tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post5230886389314076842..comments2024-03-28T19:14:57.527-04:00Comments on the daily howler: LATEST IN THE TWILIGHT SERIES: Twilight of the philosophers of math!<b>bob somerby</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/02963464534685954436noreply@blogger.comBlogger59125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-50899024959924550532012-06-27T18:55:11.515-04:002012-06-27T18:55:11.515-04:00I agree with Daily Howler's post here, and I d...I agree with Daily Howler's post here, and I disagree with those who feel he's engaged in anti-intellecual grandstanding. These matters tend to be a case by case judgement calls, and I can't help but think of the number of middlebrow liberals overly impressed by the late flyweight Christopher Hitchens, and defended his crappy work in terms of style. <br /><br /> That aside, we are at our old bugaboo: matters of war and defense. Most rational people would agree that the word hero has become as devalued as the word "genius" is every time we walk into the Apple Store. But to even raise such a commonplace notion is to set off alarms in our Country, who's real problem is it's "Military Correctness."Greghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288008924419574934noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-75691204441351150692012-06-26T18:20:27.076-04:002012-06-26T18:20:27.076-04:00"however much we liberals like to flatter our..."however much we liberals like to flatter ourselves about our brilliance, coming off as the wonkiest wonk in the tank is not the way to win." <br /><br /><br />So you finally agree with the punditocracy on the reason for Al Gore's defeat!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-3321259062598944112012-06-26T17:55:03.284-04:002012-06-26T17:55:03.284-04:00No, I'm afraid that even academics would not f...No, I'm afraid that even academics would not find it anti-intellectual or inflammatory for anyone to suggest that being the "wonkiest wonk at the table" is not the gold-standard for tv political show hosts.CeceliaMchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16017255006204800193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-80792784176346650492012-06-26T14:27:52.425-04:002012-06-26T14:27:52.425-04:00"Start talking in ways that the people you ne..."Start talking in ways that the people you need to reach -- you know, VOTERS? -- will be interested and follow along."<br /><br />Chris has long intelligent discussions about various topics, but what Bob did here was zero in on a couple of missteps. I really can't tell if Bob wants long intelligent discussions or not--in this post he seems to be more interested in political effectiveness and he evidently has some ideal show in his head that would make progressive points, disprove conservative idiocy, win white working class votes, and do all of this without offending anybody. Other times, when criticizing Maddow or O'Donnell or Collins, he seems to want accuracy, which isn't necessarily the same thing. Bob never seems to ask himself whether his various criticisms of different parts of the press are compatible with each other. Frankly, I have no idea what Bob wants or even whether it is possible. Here's one problem--as someone else pointed out in this thread, if you tell the Tea Party types what is wrong with their views, they are likely to be offended, because in the real world people with passionate views see disagreement and criticism of those views as criticisms of themselves. I don't think Bob could do a show like this.<br /><br />I don't like the MSNBC evening lineup at all and mostly side with Bob on that, but after this Chris Hayes attack I'm not sure I know what Bob is for. If Chris never mentioned Habermas (which is fine with me) and never made a single comment for which he had to apologize, would that be good enough for Bob? Or would he have to be successful in appealing to white working class voters? <br /><br />Why doesn't Bob just start writing the kind of material he thinks would win people over? Not all the time--just some of the time, so we'd know what he is for. <br /><br />DonaldAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-68022007002395042832012-06-26T12:49:45.534-04:002012-06-26T12:49:45.534-04:00"Words like "dialogic" may be words..."Words like "dialogic" may be words, but only a very thin slice of humanity understand them."<br /><br />Isn't this the blog that just hates it when the intelligence of the masses is not respected?<br /><br />Except, of course, when it's author sees another opportunity to bash another MSNBC host.<br /><br />Then we got to dumb it down so all those ordinary, stupid people out there can understand.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-1953139143950918252012-06-26T12:45:23.150-04:002012-06-26T12:45:23.150-04:00Well sorry, but when someone proclaims an opinion ...Well sorry, but when someone proclaims an opinion to be "right" that repeats rampant anti-intellectualism (that academicians talk in, and I quote, "gobbledygook", then he isn't leaving much room for discussion, but plenty of clues of his opinion of people he disdains for their intelligence, while claiming to be one of them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-66653065041265474482012-06-26T12:42:06.525-04:002012-06-26T12:42:06.525-04:00"Bob's point: if you want to "win&qu..."Bob's point: if you want to "win", i.e. convince others, use plain language."<br /><br />Really? Then why complain about the language Hayes used to explain himself in an interview which isn't intended to persuade anyone of anything -- even assuming, quite absurdly, that Chris Hayes has the national profile, and media access, to actually persuade "tea party types" of anything.<br /><br />One might also speculate what, exactly, it means, to show respect to people, when you despise what they believe, or pity them for believing it. If "respect" actually means anything, then you better be prepared to give tea-party types something of what they want. And it you're not willing to do that, what then does your "respect" consist of, and do you really expect to fool people into thinking you think the world of them, when you don't?<br /><br />One would truly like to see Bob Somerby engaging a Tea-Party type on, say, Bain Capital, or the stimulative effects of tax cuts, or the wonders of Charter Schools. Or maybe just trying to persuade that person that Obama isn't a Marxist or a Muslim.<br /><br />I think we might conclude that anyone with a regular pulpit, which these days means a blog, ends up not only as his own most passionate admirer but, eventually, his only admirer.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-46496915087597152862012-06-26T11:18:50.156-04:002012-06-26T11:18:50.156-04:00Somerby regularly makes the same point, across man...Somerby regularly makes the same point, across many of his posts:<br /><br />The only way that people on the Left (whatever that means these days) will persuade anyone on the other side, or the undecided, is by talking to them.<br /><br />We don't talk to them often enough. Many of us prefer our own echo chamber, in which we persuade no one who isn't already persuaded. Instead, we just reinforce tribal boundaries.<br /><br />When we do talk to them, we don't make ourselves clear or compelling. Look back at his excellent posts on the health care debate, and how many times Obama and his supporters blew the chance to boil the issue down to something simple like, "We pay twice as much as other countries, and get less for it."<br /><br />So, he's right to be concerned about people who might have something to say to people on the other side, or undecideds, who lapse into obscure language only known among people who collect bubble gum cards of critical theorists like Habermas, Marcuse, and Horkheimer. Words like "dialogic" may be words, but only a very thin slice of humanity understand them, or would ever use them -- which does make them "barely words."Kingdaddyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18365657233577708332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-14924186144790258302012-06-26T10:41:45.797-04:002012-06-26T10:41:45.797-04:00Actually, if Hayes had discussed THAT he WOULD be ...Actually, if Hayes had discussed THAT he WOULD be more in line with what Buckley did.<br /><br />W.F. Buckley was more an expounder on the philosophical underpinnings of political ideology, than he was a policy man. <br /><br />Let alone his ever having been the "wonkiest" of wonks.CeceliaMchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16017255006204800193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-56786389259451456552012-06-26T10:33:10.542-04:002012-06-26T10:33:10.542-04:00Now you've mischaracterized cacambo as having ...Now you've mischaracterized cacambo as having pronounced the discussion as being "closed", simply by venturing forth a judgment as to which position is the reasoned one.<br /><br />I suppose your being one of a plethora of Anonymices will shield you from scrutiny when you are inevitably inconsistent with your own craptastically false formulation.CeceliaMchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16017255006204800193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-78024043787044879392012-06-26T02:04:24.658-04:002012-06-26T02:04:24.658-04:00"Bob's point: if you want to "win&qu..."Bob's point: if you want to "win", i.e. convince others, use plain language."<br /><br />Yeah, because we all know how stupid and uneducated the great unwashed masses are.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-62385712414652421642012-06-26T02:01:37.178-04:002012-06-26T02:01:37.178-04:00No, I am the one who accused a person of lying abo...No, I am the one who accused a person of lying about their academnic credentials when he called a matter opinion that should be open to debate and discussion closed and "right", because that opinion matched his own.<br /><br />Such closed-mindedness hardly reflects the intellectual curiosity necessary for an academic.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-3464653977489180422012-06-26T01:58:14.849-04:002012-06-26T01:58:14.849-04:00No, 7:04, "tribalism" is clinging to you...No, 7:04, "tribalism" is clinging to your gods and your sacredly held beliefs in the face of evidence to the contrary, while dismissing all who disagree with you as dunces.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-75563302568696657922012-06-26T01:53:37.261-04:002012-06-26T01:53:37.261-04:00Well, it not only didn't cost him Pennsylvania...Well, it not only didn't cost him Pennsylvania electoral votes, it didn't cost him Indiana, Ohio, North Carolina, Virginia, Florida or Michigan either. Not to mention Nevada, New Mexico or Colorado -- all "battleground" states that McCain pretty much had to win.<br /><br />Meanwhile, McCain not only had "Joe the Plumber," on his side, but the "Hockey Mom" as well, who famously said she was glad to be in the part of Virginia where the "real Americans" were.<br /><br />Goodbye, Va.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-60287522075350716972012-06-26T01:37:42.247-04:002012-06-26T01:37:42.247-04:00Gee. You said that in 11 words. How many did Bob u...Gee. You said that in 11 words. How many did Bob use.<br /><br />But his real point is that he will criticize MSNBC talk hosts regardless of what language they use.<br />They are either playing their audience for rubes, or showing off their intellect.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-8910703841112350302012-06-25T23:25:26.308-04:002012-06-25T23:25:26.308-04:00Funny, I knew exactly what Bob meant when he said ...Funny, I knew exactly what Bob meant when he said it was barely a word.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-1046754061970633732012-06-25T23:20:54.907-04:002012-06-25T23:20:54.907-04:00Bob's point: if you want to "win", i...Bob's point: if you want to "win", i.e. convince others, use plain language.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-59814079183633136832012-06-25T22:38:56.313-04:002012-06-25T22:38:56.313-04:00Not "stop trying to talk smart," but, &q...Not "stop trying to talk smart," but, "Start talking in ways that the people you need to reach -- you know, VOTERS? -- will be interested and follow along. That is, if you actually want to reach voters. Personally, I'd rather look smart than win elections any day. Winning elections is so cheap, so common, and anyone can do it, anyway. Plus, when you lose, you get to complain even more loudly about how dumb the other guys are.<br /><br />Chris Hayes, BTW, has always struck me as a dumb person's idea of what a smart person is, just as Drum has always struck me as a non-wonk's idea of what a wonk is.Typical Internet Liberalhttp://til.xxxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-51465691520015431532012-06-25T21:38:02.749-04:002012-06-25T21:38:02.749-04:00Afterthought:
Joe The Plumber and his fans may be ...Afterthought:<br />Joe The Plumber and his fans may be SOL if Paul Begala is right. He reduces the elitism argument to the absurd.<br />Not surprisingly, Begala likes Obama better.<br /><br />http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/04/15/paul-begala-on-obama-and-romney-elitists-for-president.htmlgravymeisterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16075831177588700301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-57578117396886165442012-06-25T21:15:21.866-04:002012-06-25T21:15:21.866-04:00I am old enough to recall William F. Buckley, Jr.&...I am old enough to recall William F. Buckley, Jr.'s frequent displays of erudition, and those did not appear to prevent him from having a huge foundational role in the conservative worldview.<br /><br />It's true he did more writing than television, yet he probably had a greater reach and influence through his old PBS show 'Firing Line.' And that influence was not achieved by dumbing down his ideas or speaking vocabulary as I recall.<br /><br />Now if Hayes began to discuss the philosophical foundations of mathematics on his show, that would be indeed another story.Soflanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-1300997360156579842012-06-25T20:52:22.805-04:002012-06-25T20:52:22.805-04:00If only I had known about a Philosophy of Math cla...If only I had known about a Philosophy of Math class!<br /><br />I could have avoided algebra!CeceliaMchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16017255006204800193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-3121778955647480622012-06-25T20:46:13.491-04:002012-06-25T20:46:13.491-04:00Anon 6:41
It didn't cost Obama the Pennsylvani...Anon 6:41<br />It didn't cost Obama the Pennsylvania electoral votes, if that's your point.<br />I don't know what it cost Obama elsewhere.<br /><br />One of the most discussed issues in politics today is that pointy-headed elites have a disadvantage compared with joetheplumber types.<br /><br />You know: Real Americans would much rather hang out with (and presumably vote for) a beer and pretzel buddy than a Chardonnay and Brie elitist snob.<br /><br />I don't know if any of thats that's true, and I suspect none of the pundits, talking heads, or even campaign managers know either, but it is the official script.<br /><br />This is the point Bob Somerby makes ad nauseum to those that refer to his site regularly.<br /><br />It may not make newcomers sick to their stomachs.<br /><br />If fact, they may feel pleasurably enlightened.gravymeisterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16075831177588700301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-57851038974878820292012-06-25T20:19:29.107-04:002012-06-25T20:19:29.107-04:00It's not exactly the usual thing -- and never ...It's not exactly the usual thing -- and never a healthy thing, I think -- for someone in a good American university to have studied philosophy of math, even at the undergraduate level, while being interested simultaneously in the old obscurantist Habermas.highly_adequatenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-84975383919008919702012-06-25T19:20:14.720-04:002012-06-25T19:20:14.720-04:00We used to term "the refusal to acknowledge (...We used to term "the refusal to acknowledge (or even see) certain facts, coupled with the willingness to invent "facts"' as being extreme partisanship.<br /><br />It's a good point that partisanship is not synonymous with extremism.CeceliaMchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16017255006204800193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-14341529367156572522012-06-25T19:04:44.164-04:002012-06-25T19:04:44.164-04:00"Isn't it what someone who authors a cert..."Isn't it what someone who authors a certain blog might call "tribalism" to expect pundits and talk show hosts to carry certain ideological water and be effective at it?"<br /><br />Nothing to do with this Hayes cases, really, but: <br /><br />No, you dunce.<br /><br />It's not the partisanism.<br /><br />It's the refusal to acknowledge (or even see) certain facts, coupled with the willingness to invent "facts" that is called tribalism.<br /><br />But you've got your straw Somerby, so you just keep whacking (off)...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com