tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post2730638196452733521..comments2024-03-28T14:57:10.887-04:00Comments on the daily howler: "SEGREGATION" AND SCOLD: Stupid old Biden opposed it back then!<b>bob somerby</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/02963464534685954436noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-76007583599986335392021-07-28T00:18:31.199-04:002021-07-28T00:18:31.199-04:00LOTTO, lottery,jackpot.
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When I went to school, there were...5:32 PM writes,<br /><br /><i>When I went to school, there were no advanced or remedial classes. We all went to the same class. The <b>“smart” kids</b> didn’t resent the presence of <b>“dumb” kids,</b> nor was their performance negatively impacted.</i><br /><br />First off, interesting it's 5:32 PM who uses the term "dumb" to reference non-high achievers on the way to schooling my lefty self with the insights of a Democratic liberal. Second, exactly how big were the achievement gaps in this school you went to back in the day when everyone got an optimum result? Sounds like 5:32 PM is half way advocating for a variation of the blab school model, except in place of a cacophony, the ideal is to introduce everyone to the same lesson plan at the same time. Somerby has indicated, from his experience, this is a highly problematic approach.<br /><br /><i>Studies have shown a clear benefit for lower performers, if you care to research the facts.</i><br /><br />So you're arguing against AP and remedial classes because low-achievers benefit from being in a class or, at least, a school with high achievers when compared to what exactly? Low achievers being taught age/grade appropriate material that is beyond them in a class which, on average, is populated by fellow struggling low-achievers? Yeah, <i>duh,</i> that would be the expected result.<br /><br />How about showing some concern for the high-achievers -even if they belong to a privileged group- and for trying to maximize the outcomes for those who are not at grade level by tailoring a curriculum to the level of academic achievement where each of them, as individuals, are at?CMikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13481861530761114492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-74247864599884718762019-06-14T18:52:37.868-04:002019-06-14T18:52:37.868-04:00The authors are not blaming bigoted teachers.
Rig...<i>The authors are not blaming bigoted teachers.</i><br /><br />Right, that was yesterday's excuse. It'll come out of moth balls if needed as an excuse to delay redistributing wealth and resources once it is acknowledged experiments with relatively low cost integration solutions fail to rectify the problem of achievement gaps.CMikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13481861530761114492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-33651996173903489882019-06-14T18:42:17.419-04:002019-06-14T18:42:17.419-04:00“But the major point of these studies, these futur...“But the major point of these studies, these future experts say, was the way they let liberals and progressives engage in the widespread scolding of Everyone Else”<br /><br />That isn’t the point. But, if these studies do assess blame, it isn’t “Everyone Else” who is at fault. It’s “Everyone”. Including me and Bob Somerby. All of us. <br /><br />And that is Somerby’s fundamental misunderstanding. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-20147431076278446242019-06-14T17:32:59.516-04:002019-06-14T17:32:59.516-04:00@CMike:
“Subsidized pre-K”...you mean like DeBlasi...@CMike:<br />“Subsidized pre-K”...you mean like DeBlasio implemented in New York, and most liberals advocate? <br /><br />When I went to school, there were no advanced or remedial classes. We all went to the same class. The “smart” kids didn’t resent the presence of “dumb” kids, nor was their performance negatively impacted. That you think they shouldn’t mix is odd. Studies have shown a clear benefit for lower performers, if you care to research the facts. <br /><br />No one who advocates for integrating schools misunderstands the difficulties, CMike. The professors in this study, but also many others, understand that integration of schools is equivalent to integration of neighborhoods, which is ultimately dependent on policy change. Some of it is economic, as you outline, but there are specific policies which have driven segregation over the years that need to be addressed. Perhaps you’ve read the reports in the Civil Rights project. The authors are not blaming bigoted teachers. They and other such studies lay out a clear case of what is actually happening. You simply can’t fix the problem with economics alone. This is a good study to read, if you haven’t:<br />“The Racial Achievement Gap, Segregated Schools, and Segregated Neighborhoods – A Constitutional Insult”<br /> By Richard Rothstein • November 12, 2014<br /><br />https://www.epi.org/publication/the-racial-achievement-gap-segregated-schools-and-segregated-neighborhoods-a-constitutional-insult/<br /><br />It’s hard to understand why you don’t think people like Prof Orfield et al are on the same side as yourself. They see a specific racial problem that, as I said, is the result of hundreds of years of policy, and can’t be fixed simply by economic measures. Why can’t we do both, integrate schools where it makes sense and lift everyone up economically?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-31525525814522010742019-06-14T17:09:12.848-04:002019-06-14T17:09:12.848-04:00Should the achievement gaps between the two groups...Should the achievement gaps between the two groups narrow under such a regimen then the analysis could return to blaming bigoted teachers for there being any gaps at all. Low achievers would be seen as the victims not of disadvantaged economic and social circumstances outside of school, they could go be back to being seen as the victims of the their teachers' low academic expectations for them manifested by their being assigned a less challenging curriculum than their higher achieving peers.<br /><br />The real goal here is to put off narrowing the class divide by directing more income and expensive resources to households that are not affluent through subsidized pre-K through early teen child care programs, a $15 an hour federal minimum wage law, guaranteed full employment through a public works program that would be part of a Green New Deal commitment, and single payer health care. <br /> <br />CMikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13481861530761114492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-18607085103230263042019-06-14T16:25:27.935-04:002019-06-14T16:25:27.935-04:00I think once 2:43 PM gave it some thought the resp...I think once 2:43 PM gave it some thought the response from that quarter would be that whereas the high performing kids would be in the same school as the non-high performers they would not be in the same classes and study groups as their counterparts.<br /><br />That or 2:43 thinks we've gone back to the blab school method where the high-performing students would be instructing the non-high performers sitting on the benches next to them which would result in a win-win for both groups just as it does in the storybooks 2:43 PM reads.CMikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13481861530761114492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-57299541376713084062019-06-14T16:04:10.719-04:002019-06-14T16:04:10.719-04:00“"New York was the perfect state to attack,&q...“"New York was the perfect state to attack," these despondent future scholars have ruefully said. As the reigning emblem of American liberalism, its apparent shortcomings let the performative pseudo-progressive complain that Amerika had failed to realize its principles in ways which went well beyond what Mother and Father had said."”<br /><br />If the existence and abysmal academic performance of racially isolated schools resulting from a history of racism, deliberate policy and/or apathy doesn’t represent a clear failure of America’s principles, then it’s unclear what does. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-79836844446016408132019-06-14T14:43:26.292-04:002019-06-14T14:43:26.292-04:00Why should it worsen the outcomes for high perform...Why should it worsen the outcomes for high performing kids? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-58784356474976134952019-06-14T13:40:08.962-04:002019-06-14T13:40:08.962-04:00Would it? Or would it worsen the outcomes of the ...Would it? Or would it worsen the outcomes of the high performing kids?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-4122343406757883232019-06-14T13:09:20.543-04:002019-06-14T13:09:20.543-04:00Will Bob “Jumps the gun” Somerby be as humble as U...Will Bob “Jumps the gun” Somerby be as humble as Uncle Drum to admit he was wrong:<br /><br />https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2019/06/yeah-trump-was-talking-about-dirt-from-foreign-governments/<br /><br />Or perhaps, Trump himself admits the media was right all along, and Somerby can quit trying to convince his analysts that “anyone would take that dirt!”:<br />https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2019/06/trump-of-course-you-report-foreign-campaign-dirt/<br /><br />It’s probably wisest for Somerby to stick with the “Trump is mentally ill” line, rather than assume sanity, however fleeting. It will save him the trouble of defending Trump’s latest verbal diarrhea against a media that Somerby is a bit too willing to attack on a hair trigger. Nobodynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-32962741106860989182019-06-14T12:53:18.181-04:002019-06-14T12:53:18.181-04:00Omitted: The fifth area being New York City proper...Omitted: The fifth area being New York City proper. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-15111856837508976282019-06-14T12:50:43.097-04:002019-06-14T12:50:43.097-04:00Somerby lists these numbers:
“Student enrollment, ...Somerby lists these numbers:<br />“Student enrollment, New York City Public Schools, as percentage of statewide enrollment (2010-2011 school year):<br />White kids: 141,105 (10.5%)<br />Black kids: 289,995 (58.8%)<br />Hispanic kids: 390,228 (66.5%)<br />Asian-American kids: 146,944 (67.3%)<br /><br />Total enrollment: 973,136 (36.5%)”<br /><br />This implies that approximately 40% of black kids, 33% of Latino kids, and 89% of white kids are enrolled in other parts of New York, outside New York City. With that imbalance, those numbers lend themselves quite readily to the possibility of integration. Perhaps he forgot that the study is about the entire state of New York?<br /><br />Somerby says this:<br />“In the school year under review, only 14.5% of New York City's public school students were white.”<br /><br />That is true. Where did he get this figure? Oh yeah. It’s right there in the professors’ report. And guess what? They aren’t trying to hide the number, or gloss over it, or whatever Somerby seems to be implying about their work. <br /><br />There is another, more serious problem with Somerby’s statement as quoted. He limits himself to the figure for New York City, whereas the report actually looks at 5 well-defined areas: New York Metro, Long Island, inner ring, and outer ring. The percentage white and black are considerably different for these other areas. <br /><br />Somerby misrepresents the purpose of the study, and worse, he cherry-picks its findings to fit his own narrative. That is what hack work looks like. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-37831827501867678432019-06-14T12:34:43.362-04:002019-06-14T12:34:43.362-04:00Teachers unions endorsed Hillary. Somerby called h...Teachers unions endorsed Hillary. Somerby called her a failure. Who cares more about kids?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-73000527287123768132019-06-14T12:33:48.641-04:002019-06-14T12:33:48.641-04:00Somerby quotes some stats about racial makeup of t...Somerby quotes some stats about racial makeup of the State of New York, then says:<br /><br />"That's what the average (though not the typical) school is like in the (rather large) state of New York. That said, there's no way to bus kids around this large state to produce schools which all look like that."<br /><br />This is wrong. There is no school in the state of New York that would have that distribution because the various races are not spread out evenly across the state but concentrated in specific areas. That makes the average makeup of the entire state pretty meaningless. It is odd that Somerby attaches so much importance to it and keeps endlessly talking about it.<br /><br />Somerby needs to stop insisting that racial isolation us here to stay and that attempts to desegregate schools are a fool's errand. He needs to join the people who are not engaged in performantive virtue signaling toward the alt-right and conservatives and instead join the liberals who are working to make schools more diverse and inclusive, even if it is hard to do in some areas. Why? Because it is good for kids to go to diverse schools.<br /><br />Based on the extreme effort Somerby keeps making to convince us that this is hopeless, I find myself wondering what Somerby's motives are in posting this endless barrage of stats. Is it to embarrass professors, prove the he really is smart despite failing at Harvard, push people away from calling themselves liberals, what?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-59924100856502617652019-06-14T12:25:54.108-04:002019-06-14T12:25:54.108-04:00“Those claims about the state of New York do indee...“Those claims about the state of New York do indeed seem to be true, if we assume the accuracy of the Project's 2012 data, which are based on the 2009-2010 school year. That said, we're still not sure why Kucsera and Orfield were so determined to declare New York State the most heinous state of them all.”<br /><br />If the claims are true, then there isn’t any reason to be unsure about why the professors made the claim. And of course Somerby conveniently forgets that the professors say “black AND LATINO students in the state had the highest concentration in intensely-segregated public schools (less than 10% white enrollment)” [capitalization mine].<br /><br />Why does Somerby want to disappear Latino students?<br /><br />Here are the numbers for Latino students, 1st and 2nd highest:<br /><br />Most Segregated States for Latino Students, 2009-2010<br /><br />% in 90-100% Minority Schools <br />New York: 57.6%<br />Texas: 52.7%<br /><br />% in 99-100% Minority Schools <br />New York: 20.0%<br />Texas: 16.6%Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-23758954048003860062019-06-14T12:21:18.473-04:002019-06-14T12:21:18.473-04:00Oddly, Somerby says, in so many words, that none o...Oddly, Somerby says, in so many words, that none of the candidates care about helping low income minority kids learn. This is not true. For one thing, Kamala Harris, while CA Attorney General, carried out a program addressing truancy, requiring parents to send their kids to school regularly, because this is essential to learning and much higher among poor minority families. Harris did this because of the connection between low education, poverty, and minority racial/ethnic status among those incarcerated.<br /><br />She was not performatively signaling virtue. She enacted programs to address truancy using her elected office in order to produce change. She is being criticized for it, because it was not easy for poor parents to make changes that would permit their kids to attend regularly, so those parents suffered penalties as a consequence.<br /><br />If you consider Bernie Sanders' plan to affect the lives of low income black kids, it consists largely of increasing the minimum wage to $15. If you improve the financial status of poor families that will help the kids in school. <br /><br />Maybe Somerby wants more direct action? He didn't like Hillary enough to reward her efforts to help black kids, even though she devoted her first years out of law school to working on a non-profit project specifically to help kids and then spent the rest of her career helping women and families. (Maybe her work helping women prevented Somerby from admiring her support for minority kids?) She should have been Somerby's ideal candidate but oddly was not. I think she was insufficiently performative and too busy doing actual work to help people, work that goes ignored when people don't talk performatively about it.<br /><br />Or maybe Somerby admires Betsy DeVos? Instead of performatively scolding anyone, she is quietly giving lots of money to her cronies and to charter schools which are undermining funding for public schools and not being held accountable for anything, including how the money is spent. Does Somerby perhaps admire her non-scolding and think that she is doing good stuff for poor black kids? Does he think there is an inverse correlation between talking about virtue (scolding) and performance of good work? (Probably not, since it is unlikely he knows what "inverse correlation" means.)<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-46735853254256100122019-06-14T12:03:50.111-04:002019-06-14T12:03:50.111-04:00"That's what the average (though not the ..."That's what the average (though not the typical) school is like in the (rather large) state of New York. That said, there's no way to bus kids around this large state to produce schools which all look like that."<br /><br />As was noted in comments earlier this week, it is possible to mix middle class and high performing minority kids with poorer kids, regardless of race/ethnicity, and that too would yield benefits and improve education for the poorest minority kids. <br /><br />Somerby ignores that, almost as though he hadn't read the report he keeps criticizing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-68086560436732723642019-06-14T11:59:22.974-04:002019-06-14T11:59:22.974-04:00If you read the sources mentioned in comments, it ...If you read the sources mentioned in comments, it makes it clear that (1) people do care about the lives of black and other minority kids, (2) there is an intersection between race and class that is especially problematic, (3) there are a wide range of efforts to decrease isolation, especially of kids who are both poor and minority, (4) these are reports of the current situation or proposals for change, not scolding in any sense.<br /><br />Maybe the heart of Somerby's series is his complaint about the way Biden is being criticized for his past actions. Somerby says:<br /><br />"Candidate Biden was recently scored because he opposed mandated busing back in the 1970s. We pseudo-liberals rose on our haunches to voice our deep concern about his highly disturbing past conduct."<br /><br />The problem with Biden is that he also has a policy of never apologizing for anything. That means that today's voters have less opportunity to understand that he would do things differently today (and tomorrow if elected). <br /><br />I cannot vote for a man who cannot apologize when it is clearly important to do so, such as to Anita Hill or to the various women and girls (and boys too) who he has inappropriately touched over the years. Have you thought about why he doesn't similarly touch men? They wouldn't tolerate it. But kids and women have little choice and he does owe them an apology.<br /><br />So, this isn't so much about the past and busing but about the need to acknowledge that better behavior is required of men these days. <br /><br />Somerby decries performative virtue. That performative virtue is a promise of better behavior in the future. It shows understanding of right and wrong. Just like Trump's performative evil in that interview with Stephanopolis is hurting his chances in the next election and confirming his guilt in ways the Mueller report will never achieve.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-4527287700050153802019-06-14T11:57:18.132-04:002019-06-14T11:57:18.132-04:00You sound so cute, Bob, when you seriously analyze...You sound so cute, Bob, when you seriously analyze zombie bullshit, as if it had some real meaning. <br /><br />This gig you've found and occupied yourself with is quite unique, I must say. And fascinating, in an absurdist sort of way. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com