tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post7975677489528422094..comments2024-03-29T03:12:25.623-04:00Comments on the daily howler: The reach and power of Standard Group Tales!<b>bob somerby</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/02963464534685954436noreply@blogger.comBlogger111125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-51198641294736105672013-07-19T17:03:52.877-04:002013-07-19T17:03:52.877-04:00OK, now what kind of statement did Jeantel make? ...OK, now what kind of statement did Jeantel make? Anybody. It a type of statement, generally inadmissible as evidence. Now let not see just the same old hands.<br /><br />That's right. It's <i>hearsay</i>.<br /><br /> Even granted that Martin made it back to where he was staying --<i>still</i> not his father's place, but never mind -- and then "back tracked" to meet Z, none of those legal actions constitute provocation. If you're talkin' to me Travis Bickle style, then I don't know who provoked the fight. Neither do you because you weren't there. And Jeantel's report won't help because she wasn't there either. deadratnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-56745863061485034722013-07-19T16:49:04.309-04:002013-07-19T16:49:04.309-04:00...oh, and a lot of people have said they think Zi......oh, and a lot of people have said they think Zimmerman should have, as early as possible, identified himself as part of the Neighborhood Watch and said that he was just doing his job, making sure nothing was amiss. (this might be asking for a bit too much "presence of mind," though, given the circumstances/assumptions/emotions.)Mike Lnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-64065008505063099402013-07-19T16:09:59.659-04:002013-07-19T16:09:59.659-04:00"Martin would have had to have doubled back i..."Martin would have had to have doubled back in order to confront Zimmerman." You're making some assumptions here of course. You're assuming that Jeantel is telling the truth, that Trayvon was telling HER the truth (maybe he told her that so she would stop worrying), and you're assuming that Jeantel interpreted what he said correctly -- maybe he really just meant that he was so close to being home that he was "practically" home. <br /><br />Also, based on where the fight occurred and the body was found, Zimmerman was almost certainly lying in that reenactment video. It's almost inconceivable that he did not actually pursue Martin further than he said, down the base of the "T" that the two sidewalks formed.<br /><br />"Martin is at the very least the idiot most responsible for the tragedy, not Zimmerman." This is completely a matter of opinion, and I am guessing that it most likely reflects an assumption that no one (except Zimmerman) can possibly know the accuracy of: the assumption that it was Martin who made the first threatening-seeming move that started the actual physical altercation. (I personally believe Martin did make the first move because he seems less scared than Zimmerman during the call, but that's a subjective interpretion and extrapolation, and therefore pure speculation.) And there are many reasons that many people (maybe most?) think that Zimmerman was more responsible than Martin was:<br /><br />1. they don't think there was enough basis for his suspecting Martin was a criminal in the first place (and this is assuming Zimmerman's account of what M was doing initially is even accurate)<br /><br />2. they think he shouldn't have followed M in his car (and he obviously wasn't very stealthy about it either since M clearly knew that someone was following/watching him)<br /><br />3. shouldn't have gotten out of his car<br /><br />4. shouldn't have chased after M on foot, even more so since he was armed (many people think you have to be even LESS risk-taking when you're armed, knowing that if an "incident" occurs the odds that someone dies goes way up when a gun is involved)<br /><br />5. should have stopped IMMEDIATELY when asked to do so (it seems pretty clear from the background noise on the call that he continues his pursuit for at least a good 10 seconds after being asked to stop; and the fact that he was still apparently hanging around the part of the "T" where the fight occurred by the time Martin doubled back seems to indicate that he did not immediately head back to his truck even after ending the call with the dispatcher) <br /><br />There may be even more things Z did/said that would make people think he's more responsible for this whole thing than Martin is. This is just my own list. But the question of "who's more responsible" is purely a matter of opinion, anyway - has nothing to do with fact, and has nothing to do with what the law says. Mike Lnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-50545876508856783652013-07-19T15:46:00.575-04:002013-07-19T15:46:00.575-04:00Why can't I do that for you? Because I have ne...Why can't I do that for you? Because I have neither the inclination or patience for such unpromising effort.Quaker in a Basementnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-37351199958019939092013-07-19T15:40:05.705-04:002013-07-19T15:40:05.705-04:00As I read it, it's not "white men" w...As I read it, it's not "white men" who have to be "perfect". It's people carrying guns. <br /><br />Plenty of rational people bring to this case misgivings about guns and gun ownership - particularly in terms of civilian ownership of guns. Given that, I believe there's a potential to feel that Z needed to act more responsibly *because* he was carrying a gun.<br /><br />I don't see this point being wholly or even largely about race.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-64552893740428248652013-07-19T14:23:21.313-04:002013-07-19T14:23:21.313-04:00And not just put up with BUT ENDORSE!
It's in...And not just put up with BUT ENDORSE!<br /><br />It's insanity. Hieronymus Braintreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05303938809800287873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-50415097728385016982013-07-19T14:22:41.072-04:002013-07-19T14:22:41.072-04:00Someone please explain to me why white men or at l...Someone please explain to me why white men or at least presumably white men have to behave perfectly or they're responsible for anything bad that happens but women and minorities don't. If women and minorities want to be equal then why aren't they responsible for their bad decisions whereas we are?<br /><br />Seriously, why do white straight male liberals put up with this shit? Hieronymus Braintreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05303938809800287873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-61428105218170523062013-07-19T14:16:12.048-04:002013-07-19T14:16:12.048-04:00Once again it's the presumption that Zimmerman...Once again it's the presumption that Zimmerman is somehow responsible if he doesn't behave perfectly. Once again it's the (presumed or half) white man who's completely responsible and the poor frightened black kid who doublebacked to attack him bears no responsibility for what happened. Only white men are responsible because they refuse to treat women and minorities as equals.<br /><br />Haven't we had enough of this shit yet? Hieronymus Braintreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05303938809800287873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-48088824893783865002013-07-19T14:11:16.782-04:002013-07-19T14:11:16.782-04:00Yes, if Zimmerman sees him standing on someone'...Yes, if Zimmerman sees him standing on someone's lawn, staring at the place in a neighborhood that has had a rash of burglaries that is suspicious. If the young man comes at you with his hands under his belt like he's holding a gun and then runs away, that is suspicious too. The fact that Martin appears to have made it home yet backtracked to confront Zimmerman is also suspicious as hell. <br /><br />Exactly is your problem, anyway? Exactly what would you have to see in order to drop you narrative? <br /><br />If you want to get me to change my mind you have to make some effort to show why what you believe makes sense. I've done that for you. Why can't you do that for me? Hieronymus Braintreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05303938809800287873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-15803127502861539872013-07-19T14:05:26.535-04:002013-07-19T14:05:26.535-04:00Excuse me, mm. But what evidence do you have that ...Excuse me, mm. But what evidence do you have that Zimmerman was blocking Martin's path? <br /><br />According to Jeantel, Martin had made it back to his father's place. But, again, the confrontation took place several townhouses back where Trayvon had come from. If Trayvon was a frightened kid why did he not simply go into his father's fiance's condo? Hieronymus Braintreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05303938809800287873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-56555920221826444702013-07-19T13:59:51.367-04:002013-07-19T13:59:51.367-04:00"But if you listen carefully, it is classic s..."But if you listen carefully, it is classic stage fright. Z had already decided this was his moment be a hero. He was going into battle and the prospect was terrifying."<br /><br />Either you have the ability to read people's minds or you are a narrow-minded twit. <br /><br />So, I'll ask you too. Seeing as the prosecution's start witness had stated that Trayvon told her he had reached the place where his father was staying, how is it that the actual confrontation took place several townhouses back in the direction from which Trayvon had come if it was not now Trayvon who was stalking Zimmerman? Hm?<br /><br />Good luck, schmuck. Hieronymus Braintreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05303938809800287873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-22458015635648039632013-07-19T13:34:14.174-04:002013-07-19T13:34:14.174-04:00OK, mm. If Zimmerman had no legitimate reason to s...OK, mm. If Zimmerman had no legitimate reason to shoot Martin please explain his broken nose, the multiple lacerations on the back of his head and the fact that the only injuries on Martin were the fatal gunshot and abrasions on his hands. Also please explain why Zimmerman had grass stains on the back of his shirt if Martin wasn't on top pummeling him. Hieronymus Braintreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05303938809800287873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-40438065289080243272013-07-19T13:30:21.483-04:002013-07-19T13:30:21.483-04:00However, the fatal altercation did occur after Mar...However, the fatal altercation did occur after Martin had told Jeantel that he had reached his father's place. The altercation occurred about four townhouses back in the direction from which Martin had come. Therefore, Martin would have had to have double backed in order to confront Zimmerman. Martin is at the very least the idiot most responsible fore the tragedy not Zimmerman. If he had gone into his father's place none of this would have ever happened.Hieronymus Braintreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05303938809800287873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-6146958083344450882013-07-19T13:22:59.639-04:002013-07-19T13:22:59.639-04:00Seeing as Martin, according to Jeantel, made it to...Seeing as Martin, according to Jeantel, made it to his father's place and then would have had to back track to meet Zimmerman, please provide some evidence that it was he who provoked the fight. Hieronymus Braintreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05303938809800287873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-1030276712025526862013-07-19T12:43:15.994-04:002013-07-19T12:43:15.994-04:00"Trayvon had 4 minutes to go wherever he want..."Trayvon had 4 minutes to go wherever he wanted. He didn't have to lead anyone anywhere."<br /><br />Maybe he could have if Zimmerman wasn't blocking his path.<br /><br />How do you know that Trayvon Martin wasn't paralyzed with fear, afraid to move because he knew Zimmerman was still out there. After he ran away from Zimmerman he tells the girl he thinks he lost the guy following him - the guy that was creeping him out. Then a little later he says something like "Oh shit, he's back" Zimmerman clearly did not stop following. That's why he kept changing the location of where he wanted to meet the police. Because he didn't know where he would be. This isn't a large neighborhood. Christ, it's three measly blocks. But he ends up telling the police to call him on his cell phone when they got there, because he wasn't about to let that effing punk get away. mmnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-52842926534936677762013-07-19T12:10:32.209-04:002013-07-19T12:10:32.209-04:00"....it doesn't matter whether the gun wa..."....it doesn't matter whether the gun was out or not...."<br /><br />Clearly, to you it doesn't matter. To me it does. And apparently Zimmerman thought it mattered as evident in the telling of his vague, incoherent and logic defying story he told the police. mmnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-18334735108883543812013-07-19T11:52:55.451-04:002013-07-19T11:52:55.451-04:00What someone did in the past is irrelevant if they...What someone did in the past is irrelevant if they attack you and start bashing your head on the pavement. <br /><br />And the possibility that is EXACTLY what happened is something that couldn't be excluded by the witnesses, the evidence, and ultimately, the jurors.<br /><br />Can you tell me how you know that couldn't be what happened?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-54216257320590382552013-07-19T11:48:28.147-04:002013-07-19T11:48:28.147-04:00"why didn't Zimmerman just talk to Martin..."why didn't Zimmerman just talk to Martin?"<br /><br />We, including you, don't know that he didn't!<br /><br />"I deal with teenagers a lot in my work and they just don't engage strange adults in conversation."<br /><br />Do they ever attack you? Do they ever get you down on the ground and bash your head on the sidewalk a bit?<br /><br />Because as far as you know, that's exactly what may have happened in this case.<br /><br />The jury definitely decided they couldn't send a man to jail because they couldn't exclude the real possibility he was defending himself from such an attack.<br /><br />Maybe, while the jurors were also quite aware that adults and children are different, that wasn't the deciding factor in wondering whether self-defense was possibly necessary, even against a mere teenager.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-5970249883984082922013-07-19T11:41:25.911-04:002013-07-19T11:41:25.911-04:00And Martin, he had options too. We don't reall...And Martin, he had options too. We don't really know how he chose to exercise those options. <br /><br />One possibility that contradicts no evidence and that is supported by much evidence is that he decided to attack that "cracker" and that he was getting the best of Zimmerman, smacking the back of his head on the pavement.<br /><br />Maybe the little kid should've just "used his words" and gone home.<br /><br />We don't know.<br /><br />But the jury certainly decided they couldn't rule out that Zimmerman might've been right to defend himself. <br /><br />The jury, looking at the evidence and arguments and law, decided they couldn't send a man to jail on these charges.<br /><br />Maybe they were on to something there, those jurors.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-64969104315461647752013-07-19T11:24:14.074-04:002013-07-19T11:24:14.074-04:00I believe Zimmerman told police he was "afrai...I believe Zimmerman told police he was "afraid" of Martin before he got out of the car. Assuming he's telling the truth, he went looking for him in that frame of mind, with a gun at the ready. He was wasn't out walking his poodle. Police were on the scene within minutes. If he was afraid, he should have stayed in the car. If Trayvon was afraid, he should have skedaddled on home, like his fat girlfriend told him. <br /><br />I don't how the discussion got to be so exclusively about rights and legality. But then, it always does. To borrow from critic Lionel Trilling, along with the right to do X or Y goes the "moral obligation to be intelligent."Jeeves Stumphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17716700263908484003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-49479616167613959722013-07-19T11:05:19.337-04:002013-07-19T11:05:19.337-04:00"And don't tell me he didn't draw his..."And don't tell me he didn't draw his gun before the encounter. It defies logic."<br /><br />You don't assume facts not in evidence simply because the story seems more logical with your fantasy included. You don't have to be "Quick Draw McGraw" in a fight where the other person has no gun -- there is no time element involved because you are not outdrawing anyone. "Whip his pistol out" doesn't apply either. He just needs to get it out. Martin was on top of him, so aiming is not even an issue. You have no idea what a trained policeman could or couldn't have done. Further, it doesn't matter whether the gun was out or not. Martin was hitting him. That is assault and a reason to fear for his life, no matter where the pistol was. It defies logic that anyone, even a teenager, would attack barehanded a man with a drawn pistol. So your suggestion also defies logic.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-41875812819306611062013-07-19T10:41:07.945-04:002013-07-19T10:41:07.945-04:00And part of this is the ridiculous narrowing of op...And part of this is the ridiculous narrowing of options that Zimmerman supporters are engaging in. <br />It doesn't have to be a belligerent challenge on WHETHER TO STAY IN THE CAR or not. <br />Zimmerman had lots of options. He could stay in the car and talk to the kid, he could get out of the car and talk to the kid, he could wait for police who might be more capable than he is of talking to the kid! <br />We tell little kids "use your words!" to avoid a fight. One would think a 29 year old would have the capacity to ask a question without a police escort. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-81775614238530791722013-07-19T10:28:49.097-04:002013-07-19T10:28:49.097-04:00Okay, but I think you have to ask: why didn't ...Okay, but I think you have to ask: why didn't Zimmerman just talk to Martin? <br /><br />One of the things I dislike about the commentary on this case is how Zimmerman and Martin are portrayed as two adults making decisions. Zimmerman is the adult. Martin was 3 weeks past 16. One would think Zimmerman would be aware of the differences between 17 year olds and adults because I have been told repeatedly that Zimmerman volunteered in some capacity with children. <br /><br />A 17 year old isn't SIX, but he isn't THIRTY either. I deal with teenagers a lot in my work and they just don't engage strange adults in conversation. <br /><br />Martin's phone conversation with his friend strikes me as fairly typical, making fun of the adult, the adult as 'the other". We just aren't in the same world as they are. <br /><br />I think the onus is on the adult to initiate an exchange of information. Had Zimmerman simply asked Martin where he lived (he could have done this FROM his car!) the whole thing might have been avoided. You know, POLICE are pretty good at it, here, anyway. They talk to teenagers! They don't expect the teenagers to clear up misunderstandings or volunteer information. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-45699809303388742252013-07-19T09:59:56.702-04:002013-07-19T09:59:56.702-04:00Can you please tell me of what violent crime Trayv...Can you please tell me of what violent crime Trayvon Martin was ever charged with, let alone convicted?<br /><br />And can you tell me how Zimmerman knew that Martin was a violent criminal instead of a kid walking back home?<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-5895098080356852092013-07-19T06:28:59.621-04:002013-07-19T06:28:59.621-04:00Yeah - his latest pearls of wisdom effectively amo...Yeah - his latest pearls of wisdom effectively amount to "some of my best friends are black (kids) "<br /><br />The guy has always been like a toothache - but this case seems to have brought out the worst in him.<br /><br />Send that resume' to Fox - blogger - they'd love ya.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com