tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post1603984174643715164..comments2024-03-28T08:17:14.194-04:00Comments on the daily howler: CASE STUDY: No nonwhite trainees need apply!<b>bob somerby</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/02963464534685954436noreply@blogger.comBlogger87125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-51304841148190197062023-01-11T11:37:01.567-05:002023-01-11T11:37:01.567-05:00Okay.
Bigotry, white supremacy, and ignorance of m...Okay.<br />Bigotry, white supremacy, and ignorance of math and economics.<br />I stand corrected.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-75278267833706785182023-01-11T09:47:21.076-05:002023-01-11T09:47:21.076-05:00Yeah, dear mh, really...
Aren't you suppose...Yeah, dear mh, really... <br /><br />Aren't you supposed to be the expert in statistics here? Well, thanks for demonstrating that it's all bullshit...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-82325341457621300692023-01-11T09:10:52.950-05:002023-01-11T09:10:52.950-05:00mh/idiot - that's another base rate fallacy.mh/idiot - that's another base rate fallacy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-54253002596752121432023-01-11T08:31:19.443-05:002023-01-11T08:31:19.443-05:00There are maybe 1.4 million terminally ill patient...There are maybe 1.4 million terminally ill patients in the US. Quick, AC. What is 4.4%? It’s over 61,000. That’s a lot of lives potentially affected for you to be so cavalier and say it doesn’t seem significant to you. Are you that callous?mhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08937133532381705347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-32714613096907927652023-01-11T08:30:14.008-05:002023-01-11T08:30:14.008-05:00Jeez. Typical meaningless liberal drivel. What doe...<br />Jeez. Typical meaningless liberal drivel. What does "near the end of life" have to do with - specifically! - opioids? <br /><br />Is it some liberal cult's ritual, taking opioids near the end of life?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-60279332013281661402023-01-11T08:15:58.585-05:002023-01-11T08:15:58.585-05:00I’m glad you’re not my doctor, AC.I’m glad you’re not my doctor, AC.mhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08937133532381705347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-89050542764018869992023-01-11T08:05:21.297-05:002023-01-11T08:05:21.297-05:00If blacks felt less pain why did they invent the b...If blacks felt less pain why did they invent the blues?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-8974512028664450772023-01-11T08:05:03.335-05:002023-01-11T08:05:03.335-05:00Who would complain about a 4.4% tax increase?
The ...Who would complain about a 4.4% tax increase?<br />The number is practically meaningless, it's so small.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-67833577797140739172023-01-11T07:28:52.956-05:002023-01-11T07:28:52.956-05:00A headline on today's (Jan. 11) Boston Globe s...A headline on today's (Jan. 11) Boston Globe states: "Near death. racial disparities persist. Dana-Farber study finds people of color who are terminal get fewer opioids for pain." The study found that "compared to white patients, Black patients were 4.4 percent less likely to receive any opioid and 3.2 percent less likely to receive long-acting opioids near the end of life. Hispanic persons were 3.6 percent less likely to receive any opioids and 2.2 percent less likely to receive long-acting opioids." Seems to me that these are quite small disparities, and not particularly meaningful. Also of note is that the reporter also cites the UVa survey: ""A 2016 survey of 222 white medical students found that half believed Black people feel less pain than white people" - the same thing that Norris said.AC/MAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-52223269168683882472023-01-11T06:34:06.481-05:002023-01-11T06:34:06.481-05:00anon 12:00, I get your point: the king really is w...anon 12:00, I get your point: the king really is wearing clothes and I'm deluded for calling that into question.AC/MAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-69445322963538557702023-01-11T00:00:47.078-05:002023-01-11T00:00:47.078-05:00You have worked very hard to delude yourself. Have...You have worked very hard to delude yourself. Have a nice life.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-53062878221546198092023-01-10T22:32:27.808-05:002023-01-10T22:32:27.808-05:00anon 6:57 - here's some reasons why I disagree...anon 6:57 - here's some reasons why I disagree with you: (1) anon 6;57 claims that 50% of the white students endorsed at least one wrong belief "about black physiology (relevant to pain)". There were 15 questions. Neither you nor MH go into their content - but few seem to have anything to do with black physiology relevant to pain. I won't list every one, people can look them up, but here are some examples: blacks' blood coagulates quicker; blacks have a more sensitive sense of smell; whites have a more efficient respiratory system; blacks are more fertile; blacks are better at detecting movement, whites have larger brains (I would note that only 3 of 229 got this one wrong - I assume by saying it was "possibly true" - I submit that none of these examples are relevant to blacks' pain - the only one of the 15 was the one about nerve endings. (2) you say Norris was right that the 50% of the subjects believed that blacks were more tolerant of pain. Contrary to your claim, the abstract absolutely doesn't say that. it says that those 50% "tended" to give lower ratings of pain for black people. It's clear this means that on average these 50% gave lower pain estimates - not that all 50% of them did. (3) if a subject answers one of these false postulates as "possibly true" the subject is deemed to have answered incorrectly, and is part of 50%<br />who gave wrong answers; while another subject who responds to the same wrong question "possibly false" is deemed to have answered correctly. this doesn't make sense. (4) I'd note that it's not quite accurate that the students were evaluating a hypothetical black and white patient. They were evaluating patient's who had names that sounded "black" or "white." Maybe there's no other way to do it, but it is hardly perfect (5) I never said that I don't give a damn whether black people get pain medication when they get cancer -that's a "lie" - of course everyone should, including black people. This is an example of the weird way you reason - and impeaches your view in general. Again, the main focus of TDH's post is that Norris distorted what the study said. anon 6:57 - you mischaracterize what the abstract says. (7) as to statistics - you got me on that one - I never studied statistics, and at this point, ain't planning on doing it. But you don't know how to make good arguments. I'm a lawyer and do it for a living. Statistically, I suppose, you could take 229 med students and ask them what color they liked better - green or orange, say - and if the 50% percent who said they liked orange "tended" to rate blacks' pain lower than whites and prescribed not enough pain medication, I would say that study was meaningless. Not a perfect example, but on the same principle, (see above) the UVa study is essentially meaningless; and TDH is right about Norris, beyond question.<br /><br /><br />AC/MAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-24832241317306322892023-01-10T22:29:18.296-05:002023-01-10T22:29:18.296-05:00The idiotbox. Makes sense.The idiotbox. Makes sense.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-71417579525226945842023-01-10T22:08:42.195-05:002023-01-10T22:08:42.195-05:00This has been explained to death and you are now d...This has been explained to death and you are now distorting things. I’m going to go watch TV now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-48327769594061213122023-01-10T21:41:41.817-05:002023-01-10T21:41:41.817-05:00So, Norris was correct? She directly quoted the st...So, Norris was correct? She directly quoted the study? Half of the students and researchers "believe blacks had a higher tolerance for pain"?<br /><br />Not the blacks in the study, blacks. They believed all blacks have a higher tolerance for pain. Where is that in the study?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-12979678159974090022023-01-10T20:45:23.165-05:002023-01-10T20:45:23.165-05:00Yes, this is why you do significance tests. To see...Yes, this is why you do significance tests. To see if the amount of difference is big enough to have been caused by something, or whether it is just accidental (due to chance). The results were significantly different. For there to be no result worth reporting, the lines in panel B would need to be parallel to each other and flat (horizontal with no slope), like the line for the black target in panel A.<br /><br />One problem with interpreting distances on an 11 point scale is that none of the subjects likely used the extremes of the scale. No one would give very low ratings and no one would give very high ratings, given the stimuli, so all the variation is likely in the middle of the scale. That makes a half-point difference bigger relative to the range of the responses. The scale was anchored by the words "no pain" for 0 and "worst possible pain" for 11, so subjects were unlikely to use either extreme in rating. Given that 2 is mild pain and 6 is extreme pain, most of the ratings were probably between 3 and 5, which is a span that would make a half point increment biggrt than the 0-10 span would seem if people used all available ratings. Statistical analyses take into account the variability in the ratings. The difference is significant using two different test assumptions. Not even close. That means that the differences in the pain ratings matter, they are meaningful and not chance variability.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-71858283505450792732023-01-10T20:29:09.980-05:002023-01-10T20:29:09.980-05:00Hassan: another statistical illiterate. What was t...Hassan: another statistical illiterate. What was the p value again?mhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08937133532381705347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-39412313698692042032023-01-10T20:25:18.816-05:002023-01-10T20:25:18.816-05:00The claim from the journalist Norris is obvious ho...The claim from the journalist Norris is obvious horseshit. Hassannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-38461556290236393992023-01-10T20:22:11.041-05:002023-01-10T20:22:11.041-05:007:28 "wonder whether a bias to believe false ...7:28 "wonder whether a bias to believe false things about black people also carries over to ideas about white pain, "<br /><br />The study suggests real-world differences, such as black patients tending to report greater pain than white patients and other automatic biases not associated with traditional implicit measures of racial attitudes.<br /><br />The interesting part is that the students and researchers who held false beliefs only rated the black patients pain a half a point scale lower than their counterparts who did not hold these beliefs. A half a point on an 11-point scale. Ie it could be that both rated the pain as very severe with only a half point difference within that rating.<br />Hassannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-30400161593023665142023-01-10T20:13:24.778-05:002023-01-10T20:13:24.778-05:00Does anyone really believe black people will vote ...Does anyone really believe black people will vote for Republicans under any circumstances after this last circus? Libs don't need to engage in performative posturing over race to keep minority voters. All we need to do is let the Republicans do whatever they want in the House and make sure prospective voters know about it. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-40030236169052080522023-01-10T20:07:37.597-05:002023-01-10T20:07:37.597-05:00It was the lower pain treatment in panel B of Fig ...It was the lower pain treatment in panel B of Fig 2 that shows a belief that the subject had a higher tolerance of pain. Those with more false beliefs gave higher pain treatment to the white target and lower to the black target, whereas those with low false beliefs treated them both about the same.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-90607999352153231322023-01-10T19:55:03.611-05:002023-01-10T19:55:03.611-05:00Norris most certainly did not quote directly from ...Norris most certainly did not quote directly from the study. Rating the pain lower is most certainly not a statement of belief the subject's race has a higher tolerance of pain. That is a fanciful delusion pulled from one's ass.<br /><br />Pathetic!<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-65936788432539649062023-01-10T19:28:20.359-05:002023-01-10T19:28:20.359-05:00In Figure 2 (Study 2), panel A, the results for pa...In Figure 2 (Study 2), panel A, the results for pain ratings are the same for the black target regardless of the number of false statements endorsed (low vs high). In contrast, the white target is considered to be in greater pain by those with more false beliefs about black people, whereas the white target is considered to be in less pain by those endorsing fewer false beliefs. Pain was not varied in the study, so both lines should have been parallel. It is unclear why the subjects rated the white target differently based on their knowledge of black physiology, but they appear to have done so. I would want to look at the stimuli that was being rated, and I would also wonder whether a bias to believe false things about black people also carries over to ideas about white pain, but that would be a different study.<br /><br />The important panel is B. It shows no bias for those with few false beliefs but a significant undertreatment of pain for the black target among those subjects who endorsed more false beliefs. For those who endorsed more false statements, the white target, who was rated as having more pain was also given more pain treatment, whereas the black and white targets were treated the same by those who endorsed few false statements. The slight difference in the graph is not significant. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-79232970896456616912023-01-10T19:27:09.607-05:002023-01-10T19:27:09.607-05:00Are you in league with the trolls who are just fuc...Are you in league with the trolls who are just fucking around not trying to have a rational discussion, AC? Is that how you want to roll?mhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08937133532381705347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-16926341356578715362023-01-10T19:24:56.354-05:002023-01-10T19:24:56.354-05:00AC, did you ever look up some statistics, eg the s...AC, did you ever look up some statistics, eg the statistical model the study is using, or did you simply blow it off and pretend that it doesn’t matter, because statistics schmatistics, amirite? <br /><br />Why the fuck should I or anyone else school you on statistics? mhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08937133532381705347noreply@blogger.com