OF HUMAN DISCERNMENT: We admired a statement of values...

WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 18, 2023

...made by an unnamed group: After the recent murderous attacks—after the hostage-taking was over—various people and various organizations offered various quick assessments.

As we noted yesterday, it's hard to offer a perfect moral formulation in the face of such murderous conduct—in the face of a torturous situation which has lasted these many long years. Writing in the New York Times, Pamela Paul offered this at the end of an opinion column:

PAUL (10/14/23): In an academic atmosphere in which people can be divided between colonizers and colonized, oppressors and oppressed, with individuals judged by their identity, many students don’t seem to understand that you don’t have to be Jewish or Zionist to recognize terrorism. That you don’t have to be right-wing to denounce the slaughter of women and children. Condemning violence and the barbaric rape and murder of civilians doesn’t require taking a side.

It takes basic morality. Everyone at Stanford should know that.

In effect, Paul was denouncing "the slaughter of women and children," along with "the barbaric rape and murder of civilians."

In the most obvious way, she's right! As a general matter, denunciations of that type "don't require taking a side." Presumably, "barbaric rape and murder" are always morally wrong, as is "the slaughter of women and children" (and conceivably, the slaughter of men.)

As a general matter, very few readers of the Times would disagree with those moral precepts. That said, the relationship between the state of Israel and the Palestinian people has a long and complex history, with many killings experienced on various sides.

Which killings count as barbaric? Which killings count as slaughter? We ask such questions for a reason:

By the time Paul's column appeared, many Palestinian women and children had died in Israeli counterattacks. 

In a long-standing situation like this, it's very, very, very hard to reach agreement on which killings count as "slaughters" and which killings do not. That said, we saw one statement in reaction to this new outbreak of killings which started off in a way we very much admired.

Never mind who made the statement! The statement started like this:

[NAME OF ORGANIZATION] believes in peace, equality, and freedom for all Palestinians and Israelis. We deeply mourn the loss of life in the region and unequivocally condemn all hatred and the killing of all civilians. Our sympathy and condolences go out to those who have lost loved ones or have loved ones in harm’s way...

The statement continued from there. It started by expressing deepest best wishes for the innocents on both sides of this endless conflict—Palestinians and Israelis, Israelis and Palestinians both.

Such statements can only set an initial framework. There will be no magical way to resolve this intractable conflict.

That said, we admired the way that statement began. We also admired the way Bret Stephens approached the situation at the start of yesterday's column in the New York Times, without necessarily agreeing with where he ended up.

For now, forget his somewhat fuzzy headline. He started out as shown:

STEPHENS (10/17/23): On Friday the Israeli government gave civilians in the northern Gaza Strip 24 hours to evacuate to the southern part of the territory, in anticipation of a major military offensive. Hamas, for its part, “told Gaza residents to stay put, despite Israel’s deadline,” Reuters reported the same day.

Reasonable people can criticize Israel for not allowing enough time for civilians to get out of harm’s way: There are, especially, elderly, disabled and sick Gazans—and those who help them—who may be effectively homebound.

Reasonable people can also oppose other measures that Israelis have taken in response to the deadliest massacre of Jews since the Holocaust. It seems neither right nor smart for Israel to cut off water and electricity to Gaza until Hamas’s hostages are returned—not because Israel shouldn’t do whatever it takes to obtain their release but because the people who suffer most from the action are the ones who have the least say over the fate of the hostages. Hamas’s leaders, I’m sure, have amply supplied themselves and their forces with fuel, generators, potable water and other essentials.

We admire the way Stephens began. We say that because he ended up writing a column which bore this aggressive headline:

Hamas Bears the Blame for Every Death in This War

Every death is on Hamas, the columnist eventually judged. We admire the fact that, as he began, he acknowledged that "reasonable people" might not agree with everything Israel proceeds to do, or perhaps with everything Israel has done in the past.

Along the way, Stephens drew a highly unflattering portrait of Hamas. As far as we know, it's a reasonable portrait. With apologies, his portrait included this:

STEPHENS: Murdering Jews is an end in its own right for Hamas, because it believes it fulfills a theological aim. The original Hamas covenant invokes this injunction: “The Day of Judgment will not come about until Muslims fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: ‘O Muslim, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him.’” Hamas later softened the language from “Jews” to “Zionists” and “kill” to “resisting the occupation with all means and methods,” but the meaning is the same.

Following Stephens' link, a translation of that original covenant is here. For most people in the west, a so-call clash of civilizations seems to be lurking here.

How can reasonable people distribute the blame for the long-running conflict at issue? Obviously, there is no ultimate way to do that. 

Such assessments will always involve hotly disputed matters of judgment. For that reason, it seems to us that every supporter of Israel, from President Biden right on down, ought to start their statements about this matter as that unnamed organization did:

[I OR WE] believe in peace, equality, and freedom for all Palestinians and Israelis. We deeply mourn the loss of life in the region and unequivocally condemn all hatred and the killing of all civilians. 

We want peace and prosperity for all Palestinians as well as for all Israelis. We believe that Palestinians and Israelis are all children on God / members of the one human race. That is the place where we start.

There is no magic solution to this long-running conflict. We liked the way that one statement began, with a declaration of basic western / Enlightenment values.

Ironically, the organization which offered that statement has been hotly criticize for its fuller statement. So it can go at times like these. We thought the start of that statement was admirably on point.

Our suggestion is this:

Before we start assessing blame, we should state our ultimate values. At that point, a basic problem arises:

How in the world—how on earth?—might we move forward from there?

Tomorrow: The tragic perspective


146 comments:

  1. The unnamed organization which Somerby coyly redacts appears to be the New York City Democratic Socialists. Why not give credit where due?

    Somerby disassociates himself from the remainder of their statement. That is in accord with his semi-disavowal of Bret Stephens, when Somerby says:

    "We also admired the way Bret Stephens approached the situation at the start of yesterday's column in the New York Times, without necessarily agreeing with where he ended up."

    The words at the beginning of each statement could be considered platitudes, no matter how heart-felt. They are general and unexceptional. The hard part is figuring out what to do after mourning the dead. That is where Somerby bails.

    There is no need to scold anyone over the belief that killing, maiming, torture and deprivation of innocent civilians is wrong. We all feel that. But what about the difficult decisions beyond that? If Somerby will not discuss such matters, how can he expect others to do so, and how then can anyone resolve the crisis that leads to these extreme measures? Crickets from Somerby.

    At least his unnamed organization had the guts to put their name on their statement, including both the uncontroversial and the more controversials parts. It may take courage to resolve this conflict -- not the kind that puts people in harm's way but political courage, the kind that risks careers and reputations. Somerby is not modeling that courage today, but we can hope that others will do better, especially those in a position to affect the outcomes in the Middle East.

    ReplyDelete

  2. "Presumably, "barbaric rape and murder" are always morally wrong..."

    Well, unless our sons of bitches do it.

    ReplyDelete
  3. "How in the world—how on earth?—might we move forward from there?"

    Here are some suggestions:

    1. Don't be scared to discuss issues.
    2. Overcome Tuberville's block of Biden's nominee for Ambassador to Israel so that diplomacy can proceed with US help.
    3. Unblock the stalemate in the House so that it can consider the aid requested by Israel (and Ukraine).
    4. Support the UN and aid organizations dealing with the humanitarian issues in Gaza.
    5. Support Biden as he attempts to calm tensions involving other nations taking sides with Gaza or Israel.
    6. Support Biden as he tries to broker a cease fire and begin non-military efforts.

    Digby published a list of other measures that might be taken to deal with Hamas within Gaza. Many of these make sense to me and would be a starting point for Israel itself as it tries to deal with the aftermath of this attack (read to the end of the article):

    https://digbysblog.net/2023/10/17/what-happens-then/

    Whether you agree with any of these suggestions or not, these are the kinds of specifics that people need to be discussing -- not sincere but empty "thoughts and prayers" type statements that do nothing to advance peace and prevent the next attack.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thoughts and prayers is the ultimate in virtue-signaling, but that doesn't mean it has no value.
      I've been offering thoughts and prayers to every Right-winger who whines about illegal immigration, and it's made me feel great.

      Delete
    2. Today some left winger mayors are also whining about illegal immigration, because illegal immigrants are being sent to their cities. Virtue signaling is easier than actually dealing with the problem

      Delete
    3. Quick, David, turn on CSPAN. Republican House is self-immolating. Fantastic to watch.

      Delete
    4. Don't forget to call your Congressional representatives, and ask them what actions they are taking to streamline legal immigration and make it easier.

      Delete
    5. Anonymouse 1:35pm, don’t forget to ask your representatives what they have done to strengthen our borders against those who enter illegally.

      Delete
    6. Drum's point from a couple of weeks back: The number of illegal immigrants in the country is determined by demand. Border-security measures have little or nothing to do with that number.

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    7. Border-security measures have everything to do with that.

      There is no demand for illegal immigrants. There is a demand for cheap labor. And if there is no cheap labor, business will pay decent wages. To citizens. Or, they will be forced to automate labor, to use machines. Machines produced (hopefully) by well-paid citizens.

      ¿Comprende?

      Delete
    8. Boy, is that the sad truth!

      Delete
    9. Someone seems to have misplaced their Right-wing playbook.
      Every Right-winger knows, if there is no cheap labor, businesses will have to pay a living wage, and a tomato will cost you $7.

      Delete
    10. This is a distraction. People crossing our border would be equivalent to the innocent citizens fleeing Gaza into Egypt. We would grant them asylum and then they would have the right to work until their hearings. I would expect that a functioning congress would pass a bill allowing some number permanent residency on an emergency basis. That's what we've done in the past. But we are fortunate to live where there is not a hostile or extremist nation on our border. That's why Democrats are working so hard to make sure a president like Trump has no chance to nuke Mexico. Even if he were aiming at the cartels, Mexico would consider that an act of war, just as Hamas has committed an act of war against Israel by attacking Israeli citizens bordering Gaza.

      Cecelia is perhaps trying to imply that Hamas might try to enter the US across the southern border, but there is no evidence they are interested in that. They have their hands full already.

      So why revive paranoia about immigrants and the border? Is Fox perhaps telling viewers that Israeli immigrants are going to want to come here, fleeing Palestinian violence? Is the prospect of more Jews freaking out the right wing anti-semites?

      Delete
    11. We make illegal immigrants suffer so much. Do we really have to inconvenience the business owners who illegally hire them, too?

      Delete
    12. And the irony is that it is we who are being inconvenienced too. I went to Taos NM a few weeks ago and tried to eat at McDonald's, but their dining area was closed due to lack of staff. The same was true in the Hilton Hotel, where I waited a long time to be seated for breakfast and there was only one server in the bar to serve food. They were understaffed for cleaning, so the rooms were not ready at check-in time and there was one harried staff member at the front desk. Many restaurants closed permanently after covid, due to lack of staff, but the ones remaining are struggling. As are the local markets, gas station attendants and so on. We all experience this when we try to shop normally. And the lack of agricultural workers and factory workers are evidence in the ongoing shelf-stocking problems everywhere.

      Arguing that we don't need immigrants because they take jobs is ridiculous in the face of this continuing need for labor, especially in small towns and remote areas (like CO's ski resorts). Travel and see what it is like in rural and middle America. Cafe owners and cooking and waiting on tables themselves because they have no one to help. And how does that help our economy?

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    13. Anonymouse 4:33pm, I’m not trying to imply that Hamas might try to sneak over the southern border.

      Who needs to worry about freaking Hamas when there are cartels around?

      Read the post to which I replied.

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    14. Cartel members are not illegal immigrants. They are a criminal organization that engages in sophisticated crime. Blocking legitimate asylum seekers and immigrants to fight cartels makes no sense at all.

      If you want to fight cartels, stop using drugs and support efforts to reduce drug use in the USA. If there were no market, the cartels would not prosper. We in the US are much greater contributors to cartels than any illegal immigrant, much less the legal ones and asylum seekers.

      Delete
    15. Anonymouse 9:02pm, legitimate asylum seekers legally cross the border via established checkpoints and processing.

      We are actually capable of doing several things at one time in this country and need not wait until that pesky drug problem is solved before addressing other types of lawlessness and the security of U.S.citizens.



      Delete
    16. "We are actually capable of doing several things at one time in this country"

      Thank you so much for this club. I'm looking forward to beating you with it on a regular basis.

      Delete
    17. Anonymouse 8:32am, sometimes we all need a beating.

      Delete
  4. It’s time for a new constitution.

    https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2023/10/the-failing-constitution-2

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  5. I would add that it might be helpful if people like Somerby were to eschew cynicism, nihilism and defeatism and instead encourage the hard work of conflict resolution.

    ReplyDelete
  6. The point of Somerby's essay is to raise a fundamental question - How do we move forward from here?
    Anonymous criticizes Somerby for raising the question, but not answering it.

    And Anonymous's answer is: ???

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. “ There is no magic solution to this long-running conflict.”

      That is Somerby’s answer. Why should his readers know any better one? Except, anon 12:27 has gone him one better, quoting from someone who is offering suggestions.

      Delete
    2. Well, it's certainly better (not to mention: more honest) to say "I don't know" than offering utterly idiotic suggestions.

      Delete
    3. The problem is a good answer probability
      requires something in book form, for
      a public with little attention span for such
      Things.

      Delete
    4. Ah, 12:57, thanks for that. “I don’t know” is now the moral stance? Is Somerby going to attack the ones making suggestions now?

      Delete
    5. Yes, "I don't know" is the moral stance. And bullshit-spewing is what you people do.

      Delete
    6. Well, then, 1:24. Why should it even be discussed, by Somerby or anyone else?

      Delete
    7. Normally, it's not discussed. Activists do their thing, others keep quiet. To avoid agitated confrontations.

      Delete
    8. 1:38: Somerby is discussing it here, today. He asks the question “what is to be done.” There are people who are forced to take a stance. Maybe their home has been taken, maybe their family member killed or kidnapped. saying “I don’t know is the moral stance” is an insult to these people. Besides, does 1:24 have any better suggestions? No problem can ever be solved by saying “I don’t know the answer”, and then walking away.

      Delete
    9. But perhaps some feel that saying to those unfortunate people "what the fuck were you doing there in the first place?" would sound even more insulting.

      Delete
    10. I didn’t see that in 12:27’s list of suggestions. Did you?

      Delete
    11. What suggestions? Support the UN and vote for Biden? I already told you what I think about it. Why would you bring it up again?

      Delete
    12. Do you have other suggestions? Somerby seems to be wondering where we go from here. Or is “I don’t know” your only answer?

      Delete
    13. There was actually a decent UNSC resolution, offered yesterday:

      "A Russian-drafted resolution for a humanitarian ceasefire in Gaza failed to pass at the UN Security Council (UNSC) on 16 October.

      China, Russia, Gabon, Mozambique, and the UAE voted in favor of the resolution, while the US, UK, France, and Japan voted against it. Albania, Brazil, Ecuador, Ghana, Malta, and Switzerland all abstained from voting. "

      https://new.thecradle.co/articles/west-stomps-on-russian-drafted-resolution-for-gaza-ceasefire

      So, what now?

      Delete
    14. Sorry, the day before yesterday.

      Delete
    15. 1:53 seems to scoff at the idea of supporting the UN. I’m curious whether you think Hamas or Israel would have agreed to this resolution, had it passed.

      Delete
    16. "support UN" means nothing. UNSC is a place where the USSR, US, and China were supposed to talk and find compromises. It didn't work well anyway (and especially in regards to Palestine), but after the US became the solo superpower, it's mostly about PR.

      As for the Russia-drafted resolution, this is too hypothetical. If the UNSC P5 all agreed, really agreed, then Zionists would easily be forced to accept it, and Hamas would of course agree, with some conditions. But that's the scenario from a different universe.

      Delete
    17. Here's another one, today:
      https://new.thecradle.co/articles/us-vetoes-un-resolution-calling-for-gaza-ceasefire

      Delete
    18. So, are you still suggesting to vote for Biden to achieve world peace?

      Delete
    19. The UN is a very large organization engages in many activities beyond what the Security Council decides. They help refugees and stateless people, for one thing. They intervene in conflicts to help citizens caught in the crossfire. My idea of supporting the UN would be to send money to help such efforts. I tend to support UNICEF because it is specific to children but there are other agencies you might contribute to, much as people support the Red Cross and other non-governmental aid organizations. Whatever happens that help is needed.

      I am unclear on the timing of the resolutions, but it may be that China, Russia, etc. were asking for a cease-fire to stop Israel's retaliation. I agree with mh that it wouldn't have done that -- so voting with Israel keeps them listening to the US without alienating them by opposing an inevitable response and prevents Israel from becoming an outlaw state in opposition to UN resolutions, so that the UN can influence Israel later on the issues that follow. In other words, the US vote was strategic not principled, since we would all prefer a cease-fire except those who feel such an attack must be answered as a matter of honor and self-preservation.

      And yes, I think Biden is our best advocate for world peace. I do think it would be interesting to know who Trump would support in that situation, since he is allied with both Russia and Israel -- he would have to choose. We have seen him excoriate Netanyahu until the GOP told him to back off. Was that at Russia's urging? Is that his attempt to stand by both Israel and Russia -- blaming Netanyah for failing Israel?

      Delete
  7. I take it back. I didn't see Anon 12:27.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Corby is adorable.

    ReplyDelete
  9. If you care about all Israelis and Palestinians, you should look at who cares about civilians one each side. Israel does, to a degree. That's why they sacrifice some amount of military advantage to allow Palestinians to flee the war zone.

    Hamas obviously doesn't care about Israeli lives. But, they also don't care about Palestinian lives. So they prevent Palestinian civilians from fleeing the war zone. And, they store explosives in a Palestinian hospital.

    BTW in the past, some media have encouraged this sort of behavior by blaming Israel unduly. Palestinian were shown that harming their own people could be useful propaganda.


    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Is Hamas now forcing 12-year olds to carry their rapists babies as a useful propaganda tool?

      Delete
    2. 1:39 here.
      If tTDH has a moderator, please remove my post. I made an error in confusing Hamas with the Republican Party.
      Sorry for the inconvenience.

      Delete
    3. Oh, the online NYT headline went from “Israel Strike on Hospital…” to “…Blast at Gaza hospital…”

      Delete
    4. Anonymouse 1:42pm, no, a 12-year-old must carry the baby of her husband.

      Delete
    5. No, problem, Anonymouse 1.42pm, we understand you’re an anonymouse flying monkey, not a student at Harvard.

      Delete
    6. Cecelia, some states have laws permitting parents to force a 12 year old to marry her rapist. They do that when the rapist is someone known to the family (or part of it) or when they would be embarrassed for the daughter to have a child out of wedlock or don't want anyone else to know what happened.

      What happens in such cases? The girls sometimes run away, sometimes attempt suicide, sometimes become alcohol or drug addicts, attempt to flee the marriage as soon as possible. If they are pregnant they drop out of school and may have additional children before they are old enough to leave the marriage, often without their kids. At the point were they can divorce the man, they can start getting their lives back on track, but they are often irreparably damaged by the experience.

      Delete
    7. I'm not quite certain about the purpose of your comment, which initially began as attempted humor from an anonymouse flying monkey.

      It’s good that regular anonymices have this lesser (dumber) type of anonymouse around for these trolling tasks.

      States have laws against forcible rape, statutory rape, and incest.

      Stuff happens (for lack of a better term), and it is true that there are backdoor agreements and winks and nods that take place everywhere.

      However, there are other reasons for attempting to conceal such incidents that have nothing to do with the influence of religion or Bible Belt culture.

      Delete
    8. The problem is that what you took as humor was actually a political comment about right wing attacks on abortion rights. Your own attempt at humor, about 12 year old girls having husbands, was offensive because you clearly do not care about what happens to such girls lives, what being raped and pregnant does to their future prospects. We know what happens to such girls and I was attempting to remind you that this is real and hurts those 12 year old girls.

      "Stuff happens" is an unacceptable answer, showing callousness. Those girls need to be protected from adults who are trying to evade those rape and incest laws. Increasing the legal marriage age is one way to do that. So your joke wasn't particularly funny.

      This sorts of "misunderstandings" may be part of what is driving the right and left further apart. Coming to a liberal blog and making "jokes" that remind us that you are the obstacle to progress in helping those 12 year olds, is a particularly stupid thing to do if you support Somerby's goal of finding common ground and healing the rift.

      I support this organization in their efforts to end child marriage in all states:

      https://www.unchainedatlast.org/laws-to-end-child-marriage/

      Delete
  10. Though not at all on the subject of media
    criticism (and there is a lot one could say
    on that subject related to this conflict)
    Bob’s observations are thoughtful today.
    One fears in his conclusion to “look
    forward” lurks one of the central problems
    of our days, we allow the the disasters
    of our time to pass with little or no
    review or accountability. This is
    certainly a bipartisan problem, though
    Bob’s obnoxious take on Trump
    Is the pathetic, perfect example.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "Bob's obnoxious take on Trump
      Is the pathetic, perfect example."

      Simply bizarre. Somerby doesn't mention Trump at all in today's essay. I guess Anon is just a Somerby-hater.

      Delete
    2. He’s obviously talking about Somerby’s previous posts about Trump. It’s relevant to the idea of taking moral stances. Somerby has chosen to attack those who want trump held accountable, as if Somerby’s response is the correct moral one, and everyone else is just out to do a political hatchet job.

      Delete
    3. So, you conflate (a) "Bob's . . . take on Trump" with (b) Bob's take "on those who want trump held accountable"?

      Delete
    4. Just to be clear, my recollection of "Somerby's take on Trump" is that Trump is a sad, delusional, possibly mentally-disturbed man. I, personally, do not find this take to be "obnoxious."

      Delete
    5. It is obnoxious because it is A) a
      dubious view of Trump in the first place, B) made at the insistence we don’t
      look at the situation too deeply (Trump Trump Trump..) C) heaps scorn on
      those who don’t subscribe to this
      idiotic view…..
      You are quite aware of all of this
      Dogface. You should consider “looking
      ahead” at the possible consequences
      of letting Trump slide.

      Delete
    6. Because calling Trump sad, delusional, and mentally disturbed is an endorsement of him in their book.

      Delete
    7. Also, your A and B are eminently
      conflatable.

      Delete
    8. Ain't it fascinating, then, that it took a sad, delusional, and mentally disturbed one to achieve unprecedented prosperity and no new wars?

      Weird shit.

      Delete
    9. (A) You say that Somerby's take that Trump might be disturbed is "dubious" and "idiotic." But what's so idiotic about it? Trump says a lot of crazy shit and seems to believe it.

      (B) Somerby's take was NEVER "made at the insistence we don't look at the situation too deeply." You just made that up.

      (C) Somerby never "heaped scorn" on those who disagreed with this take. You made that one up, too.

      Delete
    10. Anon 4:19 - Sincere question: If you look at the trend lines (GDP, Unemployment, Inflation, etc.), it looks like the "Trump Prosperity" is merely a continuation of the "Obama Recovery From the Bush II Catastrophe." Do you think we should credit Trump for doing something that caused this "Trump Prosperity"? If so, what is it?

      Delete
    11. I'm not talking about any "trend lines" (how many lines do you have -- one?), I'm talking about this:

      https://news.gallup.com/poll/285593/say-better-off-past-elections.aspx

      As for "doing something", if you haven't heard about the tariffs, renegotiating NAFTA, killing "trade deals" -- what are you doing here? Coming up with increasingly idiotic drivel to justify your prejudices? Fine, if that's what turns you on.

      Delete
    12. If you can't see that Bob thinks Trump is a sad, delusional, possibly mentally-disturbed man, and that we need to listen to "the Others" who wish him to be the President of the United States of America, I'm not sure anything will get through to you.

      Delete
    13. The Others have every Right to vote for a sad, delusional, possibly mentally-disturbed man as we have in not voting for him.
      So like the media says, when you look closely both sides are really the same.

      Delete
    14. So, if Jesus were running against Hitler, and I voted for Jesus while my friend voted for Hitler, we would be just alike because we each have the same right to vote for the candidate of our choice? Or are you suggesting that Hitler and Jesus are both alike because we each have the same right to make a choice? It seems to me that there would be major differences between the people who would choose Hitler compared to those who would choose Jesus. And obviously Hitler and Jesus are different. So where is that similarity?

      Delete
    15. Painfully obvious department: calling someone sad, delusional and mentally
      disturbed is a poor justification for
      excusing their lawlessness, or at
      least it would be for any of us mere
      mortals.
      Dogface, get real. Bob’s derisive
      chant of Trump Trump Trump, his
      dismissal of the Jan 6 committee
      (Unfair to Republicans!), his failure
      to ever mention Trump’s victims,
      are all centered on his insistence to
      not look at Trump ( or his enablers)
      too deeply. Lord, you are full
      of crap.

      Delete
    16. Jeez, Corby. Surely it's Jesus vs Satan?

      Delete
    17. If you voted for Jesus, I guess,
      you would be compelled to forgive
      those who voted for Hitler.
      You would be compelled to ignore
      the suffering Hitler created or wanted
      to create, or ignore the damage he
      he did to others, or heap abuse on
      those who called attention to that
      damage. Like Bob does.

      Delete
    18. Should be “NOT compelled to ignore..”

      Delete
    19. Painfully obvious department: Pondering whether someone is disturbed is not justifying their lawlessness.

      Delete
    20. 5:01,
      You have to run Jesus as the Democrat, and Hitler as the Republican, in order for the media to call them similar.

      Delete
    21. Anon 4:42. I'll ignore your bizarre hostility. Let's look at GDP, for example. Here's FRED: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GDP

      It's hard to tell any change in the trend between Obama and Trump, until Covid that is, and then we see a very marked improvement when Biden comes in. That's just a fact, whether you accept it or not. I do not see any evidence here that Trump's policies, whatever they were, had any significant influence.

      Delete
    22. More painfully obvious: calling
      someone sad and mentally I’ll does
      not automatically justifying their
      lawlessness, but it’s just as
      painfully obvious it’s what Bob
      has been doing for YEARS.
      in both ethical and legal terms
      (Yes, they display a very questionable
      grasp of the law), as when Bob insists
      Trump’s (supposed) beliefs he
      did nothing wrong excuses him.
      It’s as dubious when you try to
      peddle it, as you did above Dogface.
      All we can do with such idiocy
      is see how it shakes out in Court.

      Delete
    23. @5:48 PM,
      Sure, Corby.

      Delete
    24. You say: Somerby says Trump's mental disturbance legally excuses his lawlessness.

      I say: Somerby never said that.

      You say: Somerby says Trump's mental disturbance legally excuses his lawlessness.

      Repeat, ad infinitum, except sometimes you mix things up by calling me names.

      Delete
    25. Somerby’s error has nothing to do with anonymouse claims that Bob thinks Trump shouldn’t answer for committing a crime.

      What is unconscionable to anonymices is Bob’s suggestion that almost half of their fellow citizens might not be devils.

      Delete
    26. Amen to that.

      Delete
    27. I really think that hits the nail on the head. Somerby is saying this: A house divided cannot stand. Somerby is also saying this: Nobody pays attention to that warning, so the Apocalypse is nigh!

      Delete
    28. DG, assuming you have read the posts above yours, where do you go from an unremarked upon comparison to Hitler?

      No wonder they combust at descriptions such as mentally disordered, etc.

      As to our country’s future, Bob isn't pessimistic enough.

      Delete
    29. Do I understand both of you idiots to say Bob has not argued all the left wants to do is put Trump in jail because we find putting people in jail satisfying? Or that he stopped paying attention to the Jan 6 committee because it was too biased?
      Or that he has never acknowledged the beaten cops on Jan 6, or the two election workers Trump sent the MAGA mobs after? Or that “Trump Trump Trump” is
      an attempt to deflect attention from what he doesn’t want to examine in any
      serious way? By the way, Dogface,
      I consider your co-opting of Cecelia’s
      “anonymous” name calling, name calling.

      Delete
    30. How about we look at this from a different perspective. We are a nation that started out as 13 disparate colonies, with different religions (Catholic vs Quaker vs Puritan), different economic bases (financed by companies, religious dissenters, crown colonies), and different economies. These were melded under a constitution that allowed for diversity and different interests, protecting dissent and freedom from powers of European society (church, royalty) and a method for resolving differences of opinion while preserving the internal structures of the various colonies (state's rights). As the country grew, it added former territories of other countries (FL was Spanish, LA was French). We have never been a homogenous people but have had to create our own unified culture by manufacturing myths (George & the Cherry Tree) and traditions. Our government is thus created to make decisions and govern under conditions of division, preserving the independence of its constituent states and individual people. That gives us a greater flexibility than European governments and we are the envy of other nations because of it. It is the basis for our freedoms. So Somerby's idea that division is bad, diversity must be suppressed, identity is bad because it divides people, is all wrong and contrary to the values of the American people. We are proud of being a nation that has welcomed people from all over the world, assimilating them while respecting diverse cultures that make us stronger, not weaker as Somerby suggests.

      The problem is a matter of good will and a sense of common destiny. The right has set aside the needs of the many in order to maximize its own self-interest. Without the desire to be one country, there is no way to force those Others to stay with us except through force, as occurred with the civil war. The right wing cannot even unify itself when it has authorized each of its members to look out only for themselves and not consider any shared values or policy. The reason they cannot elect a speaker is the same thing driving the right and left apart, and it is the right's problem.

      Somerby is warning about the wrong thing. He should be lecturing the right about setting aside their self-interest and considering the good of their party and ultimately of the American people. They have stopped governing on behalf of their districts or states and stopped caring about anyone beyond themselves. No one can form a nation or any kind of body (club, church, business, or government) without thinking of others. They need to rediscover what democracy means and recommit to preserving it. We cannot do that for them. And nothing we are doing is preventing them from being more democratic. Trump wants to be king -- he isn't the answer for anyone in America who loves our country.

      So, no, Somerby has not hit the nail on the head.

      Delete
    31. Anonymouse 8:40pm, no, Bob thinks that the media is entirely focused on Trump…Trump…Trump…jail.

      Yes, Bob certainly thinks that the media has pleasured you greatly with this endless discussion of…nothing else.

      There’s no denying that during the hearings, Bob thought the Republicans should have been granted more leeway in interviewing witnesses.

      As to acknowledging “beaten cops”, on 1/6, I’m not sure why Bob would have to that since there is plenty of video footage of violence and he has never questioned that it happened.

      Of course Bob has consistently called Trump disordered, horny for starting a nuclear war, and for dismantling the systems of government.

      Bob has not compared Trump or his followers to Adolph.

      And for this, he must suffer you.

      Delete
    32. How many times do we have to say that we get no pleasure from hearing reports about Trump's behavior or from his legal troubles?

      To my knowledge, Somerby has never said that Trump was "horny for starting a nuclear war" (even using other language). That is your addition. Your odd phrasing "dismantling the systems of government" is not the same as what we have been saying about him destroying democracy. It is like you are talking about "draining the swamp" whereas we are talking about voter suppression and interference with vote counting. That makes me doubt whether you understand what the left is upset with Trump about.

      I assume Adolph is actually Adolf. It must be very difficult going through life as ignorant as you seem to be.

      Somerby doesn't read his comments. He isn't suffering, he is causing others to suffer.

      Delete
    33. “ So, no, Somerby has not hit the nail on the head.”

      Anonymouse 8:43pm, your work here could fill a library.

      You think so little of your readers and their ability to understand the person you are that you are capable of writing such a hilariously coy sentence.



      Delete
    34. Cecelia - When Anonymice start in on Hitler, I figure that anything I might add is likely to fall on deaf ears.

      Delete
    35. Anonymouse 9:17pm, you are now only saying to me all the things you say to Bob. All the things you always say to those who counter you.

      You endlessly pronounce upon what you don’t like about Trump, Bob, Republicans, but after years, no one is able to accurately describe what you have argued.. None of your contrarians are ever able to get you right, or to give any indication that they are aware of what you are saying, or understand what’s really wrong about the things you think are wrong.

      Consequently, you talk to no one but yourselves and really, not even to each other as each post stands alone with rarely a reference or a nod to your fellows.

      You’ve made it a stilted unnatural and rather inhuman environment.


      Delete
    36. DG, before the Corby stuff, we used to see unrelated references to Digby.

      Maybe Hitler will be the new Corby.

      Delete
    37. If you cannot paraphrase accurately you haven’t understood what someone said.

      Delete
    38. Anonymouse l10:19pm, a million posts, all saying the same thing, and no one who counters you will have gotten you right.

      Delete
    39. No, this is your problem.

      Delete
    40. Hitler is an amateur. Corby is the real deal.

      Delete
    41. "There’s no denying that during the hearings, Bob thought the Republicans should have been granted more leeway in interviewing witnesses."

      I'd say not. No matter how many times it was explained to Bob that Republicans wanted nothing to do with the January 6th hearings, he continued to give them the benefit of the doubt.
      That's because Bob was being tribal, and couldn't be swayed by good faith arguments.
      The fact that Bob's accusations against the Left are his own confessions, doesn't bode well for your theory Bob isn't a Rightie.

      Delete
    42. “I’m not sure why he would have to say that since there is plenty of video evidence and he never denuded that
      it happened…..” well Cecelia, my
      disingenuous non friend, he wouldn’t
      have to say anything about it, unless
      he attached some importance to it.
      He clearly doesn’t, hence my point
      about his enabling of Trump. And
      your contention that the left only
      speaks of Trump is bullshit, it is
      Bob who never wants to talk about
      Trump, or his victims, and implies
      there is something evil about those
      of us who display basic patriotism
      by being appalled by Trump’s rape
      of the Capitol and his attempt to
      install himself after he lost the
      election.

      Delete
    43. You should lose the self indulgent use
      of “no one.” You answer every point
      someone else makes with giggly
      nonsense, or ineptly change the
      subject. Do you not understand in
      earnest? You seem too scared to
      engage with whatever actually jumps
      around in that void between your
      ears. Intellectual, you are always
      the trembling mouse.

      Delete
    44. But, that’s our Cecelia!

      Delete
    45. Anonymices, I’m not giggling, but it is impossible to take you seriously.

      Oh, I don’t doubt that you are at war with Bob and must denounce him by saying he has never referenced the violence in 1/6, which is a lie. At understand that Bob unforgivably changed in some way when he watched the treatment of Gore by media liberals.

      Now it isn’t even a matter of Bob not precisely saying what you want him to say, as though he’s your puppet. Bob is at a place today where it’s utterly rage-inducing to anonymices when he does express one of your sentiments or positions. You see that as a challenge to your existence. Oh you gather the troops and put on the battle fatigues when that happens. You work very hard and very nastily to put him back in his place by twisting his words or assigning to him some terrible motivation.

      It’s a pity that he puts up with you and and your gang’s hatred and your mission to mug any commenter who might actually like and enjoy him.

      However, this situation completely illustrates the intolerance, thuggishness, and fanaticism of anonymices, and the integrity of this good man.

      So I’m down it. Carry on. So will I.

      Delete
    46. “ Somerby is warning about the wrong thing. He should be lecturing the right about setting aside their self-interest and considering the good of their party and ultimately of the American people. They have stopped governing on behalf of their districts or states and stopped caring about anyone beyond themselves. No one can form a nation or any kind of body (club, church, business, or government) without thinking of others. They need to rediscover what democracy means and recommit to preserving it. We cannot do that for them. And nothing we are doing is preventing them from being more democratic. Trump wants to be king -- he isn't the answer for anyone in America who loves our country.”

      Why don’t you start that blog for yourself? Why don’t you take up that focus and hit that nail on the head?

      Part of your screed is about the chaotic, tyrannical, and disuniting behavior of the right. Ok. Why do you then disallow any value in doing what Somerby does when he critiques the media, fellow liberals, and society in general? How is it that one blogger doing that is such a threat to anonymices rather than being the sort of cultural and political oversight, mediation, and analysis that you encourage?

      You proclaim an allegiance to democracy, discussion, mediation, but act like it’s Crips vs Bloods when you see it in actuality.

      Delete
    47. As always, Cecelia. I'm open to all Right-wingers who want a good faith discussion.

      Delete
  11. It isn’t as if this problem hasn’t existed since at least 1948. The question Somerby poses is not new. It existed back when Walter Cronkite was supposedly functioning as a “gatekeeper” of information, even before that. Atrocities were committed back then, despite there being little in depth coverage of the Middle East on TV. Cronkite was content to read news stories for 20-some minutes five days a week.

    And yes, people and organizations have made similar statements to the one he mentions here. It’s just that even a broad-minded statement of values like this receives criticism for being insufficiently pro-Israel.

    The statement he quoted isn’t unworthy. But ultimately, the two sides directly involved in the conflict need to make it. And sometimes, as with the Civil War, you just can’t work it out diplomatically.

    ReplyDelete
  12. It might be important to note the conservative religious aspect that is part of the US discourse. Many evangelical Christians have a fanatical support of Israel, making it in effect a part of their religious dogma. And that makes it difficult to make even seemingly benign humanist statements like the one quoted here.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Amen, to both your last two comments.

      Delete
  13. It is morally wrong to use a new nym to pretend that Somerby didn't say things that he has said repeatedly, pretending you weren't here to hear them so they don't exist. Do a search before you make that kind of claim, Dogface George.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. WTF are you talking about? I only use one nym. (And if you weren't a Hit-and-Hide Anonymouse, I might have some small idea what you are trying to say.)

      Delete
    2. I'm being falsely accused of the "morally wrong" act of using multiple nyms by an Anonymous who hides out among the other Anonymice. How ironic.

      Delete
    3. You said Somerby never called Trump delusional, mentally ill etc. Check before wasting other people’s time. Having a new nym doesn’t absolve you of doing that.

      Delete
    4. I think you have a serious reading comprehension problem.

      Delete
    5. This belief that if you do not agree with someone else, then they must be wrong, prevents you from considering new ideas.

      Delete
    6. If I don’t agree with someone, that means I think they’re wrong.

      Delete
  14. Corby has left the building.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Sounds like you are stalking Corby.

      Delete
  15. Somerby seems to think that if we reduce differences between people by deemphasizing aspects of identity (race, gender, ethnicity, religion, national origin, age?) that we will find greater agreement. Let's examine that by considering the average family. In a family, all of the people are of the same race, ethnicity, national origin or ancestry because they are all related to each other. They do differ by age and gender, but the other sources of difference have presumably been minimized. Do the members of families all get along? Sometimes they do and sometimes not. There are families that are seriously divided, some have estranged members even for decades of lifetimes. There are families that are dysfunctional, that argue and even fight each other. There are others that are harmonious and loving. Which type of family a group of related people will become obviously depends on a lot of other factors besides the ones dictating identity. Why then does Somerby believe that suppressing identity will bring any of us together?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. This is a misunderstanding of today's post. It doesn't say we should hide our identities. It suggests that we should begin discussions by focusing on shared values while acknowledging the complexity of conflicts, such as the Israel-Palestine issue.

      Delete
    2. It isn’t about today’s post. It replies to Dogface about Somerby’s ongoing insistence that identity politics are deepening the divide.

      Delete
    3. I'm having trouble understanding the logic behind that statement.

      Delete
    4. Then never you mind and you can butt out.

      Delete
    5. 10:12,
      I'll start. All Lives Matter, that's why we shouldn't call refugees illegals.
      C'mon. Let's keep this going.

      Delete
    6. Are you saying illegals' lives don't matter to you, 1:14 AM?

      Delete
    7. Anonymous lives matter.

      Delete
    8. 6:21,
      No one is saying illegals' lives don't matter.
      All live matter. It's one of the shared values Bob suggests we focus on in our discussions, while we acknowledge the complexity of conflicts.
      Do you have any other shared values we might focus on as well? If so, don't keep them to yourself.

      Delete
    9. @8:42 AM
      What does it mean "All Lives Matter, that's why we shouldn't call refugees illegals"?

      If all lives matter then we shouldn't call illegals illegals, is that it? But one of my values is calling things what they are. Alas, we don't share this one, apparently.

      Delete
    10. 8:48,
      It has been very difficult to find shared values.
      I'm hoping Bob can come up with something.
      I threw one out, but it's not shared.
      Maybe Bob, or one of his readers can find something all people agree on.

      Delete
    11. My bad.
      That last sentence should read "Maybe Bob, or one of his readers can find a value we all share."

      Delete
  16. Suppose it were before the Civil War, and some group made the statement "[I OR WE] believe in peace, equality, and freedom for all Ku Klux Klan members and slaves. We deeply mourn the loss of life in the region and unequivocally condemn all hatred and the killings of slaves and slave-owners. Our sympathy and condolences go out to those who have lost loved ones or have loved ones in harm’s way..."

    Would you find that inadequate? Would you read that as a call for retaining the status quo? I would.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You would have to first make a case the all Palestinians share significant historical, ideological, or operational similarities with the Ku Klux Klan.

      Delete
    2. That would be just the first in several elements that would need to be proven true or clarified to establish this extraordinarily bold hypothetical.

      Delete
    3. Why would that statement be made in advance of war? Read what the abolitionists and the pro-slavery advocates did say. There are records of the debates in congress. It didn’t work because the South insisted on putting their financial concerns ahead of the union. There was nothing that went unsaid ahead of the South seceding and forming the confederacy.

      Delete
    4. It's important to recognize that immediately before the Civil War our nation was finalizing a depraved and brutal genocidal slaughter.

      Delete
    5. Did you watch American Buffalo?

      Delete
    6. Vincent Gallo's work never quite appealed to my taste.

      Delete
    7. David is making a good point. Israel behaves like the Klan.

      Delete
    8. There are innocent people on both sides for which the statement applies. That DIC equates Palestinian children and other peaceful Palestinians with a terrorist organization speaks for itself.

      Delete
    9. Aunt Nelda, David has not done that. The analogy he used did not imply that.

      Quit using Palestinian children and other peaceful Palestinians as your human shields.

      Delete
    10. I don't think there was a KKK before the Civil War in this country.

      Cecelia, David sure as shit did imply that. He has consistently conflated all Palestinian people with the terrorist group Hamas.

      Delete
    11. Anonymouse 10:28am, no it’s you who is dedicated to seeing political contrarians in the worst light possible.

      Everyone, let alone David, understands the terrible plight the Palestinians are in with Hamas.

      Is there a school in Gaza where the students could take a stand against them as Jewish students here have done against the Israeli government?

      Quit calling people haters when you wear that emotion like it’s a Chanel cost.

      Delete
    12. oh my god, you're hiding behind your imagined victimhood again, Cecelia. Not a good look.

      Here is what David was cleverly quoting:

      [NAME OF ORGANIZATION] believes in peace, equality, and freedom for all Palestinians and Israelis. We deeply mourn the loss of life in the region and unequivocally condemn all hatred and the killing of all civilians.

      David cleverly substituted"

      "for all Ku Klux Klan members and slaves."

      So KKK fills in for Palestinians and slaves in place of Israelis.

      But you claim the analogy he used did not do what it plainly did do.

      Delete
    13. Anonymouse 10:59am, you’re a victim of your ego. Yours is the power to disrupt and troll, not to victimize. If you are anything, it is self-revealing.

      The Klan is an analogy of Hamas, Hamas supporters, and slaveholders.

      Slaves and white or black people in general who ran afoul of the Klan are the Israelis, Palestinians, and anyone frightened by such tyranny (the Klan was a threat to whites who denounced them or who treated blacks equally.

      You who can’t stand a blogger for not not hating and wielding an axe at half his countrymen, should be able to take it from there and understand that lumping all these people together as fellow sufferers, each burying their dead, is a delusion.

      Delete
    14. David is a big boy, Cecelia momma bear. Why don't you let him tell us which Palestinians he thinks can be slaughtered.

      Delete
    15. Anonymouse 12:59pm, why don’t you ask him.

      Delete
    16. not my job, momma bear. I can read plain english.

      Delete
    17. Anonymouse 1:30pm, no, you can’t.

      Delete
  17. Corby has returned, ready to get back to work.

    ReplyDelete