tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post923175885816044308..comments2024-03-29T04:44:59.952-04:00Comments on the daily howler: WHICH TRIBE REEZUNS BETTER: Their tribe is nuts!<b>bob somerby</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/02963464534685954436noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-19732248599831204332012-05-14T12:44:18.746-04:002012-05-14T12:44:18.746-04:00"As if by tribal instinct, Hayes overstated t..."As if by tribal instinct, Hayes overstated the degree of difference in personality traits between members of the two tribes."<br /><br />Is it tribal instinct or the American tendency towards hyperbole? Americans always -- errr often -- make the absolute statement. Still, a journalist should be more guarded against it.hungeskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14348401324427102310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-48308055118587137032012-05-13T04:50:14.219-04:002012-05-13T04:50:14.219-04:00Aren't we missing the main point? Digby is rig...Aren't we missing the main point? Digby is right that there are conservative jerkwads who will never be convinced of being wrong on a dearly-held belief no matter what the evidence shows just as there are left-wing jerkwads (As usual, I'm looking especially at you, feminists) who will never drop dearly-held beliefs no matter what the evidence shows either. (Studies, BTW, seem to reveal that while men and women enjoy, if you want to use an overly optimistic term, the same average intelligence, there is, nevertheless a distinctly greater deviation among men. What that means, my lovelies, is that the dumbest men are generally stupider than the stupidest women while the reverse is also true. Therefore, there is an excellent chance that Summers was right, which is, of course, exactly the reason he had to go because, after all, how can feminists speak truth to power if people insist on pointing out when their factually incorrect?)<br /><br />The situation would be intolerable were it not for all those voters in the middle who don't feel they have to damn or support one side over the other in order to feel good about themselves. The biggest problem with tribalism for us is that it's a distraction from the real task at hand which is to explain to non-crazy, non-right-wing Americans (who, along with good liberals plus the vast hoard of lefty a-holes I don't like, add up to a solid governing coalition) just how badly they're being screwed by the powers that be. <br /><br />Republicans may be corrosive zealots who are destroying the country but, unlike us, they are constantly trying to show mainstream Americans that they're the ones on their side, something the bastids do exceedingly well lacking as they do any apparent scruples about lying. Out side, OTOH, can never seem to satisfy its bodacious enthusiasm for calling people racists, misogynists, homophobes, Islamophobes, etc. and lamenting how stupid everyone else is, especially if they're white and, even better, male. <br /><br />I have no idea why liberals get so upset with conservatives for exploiting wedge issues. All too often they're just completing the work our side originally began.Hieronymus Braintreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05303938809800287873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-23990462614593368992012-05-13T01:29:02.033-04:002012-05-13T01:29:02.033-04:00'Highly' vs. 'Moderately'
A slip!...'Highly' vs. 'Moderately'<br /><br />A slip! Bob has found his slip and that tells bob how deeply tribalism has sunk into poor Hayes's soul.<br /><br />Reminds me of something I saw in MPs Holy Grail years ago.<br /><br />Hayes: Bloody highly correlated peasant!<br /><br />Bob: What a giveaway! Did you hear that? That's what I an going on about. Did you see Hayes being tribal? You saw it didn't you?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-50413398077255217882012-05-12T12:26:48.675-04:002012-05-12T12:26:48.675-04:00It is mistaken reasoning to take controversies, su...It is mistaken reasoning to take controversies, such as the heritability of intelligence or innate sex differences and assume that anyone who objects to a particular conclusion must be doing so because of opposition to science. These are not settled issues. Larry Summers was not criticized because he broke liberal taboos but because he made statements showing that he was unaware of findings he should have known more about. As the head of Harvard University, he should have understood that you cannot state that women do not wish to engage in the same academic pursuits as men and use that to justify inequalities in resources and opportunities on campus (and in the sciences more generally), especially when there are women seeking those positions. The opposition he received from women to his statements is evidence enough against his assertions. Claiming that science is settled when it supports one's own beliefs is mistaken reasoning. Further claiming that opposition to that then constitutes outrage at a broken taboo, not real disagreement on a controversial issue, is grossly unfair.<br /><br />You are ignoring the fact that outrage arises when statements are used to justify actions against certain groups in a particular context -- discrimination against women, dismantling of headstart (for Herrnstein & Murray). Co-opting these legitimate protests to support your point that opposition to "science" occurs on both sides doesn't work here because there is no agreement about the science (in fact considerable disagreement about it) and because there is opposition to the policies urged based on that science, not simply the science itself.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-58838146632984114992012-05-11T17:39:20.045-04:002012-05-11T17:39:20.045-04:00Is this the same Daily Howler who went NUTS when O...Is this the same Daily Howler who went NUTS when O'Donnell gave a small, polite on air complement to the late Tony Bankley? Look it up. <br /> I know we ALL think we are above it all... but some days we here we are reading a tribe of one.Greghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288008924419574934noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-8853600001711294822012-05-11T17:36:52.091-04:002012-05-11T17:36:52.091-04:00Hi, all!
I do hope you try reading Jonathan Haidt...Hi, all!<br /><br />I do hope you try reading Jonathan Haidt's "The Righteous Mind." It's really well-written. And really disturbing if you like to think that people are capable of reasoning their way to good behavior. (And I have nothing to gain here...no financial stakes, no whatever. I just found it fascinating.)Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05630222099564418320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-47432853467776731862012-05-11T14:39:30.333-04:002012-05-11T14:39:30.333-04:00And of course, where does the Mourdock mindset get...And of course, where does the Mourdock mindset get us, expressed by either the extreme left or right?<br /><br />Would we have had the Interstate Highway system if the Democrats in Congress were so invested in blocking anything Ike proposed that Al Gore Sr. told him to take a hike?<br /><br />Would we have had the Civil Rights Act if LBJ was unable to approach Everett Dirksen for help in breaking the Dixiecrat filibuster?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-80397813543067942272012-05-11T14:34:49.327-04:002012-05-11T14:34:49.327-04:00You know, Bob should really take Digby's advic...You know, Bob should really take Digby's advice and go to more of those Thanksgiving, Christmas and Sunday dinners with a big family.<br /><br />We are planning such a mass gathering for the Memorial Day weekend, and let me assure you that this batch of some 50 or so extended family members will cut across pretty much all political ideologies.<br /><br />So Bob can continue to sit at his computer and the basement and convince himself that we are all gathering into nice, neat little, polarized ideological tribes that look down their noses at the other nice, neat, little ideological tribes.<br /><br />But unfortunately, as Digby correctly notes, real life doesn't work that way. You meet, are related to, work with, all sorts of people every day.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-82681959623445374842012-05-11T14:30:46.366-04:002012-05-11T14:30:46.366-04:00You must be new here Every word you write proves B...You must be new here Every word you write proves Bob's pointAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-3671252564254452582012-05-11T12:54:47.890-04:002012-05-11T12:54:47.890-04:00Yes, tribalism has run amok, and it's not a go...Yes, tribalism has run amok, and it's not a good thing. But look at that Richard Mourdock quote again:<br /><br />"I have a mind-set that says bipartisanship ought to consist of Democrats coming to the Republican point of view."<br /><br />Well hey, that's great Dick; I have a mind-set that says bipartisanship ought to consist of Republicans coming to the Democratic point of view. How d'ya like them apples?<br /><br />I'm reminded of Lloyd George's complaint at the Versailles conference: "What am I to do between one man who thinks he is Jesus Christ and another who thinks he is Napoleon?"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-12316848533531420192012-05-11T12:50:08.942-04:002012-05-11T12:50:08.942-04:00'In times of high polarization, members of the...'In times of high polarization, members of the other tribe will always “seem irrational, detached from reality, out-right crazy.” Tribal warriors will encourage this way of seeing, overstating the differences which exist between the two tribes.'<br /><br />Such an analysis might be appropriate in a universe which had never seen cataclysmic war, persecution, administrative torture, concentration camps, state fascism, totalitarianism etc.<br /><br />Unless, of course, it's the view of Mr. Somerby that we Americans or no American political party, could EVER descend to such barbarism at the domestic level (our foreign policy leaves no doubt as to our capacity for viciousness and unrestrained self-interest), and therefore we must accord to all the same high esteem.<br /><br />Move the Somerby to template to other periods of history, and the results are appalling, indeed horrifying -- we'd all be counted, as it were, "good Germans", for wanting to engage a demented opposition in a discourse it has absolutely no interest in pursuing and will use for nothing else than gaining advantage.<br /><br />Does the contemporary Republican party meet this standard of heinous conduct, in the view of "our tribe" (as Somerby likes to frame the issue)? Could the opposition same the same of "our tribe" (whatever tribe that is; Mr. Somerby doesn't say).<br /><br />Well, whatever the other tribe might say it, we need only refer to international norms; most of "Our Tribe" is center or center right by international contemporary standards, and if we're talking about the Democratic party, far right on some issues.<br /><br />The Repubs, by contrast, are off all scales by contemporary standards and would appear to have no interest, none at all, in a constructive negotiation which gets anything less than all they want.<br /><br />What Mr. Somerby needs to do is detail what language he prefers, in such a case, given the varied interests of the "tribes" and their accessibility and readiness of compromise.<br /><br />Or are we all equivalent, simply because we don't agree?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-55580468380172442012-05-11T12:35:51.854-04:002012-05-11T12:35:51.854-04:00"They" ARE different from us! They are!!..."They" ARE different from us! They are!!!!<br /><br />It's their hormones, I think.<br /><br />They have different physical brain development than we do!emptyeyedidiotnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8611810694571930415.post-44773960358542606062012-05-11T11:42:26.134-04:002012-05-11T11:42:26.134-04:00“We live at a time of high tribalization.” - b. so...“We live at a time of high tribalization.” - b. somerby<br /><br />>>> false premise. the problem is a big imbalance of social unification among the two parties. the less pro-status-quo party needs to have more unification.<br /><br /> <br /><br />“Do voters in the rival tribe “seem irrational, detached from reality, out-right crazy?” At present, aggressive members of our two warring tribes are happy to encourage camp followers to see The Others that way.” - b. somerby<br /><br />>>> a largely false premise. liars...not nuts. the grass roots right is at war with the non-'real americans' as they hate anyone who isnt them ethnically and religiously in their minds, and they will use any rhetoric, true or false, which will temporarily best advance their position and which wont expose any more than necessary of their true agenda. <br /><br /><br /><br />“Various leading pseudo-conservatives have been demonizing liberals for decades. During most of this period, the liberal world was asleep in the woods.” - b. somerby<br /><br />>>> and look at the positive effect such politicking has had for the the moneyed interests behind hate radio and fox. somerby would not have the non-moneyed interests emulate this success. hes too pure or too right wing.<br /><br /><br /><br />“Now, a liberal world has begun to emerge—and leading players in that world are eager to tell us demon tales too. To wit: Conservatives and Republicans are bigots and racists.”<br /><br />>>> thats the elan vital of the gop. <br /><br /><br /><br />“Their limbic brains aren’t working correctly.” - bob somerby says incredulously<br /><br />>>> false premise. not incorrectly but differently to some degree among a certain percentage. nature or nuture? i believe that most likely its the attitudes observed from birth and even before (hormonally) which have caused differences of physical brain development.<br /><br />in america the on-the-ground right lives in a world of fear, as did their fore-bearers many generations back; a fear of an ongoing invasion and usurpation of their country and culture by non-realamericans and before that native americans, people not of their tribe or gang, so to speak.emptyeyesnoreply@blogger.com