tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post2031698949697411423..comments2024-03-29T05:18:26.681-04:00Comments on the daily howler: OUR LOGIC, OUR FACTS: What do The Others really believe?<b>bob somerby</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/02963464534685954436noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-3910840206088267962021-12-15T00:07:02.966-05:002021-12-15T00:07:02.966-05:00From Political Wire:
"Vanity Fair: “Finally,...From Political Wire:<br /><br />"Vanity Fair: “Finally, there’s the question of why Don Jr. was trying to communicate with this father through Meadows. Yes, Trump was the leader of the free world at the time, but surely most presidents inform their staff that calls from their children should be put through, particularly if they’re important. Did Junior initially try to contact his dad directly, only to find himself screened? Did he realize from the get-go that Trump—who’s never appeared particularly fond of his namesake—wouldn’t listen to him and then decide to try Meadows as a back channel? After all this, will Trump change his phone number and forget to give it to his son?”<br /><br />“Don Jr. has been uncharacteristically quiet on Twitter for the last two days, but perhaps he’ll fill us in soon.”"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-4511852850429962782021-12-14T23:39:30.740-05:002021-12-14T23:39:30.740-05:00Kevin Drum is pretending that Democrats engage in ...Kevin Drum is pretending that Democrats engage in voter fraud, but then there is this:<br /><br />"At least two Donald Trump supporters have been arrested at The Villages in Florida for voting more than once."<br /><br />Most cases of voter fraud turn out to have been committed by Republicans.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-88033034409035430092021-12-14T21:28:49.420-05:002021-12-14T21:28:49.420-05:00Or maybe Jr. knew his text messages would one day ...Or maybe Jr. knew his text messages would one day be subpoenaed.Andrichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05112122756372293096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-21188705814125747782021-12-14T17:10:20.925-05:002021-12-14T17:10:20.925-05:00Again, depending on the state, you may be charged ...Again, depending on the state, you may be charged with felony murder for any death that's deemed a proximate result from your crime. Now, it may not fly depending on how far the prosecution tries to stretch that notion. Here's one example from my own memory, back when I lived in Chicago. A store owner set his shop on fire. He was charged with arson, but the prosecution also tried to charge him with felony murder when a fire department captain got into a fatal accident on the way to the fire. Didn't fly. It was a bridge too far. Ilyahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09520998225031485048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-51089242307888815322021-12-14T16:59:39.230-05:002021-12-14T16:59:39.230-05:00Cops and right wingers have immunity from murder, ...Cops and right wingers have immunity from murder, stop publicly playing with yourself, it is gross. The degree to which you generate interest is bound by your skull.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-73202373339698094292021-12-14T16:49:31.634-05:002021-12-14T16:49:31.634-05:00Indeed, someone driving a getaway car in a heist w...Indeed, someone driving a getaway car in a heist where murder was committed will be charged with murder. That we know.<br /><br />But cops in pursuit running someone over? That's a different story. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-37157915196455371592021-12-14T16:46:18.469-05:002021-12-14T16:46:18.469-05:00Climate change damage dwarfs any damage done by &q...Climate change damage dwarfs any damage done by "rioters" - compare the damage in Kentucky for example, yet all we hear from the Right and faux Dems is how protestors are ruining our country. Brother, please, these people have no integrity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-46686620028044726442021-12-14T16:44:10.233-05:002021-12-14T16:44:10.233-05:00Here's a citation from Wikipedia:
"There...Here's a citation from Wikipedia: <br />"There are two schools of thought concerning whose actions can cause the defendant to be guilty of felony murder. Jurisdictions that hold to the "agency theory" admit only deaths caused by the agents of the crime. Jurisdictions that use the "proximate cause theory" include any death, even if caused by a bystander or the police, provided that it meets one of several proximate cause tests to determine if the chain of events between the offence and the death was short enough to have legally caused the death.[3]"<br />So, to some extent it depends on the jurisdiction. Ilyahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09520998225031485048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-20394503237635013092021-12-14T16:43:17.747-05:002021-12-14T16:43:17.747-05:00Most cop violence happens when cops are in pursuit...Most cop violence happens when cops are in pursuit, various cities and states have instituted policies to prohibit cops from many types of pursuits, which has led to a decrease in cop violence.<br /><br />Pursuit are solely about the individual cop involved, cops' duty is to protect property, not to any individual's safety, so pursuits are unnecessary and only serves the cop.<br /><br />Strawman aside, 18 U.S. Code § 1111 covers the concept of transferred intent.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-37953537050387777732021-12-14T16:37:13.386-05:002021-12-14T16:37:13.386-05:00That's correct, Mao, that is what I am saying....That's correct, Mao, that is what I am saying. It's the essence of the <i>felony murder</i> charge: any death that is a proximate cause of the crime, e.g. a police cruiser striking while in pursuit, will probably result in a felony murder charge. I can give you an example from my ex-wife's bar exam prep flash cards, but here's something that was in the news very recently: the Arbery murder trial. Everyone, including William Bryan, got convicted of felony murder, even though Bryan didn't even have a gun at the time. However, he participated in the chase, which was deemed illegal, and was found guilty of the resulting death. Ilyahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09520998225031485048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-68446924469447955832021-12-14T16:14:58.700-05:002021-12-14T16:14:58.700-05:00Well said and correct, except for respecting Bob. ...Well said and correct, except for respecting Bob. Greghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288008924419574934noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-11506222123854483072021-12-14T15:57:41.014-05:002021-12-14T15:57:41.014-05:00You're right, dear AC/MA, they are not exactly...You're right, dear AC/MA, they are not exactly comparable. <br /><br />Personally, we feel that meaningless blm-antifa riots were worse, much worse. Because normal ordinary people suffered. <br /><br />Sorry, not much sympathy for politicians. Besides, the Jan 6 protest, before it (unfortunately) turned into a riot, was, unlike any blm-antifa action, an actual political protest. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-64036947160881111902021-12-14T15:30:45.878-05:002021-12-14T15:30:45.878-05:00It might be comparable if the "liberal cult&q...It might be comparable if the "liberal cult" incited a blm-antifa mob to burst into the Capitol with the intent of depriving Trump of his election victory back in 2016, with several dem senators claiming that VP Biden had the constitutional right to overturn the election. Mitch McConnell, of all people, summed up Trump's responsibility fairly well at the time. AC/MAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15472077052251486957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-54886313070635106602021-12-14T15:24:18.871-05:002021-12-14T15:24:18.871-05:00D in C - Mitch McConnell summed up Trump's res...D in C - Mitch McConnell summed up Trump's responsibility for this pretty well, right ever the Jan. 6 episode, don't you agree? AC/MAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15472077052251486957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-7002452334759301312021-12-14T15:12:43.870-05:002021-12-14T15:12:43.870-05:00If the police cruiser pursuing you runs over and k...If the police cruiser pursuing you runs over and kills someone then you're guilty of murder -- is this what you're saying, dear Ilya? <br /><br />Whoa. Citation needed. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-49701587403053054032021-12-14T15:09:39.978-05:002021-12-14T15:09:39.978-05:00In the close to a year that has now passed, few ha...In the close to a year that has now passed, few have asked what these Trump supporters WERE trying to do, how they saw it playing out if they accomplished what they wanted. In one interview Trump said he didn’t expect them to go inside, and this drew no follow up. <br /> Bob, I have zero respect for you, but I do see how difficult your task is, even as of course you will ask the wrong questions. Fox News had been lying for weeks, supporting Trumps attempt to steal the election. Along with Trump, they clearly helped assemble a violent mob and pointed it at the Capital. That they were scared when it blew up in their faces excuses nothing. Greghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288008924419574934noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-32035332657639772021-12-14T14:55:51.123-05:002021-12-14T14:55:51.123-05:00That's what Bob wrote. 'May [demonstrate]&...That's what Bob wrote. 'May [demonstrate]' means that it may or may not, i.e. there's no certainty. However, it's irrelevant whether Trump and his minions had planned for all the violence that took place. It only matters that they engaged in a conspiracy that was an illegal act, in which case everything that flows out of that conspiracy is on them. Ilyahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09520998225031485048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-12756694695834884042021-12-14T14:50:54.045-05:002021-12-14T14:50:54.045-05:00If there had been a conspiracy, which could be dee...If there had been a conspiracy, which could be deemed illegal, to thwart counting of the electoral votes and preventing the Congress from doing its job, then from the legal perspective it's irrelevant whether the violence had been planned or not. Everything that is a proximate cause of an illegal action falls on the actor(s). For example, if you're driving a getaway car after your partners robbed a store and cops are chasing after you and get into an accident and someone dies, you'll be charged with felony murder. <br />So, if Trump had stirred up that shit, and there was some illegal conspiracy, everyone who participated in that conspiracy is on the hook for <i>everything</i> that happened. Ilyahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09520998225031485048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-52737999905454070372021-12-14T13:53:10.887-05:002021-12-14T13:53:10.887-05:00Bob, Bob, Bob. I yield to no one in my admiration...Bob, Bob, Bob. I yield to no one in my admiration and respect for you. But this is just the wrong question to be asking.<br /><br />I don't know that I've seen anyone argue that Trump et al. planned a "violent" event. Maybe people have made this argument, but I don't recall seeing it. In any event, the key isn't whether they "planned" for violence, but rather that they exhibited reckless disregard for the consequences of what they were doing, which was conspiring to disrupt and prevent Congress from performing its Constitutional duty.<br /><br />And the fact that these communications from Ingraham, DJT Jr., etc., went unanswered for hours strongly suggests that Trump himself wasn't bothered by the violence. That's the key. Another key point is that these people, who were horrified by what was happening in real time, very quickly re-booted and began defending the mob's actions, or blaming the violence on people who weren't involved at all.Jonny Scrum-halfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10700652770637696602noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-76291470315271032232021-12-14T12:50:19.100-05:002021-12-14T12:50:19.100-05:00"unbiased"
Fuck off, David. Your fasci..."unbiased"<br /><br />Fuck off, David. Your fascist party decided not to participate in a non-partisan commission so Speaker Pelosi had to do the next option. Your fucking treasonous party wanted no part of it.<br /><br />Trump is directly responsible for the death of Ashley Babbit.<br /><br />You got some fucking balls.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-58195973452701633012021-12-14T12:16:57.692-05:002021-12-14T12:16:57.692-05:00The "others" choose to be uninformed. So...The "others" choose to be uninformed. So how can a person who uses their brain have an intelligent conversation with them. Yes, I usually do look down at people who do not use their brains. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-762532742419294532021-12-14T12:06:14.325-05:002021-12-14T12:06:14.325-05:00Here it is, the defense that everyone has been exp...Here it is, the defense that everyone has been expecting from Somerby. Note how he writes it in italics, as if he were quoting someone else's idea! This is Somerby's opinion:<br /><br />"If we take those messages at face value, that means that Donald Trump Junior didn't expect a violent riot to take place that day. "<br /><br />Note that Junior is urging Meadows to make Trump get in front of the cameras and show leadership. I don't think that demonstrates deniability about the rioting. We have no idea which part Jr. considers to be out of control. It certainly doesn't mean there was no plan to take action against the capitol. It means Jr. perhaps expected no resistance and that no one would be hurt. Perhaps that the police would roll over for the insurgents. The whole rest of the plan, involving various congressmen refusing to certify state vote totals and Pence not doing his job may have been something Jr. knew about, about Meadows knew about. It may be simply that they didn't plan to have anyone fighting back, use of vicious in-fighting to gain entry to the building, crazed people bragging about killing Pelosi and Pence, and so on. <br /><br />But notice how willing Somerby is to use Jr.'s words to excuse the whole plot! As if anything Jr. could say would excuse any part of this attack on democratic government!<br /><br />And once again, who cares what Republicans really believe about the last election. The FACT remains that the election was not stolen. Drum is eager to suggest that past elections have been stolen by Democrats, so that excuses current Republican voter suppression efforts and their claims, but (1) there is no proof that any past election was swayed by Democrats, (2) there is no proof that Democrats won in 2020 by election interference, (3) all cases of illegal voting has involved Republicans, not Democrats, (4) all audits have come up empty-handed. Drum may think he is being fair-minded by admitting past voter corruption on the left, but he instead is fueling hopes of conservative apologists such as Somerby, who want to excuse Trump's attempted coup using such flimsy arguments as today's nonsense. <br /><br />And before you think that this exonerates Trump, ask yourself who Donald Trump Jr is, exactly, and what his role in the government was. What office did he hold? Why should anything he thought or did matter to Trump's administration? And when you've answered that, you should understand why this invented quote by Somerby suggests corruption instead of showing that no one knew aobut the plans for insurrection.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-47681237164388572582021-12-14T11:53:39.548-05:002021-12-14T11:53:39.548-05:00Oh dear. What we certainly do know is that the lib...<br />Oh dear. What we certainly do know is that the liberal cult was planning and actively inciting last year's blm-antifa riots. Hundreds of them. <br /><br />So, what now? Is the liberal cult going to be held responsible? Alas, no, we don't think so. <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-43386439951250181352021-12-14T11:48:57.333-05:002021-12-14T11:48:57.333-05:00Who knows? In time, the January 6 committee may en...<i>Who knows? In time, the January 6 committee may end up demonstrating that President Trump was involved in some such plan.</i><br /><br />Accurately stated. <br /><br />If the Jan 6 Committee were going to do an unbiased investigation, Bob might have written, "In time, the January 6 committee may end up demonstrating <i>whether or not</i> President Trump was involved in some such plan." David in Calhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10222355423128534221noreply@blogger.com