tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post7112701512107095454..comments2024-03-28T08:17:14.194-04:00Comments on the daily howler: The doctor was IN: Horwitz doctors a quote!<b>bob somerby</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/02963464534685954436noreply@blogger.comBlogger56125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-5483757858413594822022-06-02T12:33:08.540-04:002022-06-02T12:33:08.540-04:00In Los Angeles, there is a Griffith Observatory wh...In Los Angeles, there is a Griffith Observatory where you will feel as if the stars and the universe are right in front of you, and with so much to see and do, you will undoubtedly end up with hundreds of photographs. You can use these photos to make your social media profiles more authentic than others by uploading them. <a href="https://freshshayari.com/birthday-captions-for-mom/" rel="nofollow">Birthday captions for mom</a>Status Worldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03373877012238205564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-66827642424410451352019-12-23T01:31:10.240-05:002019-12-23T01:31:10.240-05:00https://www.seedandspark.com/user/depoci
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This witness lived a few feet from wher...Witness 6<br /><br />This witness lived a few feet from where Trayvon and Zimmerman had their fight. On the night of the shooting, he told Serino he saw a black man on top of a lighter-skinned man "just throwing down blows on the guy, MMA-style," a reference to mixed martial arts.<br /><br />He also said the one calling for help was "the one being beat up," a reference to Zimmerman.<br /><br />But three weeks later, when he was interviewed by an FDLE agent, the man said he was no longer sure which one called for help.<br /><br />"I truly can't tell who, after thinking about it, was yelling for help just because it was so dark out on that sidewalk," he said.<br /><br />He also said he was no longer sure Trayvon was throwing punches. The teenager may have simply been keeping Zimmerman pinned to the ground, he said.<br /><br />He did not equivocate, though, about who was on top.<br /><br />"The black guy was on top," he said.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-81555043690765892372012-05-23T16:53:25.178-04:002012-05-23T16:53:25.178-04:00Witness 6
This witness lived a few feet from wher...Witness 6<br /><br />This witness lived a few feet from where Trayvon and Zimmerman had their fight. On the night of the shooting, he told Serino he saw a black man on top of a lighter-skinned man "just throwing down blows on the guy, MMA-style," a reference to mixed martial arts.<br /><br />He also said the one calling for help was "the one being beat up," a reference to Zimmerman.<br /><br />But three weeks later, when he was interviewed by an FDLE agent, the man said he was no longer sure which one called for help.<br /><br />"I truly can't tell who, after thinking about it, was yelling for help just because it was so dark out on that sidewalk," he said.<br /><br />He also said he was no longer sure Trayvon was throwing punches. The teenager may have simply been keeping Zimmerman pinned to the ground, he said.<br /><br />He did not equivocate, though, about who was on top.<br /><br />"The black guy was on top," he said.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-72858236215274925062012-05-23T16:50:47.248-04:002012-05-23T16:50:47.248-04:00Witness 6
This witness lived a few feet from wher...Witness 6<br /><br />This witness lived a few feet from where Trayvon and Zimmerman had their fight. On the night of the shooting, he told Serino he saw a black man on top of a lighter-skinned man "just throwing down blows on the guy, MMA-style," a reference to mixed martial arts.<br /><br />He also said the one calling for help was "the one being beat up," a reference to Zimmerman.<br /><br />But three weeks later, when he was interviewed by an FDLE agent, the man said he was no longer sure which one called for help.<br /><br />"I truly can't tell who, after thinking about it, was yelling for help just because it was so dark out on that sidewalk," he said.<br /><br />He also said he was no longer sure Trayvon was throwing punches. The teenager may have simply been keeping Zimmerman pinned to the ground, he said.<br /><br />He did not equivocate, though, about who was on top.<br /><br />"The black guy was on top," he said.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-33011807127569962102012-05-22T18:06:36.637-04:002012-05-22T18:06:36.637-04:00Anonymous on 5/22/12 @ 1:19P,
You say that "...Anonymous on 5/22/12 @ 1:19P,<br /><br />You say that "The fact that Martin ended up dead does not create "reasonable fear" that justified a criminal attack in response to a question." Of course not. Under the SYG law, the consequences might be considered by judge or jury, but they don't necessarily determine the outcome. The fact that Martin ended up dead means that Martin is the only one we can be sure should have been in fear for his life. But we don't know that. Perhaps he didn't have time to recognize the danger. And, of course, it's not clear that even had he been afraid, that such fear would have been relevant. If he were the aggressor, his fear wouldn't have mattered under the law.<br /><br />Note that in some states -- I believe Ohio is one -- the consequences can matter: minor injuries from fistfights cannot be used to establish reasonable fear of death or grave injury. Not in Florida, which just requires preponderance of the evidence.<br /><br />I'll agree to the statement that the *available* facts would seem to support Zimmerman's claims, but that's mainly because he killed the only rebuttal witness.<br /><br />I'll also agree that it was a disgrace to charge Zimmerman with murder, which seems unsupportable from what we know. But a "travesty" to charge him at all? Zimmerman shot an unarmed minor whom he outweighed by 20 pounds. The law provides Zimmerman a powerful shield, but it also provides a mechanism for an investigation to determine the facts. That the local prosecutor decided to forgo the trouble is a measure of the effectiveness of Zimmerman's shield, but the decision probably wasn't good public policy.sorbitalnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-32530557199335951162012-05-22T17:45:56.182-04:002012-05-22T17:45:56.182-04:00Anonymous on 5/22/12 @ 1:03P
Criminality? Florid...Anonymous on 5/22/12 @ 1:03P<br /><br />Criminality? Florida law make it a 2nd degree misdemeanor (its least serious criminal charge) for anyone to knowingly participate in a boxing contest. (Boxing means to use fists; contest means that the participants are trying to win.) Martin was a minor; I doubt he would have been prosecuted. But in this country criminality means conviction.<br /><br />And affinity?sorbitalnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-58535455935226337482012-05-22T13:45:10.312-04:002012-05-22T13:45:10.312-04:00"Then again, he might get a jury with enough ..."Then again, he might get a jury with enough knuckleheads on it who think it's perfectly OK to chase down and shoot an unarmed kid."<br /><br />If a jury convicted Zimmerman it would be because they are stupid, racist, or offended by the law and decide to ignore it. <br /><br />Any of the above will do for MSNBC and "compassionate liberals."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-81060991085701741492012-05-22T13:39:47.527-04:002012-05-22T13:39:47.527-04:00Eyewitnesses, injuries, police reports, 911 calls ...Eyewitnesses, injuries, police reports, 911 calls including Zimmerman's, totality of evidence, logic. <br /><br />Overwhelming in Zimmerman's favor well beyond reasonable doubt or preponderance of evidence.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-22097876266498879352012-05-22T13:30:07.986-04:002012-05-22T13:30:07.986-04:00Nope. The confrontation started the second that Zi...<i>Nope. The confrontation started the second that Zimmerman grabbed his gun and got out of his truck.<br /><br />Now if Zimmerman told the cops that he chased the kid because he was running away, then that's not going to be so easy to explain.</i><br /><br />In no state in the union does getting out of one's truck while legally carrying a gun amount to "confrontation." <br /><br />It is irrelevant to self-defense unless intent to harm or murder is proved, and no one calls the police while in the process of hunting someone down to murder them. No one whispers to a dispatcher that they do not want a person to hear them cite their address or urgently asks them to hurry up sending a car if they are pursuing that person with an intent to confront him.<br /><br />None of the Zimmerman lynch mob arguments make any sense on planet earth much less hold up.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-49258801805185901612012-05-22T13:19:47.330-04:002012-05-22T13:19:47.330-04:00What is clear how easy it will be for Zimmerman...<i>What is clear how easy it will be for Zimmerman's version to prevail, but that's gonna happen when the only rebuttal witness is dead. Which means that the only person we're sure had a reason to fear for his life was Martin.</i><br /><br />The fact that Martin ended up dead does not create "reasonable fear" that justified a criminal attack in response to a question.<br /><br />Zimmerman had less than 2 minutes to formulate his elaborate lies which included himself as the screamer, himself as the one on the ground, with no knowledge of how many witnesses there were to set the cops straight on his "lies." His reasonable fear is established.<br /><br />Martin did not experience enough fear not to backtrack and attack Zimmerman once he got a good look at him. If both men ended up paralyzed from the struggle, each would advance a claim of self-defense but only Zimmerman's is adequately supported by the facts.<br /><br />Zimmerman's account clears any SYG threshold of proof many times over. It's a travesty he was charged.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-16236028154300045692012-05-22T13:03:56.164-04:002012-05-22T13:03:56.164-04:00It merely proves criminality and an affinity for f...It merely proves criminality and an affinity for fightingAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-63110019620488525502012-05-22T12:40:09.483-04:002012-05-22T12:40:09.483-04:00Anonymous on 5/22/12 @ 5:21A,
You're right th...Anonymous on 5/22/12 @ 5:21A,<br /><br />You're right that the text of SYG does not allow the aggressor to kill his opponent. In practice, that's exactly what happens. The bar for reasonable fear is low, and if the aggressor kills the only rebuttal witness, it's very difficult for the state to convict.<br /><br />I wouldn't say that the law will lead to open season on on black kids walking. After all, the law has been on the books since 2004 and we haven't seen that yet. According to the FL Coalition Against Handgun Violence, what we have seen is a ten-fold jump in cases of private citizens using firearms and claiming self-defense (from four in 2004 to forty in 2010). In about half of those, SYG protected the shooter.<br /><br />Let's be exact. We have no evidence that Zimmerman "grabbed" his gun. He says he was carrying it, holstered. This is legal. We have no evidence that he chased Martin. He followed him in a public place. This too is legal. Neither of those action constitute an illegal confrontation under the law.<br /><br />Anonymous on 6/22/12 @ 5:31A,<br /><br />Don't be so quick to flunk people out of imaginary law school. SYG requires only that you not be committing a crime, that you be allowed to occupy the place in which you stand, and that you be in reasonable fear for your life or grave injury or the life or grave injury of another. Even if you're mistaken about the situation. Nothing in the law precludes both parties from claiming SYG's shield. It's not the authors of the law who agree with you. The authors were ALEC and the NRA. The two chuckleheads who introduced the law agree with you, but they're just running for cover. And they're not the sharpest legal knives in the drawer.sorbitalnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-51800067187280533712012-05-22T11:16:08.151-04:002012-05-22T11:16:08.151-04:00For the guy who keeps calling Zimmerman a "wu...For the guy who keeps calling Zimmerman a "wuss".<br /><br />You might think about what appears at this point to be a very likely scenario, given current evidence, one conforming to Zimmerman's account of how the incident started. <br /><br />Namely, Martin simply sucker punched Zimmerman. Among he-men, and even others who are simply civilized, a sucker punch is regarded as among the most cowardly ways to attack a person. If you really need to call someone a "wuss", maybe it might apply to Martin as well, don't you think?highly_adequatenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-58224297101654901782012-05-22T07:09:34.039-04:002012-05-22T07:09:34.039-04:00You mean the video where both kids are wearing box...You mean the video where both kids are wearing boxing gloves and are basically slapping at each other? And both of them are laughing? With a bunch of adults all around them?<br /><br />Yep, that proves what a thug Trayvon was.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-77284302810913366972012-05-22T05:31:54.028-04:002012-05-22T05:31:54.028-04:00"In either case, Zimmerman's self-defense..."In either case, Zimmerman's self-defense was completely justified."<br /><br />Sorry, counselor, but you flunk first year law. "Self-defense" doesn't cover both parties in a confrontation, even under SYG, and the author of Florida's SYG, the first in the nation, has even admitted that.<br /><br />It's sort of like killing both your parents then begging the court for mercy because you're an orphan.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-5045533122660008082012-05-22T05:21:11.318-04:002012-05-22T05:21:11.318-04:00Oh, I'll agree with you on SYG. It's truly...Oh, I'll agree with you on SYG. It's truly a knuckleheaded ALEC/NRA concoction that could certainly lead to open season on black kids walking down the street if Zimmerman walked away without even being charged.<br /><br />But even under SYG, you can't instigate a confrontation, shoot an unarmed person, then claim self defense. At least, that's the state's position in this case.<br /><br />To me, a very key piece of evidence will be Zimmerman's statement to police that night. That's the story he's stuck with, regardless of how much better it got with each new relative telling it later.<br /><br />The Zimmerman apologists want so badly to believe that the confrontation started when Martin began kicking his butt (assuming, for the sake of argument, that's what happened and we don't even know that).<br /><br />Nope. The confrontation started the second that Zimmerman grabbed his gun and got out of his truck.<br /><br />Now if Zimmerman told the cops that he chased the kid because he was running away, then that's not going to be so easy to explain.<br /><br />Then again, he might get a jury with enough knuckleheads on it who think it's perfectly OK to chase down and shoot an unarmed kid.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-45528685268748059062012-05-22T04:57:36.770-04:002012-05-22T04:57:36.770-04:00Braintree here from a public computer:
Have any o...Braintree here from a public computer:<br /><br />Have any of you guys calling Zimmerman a "wuss" actually listened to the police recarding of Zimmerman's call? He's on the phone with them for just over four minutes telling them how to meet him. Not only that, Zimmerman towards the end says that he's lost Martin.<br /><br />Zimmerman claims that Martin attacked him when he was on the way back to his car. There is nothing in his call to contradict that claim. <br /><br />If Zimmerman is telling the truth--and, as of now, there's little reason to think he isn't--then he had every right to shoot and kill Martin because he had reasonable cause to think his life was in danger. And, as a neighborhood watch patrolman it wasn't unreasonable to wonder why a strange kid was looking into other people's property, especially in the wake of a rash of burglaries. <br /><br />But let's call Zimmerman a wuss and blame him for the whole thing because, you know, we're fighting racism. <br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj7qEcD8R-8<br /><br />BTW: If it's me being followed, I turn around and ask him if there's a problem, tell him what I'm doing in the neighborhood, do whatever I can to show I'm not a threat, decide he's a possibly overzealous jerk or maybe someone who has legitimate reason to worry and be on my way. I don't beat the crap out of him because that's stupid and dangerous.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-15105760315472959342012-05-22T02:43:55.483-04:002012-05-22T02:43:55.483-04:00Anonymous on 5/22/12 @ 12:03A,
Thug Life? It'...Anonymous on 5/22/12 @ 12:03A,<br /><br />Thug Life? It's hard to give up on the narrative, isn't it? Martin was a kid, not even 18, and if hewasn't scared when he confronted Martin, he should have been. Kids make dumb choices, and they're especially known for rejecting parental advice. Scared people also make dumb choices. So here we're likely talking about a scared kid. No need to read the mind of the dead kid, is there?sorbitalnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-41647144911997793462012-05-22T00:52:22.688-04:002012-05-22T00:52:22.688-04:00And you know Martin did the attacking because...? ...And you know Martin did the attacking because...? You were there? You're psychic? George Zimmerman is just such a trustworthy fellow we should be happy to take him at his word? Do tell us how you know it was Martin who was the attacker. You'd save the court system of Florida a lot of time and money.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-64795330300324104332012-05-22T00:03:15.523-04:002012-05-22T00:03:15.523-04:00That same tough guy nonsense being mouthed here di...That same tough guy nonsense being mouthed here didn't serve Martin well at all. Don't teach your kids to be quick to physical confrontation, as in this case it often comes with a lot of grief. Reject the "Thug Life".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-55999157950284367352012-05-21T23:59:46.861-04:002012-05-21T23:59:46.861-04:00Anonymous on 5/21/12 @ 5:47P
A wuss who is physic...Anonymous on 5/21/12 @ 5:47P<br /><br />A wuss who is physically attacked does not have an absolute legal right to shoot his attacker if he fears serious injury, imminent forcible felony, or death. The wuss must not be committing a crime, and he must have a legal right to be in the place he occupies. If the wuss has provoked the fight, he must first make every reasonable attempt to retreat or make a good-faith offer of surrender. Should his retreat be blocked or his surrender be rejected, *then* he may defend himself, including the use of deadly force, once he's put in that reasonable fear.sorbitalnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-88694556553449370362012-05-21T23:53:11.956-04:002012-05-21T23:53:11.956-04:00Anonymous on 5/21/12 @ 5:12P,
You're wrong ab...Anonymous on 5/21/12 @ 5:12P,<br /><br />You're wrong about the law. If Martin attacked Zimmerman at the moment he had a reasonable fear of death or GBH, then not only does the law permit Martin's attack, it would allow him to use deadly force. By the same token, if Martin's fear been reasonable but mistaken, and his subsequent (legal) attack had put the same reasonable fear into Zimmerman, then Zimmerman would have legally been able to defend himself with deadly force.<br /><br />If Martin had been merely offended or had Zimmerman done nothing more threatening than ask a question, then Martin's reasonableness could be called into question. That is, if he weren't dead. Is Zimmerman's "self-defense" "completely justified"? We can't know that until we know what happened in the last minutes of Martin's life. We have Zimmerman's story and some reports of eyewitnesses, but we'll have to wait for actual testimony, and even then it might not be clear. What is clear how easy it will be for Zimmerman's version to prevail, but that's gonna happen when the only rebuttal witness is dead. Which means that the only person we're sure had a reason to fear for his life was Martin.<br /><br />These events, however "tragic," are not an unintended consequence of the SYG law, and that law was not the result of a groundswell of "crime-weary" voters. The outcome is the intent of the law, and its passage is the unwholesome combination of ALEC, the NRA, and chucklehead state legislators.sorbitalnoreply@blogger.com