Brian Stelter's ball of confusion, part 2!

WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 2, 2020

Large chunks of our discourse are like this: Is it possible that Donald J. Trump really believes the crazy things he says?

We'll have to admit it! When the commander rants at length as he did in his Thanksgiving press event, the deeply disordered commander in chief really makes us wonder.

Personally, we'd like to see carefully selected medical / psychiatric specialists asked about this puzzling state of affairs. Because that sort of thing is forbidden, we end up with ruminations like this:

STELTER (11/29/20): Welcome back to Reliable Sources. I'm Brian Stelter.

I remember a day, early in the Trump years, when there were all these debates about whether to say the president was lying. Remember that? Was he lying? Was he just fibbing?

I remember Jeff Greenfield saying, "Brian, there is something worse than a lie. There is something worse than a lie. There's a delusion. When you are lying, you know it. When you are delusional, you don't." 

He wanted to remind me there is something more dangerous than a liar—someone who is delusional. 

What do you think is going on now? What do you see happening with the White House, with the Trump White House? Is it delusion? Is that what's happening?

That was CNN's Brian Stelter on Sunday's Reliable Sources. For a bit of background on this matter, see yesterday's report.

Stelter is a good, decent person—but his presentation on Sunday made almost no sense. Things went sideways when he introduced his next guest, the Atlantic's Jonathan Rauch:

STELTER (continuing directly): Well, my next guest says that the president's behavior, the outgoing president's attacks against the election integrity, are attacks on reality itself. 

Jonathan Rauch wrote this back in 2018. He was early onto this. He called it "The Constitution of Knowledge." He is now turning it into a book, and he joins me now. He's a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and a contributor for The Atlantic.

Jonathan, "delusion." I've always been afraid—not afraid. I've always been sensitive about using that word, cautious about using that word in the Trump years, not wanting to know—not wanting to assume I know what's going on in the president's head.

What do you see? What do you see? Is "delusion" a fair word for these election lies?

How confused was Stelter's presentation? Let us count (some of) the ways:

In the first chunk of his presentation, Stelter seemed to say that the commander may actually believe his crazy statements. 

Trump may be "delusional," Stelter seemed to say. He seemed to say that being delusional is different from being a liar.

Quoting Greenfield, he seemed to say that being delusional is even worse!

Is it possible that Trump is so disordered that he believes his craziest claims? We often find ourselves wondering about that—but Stelter soon seemed to be over his head just handling these basic concepts. 

By the end of that second chunk, he seemed to be asking if "delusion" was just another word for "lies." By now, he'd completely lost his way. Here's how the confusion developed:

In his opening chunk, Stelter proceeded with perfect clarity. He presented two dueling possibilities:

Trump may be lying when he makes his crazy claims. Or he may be delusional—he may actually believe the crazy things he has said.

At this point, Stelter had drawn a clear distinction between two possibilities. But then, he quickly muddied the waters, offering this:

"Well, my next guest says that the president's behavior, the outgoing president's attacks against the election's integrity, are attacks on reality itself."

Are the commander's crazy claims an "attack on reality itself?" Imaginably, a person could voice that judgment whether he thought Trump was lying or not.

From there, the confusion grew. Stelter said this to Rauch:

"Jonathan, delusion. I've always been afraid—not afraid. I've always been sensitive about using that word, cautious about using that word in the Trump years, not wanting to know—not wanting to assume I know what's going on in the president's head."

According to Stelter, he doesn't like to use the word "delusion." Reason? He doesn't like to give the impression that he knows what's going on in Trump's head.

Sadly, that doesn't make sense! If you say that Trump is lying, you're already saying that you know what's going on in his head. You're saying Trump knows the statement in question is false, but he's saying it anyway. 

Media analyst, please! If you say that some politician is lying, you're saying that you know what's going on in his head! This is why, until recently, it was considered bad journalistic form to say that a pol was lying.

As a general matter, it's hard to know if someone is lying. How do you know the person isn't confused or misinformed? 

Now we have an additional possibility—the possibility that Trump may be "delusional." That's one step past confused or misinformed—but as soon as you say that someone is lying, you're already saying that  you know what's going on in his head.

These basic concepts are bone simple. They've been a basic conceptual construct since roughly forever. One last time, let's review:

Traditionally, journalists have been forbidden from using the L-word because it's hard to know what's going on in someone's head. 

Now, Stelter seemed to be saying that he has avoided suggesting that Trump is "delusional" for that very reason. But he refers to Trump's "lies" on a regular basis!

Could it be that Trump is so crazy that he believes his ridiculous statements? We'd like to see a (carefully selected) medical expert asked to evaluate that question.

Last Sunday, Stelter seemed to be over his head handling these basic concepts. His presentation had broken down completely by the time he posed his puzzling question to Rauch. As we'll see tomorrow, Rauch was instantly tangled in this conceptual spider web too.  

Is man [sic] really "the rational animal?" Dearest darlings, let's face the truth. Large chunks of our discourse are like this!


30 comments:

  1. "Is it possible that..."

    Here is a major problem with Somerby's essays. This isn't a question that anyone asks when talking about reality. We ask "Is it true that..." or "Is it likely that..." but never "Is it possible that..." because the latter question yields no information about a situation. This is especially true if you allow miracles, magic and aliens into your realm of possibility.

    When Somerby asks this, he is being an asshole. It permits him to suggest things without taking any responsibility for evidence, likelihood or truth. It is possible that Trump has secretly been Santa Claus all along, distributing toys to children all over the world. Because anything is possible, right? No. This is the stupidist construction I've seen anywhere and it does nothing to encourage readers to think critically, ask useful questions, much less find answers.

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  2. "If you say that Trump is lying, you're already saying that you know what's going on in his head. You're saying Trump knows the statement in question is false, but he's saying it anyway."

    No, this is not correct. If you know for a fact that something is untrue, and you know for a fact that Trump has access to the information about that truth, then you can conclude with certainty that he is lying, even without having access to the content of his mind.

    We NEVER, not EVER, have access to the contents of anyone's mind. And yet we know that some people are telling lies, by referring to the facts and to our knowledge of their motives and self-interest (as revealed by their self-report or behavior).

    Using phenomenology as a loophole is not permitted in psychology, even if it is OK in philosophy (because philosophy has no application to anything and consists largely of argument without conclusion, except for symbolic logic). We never know what any other person is thinking or experiencing and even if they tell us using language, we do not know what the words refer to for that individual. It is always an exercise in deduction.

    With Trump, we can see that he has told many lies, said many things that are demonstrably false, from which he has personally benefitted. A person who does that is a sociopath, not delusional.

    A delusional person typically has other mental health symptoms not present in sociopaths. There are also delusional people who are not at all mentally ill despite their delusions. For example, people have delusions about their kids, some people believe they were abducted by aliens, some people believe they are able to channel spirits of dead people or have esp. There are also people who say they can do this and charge money for their services without believing their own statements (they are con artists). There are people with severe injuries who believe they will recover fully when it is medically unlikely. There are people who believe themselves to be handsome when they are average in looks. These delusions are usually motivated by self-interest. And they are not at all uncommon.

    With Trump, he no doubt has many such delusions about his own self worth, because he is a narcissist. He also no doubt has delusions about what will happen to him after he leaves office, about whether he will be able to stay out of jail. He has delusions about Ivanka's attractiveness and about his performance as president. Lots of delusions. But he also tells many blatant, self-serving lies that advance his self-interest. How can you tell the two apart? Look for the gain, look at who benefits or how he (or Republicans) benefit from what he says.

    Psychologists don't just look at the content of what someone says, they look at context and they look at motives, and they look at patterns of behavior at at past behaviors.

    Somerby wants to throw up his hands and call it all unknowable, while he presents instances as if they were isolated, distinct from the person and all he has said and done in his life. It just doesn't work that way, as Somerby might know if he had the slightest bit of knowledge about psychology, the slightest insight into himself and others around him.

    ReplyDelete
  3. "We'd like to see a (carefully selected) medical expert asked to evaluate that question."

    If you want a useful answer to a medical question, you don't go doctor-shopping to find the one that will tell you what you want to hear. That's what the term "carefully selected" suggests. It is a bad idea, because if you find a doctor who will tell you what you want, reality is not changed in the least by that doctor's statement.

    If Somerby finds that doctor who will call Trump mentally ill, what changes? Nothing whatsoever.

    ReplyDelete
  4. “In the first chunk of his presentation, Stelter seemed to say that the commander may actually believe his crazy statements. “

    No, he didn’t. Stelter is asking if Trump is delusional or not. That’s what his guest was there for.

    “Trump may be "delusional," Stelter seemed to say. He seemed to say that being delusional is different from being a liar.”

    No, he didn’t. He mentions that other people (Greenfield, for example) suggest there is a difference.

    Stelter himself doesn’t say in the quoted excerpts whether he himself believes Trump is either a liar or delusional.

    ReplyDelete
  5. “Sadly, that doesn't make sense! If you say that Trump is lying, you're already saying that you know what's going on in his head. You're saying Trump knows the statement in question is false, but he's saying it anyway.”

    Daily reminder: from Merriam-Webster:

    lie noun (2)
    Definition of lie (Entry 4 of 6)
    1a: an assertion of something known or believed by the speaker or writer to be untrue with intent to deceive
    ‘He told a lie to avoid punishment.’

    b: an untrue or inaccurate statement that may or may not be believed true by the speaker or writer
    ‘the lies we tell ourselves to feel better’
    ‘historical records containing numerous lies’

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lie

    ReplyDelete
  6. Stelter was calling Trump a liar from jump. His coy configurations invariably morphed into outright accusations before the end of his so-called show about the media.

    He flatly called Trump a liar prior to his inauguration and spent the week after the election tweeting about unconfirmed hate crimes he said were emboldened by the election. Nearly all of which were later proved to be bogus.

    He went on from there to ask his viewers if It was time to talk about Trump being a national traitor (a capital crime) and to routinely call him a racist.

    I aware that people here concur with Tater’s sentiments. What I’m objecting to is the opinion that he was ever reticent, waffling, or demure.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Stelter, like many, is uncertain what drives Trump to say the bizarre, false things he says. Is it deliberate? is it delusion? Maybe a bit of both? Experts and psychiatrists disagree. That's why Somerby's delusion vs lie conundrum is unresolvable. The question is why Somerby stakes out the position he takes, which is that Trump is delusional, not a liar.

      Delete
    2. You can always find someone in a field to disagree with another person in that field, and psychiatry is no different, but there is not a lot of disagreement that Trump is "disordered" (as Somerby puts it). Professionals are unwilling to diagnosis someone without a proper evaluation.

      Trump is clearly a liar. The question is whether he is lying or delusional about a particular statement, not whether he lies a great deal more than is normal for people to do. The professional evaluation would speak to why he lies -- does he lie for his own benefit, to con others, because it is easier than telling the truth, or because he cannot tell truth from fiction or fantasy?

      Somerby is an asshole who knows nothing about psychology. He has no basis for calling Trump delusional, as opposed to a liar. On alternate days he calls Trump a sociopath and a disordered person (a sociopath is no more disordered than someone with autism is -- both are atypical). Somerby shouldn't be tossing these labels around. He should instead be focused on things liberals care about -- how to undo the massive damage Trump has done to our country. But Somerby is not a liberal either. The question is whether Somerby is lying about being liberal, or delusional himself, since it is obvious from an objective perspective that he is not liberal in fact.

      Delete
    3. “ He flatly called Trump a liar before his inauguration” Well good for him. “What I am objecting to is the opinion that he was ever reticent, waffling or demure” And whose opinion was that?

      Delete
    4. I aware that Cece try hard put english in sentience about taters and waffles; maybe she no make cents but maybe she get hungry.

      Btw, under Trump, right wing terrorism attacks increased more than under any other president. America first!

      Delete
  7. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Trump is delusional, as are many of his followers in the Christian Right. Right-wing Christian fundamentalist religion in the USA is a factory of delusion and fascist political attitudes. It churns out delusional followers faster than McDonald’s churns out hamburgers. We who rarely venture outside of our liberal urban bubbles are mostly unaware of the extent of this delusion, which is concentrated in the deep red states and especially in the Southern states.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. For all those wondering how Republicans could have voted for Trump, Cecelia illustrates the reason.

      Delete
    2. Logic such as this illustrated the reason:

      “ We who rarely venture outside of our liberal urban bubble..”

      Delete
    3. Ce, girl, ooh Lord. Category fallacy. Um, yeah, logic is justifying something with reason. You quote a descriptive notion, logic is not applicable. You are truly a fucking moron.

      To be clear, those red states, they take our liberal money and our liberal policies to deal with the rampant immorality of their own lives, and then vote for Republicans that destroy our liberal bubble with their corporate welfare and environmental pollution.

      Delete
  9. Somerby, yesterday:
    “Does Trump believe his crazy claims? Frankly, it seemed that he did!”

    Other people: “Is Trump deliberately lying about the election? Frankly, it seems that he is.”

    Why is Somerby on any firmer ground than the other people here?

    ReplyDelete
  10. Somerby isn’t interested in the answer Rauch gave to Stelter’s question “Is "delusion" a fair word for these election lies?”

    Rauch says no.

    ReplyDelete
  11. The content of this entry by Somerby as is the subject of Stelter’s broadcast is for some reason focused on the misstatements by Trump about election fraud as if they are not a part of a massive resume of bullshit spewed by this clown dating back to very long before he took office. For Stelter this is how you fill the 24 h news cycle with content your viewers desire. That this spectacle created by Trump has now devolved into members of this administration calling for fellow Republicans to be shot and Trump supporters advocating Republican voter suppression in Georgia is a low point that begs the question : Is it possible for an administration to be any more immoral and stupid?

    ReplyDelete
  12. David in Cal's daughter's father is an expert in delusion. He actually thought Trump was a smart businessman. LOL.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. To be fair, Republicans think it is smart to con people for their own personal benefit; it is smart to get rich off of inheritance, bankruptcies, tax fraud, loan fraud, marketing fraud, and ripping off working people - all things Trump accomplished with aplomb.

      Delete
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