gives much weight to student performance in class all year long.<br /><br />ReplyDelete<br />Fred Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00107868007693972360noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-44228812931058594492022-05-21T12:57:50.132-04:002022-05-21T12:57:50.132-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Fred Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00107868007693972360noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-81102906276146092702022-05-21T12:44:34.961-04:002022-05-21T12:44:34.961-04:00David, you are misunderstanding the head start stu...David, you are misunderstanding the head start studies. They show benefits in non-academic measurements that do last. The academic benefits disappear because the support for the children disappears when the program stops. <br /><br />BLM has nothing to do with increases in black murders. Gang intervention programs DO decrease black murders by addressing violence in their communities. Most experts consider this to be caused by the drug trade, which was not started by black people, and certainly not started by BLM.Not a rodenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02216459357112547141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-43477102753451554482022-05-21T12:35:37.663-04:002022-05-21T12:35:37.663-04:00It was mostly likely the same (or a similar one), ...It was mostly likely the same (or a similar one), because I am of that age. If you stop trying new initiatives, it will be hard to make progress. Education does implement new stuff all the time, but it has also made impressive strides over the past 30 years. Mocking the changes strikes me as self-defeating in the face of such obvious progress (across all racial groups). As I pointed out elsewhere, this particular program uses an approach that has been widely applied in private schools. Somerby found a dismissive remark about inconclusive studies in Wikipedia and stopped reading. There is controversy about the term dyslexia and it is also difficult to do conclusive education studies because of the inability to manipulate variables and show causality, but that doesn't mean you don't try new things. <br /><br />There are some teachers who dislike new programs and resist inservice training and requirements for revised curricula and methods. They want to keep doing the same things they have always done, and they are convinced they work because of their focus on the kids who learn well. Somerby will always get laughs from a comedy routine that is critical of new initiatives. We also had them at the college level and they were revealed to us in the meetings we had just before the start of each school year. It is easy to get cynical about them, but blaming schools for trying to improve reading of those with learning disabilities goes beyond that natural tendency. <br /><br />Note also that Somerby didn't like the last Democratic Mayor of NYC and he doesn't like this one either, even though he has just started and is trying to improve education for poor kids. I think he has a political ulterior motive with this criticism. What would the Mayor have to do to get Somerby's approval? Nothing?Not a rodenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02216459357112547141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-25228588766759255242022-05-21T12:24:11.304-04:002022-05-21T12:24:11.304-04:00You are missing the fact that Somerby mostly harsh...You are missing the fact that Somerby mostly harshly criticizes black journalist, professors, authors and politicians. <br /><br />It would make sense if he were ever criticizing conservatives and had to declare that they are good, decent people because it is not assumed given their penchant for doing evil. That isn't the situation. He reserves those declarations for mostly black people, who he has singled out for criticism, like Zadulu, who he keeps saying did nothing wrong, except her article has now been the focus of criticism for days now.<br /><br />If Somerby doesn't have a low opinion of black people (hate is too strong a word, I think), why does he feel the need to keep telling us he thinks these are good, decent people. Although he has stopped saying that about Don Lemon and Ta-Nehisi Coates, come to think of it. And he never calls Rachel good and decent. <br /><br />And there were four "innocuous statements" to the effect that A, B (but not C) were good decent people. Four! <br /><br />I've been suspecting Somerby of racism for several decades, but with Trump, he decided to come out of the closet. Trump had that effect on lots of people. It doesn't make racism any more acceptable. If Somerby doesn't want to be suspected of racism, he should stop behaving like a racist.<br /><br />Personally, I think he expected to make a difference for those black kids in his classes, with his youthful enthusiasm, pure heart, and assurances from Teach for America that this was all he needed to turn public education around -- John Holt said so. When he found out that teaching was difficult, I think he got angry and frustrated at his kids and their stubbornness. I think he acquired the belief that black kids can't learn (since they couldn't learn with him) because of their troubled racial past, and has been trying to convince education of this since he left teaching. His use of NAEP scores is always to show the intransigence of the gaps, no matter how much objective improvement there is in the actual scores. He wants us to believe teaching them is hopeless, since it was hopeless for him, and that will vindicate him by making it the kids' fault instead of his own -- for being underprepared and undereducated in how education works. <br /><br />I don't consider that racism. I consider it ego-protective and I think Somerby is a narcissist, as are many in the entertainment industry. I think his attitudes toward black kids are related to his ego-needs, but he holds racist attitudes to justify his own failures. <br /><br />If someone kept calling me a good, decent person, over and over, while criticizing me, I would know that he felt exactly the opposite. Sometimes you just can't be so literal. People are complex, if you only pay attention to surface, you won't understand much about them. <br /><br />I could be entirely wrong about Somerby's motives, but his behavior would still require some explanation because it is truly odd.Not a rodenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02216459357112547141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-12520005605832701572022-05-21T12:00:32.564-04:002022-05-21T12:00:32.564-04:00IMO liberals are generally NOT oblivious to the pl...IMO liberals are generally NOT oblivious to the plight of poor people. What they ARE oblivious to is how well or how badly the attempted remedies are working. E.g., they support BLM, even though BLM has led to a big increase in black murder victims. https://nypost.com/2022/05/20/anti-cop-pols-yawn-as-slay-spike-hits-black-americans-hardest/ <br />E.g., liberals support Head Start, even though studies show no lasting benefit. https://www.heritage.org/education/report/head-start-earns-f-no-lasting-impact-children-first-gradeDavid in Calhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10222355423128534221noreply@blogger.com