THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 2, 2023
A warning from Nicholas Kristof: We sometimes think that Nicholas Kristof tends to get out over his skis on certain specialized issues.
We sometimes think that he tends to accept the findings of the people who get described as "experts." In some of those areas, these experts have tended to be asleep at their posts again and again and again.
We sometimes think such things about Kristof. That said, when it comes to the question of "seeing others," we're inclined to say that he's the expert—and that the expert here isn't wrong.
A few weeks back, the New York Times' David Brooks said that "national survival" is at stake, due to our inability to "see others." We discussed his essay for a week, starting with this report.
The current Gaza war hadn't started when Brooks wrote the new book he was discussing. It started on October 7. In this morning's New York Times, headline included, his colleague Kristof writes this, reporting from Jerusalem:
What Happens When We Lose Sight of Our Shared Humanity
One reason I’m afraid that the worst is yet to come in the Middle East is that the mutual dehumanization is the most savage I’ve ever seen it in decades of on-the-ground reporting in the region.
Israel’s invasion of Gaza is destroying tunnels, ammunition dumps and Hamas fighters, yes. But I’m afraid it’s also helping to pulverize the recognition of shared humanity that in the long run allows people to live beside one another in peace. The poisonous hatred in turn is already spilling over to the United States and other countries worldwide.
[...]
The Biden administration says it welcomes a humanitarian pause, and it should push for this more resolutely as an occasion to provide medicine, water and food to civilians while also seeking at least a partial prisoner exchange. It should also ask Israel to refocus its warfare more narrowly on Hamas itself, because every extra bomb that hits civilians digs us deeper into this crater of hatred and will make it more difficult to ever clamber out, look into one another’s eyes and find a path to peace.
Should Israel fashion "a humanitarian pause?" We offer no view on that question.
At any rate, we've shown you how Kristof's new column begins and ends. And be forewarned—we've omitted mountains of deeply important context.
We expect to return to Kristof's column, and to those mountains of context, in our reports next week. For today, we'll note the way Kristof's framework seems to track the framework offered by David Brooks.
We need to learn to "see others," Brooks said. He called it a matter of national survival,
This morning, Kristof says that we need to be able to "look into one another’s eyes and find a path to peace." He says that the "poisonous hatred" he has found in his recent trip to the Middle East "is already spilling over to the United States."
We invite you to pair those recent remarks. It seems to us that Kristof and Brooks have been walking the same side of a certain bomb-littered street.
For what it's worth, Brooks is still featured on the PBS NewsHour as the conservative member of the program's weekly pundit tandem. Kristof has long been seen as a generally liberal columnist.
That said, each observer seems to feel that we Americans need to learn to "see others" with greater empathy and understanding—that we need to learn to "look into one another’s eyes and find a path to peace."
In the midst of this discussion came our nation's latest mass shooting, this time in Lewiston, Maine. Along with that came a slightly peculiar remark by a grieving father who son had been killed in this mass shooting event.
We'll return to that father's comments tomorrow. For today, we want to direct you to a divergent pair of approaches to the general task of "seeing others."
One approach to this worldwide problem has come from Hillary Clinton. The other approach has come from her well-known husband, Bill Clinton.
For ourselves, we strongly favor Bill Clinton's general approach to this matter. We've discussed it many times before, most recently on September 15.
In this particular matter, we'd be inclined to cast Bill Clinton in the Gallant role. He refuses to turn others into Others, as in this striking passage from his lengthy book, My Life:
CLINTON (page 251): Far more important than what I saw the Pentecostals do were the friendships I made among them. I liked and admired them because they lived their faith. They are strictly anti-abortion, but unlike some others, they will make sure that any unwanted baby, regardless of race or disability, has a loving home. They disagreed with me on abortion and gay rights, but they still followed Christ’s admonition to love their neighbors.
[...]
Knowing the Pentecostals has enriched and changed my life. Whatever your religious views, or lack of them, seeing people live their faith in a spirit of love toward all people, not just your own, is beautiful to behold. If you ever get a chance to go to a Pentecostal service, don’t miss it.
Quite plainly, those qualify as unusual remarks from a major Democratic politician. The overall story is this:
As a general matter, Arkansas' Pentecostals didn't vote for Governor Clinton. Beyond that, they disagreed with him on several major issues.
But as an ex-president, Bill Clinton said that his state's Pentecostals had enriched and changed his life. So it tended to go with Bill Clinton, who tended to say that we don't have a single person to waste.
In our view, Hillary Clinton has tended to take a less helpful approach to this general matter. That doesn't mean that she's a bad person. We'd say it may mean that she, like everyone else, is simply a person person.
Hillary Clinton made a recent statement in which, we'd be inclined to say, she wasn't working especially hard on the task of "seeing others." It seemed to us that she took millions of others and turned them into millions of Others, as she perhaps did with a famous, unfortunate statement during the 2016 campaign.
Some will think that Hillary Clinton was right on target with each of these remarks. Tomorrow, we'll recall those remarks—and we'll return to several remarks by the grieving father in Maine, including some weird remarks from 2021 which were expressly described as "racist."
Is the grieving father a decent person, or is he simply one of the Others? For what it's worth, we're inclined to agree, as a general matter, with what Kristof has said this morning:
The invention of Others is a worldwide disaster, and it always has been.
Tomorrow: What the grieving father once said
Hillary is right on target with her remarks, especially after the way they slimed her over the years. Only deplorable people would do these things. Bill Clinton's views were published years earlier. I wonder if he still believes this now after what both he and his wife have been through?
ReplyDeleteWe know that in Bob’s childish mind, the Fox News watching Trump support bears no responsibility for “seeing others.” As to the Clintons, the central, most consistent subject of their focused hatred ( hasn’t our own tribes willingness to so often throw them under the bus read like peace seeking concessions to “the others?”) it’s quite predictable that the southern man can be redeemed while the northern woman will always be suspect in the mind of Plantation Gentleman Somerby.
ReplyDeleteWhatever. What is striking in these recent posts is that Bob seems to have no knowledge or interest in the admittedly bedeviling subject of the conflict that has cursed the news reports of our lives.
When the leftist refers to 1948 as the beginning of “the occupation”, and the rest of the liberals let that stand, does Bob even know enough to take issue with this? Would he be interested enough to take issue if he did?
Were Trumpland’s Abraham Accords anything more than an excuse to kick the sleeping Tiger of Gaza while the Kushners made off with two billion, with the disaster that followed inevitable? Are we hearing enough informed debate about these things? Bob seems to scour the Ob Ed’s for materials to preach to “our tribe”, that’s about it.
Today Somerby takes a bold stand:
ReplyDelete"Should Israel fashion "a humanitarian pause?" We offer no view on that question."
Is he really undecided about the value of halting the killing so that "an occasion to provide medicine, water and food to civilians while also seeking at least a partial prisoner exchange" can take place?
See above, he seems to have no real interest in the subject. His only interest is to preach at liberals.
Delete"Is the grieving father a decent person, or is he simply one of the Others?"
ReplyDeleteWhy can't he be both?
"They are strictly anti-abortion, but unlike some others, they will make sure that any unwanted baby, regardless of race or disability, has a loving home. They disagreed with me on abortion and gay rights, but they still followed Christ’s admonition to love their neighbors."
ReplyDeleteWhy is Somerby not using the Pentecostals as an example to the right wing, those Others who are anti-abortion but would throw an unwed teen mother into the street before they would provide help to her or her child?
They need Somerby's hectoring more than we on the left do. We love our neighbors. The right builds walls to shut out the unfortunate.
Whatever his comments about the Pentecostals (expressed in his autobiography, written after his terms in office), Bill Clinton knew which party he belonged to.
DeleteWhy does Somerby keep mentioning Clinton's words without citing their source so readers here can look them up and see the context in which they were said? Clinton was then working as a teen-age aid to William Fulbright who was his political mentor. Clinton describes this in order to explain about grass-roots politics, in which politicians went door to door and made human contact with all of their constitutents. It is the same approach Hillary used when she ran for Governor of New York, a state she had only recently moved to after Clinton's presidency. His point was not about his own empathy but about the need to understand the people you were elected to represent, and the effectiveness of such campaigning.
Somerby wants to build Bill Clinton into another one of his saints (like Malala, Anne Frank and MLK), but we all know that he was an imperfect person with a great deal of knowledge and a desire to do good. Somerby should emulate that aspect of Bill, the one he shares with HIllary, not this mawkish exaggeration of Pentecostal-worship in an offhand paragraph in a book that says a great deal more than what Somerby has chosen to quote, over and over and over again (because it supports Somerby's own agenda). I choose to follow the rest of what Clinton stood for.
11:32 - Yes, we liberals love those horrible, deplorable Others!
DeleteLove is a strong word, although with various meanings.
Delete“Liberals” show love for their neighbors through their policies, whereas right wingers, definitionally, only cater to their self interests and urge for dominance.
Clinton is ignorant about Pentecostals, whether willfully or not, who in reality, show mostly hate and distrust for their neighbors.
Hillary rode the coattails of Bill. Otherwise we wouldn't even know her name.
DeleteIf you read about her actual accomplishments, you wouldn't say that:
Deletehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Clinton
Name one significant accomplishment.
DeleteFuck off. You can read. Hint: Look at what she did before meeting Bill.
DeleteThe only reason we know her name is she married herself to and rode the coattails her cornpone husband Bill. She demonized the young victims of his sexual assaults and was given powerful position after powerful and never accomplished ONE THING!! That's why you can't name one accomplishment she ever had because she never had one!!! Not one!!
DeleteNot one. Many.
DeleteName one political accomplishment. Name one!! You can't. She has none. She married into it. End of story.
DeleteBecome rich the American way. Marry into money.
Delete"In our view, Hillary Clinton has tended to take a less helpful approach to this general matter."
ReplyDeleteBill Clinton wrote a paragraph in his biography about Pentecostals. Hillary was a Republican until law school, working on behalf of Republican issues. I wonder how many people know that she spent a year in Alaska sliming salmon in a fish factory and washing dishes in McKinley National Park. During and after law school, she worked for non-profits on behalf of disadvantaged children. She engaged in far more work with poor people in the trenches than her husband, who was a politician pursuing office. Hillary's service to others was real, not fence-post chats or attendance at a church service while campaigning. But Somerby exalts Bill Clinton while reviling Hillary, over a single remark that Somerby disagrees with, ignoring her lifetime of work on behalf of other people. And both Clintons, like the Carters, have done more to help the world's destitute after leaving office, than before their retirement from politics. That is what I admire.
Meanwhile Somerby writes these self-indulgent, chiding posts to advance a cretin like Trump and defend Roy Moore, instead of doing the volunteer work that many liberals do after retiring from full-time work. This ongoing hit-job on Hillary reveals Somerby's character. I would be ashamed to do what Somerby does, no matter how many nice things he chooses to say about Bill and his brief description of those wonderful Pentecostals who live their faith.
"Meanwhile Somerby writes these self-indulgent, chiding posts to advance a cretin like Trump"
DeleteNo, not to advance Trump but to have him be opposed in a different way.
I could not say myself, but do the Pentecostals have a lot in common with the Big Box evangelicals that power Trump?
Delete@11:57 There are so many real things wrong with Trump, I wonder about people who accuse him of false flaws. Trump is obviously no cretin. On the contrary, his Ivy League graduation and his successes in several different fields, including show business and politics, show him to be pretty smart. He has too many successes to attribute them all to luck.
DeleteThere are so many real things wrong with Trump,....... that you voted for him twice and can't wait to vote for him again.
Delete"No, not to advance Trump but to have him be opposed in a different way."
DeleteWhy is this point so difficult to understand, I wonder?
Particularly when the way we're opposing Trump right now isn't working so well. Even though Biden is doing a fantastic job, and Trump is a felonious con man, Trump is still winning. Maybe we should rethink our strategy.
DeleteHector, Dogface, you people may be wonderful, and are certainly deserving of the same rights and freedoms as anyone else, but whether you are treated nicely and respectfully here, or insulted and trashed, you both remain staunchly unpersuaded by opposing views expressed in the comments. Notably, there is no swaying you or any of the other right wing Somerby fanboys from your proudly held views.
DeleteThis is an unsurprising circumstance and has long been understood, which is why Somerby’s strategy would be disastrous for Dems, and a boon for Republicans.
Dem strategists are currently split, generally between older, establishment, corporate Dems, and the more progressive Dems, but evidence tends to support the opposite of what Somerby suggests.
Somerby’s strategy has already been tried and was shown to be a complete failure (neoliberalism/Third Way).
In part because it was little more than merely a strategy, and Republicans do not like to be disingenuously pandered to, just the same as anyone else.
"evidence tends to support the opposite of what Somerby suggests"
DeleteAnd that evidence is what, exactly?
Yes, @12:55. Trump, with all his flaws, is better than Biden. Not so much because Biden is personally corrupt and has lost some brain power. But, because of some truly disastrous policies -- policies that are already causing problems and will continue to cause problems. Some will be unfixable.
Delete-- huge deficit spending that's causing inflation.
-- encouragement of wasteful government spending, which has become unhjaffordable
-- virtually wide open southern border, allowing millions of unvetted illegal immigrants to enter the country.
-- Over-focus on Islamophobia in a way that is allowing antisemitism to flourish
-- Failure to deter Russian war on Ukraine -- something Trump did very well
-- Opposing freedom of speech by using the threat of government power to control social media.
-- continuing to fund the Palestinians, even though most of that money goes to arm Hamas.
-
"Hector, Dogface....you both remain staunchly unpersuaded by opposing views expressed in the comments."
DeleteWhich says something either about us or the content of the comments, such as this one, which takes Somerby's admonition that we change what's in our hearts to be a strategic talking point to be emphasized in our messaging.
Another list of bullshit, David? You're a real pro at generating bullshit lists of declarative assertions.
DeleteTrump and his allies have plans to remove the guardrails in a second term
That makes you a fucking fascist, David.
Muslims and Jews should convert to Christianity.
DeleteLet's just take one of these: "huge deficit spending that's causing inflation."
DeleteWhen Biden took over, the economy was a mess. Biden's thinking was that it was important to get sufficient fiscal stimulus to get us through the pandemic-induced economic contraction.
But how much stimulus? The lesson from the Great Recession was that too little stimulus would lead to a long and slow recovery, but too much would lead to inflation. But the risks were asymmetric, because inflation could be brought under control through interest rate hikes. So too much stimulus was thought to be better than too little.
And that is exactly how it has played out. We had a lot of stimulus; inflation surged; the Fed raised rates; inflation is plunging (3.7%). The economy is roaring (3Q GDP - 4.9%). This has been a fantastic success.
It says that persuasion is an untenable strategy.
DeleteHector, you display the same ignorance on electoral strategy as you do on the criteria for creating congressional districts, yet you continue to stand by your views.
Correction: Democrats are gaining house seats not Republicans.
DeleteJews, Christians, and Muslims, worship the same god, and all follow a religion based on Judaism, which itself emerged from a mix of polytheism, paganism, and Zoroastrianism. Christians were originally Jews that believed in the mythical figure of Jesus. Muslims believe in Jesus but then also add a prophet that the Christians think is a myth.
DeleteIt’s all nonsense, which people are slowly waking up to, as religiosity on the whole is on the decline.
Yes, @12:55. Trump, with all his flaws, is better than Biden.
DeleteDavid, Trump is literally campaigning on retribution. Using the power of the presidency to punish his perceived enemies. You're a fucking idiot if you give him your vote to make him the most powerful person on the face of the earth. After what we witnessed the first time he had that power and plotted to keep it even though he knew he lost. fuck you, you are a deplorable son of bitch.
3:29 - "Biden has been pulling ahead in the polls due to his handling of Israel/Gaza conflict."
DeleteThe polls say otherwise. https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/
And remember: Biden has to win the popular vote by 3% or more to win the Electoral College vote.
I read your link. If you think this contradicts what I said, you don't know much about polling.
Delete"Hector, you display the same ignorance on electoral strategy as you do on the criteria for creating congressional districts, yet you continue to stand by your views."
DeleteAh, it's you Clouseau, bungling another comment by going long on insult, short on substance, always puzzled by your inability to persuade.
" (Biden's) Failure to deter Russian war on Ukraine -- something Trump did very well"
DeleteThis is to mistake correlation for causation.
There is no such thing as a correlation with only two data points. Try again.
DeleteThere's these things called dictionaries. Check one out some time:
Deletecor·re·la·tion
/ˌkôrəˈlāSHən/
noun
a mutual relationship or connection between two or more things.
To calculate a correlation coefficient you need more than two data points. Don’t embarrass yourself further.
DeleteBut it's you who've muddied up the waters with talk of coefficients.
DeleteI used 'correlation' consistent with the definition I helpfully copied and pasted for you, which implies no calculation of coefficients, only a "relationship between two or more things."
Embarrassed yet, Clouseau?
No, you didn’t. How do you think someone determines whether a relationship exists or not? You need more than two observations to do that.
DeleteIf you were correct, then the dictionary definition would say "three or more things."
DeleteBut it says "two or more things", a fact which you continue to ignore in a way that is becoming rather tiresome.
You don’t know what a correlation is and you are doubling down on your ignorance.
DeleteThe two things are events that a statistician would call variables. A variable consists of multiple measurements or observations, not two. If there is no variability in one of the variables , the correlation is 0 which means there is no relationship between those two variables (observed events).
If you are arguing that gaza affected Biden’s polling, you cannot assert a relationship with only one poll and one event (gaza). You would need measurements with and without Gaza remarks by Biden (one variable) and a poll result for each day Biden made a remark. Then you could see whether there is a relationship (correlation) between polls going down and Gaza remarks. You cannot show a relationship with only one poll and one statement.
anon 11:17, if Russia did not invade Ukraine during the term of A.Z. during A.Z term as president of Iceland, but then invaded Ukraine during the term of Q.D. during Q.D.'s term as successor to A.Z., does that mean it was Q.S.'s fault that Russia invaded during his term?
DeleteWh cares about Trump? I'd much rather discuss the Others, morons who think "The Apprentice" was a documentary.
DeleteDavid in Cal,
DeleteIf the government spending is causing inflation to get out of control, the solution is for the government to tax the excess money out of the economy.
We'll know inflation is a real problem, when the people affected by it call for higher tax rates.
Who has called that grieving father a racist except Somerby? No one here. No one in the press, that I've seen.
ReplyDeleteIs Somerby suggesting that we should all change our political views because something bad happened to someone who might conceivably be one of the Others? That makes no sense at all.
"Is Somerby suggesting that we should all change our political views because something bad happened to someone who might conceivably be one of the Others?"
Delete[Raises hand] "Call me, teacher! I know, I know! No, that's not what Somerby is suggesting."
You forgot to explain what Somerby's point is.
DeleteIf you want a remedial reading lesson you've got to pay me.
DeleteYou claim to know. I don’t think you do.
DeleteYes, the world would be a better place if we better appreciated our shared humanity. But, the fundamental problem in Gaza is that the Palestinians in Gaza do not feel a shared humanity with Israelis and with Jews. Two questions and answers:
ReplyDeleteQ1. Can we change the Palestinians so that they will feel a shared humanity with Jews and Israelis?
A1 I don't think we can. Nor Have I seen any suggestions from Kristof or Brooks or anyone else how to do so. I do not see ay organizations committed to such changes and working to effect them.
Q2. If we can't change the Palestinians in this way, how should we deal with their lack of shared humanity?
A2. History shows a parallel with the 1940's Germans. We did successfully get them to appreciate their shared humanity with non Aryans, but it took a bloody war and lengthy occupation to do so. I think that changing the attitude of the Palestinians is even more challenging, because their long history has less in common with Israelis and Jews than did German history with the rest of Europe and the US.
Our House of Representatives has taken a step toward changing Palestinian attitudes
DeleteHouse passes bill requiring annual report on Palestinian teaching materials
“Among other topics, the report must address (1) whether the materials used encourage violence or intolerance toward other nations or ethnic groups, (2) the steps the Palestinian Authority is taking to reform such materials and (3) whether U.S. foreign assistance is used to fund the dissemination of the offending materials,” per H.R.3266, the Peace and Tolerance in Palestinian Education Act....
Textbooks that the Palestinian Authority uses in Judea and Samaria “include graphics portraying violence against Israeli soldiers, positive portrayals of individuals who have committed attacks against citizens of Israel and references to Palestinian efforts to target the ‘Zionists,'” according to the bill.
I hope this bill becomes law.
Link for above is https://www.jns.org/house-passes-bill-requiring-secretary-of-state-to-report-annually-on-palestinian-teaching-materials/
DeleteWhy is "Zionists" is scare quotes?
DeleteDavid, there is currently peace in Kosovo and Ireland, why can there not be peace in Israel?
Delete@3:20 There cannot be peace in Israel because Palestinians in general are educated to hate Jews and Israelis and because Iran supports anti-Israel terrorist groups.
Delete"Yes, the world would be a better place if we better appreciated our shared humanity."
DeleteSo, open borders?
A lot of Others who broke into the Capitol building, attacked the police, destroyed property, planned and led an attempted insurrection, have had a bad thing happen to them. They were tried and convicted (or pled guilty) and have gone to jail, which is a very unpleasant place to be. Should all of us liberals become MAGA because of their ordeals? Or shall we be happy that the rule of law applies even to Trump's minions and that democracy is being defended by the courts so that those who attempted to otherthrow an election by force are appropriately punished for their actions.
ReplyDeleteBecause actions matter. I saw, with my own eyes, a MAGA Trump supporter drive his truck through a police barricade to threaten protesters in my small town -- the protesters were young people from the nearby community college and they had every right to be doing what they were doing, exercising free speech. How am I supposed to understand those MAGA actions and have empathy for them and not those kids who were the target of illegal behavior? This event never made the national news because no one was injured, unlike in Charlottesville, where a young woman was killed under similar circumstances. Does that make it OK for MAGAs to behave as they do?
But Somerby chooses to castigate Hillary for calling such behavior deplorable. Is this an isolated incident? Unfortunately not. I lived in a very small town, but I also saw MAGAs vandalize a nearby house because it dared to put a Biden sign on their lawn. I saw MAGAs shout at those entering the supermarket while hawking Trump paraphernalia from tables outside the store, harrassing those who believed differently (or were too busy to stop and buy things). These are not civil people, not well-behaved, not willing to give equal right to expression to others who believe differently. But Somerby says we need to love them, our unruly and disruptive neighbors?
That isn't going to happen in my neighborhood. They are deplorable people and I am going to avoid them when they cannot behave properly and do destructive, ugly things to others.
Then there is the tragic case of Leo Brent Bozell, son of the National Review/Fox News BS king, who argued for that the "others" were victims of press bias for generations.
DeleteLeo was one of the worst, most violent Jan 6 rioters, who planned his actions in in advance and them lied his butt off when indicted. Obviously brought up in a home where the truth was a joke and no serious reason to love or respect the Country was in suggested. Found guilty on ten counts, he gets sentenced in January. It will be interesting to see if Brett is there to plead for mercy.
He should spend most of the rest of his active years in prison, and we will be picking up the considerable bill for this wicked idiocy.
I'm so confused. Some of you Somerby-haters say we're supposed to love the deplorable Others, some say we're not. Can you guys get together and figure out which way "liberals" are supposed to go on this one?
DeleteAs soon as you show me an example of a Somerby critic saying we should love the others I’ll respond. I’m a center leftist who’s had Republican friends all my life. I draw a rough distinction between the right and far right as all fair people do, as Biden does. Hillary claimed we should not ignore the far right creeps and She turned out to be correct, their hold on the Party is indeed dangerous. I also know there are politically and generally unsophisticated people who are not necessarily mean, but that doesn’t make their Trump vote any less damaging. Bob goes to ludicrous lengths to excuse Trump and his enablers, that’s why we can’t stand him and think he is a two faced jerk.
Delete"we can’t stand [Somerby] and think he is a two faced jerk."
DeleteAnd yet you read him year after year after year, in a valiant effort to protect other gullible liberals from falling for Somerby's many deceits! Thank you for your selfless service!
Somerby built his blog and influence by attacking the media for repeating Republican talking points. So when Somerby shifted to attacking the blue tribe, ie his audience, it is reasonable for them to either leave, or stay and provide criticism.
DeleteMost just left, his influence is gone, his defenders are all right wing fanboys.
Somerby does offer usefulness as a sounding board, daily he trots out his anti blue tribe nonsense, and blue tribers hone their skills at providing criticism and counterpoints.
Dogface, you are not going to chase away the Somerby critics by asking why they are here, over and over and over. Why don't you comment substantively on what Somerby has said, instead of harrassing other commenters?
Delete"his defenders are all right wing fanboys"
DeleteIf you think I'm right wing, then you have serious, serious reading and comprehension difficulties.
If you folks would knock off all your Somerby-hate, maybe we could have some space to talk about what I'd like to talk about, which is how to persuade 1-2% of the Others to vote for Biden. And it seems to me that the lowest-hanging fruit is the economy. (It's the economy, stupid!) Polls show overwhelmingly that the public prefers Trump over Biden on this question, when objectively Biden has performed extraordinarily well and the economy is booming. It seems to me that this is the message!
DeleteBiden has turned the terrible, terrible economy that Trump handed him into a booming, almost inflation-free economy! This has been a tremendous accomplishment!
DeleteWhat can Republicans say to that? Only "It's not Trump's fault that he handed Biden a terrible, terrible economy." That seems pretty lame because it concedes that what Biden has done has been remarkable.
Dog, you are, supposedly, confused by Trump support in part because you are unfamiliar with aspects of human behavior, and proper definitions of “left” and “right”. Yes you are most likely a right winger, it’s not a death knell, you won’t be jailed, you can keep commenting your nonsense.
DeleteThere is no 1-2% to persuade, your own inability to be persuaded should clue you in.
Anon 3:42 - Walter, I love you, but sooner or later, you're going to have to realize the fact that you're a god damn moron.
DeleteYou really shouldn't keep calling criticism of Somerby "Somerby-hate". In academia, for example, when someone points out a mistake or corrects your work, they are doing you a favor. When an academic hates a student or colleague, they show it by ignoring them, doing nothing to help them communicate better or present flawless work. You only help those you wish to do better.
DeleteSeveral of us have explained that it is a better use of resources to address the persuadable and that is not the Others, who will not vote for any Democrats under any circumstances because of a decades long campaign by Fox to demonize Democrats. Look at David, for an example of someone who does not change his mind, even when discussing economic issues and matters of fact not opinion.
Addressing the most entrenched view during polling doesn't strike me as "low hanging fruit" but as banging one's head against the wall. People who are actually concerned about the economy aside from a vague desire to be wealthier already know that the economic indicators show that Biden has been doing a good job. They want to pay less taxes and that is what is making it hard for the US to balance its budget and pay for discretionary spending important to those who are not so wealthy.
Biden is, of course, advertising his economic success, but it hasn't convinced Somerby to support him. Somerby still says he wants a better candidate and calls Biden too old. It may convince independents and wavering Democrats and never-Trumpers, but it isn't going to convince a single Trump enthusiast or MAGA or person who has been a Republican all their lives and they aren't going to change now, not for a commie like Biden.
You are not the first concern troll to come along and infect Somerby's comments. But you are welcome to try converting David and Hector and Cecelia and AC/MA and others here who claim to be liberal but exist to defend Somerby from his critics. I'll bet they won't engage your economic arguments and I'm damned sure none of them are planning to vote for Biden. Because none of them are Other and I've never seen an actual Other change their mind here about anything. But go ahead and give it a try.
"What can Republicans say to that? Only "It's not Trump's fault that he handed Biden a terrible, terrible economy." That seems pretty lame because it concedes that what Biden has done has been remarkable."
DeleteWhat does David or Cecelia say? They change the subject. They say "But Biden is a commie" and "Biden is corrupt and benefitted as head of a crime family so we can't vote for him -- look at Hunter's dick if you don't believe me." Or they say, "I did well under Trump's economy so I'm going to vote for him again." or "Biden is failing to enforce our immigration laws so the flood of illegals is hurting our workers" and so on. These are not people who will listen to the good news about the economy.
3:47 - You must be Prof. Mouse, right?
Delete3:55 - Again, we're only trying to persuade 1-2% of the Others, not all of them.
DeleteProf. Mouse - You tend to be a little pedantic and condescending, which I find annoying, but I think you have a good heart. I wish you would use a nym so I could recognize you (and so I wouldn't have to use the snarky "Prof. Mouse").
DeleteThis dog just barks and barks.
DeleteDogface, we are saying that you will not persuade ANY of them. Not even 1-2%. It is better to work on the Undecideds, who are many more people than 1-2% and willing to listen.
DeleteI can also bite.
Delete4:20 - And that's it - that's are only dispute. We both think we should motivate the base; we both think we should try to persuade Undecideds; we differ ONLY on whether we should try to persuade 1-2% of the Others.
DeleteYour bite is more akin to a mosquito than a dog.
DeleteNo, Dogface, we also differ on what Somerby is doing here when he criticizes liberals and defends right wing micreants. None of that is going to persuade 1-2% of Others to vote for Biden. Somerby suggests that when Democrats act like Democrats, we lose Other votes, but polls show that the more we act like Democrats, the more Democratic voters vote for our candidates. It is better to have more Democrats support us than to think that some mythical Others will magically vote for Biden if we are only nice to them and stop criticizing Trump.
DeleteBut you know it's my bite. You just bite and hide. Like a coward.
DeleteYou are hiding behind the nym Dogface George. And what is your response to what I said? An insult.
Delete4:36 - "we also differ on what Somerby is doing here when he criticizes liberals and defends right wing micreants."
DeleteYes, you're right. You think Somerby is pretending to be a liberal in order to deceive gullible liberal readers to vote for Trump. I think your theory is batshit.
5:12 - When you say I haven't responded to "what you said" - I have no idea what that is, because you don't have a nym. I'm being nibbled at by a mischief of mice; I can't respond to everything.
DeleteYou don't have to respond to anything. Especially when you don't seem to have much to say about the actual posts at this blog.
DeleteHere is the insult you spat: "You just bite and hide. Like a coward."
No one who writes a comment is hiding from you. Just write your response, or don't. Calling people cowards is name-calling and not discussion. It doesn't matter who you think you are responding to.
Several of us quote other people's comments so that readers can follow what we are responding to. You could try that yourself. But mostly you seem to be focused on people and not on ideas. If you pay more attention to the content of people's comments and less to picking fights with people based on their nyms, you might find discussion more productive.
I'm thinking of changing my nym to Pied Piper. I blow my pipe and all the mice come chasing and bounding after me.
DeleteHow is this a substantive comment on anything Somerby said today?
Delete5:31 - Review the bidding. I leveled that insult only in response to two insults that were hurled at me.
DeleteAnd as far as "coward" goes, I'm just telling you how I feel: If you won't use a nym, and you hit, run, and hide, I think you're a coward.
That's my opinion.
Anonymouse 3:55pm, I’m not changing the subject, but I have eaten large amounts of Sweet Tarts, little Tootsie Rolls, and Laffy Taffy in the past two days.
Deleteanon 3:47, defending TDH against the incredibly stupid attacks on him does not make one a right winger. I've been voting for a long time, and have always voted for the democratic presidential candidate. If Biden is nominated again, which seems likely, I'm sure I'll vote for him. Certainly not for Trump. I don't necessarily agree with Dogface on how to get more people to vote for dems. Frankly, I don't know, and wouldn't qualify as a political consultant. There is more than one side to it. Rather than converting 1-2% of Trump voters to switch, it also would make sense to encourage more democrats to vote. Dems could let up on the wokeness. things aren't black & white, there's often 2 or more sides to the story - that's what TDH generally points out, but his attackers seem unable to fathom.
DeleteIf Bob was pretending to be a liberal, he wouldn't repeat the Right-wing grievance of the day on his blog.
DeleteAC/MA,
DeleteWhat does "let up on the wokeness" mean?
I've already asked Right-wingers to define what "woke" is. From what i can tell, it's anything that makes them feel the least bit uncomfortable. How does a non-Right-winger like you define it?
anon 8:49, I tend to think you are being disingenuous. You know what 'woke' means. It6 certainly isn't a precise term. It's stretching logic to make so many things to be about 'race'; it's claiming that one's gender is different from one's biological sex; it's asserting that the US is a white supremacist country. the list could go on.
DeleteI get you, AC/MA. The Dems have lost the plot. They even called the people who photoshopped a photo of Barack Obama with a bone through his nose "racists".
DeleteWhat kind of fool could possibly believe a country where white Kyle Rittenhouse gets a trial after shooting protesters, but black George Floyd gets choked to death for alleging passing a counterfeit 20 dollar bill, could possibly be a white supremacist country?
DeleteAC/ MA,
DeleteThere is no way you can call the USA a white supremacist country, after they happily provided reparations to black people for providing slave labor to build it's economic base.
@12:12 You correctly ask, Is this an isolated incident? ou say it isn't. In support you mention 3 or 4 other incidents. But, there are probably around 60 million Trump supporters. You have no way of knowing other than the few you saw.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Hillary alleged a different kind of deplorable. She said half the Trump supporters were bigots -- racists and homophobes. You saw some very bad behavior,, but you didn't see any instances of bigotry.
Hillary did not say all right wingers were deplorables and Biden did not say all Republicans were MAGAs. And yes, there is plenty of bigotry on the right -- that is mostly found in the news and in the comments sections of right wing blogs. Some of it is truly horrible and some of it is mostly ignorant, but there is plenty of racism out there.
DeleteWe do not have to argue how many among the right are horrible. Trump is horrible and someone who supports Trump is not doing our country any favors. That alone is reason to oppose them. But Somerby's contention that the left hates those it opposes politically is ridiculous. That's why I was trying to show that Hillary, despite her statement about political deplorables, is not a hater. She has more reason to be one, given her treatment by the right and the Bernie left, but she remains a good decent person, which is way more than Somerby ever gives her credit for.
I've heard people say racist things in my daily life, about Obama and against gays. I've had to tell friends to take me off their email joke list. I don't know anyone committing hate crimes because of bigotry, personally, but they clearly exist in sufficient numbers to frighten those who are members of minority groups, even in blue states.
DeleteThis is the old Republican trick of portraying a Democrat strength (caring for others) as a weakness (lack of caring for Others). Somerby is participating in swiftboating Hillary even though she is not running for office.
ReplyDelete"
ReplyDeleteCLINTONS AND OTHERS: The poisonous hatred is already here!"
It is outrageous that Somerby would refer to the Clintons using the words "poisonous hatred" when that has more often been directed against them than anyone since FDR and they have done so much good in the world.
This alone shows that Somerby is no liberal, and not even a decent person.
Kristof was over his right wing neoliberal skis when he tried to run for governor of Oregon, where he owned a vineyard.
ReplyDeleteOregon was not having it, since Kristof did not qualify as a resident of the state.
Kristof fought back, claiming he was the same as the many migrant farm workers in the state - oof, that did not go over well, the state refused to allow him to run, but he did keep the $3 million he had raised for the effort.
Brooks, Kristof, Somerby, Drum - these are all a dying breed of neoliberal right wingers; good riddance, as they have caused damage to our society, endorsing the views and policies that have led the wealthiest nation in history to also have the greatest wealth inequality.
The Clintons are not fighting over Gaza/Israel -- no poisonous hatred there. I appreciate the major role Hillary Clinton played in resolving the Troubles in Ireland.
ReplyDeleteGoogle paid for all online work from home from $ 16,000 to $ 32,000 a month. The younger brother was out of work for three months and a month ago her check was $ 32475, working at home for 4 hours a day, and earning could be even bigger….
ReplyDeleteSo I started__________> > Www.Smartcareer1.com
"But you are welcome to try converting David and Hector and Cecelia and AC/MA and others here who claim to be liberal but exist to defend Somerby from his critics."
DeleteI think this is a good challenge. Hector and AC/MA, to my reading, are liberals, so I doubt they need to be persuaded (and I apologize, Hector and AC/MA, if I'm wrong). But David and Cecelia are decidedly not liberals.
I, personally, respect both of them a lot. They tell us what they think and they stand by what they say.
So - David and CC - Can we agree that what Biden has done on the economy has been spectacular?
1. We can agree, right?, that Biden was handed a horrible economy when he was sworn in.
2. And we can agree that the worry at the time was two-fold; too small a stimulus would lead to a prolonged recession; too large would lead to escalating inflation.
3. But Biden's thinking at the time was that these risks were asymmetric because escalating inflation could be controlled by Fed interest rate increases.
4. So Biden wanted to go big on fiscal stimulus, and he had the political skill to persuade Congress to go along, even though Dems had only a 51-50 edge in the Senate, with two Dems (Manchin, Sinema) who were not really on board with his agenda.
5. And sure enough, the economy pulled out of the recession quickly, but at the cost of inflation spiking close to 9%.
6. And, as predicted, the Fed raised rates, which has made inflation plunge to 3.7%
7. So now, by any measure you wish to pick (3Q GDP 4.9%, inflation rate 3.7%, unemployment rate 3.8%), the economy is booming.
So, David and CC: Wouldn't you agree that Biden deserves a lot of credit for pulling us out of a nasty recession and creating this booming economy?
That's me - I forgot to put in my nym.
DeleteHahaha. That's a good one, Dog. DinC is nothing if not a two-faced hypocrite. Lowest black employment ever and not a peep out of DinC. When Trump was president, he would be singing his praises if the sun rose in the east.
Delete"Wouldn't you agree that Biden deserves a lot of credit for pulling us out of a nasty recession and creating this booming economy?"
Delete1. We have never been in a recession during President Biden's term.
2. The economy may be booming if you're a Ukrainian arms dealer. And it's better than Jamaica's economy. But GDP does't tell the whole story. It doesn't mean anything really. What does it mean when Americans are all in debt, depressed, addicted to drugs, and unhappy as hell?
Anonymouse 7:14pm/Dogface George, I think Biden could have done worse on the economy and probably will before his term is over. I don’t think Biden is truly is charge. I think he has a team that directs him. I do consider him fully to be my president, because he is that,
DeleteI don’t have to be rah-rah about him, I do have to be aware that others voted for him and support his positions. I do have to be reasonable in my approach to those people-neighbors, friends, acquaintances.
It was a nice try there, DG. Almost subtle.
In other words, as far as I'm concerned Biden can go to fucking hell.
DeleteAnonymouse 8:26pm, no, I don’t want Pres. Biden going to hell. That wouldn’t be good for us or for the world, jackass.
DeleteBiden got us in a war with Ukraine (where his son does millions of dollars of "business") which has cost us hundreds of billion dollars and is stuck in a stalemate with no hope of winning.
DeleteYeah!! Biden is so great!!!!!!
There is no evidence Hunter Biden did any business in Ukraine after leaving Burisma in 2019 (Joe Biden was a private citizen then).
DeleteCC - I think there’s two relevant dimensions of political thinking - ideological (left-right) and open-mindedness. Although you and I are close to polar opposites ideologically, I’ve always liked you because I thought you were open-minded. (And you frequently make me laugh.)
DeleteAnd you came through. Grudgingly, you admit Biden has done well on the economy so far. That’s a start. If the economy remains strong for the next year, I bet on Election Day the strength of the economy will factor into your decision.
8:32 - Actually, Biden did not get us into war in Ukraine. Instead, he rallied our allies into helping us back Ukrainians while the Ukrainians decimate Russia’s war-making capabilities.
DeleteBut Biden did was get us out of a war - the Afghan War - that Trump was too chicken-shit to get us out of, even though he wanted to. As a result, we won’t be in that quagmire, losing blood and money, for 20 more years.
DG, I’m not going to disappoint you and the anonymices by agreeing with that last bit.
DeleteBiden is no longer firing on all cylinders and I’m a conservative. I will not vote for him.
However, I would vote for Kevin Drum, Bob Somerby, or Nicholas Kristof.
So Biden got us out of a quagmire while Russia is slowly sinking into another quagmire.
DeleteDavid Brooks still has a lot of work to do.
DeleteTake note, DG, conservatives don’t vote for Biden. Cecelia says it so it must be true.
DeleteAnonymouse 9:38pm, but people will vote for opposite party pols in lesser races due to the overall tenor, tone, and approach from an opposite party president.
DeleteKevin Drum, Bob Somerby, and Nicholas Kristof are utterly unqualified for the presidency.
DeleteAnonymouse 10:04pm, that panty/crack thing is something you need to address.
DeleteCecelia, you’ve never explained exactly what you mean by “crack”. To me, it’s the cleft of the vulva. To many other people, it’s the fissure between the buttocks.
Delete"There is no evidence Hunter Biden did any business in Ukraine after leaving Burisma in 2019 (Joe Biden was a private citizen then)."
DeleteHunter Biden didn't any business in Ukraine after leaving Burisma in 2019 **because** his Daddy had **just become** a private citizen.
Here are the origins of the boondoggle:
"On April 16, 2014, Vice President Biden met with his son’s business partner, Devon
Archer, at the White House. Five days later, Vice President Biden visited Ukraine, and he soon after was described in the press as the “public face of the administration’s handling of Ukraine.” The day after his visit, on April 22, Archer joined the board of Burisma. Six days later, on April 28, British officials seized $23 million from the London bank accounts of Burisma’s owner, Mykola Zlochevsky. Fourteen days later, on May 12, Hunter Biden joined the board of Burisma, and over the course of the next several years, Hunter Biden and Devon Archer were paid millions of dollars from a corrupt Ukrainian oligarch for their participation on the board."
Not that there's anything wrong with it. We just can't lecture our political opponents about corruption. (Without sound like stupid assholes.)
Republican voters aren't turned-on by Trump's sexual predation. They are turned-on by his bigotry.
DeleteI'm not voting for Hunter Biden for President, unless he cleans-up his drug-addiction. We just had a President (2017-2021) who was addicted to Adderall, and it didn't work out well.
DeleteBiden became a private citizen in 2016, NOT 2019.
Delete2017. January 20.
DeletePlease remove this spam.
ReplyDeleteI’m astounded that for a brief time, maybe a month or two, when I was 7, I actually thought I enjoyed Spam.
ReplyDeleteI even made my mom pack Spam sandwiches in my lunch bag for school.
Fortunately, my developing taste buds brought me to my senses and I have never touched Spam since.
I still like Spam, once in a while.
ReplyDeleteBiden has done very well with the economy. Republicans deny this because they are liars.
ReplyDeleteDogface certainly spent a lot of time making this thread about Dogface. Well, easier than trying to defend Bob’s BS in any substantive way, which he has never been able to do.
ReplyDelete"Dogface certainly spent a lot of time making this thread about Dogface."
DeleteIt's called trolling.
@dogface
ReplyDeleteSo dogface has succeeded in proving his contention that Cecelia isn’t an ideologue by … getting Cecelia to admit she is a conservative, and will not vote for a Democrat. Congratulations, dogface. Oh, she likes to read Somerby’s attacks on liberals, and frequently joins in with great malice.
Meanwhile, Somerby proves he isn’t an ideologue by … bashing liberals, attacking Biden, but then, in the end, claiming he only votes for Democrats.
Meanwhile, the commenters critical of him also only vote for Democrats, but we are ideologues because we push back against Somerby.
Makes sense. Or not.
What are you trying to say? What are you afraid of?
Delete