tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post6981740955017303805..comments2024-03-28T15:28:56.510-04:00Comments on the daily howler: BUDGET BABEL: Removing gorilla dust!<b>bob somerby</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/02963464534685954436noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-86256394214352888552022-10-29T23:12:04.698-04:002022-10-29T23:12:04.698-04:00pnjnfnw
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kwjenfknkj...jkknkjf<br />kihihfkkjds<br />ejkjnsdkjn<br />wkhkfkjn<br />kwjenfknkj kjfn jklkwell q[,eyjknnskdn<br />sidjhwiuehiuhd kwjnwekjklmld<br />woosdnpnlwenlfknmlknsd kd djv wlkn j wkj<br />wpjnncknlkwe<br />mwowpoeoe<br />oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo<br />eeeeeeeeeeeeeeee<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />pppppppp<br />mmmmmmmmmmmmmepppppppppppppeeeeeeeeeeccccccwwwwwwwwwwww<br />aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-71989748702205172762012-12-14T14:21:46.505-05:002012-12-14T14:21:46.505-05:00It’s true: The government’s balance sheets would l...<i>It’s true: The government’s balance sheets would look better if the government refused to repay the money it borrowed from those Chinese banks.<br /><br />But no one considers doing that. The only loan which gets treated that way is the money which was borrowed from the Social Security system.</i><br /><br />The Social Security system doesn't have nuclear weapons and a huge pool of military-age manpower to enforce their claims. Also, I may be wrong but the 2.7 trillion owed to SS is only a fraction of the 14 trillion total "national debt." If the Chinese hold even half of that, they hold 2-3 times as much of our debt as SS does.<br /><br />It's a lot easier to stiff the American taxpayer than the Chinese government. Heck, half of us want to stiff ourselves!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-25964382039467282922012-12-14T14:16:09.265-05:002012-12-14T14:16:09.265-05:00It does, however, reduce the amount of money you h...It does, however, reduce the amount of money you have available to spend on things. And if you were in the red to begin with, paying that mortgage payment means you have to borrow even more money.<br /><br />The issue is not the nation's "net worth." It's where does the money come from to extinguish that debt, to use your term. The government can just print more money, reducing everyone's buying power, instead of going to the Chinese to borrow more. Or it can raise taxes, using today's dollars to pay for yesterday's spending of the money borrowed from SS. Neither option is palatable to those with great wealth, because those options reduce <i>their</i> net worth. It's far preferable to them to welsh on the debt, forcing SS to cut benefits. That's what Krauthammer is proposing. Technically, the money <i>has</i> already been spent and the SS Trust Fund <i>is</i> a bunch of IOUs, like all securities are. But they're only "worthless" IOUs if people like Krauthammer get their way and cause them to be so. That's the part that doesn't get stated often or clearly enough.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-56754673600647891062012-12-14T09:37:06.402-05:002012-12-14T09:37:06.402-05:00Shut up, you thoroughly discredited douchebag.Shut up, you thoroughly discredited douchebag.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-65256283788334737552012-12-13T23:11:26.850-05:002012-12-13T23:11:26.850-05:00People in Congress who think the money has been &q...People in Congress who think the money has been "spent" are simply wrong. Social Security didn't spend it, it lent it, which is completely different from spending it, and received an asset of equal value in exchange. The money, therefore, is still in the Trust Fund. Once again, the deficit includes money owed by the general fund to the Trust Fund. This isn't just "accounting tricks," it is an obligation as a matter of law just as the obligation to pay you when you redeem your Treasury bond exists only because it is established by law. Once again, when the general fund pays money back to the Trust Fund, while it has less money in its fund it has at the same time extinguished the equivalent in debt. It's financial position is exactly the same as it was. When you make a payment on your mortgage, the amount going to paying down the loan does not change your net worth at all.urban legendnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-13062406173645337832012-12-13T18:03:23.680-05:002012-12-13T18:03:23.680-05:00I think you're missing the point gravymeister....I think you're missing the point gravymeister. The Federal government already owes the Trust Fund the excess FICA taxes that were invested into Treasury bonds. While Social Security needs some minor adjusting even when including those Treasury Bonds that is relatively minor. The SS doomsday talk is about finding the money to redeem those Treasury bonds or to find some way to renege on them. The FICS withholding was increased in 1983 to build up a reserve for the Boomer retirements. Some in Congress think that money has already been spent on other things.<br /><br />MGOAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-78484647091059998272012-12-13T17:31:35.268-05:002012-12-13T17:31:35.268-05:00Let's say that our government does nothing to ...Let's say that our government does nothing to correct the impending shortfall in benefits when the trust fund runs out in say, 2035.<br /><br />SS must then cut benefits, by say, 25%. Everything is fine. SS survives.<br /><br />But will politicians face their constituents and tell them that's all their going to get, or will they maintain promised payments by taking money out of the general fund?<br /><br />Republicans say they will use tax revenues THEN, so SS will add to the deficit, therefore SS DOES add to the deficit.<br /><br />Democrats say politicians will fix the problem before 2035, therefore SS will still be pay-as-you-go after the trust fund expires, so no, SS does NOT add to the deficit.<br /><br />Both sides are exhibiting wishful thinking because politicians today won't cut benefits NOW, and can't agree on a fix NOW. <br /><br />Meanwhile, we sit around waiting for Mighty Mouse to come and save the day.<br /><br />gravymeisterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16075831177588700301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-89693619506253238282012-12-13T16:45:30.059-05:002012-12-13T16:45:30.059-05:00Yes, I think Anonymous has hit the nail on the hea...Yes, I think Anonymous has hit the nail on the head. The easiest way to deal with SS deficits, not to mention Medicare deficits and all the other deficits, is to simply print large amounts of money. This is what I expect our politicians to do.<br /><br />History tells us that printing money creates a boom for a while then leads to economic disaster. E.g., a book everyone should read is <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Extraordinary-Delusions-Confusi%C3%B3n-Confusiones-Investment/dp/0471133094/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1355434902&sr=1-1&keywords=extraordinary+popular+delusions+and+the+madness+of+crowds" rel="nofollow">Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds by Charles MacKay</a> <br /><br />Read the chapter on John Law.<br /><br />David in Calnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-31434176452186096902012-12-13T16:40:58.050-05:002012-12-13T16:40:58.050-05:00The primary point is where does the money come fro...The primary point is where does the money come from to pay back the Trust Fund (plus interest)? Higher taxes, other government cuts? Yes, paying back the Trust Fund reduces the outstanding debt. It's where they get that money that's the key.<br /><br />MGOAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-3614049584653619442012-12-13T15:15:30.718-05:002012-12-13T15:15:30.718-05:00Sentence correction: "When the government tak...Sentence correction: "When the government takes the money it had borrowed from the SS Trust Fund out of the general fund to pay back the loan, at the same time it extinguishes a debt in an exactly equal amount to Social Security."<br /><br />Think of it this way: the government borrowed an asset, and now it is giving it back. To say that adds to the deficit in any sense is really absurd, because the money in the hands of the government -- an asset of the general fund -- was offset penny-to-penny by the debt to Social Security. The effect on the deficit of giving up the asset and extinguishing the debt has zero impact on the deficit.urban legendnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-38955802804930560372012-12-13T15:06:40.420-05:002012-12-13T15:06:40.420-05:00"Will Social Security 'add to the deficit..."Will Social Security 'add to the deficit' in future years when its money gets paid back? In one sense, yes—of course!"<br /><br />No, that's not right. The government takes the money it had borrowed from the SS Trust Fund out of the general fund to pay back the loan, at the same time it extinguishes a debt in an exactly equal to Social Security. The act of paying back a loan, any loan, does not in any respect add to the deficit. It remains exactly the same. urban legendnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-83271397263088399592012-12-13T14:41:05.050-05:002012-12-13T14:41:05.050-05:00The government is not a private citizen. It can i...The government is not a private citizen. It can issue money and it is in fact the source of money. If we want to continue a tight money policy and maintain the legal fiction of SS as a pay as you go system there are simple fixes such as removing the income cap. <br /><br />If we would prefer to use a more open (and generous) money policy this solution will do:<br /><br />http://my.firedoglake.com/letsgetitdone/2012/12/09/what-does-the-trillion-dollar-coin-do/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-33644572027857418072012-12-13T13:04:18.434-05:002012-12-13T13:04:18.434-05:00Republicans are advocating what they have been adv...Republicans are advocating what they have been advocating for over three decades; remove the tax burden from the wealthy and instead take the money from various groups that individually do not form powerful voting blocks. Who might these groups be that should bear the burden for the wealthy? Veterans, the disabled, senior citizens, the working poor and the middle class have accepted or submitted to unfavorable tax manipulations for decades; therefore they should continue to do so. Once a sucker, always a sucker is the "plan," nothing more and nothing less.gcwallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07990785263482839943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-56981852223419815882012-12-13T12:39:05.978-05:002012-12-13T12:39:05.978-05:00Very helpful post, thanks. Very helpful post, thanks. Greghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288008924419574934noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-88533110167781398902012-12-13T12:28:36.190-05:002012-12-13T12:28:36.190-05:00"That would be a strange thing to say—and no ..."That would be a strange thing to say—and no one ever says it."<br /><br />Please, just give David_In_Cal a minute -- He'll get around to it!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com