WEDNESDAY, MARCH 27, 2024
Musings from the gurney: Does it matter? Does it matter how we characterize a misstatement?
Does it matter if we call the misstatement a "lie" as opposed to (let's say) a simple "falsehood?" What the heck is in a word? Does it matter which word we use?
Yesterday afternoon, we returned to that favorite topic. This morning, propped up on a semi-gurney, we thought about the various ways a statement or claim can be (said to be) less than accurate.
As we did, we thought about a somewhat similar passage from the later Wittgenstein—from Philosophical Investigations. We couldn't quite think what the passage was.
After returning home, we were finally able to find it! The passage starts—merely starts—like this:
66. Consider for example the proceedings that we call "games." I mean board-games, card-games, ball-games, Olympic games, and so on. What is common to them all?—Don't say: "There must be something common, or they would not be called 'games' "—but look and see whether there is anything common to all.—For if you look at them you will not see something that is common to all, but similarities, relationships, and a whole series of them at that.
To repeat: don't think, but look!—Look for example at board-games, with their multifarious relationships. Now pass to card-games; here you find many correspondences with the first group, but many common features drop out, and others appear. When we pass next to ball games, much that is common is retained, but much is lost...
That's just the start of the passage we fuzzily had in mind.
Within the context of Wittgenstein's largely puzzling book, what's the point of all that convoluted claptrap? For today, let's skip that question!
That said, it matters whether you call a misstatement a "lie," as opposed to simply saying that the statement or claim isn't accurate.
We're always amazed when people on the highest levels of American discourse seem to be unaware of that fairly obvious fact. It makes a giant difference as a nation's discourse unfolds—though at times of war, the tribal warrior will always default to the preferred martial term, "lie."
Speaking of times of war, the ten-year siege of sacred Troy has turned against the invading Achaeans at the start of Book Nine in The Iliad. Responding to death on the battlefield, Agamemnon, lord of men, suffers a breakdown that rivals any 2 in the morning, all-caps tweet delivered by Donald J. Trump.
Agamemnon gathers the troops. Streaming tears like a dark spring, he suffers a major meltdown:
Lord marshal Agamemnon rose up in their midst,
streaming tears like a dark spring running down
some desolate rock face, its shaded currents flowing.
So, with a deep groan, the king addressed his armies:
"Friends, lords of the Argives, all my captains.
Cronus' son has entangled me in madness, blinding ruin-
Zeus is a harsh, cruel god. He vowed to me long ago,
he bowed his head that I should never embark for home
till I had brought the walls of Ilium crashing down.
But now, I see, he only plotted brutal treachery:
now he commands me back to Argos in disgrace,
whole regiments of my men destroyed in battle.
[..]
So come, follow my orders. Obey me, all you Argives.
Cut and run! Sail home to the fatherland we love!
We'll never take the broad streets of Troy."
Tears streaming down his face, Agamemnon has told the troops that they should abandon their siege of Troy. The headstrong young Diomedes rises and says that he and other young warriors of his ilk are determined to stay and fight.
The ranks of the Achaeans are coming undone. At this point, Nestor the seasoned charioteer scrambles to his feet and offers his usual good sound advice.
He rebukes Agamemnon and Diomedes both. In the process, he authors one of the greatest short scenes we know of in all of literature:
And all the Achaeans shouted their assent,
stirred by the stallion-breaking Diomedes' challenge.
But Nestor the old driver rose and spoke at once:
"Few can match your power in battle, Diomedes,
and in council you excel all men your age.
So no one could make light of your proposals,
not the whole army—who could contradict you?
But you don't press on and reach a useful end.
How young you are—why, you could be my son,
my youngest-born at that, though you urge our kings
with cool clear sense: what you've said is right.
But it's my turn now, Diomedes,
I think I can claim to have some years on you.
So I must speak up and drive the matter home.
And no one will heap contempt on what I say,
not even mighty Agamemnon. Lost to the clan,
lost to the hearth, lost to the old ways, that one
who lusts for all the horrors of war with his own people.
[...]
Atrides. lead the way—you are the greatest king;
spread out a feast for all your senior chiefs.
That is your duty, a service that becomes you...
Nestor has scolded Agamemnon (Atrides) before. In this scene, he rebukes him again, then orders further action.
In this scene, we're seeing the time-honored practice of disputation within the clan. We're even seeing such disputation directed at Agamemnon, lord of men.
Eventually, Nestor offers the strongest advice:
Lost to the clan, lost to the hearth, lost to the old ways. that one who lusts for all the horrors of war with his own people.
Corporate bosses of modern-day "cable news," Red and Blue cable news alike, are schooling us Americans in "the horrors of war with our own people."
At this point, we rarely see disputation even within the clan on such propaganda / entertainment / tribal reassurance programs. No one ever challenges the hosts of these scripted "cable news" programs. By law, the scripted response to every comment must start off like this:
"That's exactly right."
Before the week is done, we hope to mention what we saw when we watched Bill Maher's HBO show last weekend. For today, we'll riddle you this:
Especially at time of war, it's exciting to accuse The Others of lies. That said, such name-calling tends to be dumb on the merits, and it almost surely isn't a way to press on to a useful end.
What was Wittgenstein talking about? We'll leave that for another day. For today, we'll tell you this:
We saw a smarter set of conversations, watching last Friday's Real Time program, than we think we've ever seen on an actual "cable news" program.
Red America's cable news channel has largely been handed to flyweights and chimps. Pseudo-discussions are made to take place—imitations of life.
That's how it is on Red America's "cable news" channel. Its pundits still get to be right on a regular basis, so inexplicable is a great deal of current White House behavior.
That's how it is on red tribe cable. Is Blue America's cable channel really that much smarter?
Martin Greenfield, Vernor Vinge, and Imogen Stuart have died.
ReplyDeleteFarewell to them.
DeleteWill Bob comment on the hiring, then immediate firing of ex-head of the Republican National Committee, Ronna McDaniel by MSNBC?
ReplyDeleteHe has often blamed journalists for not calling out their colleagues, but now that they have done so, crickets from Somerby.
DeleteI think if you expect Somerby to comment on every current issue that's pertinent it's a bit silly.
DeleteI mean look at the guy, he is evidently watching Fox and reading the Iliad. I assume he still checks the Times and WaPo but who knows? Maybe that chews into his nap time.
But Rationalist, Somerby has been calling for journalism to police itself for decades. This is dear to his heart.
DeleteHe had to run out to Costco for a 30 pound bag of Spin. He'll get to it.
DeleteHow middle class and whiny can you be to assume that just hiring and firing media figures is how to measure journalistic accuracy?
DeleteDemonstrate something being said truthfully or not.
Just to catch you up, @3:25, McDaniels was fired because other journalists did not want to work alongside an election denier. She was thus a huge liar for a long time, which made her unfit for journalism.
DeleteGentlemen, allow Bob to do what he does. You don’t have a blog. You only have Digby.
DeleteNo one is stopping Somerby from doing what he does.
DeleteYes, the point of calling a statement a lie instead of misinformation is to warn the audience to exercise greater zskepticism, distrust, suspicion of the motives of the liar. Such warnings are important to individual self-protection.
ReplyDeleteWith a proven liar such as Trump, should we err on the side of caution and use the word lie or give Trump the benefit of the doubt ( which he has not earned) by calling his lies misinformation?
Such a political answer. Yes, we should distrust people with a track record of being dishonest.
DeleteNo, we should not call something a lie if it may be a statement made in ignorance or they mispoke etc. which Somerby has given the name "a falsehood." Not misinformation. That's a whole 'nother can of worms.
But the reason for not misjudging the statement is to evaluate the trustworthiness of the speaker. And you evaluate misinformation by comparing notes with trusted experts, not with blind faith. No one talks about whether Trump is a liar any more because the question has been settled.
DeleteWhen we say that supporters don’t care whether Trump lies or not, that is literally true. This is only an issue for Somerby, an excuse to chide the press.
I think we should call things what they are and I don't think it's in anyone's best interests to let politics redefine language itself.
DeleteI don't know how Somerby's mind works. I think most people have an understanding that Trump doesn't really lie so much as spout a continuous stream of B.S. without any consideration for which parts are true. Worse than lying in my opinion.
If you cast everything Somerby writes as for or against a party or individual you're going to end up all over the place.
He's an old fogey that yearns for accurate non-partisan journalism.
I don’t think that calling a stream of lies “BS” is “calling things what they are.”
DeleteJournalists have a duty to be as accurate as they can be. Where there can be competing interpretations of a speaker's motivation or intent, a journalist is duty-bound NOT to guess.
DeleteSo I can go along with the argument that journalists should use the word "lie" very sparingly. What does "lie" mean? It's a deliberate and knowing statement that isn't true. If Trump declares that he's "done more for Israel than any other president," can anyone claim that's a lie?
On the other hand, we have heard testimony from several people who worked in the White House up to and including Trump's own attorney general that Trump was told directly that the 2020 election was not "rigged and stolen," that there was no widespread voter fraud, that there was no early-morning vote dump, and that there just isn't any evidence that he won. There is bountiful evidence that the election was on the square.
So when Trump declares for the one millionth time that the election was stolen, HE. IS. LYING.
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DeleteB.S. isn't a stream of lies. It's relationship with the truth is coincidental. I mean in my book B.S. is much much worse than lying. But that's just me.
DeleteThe election one, yeah that's the "Big Lie." But again, he was just bullshitting and probably hoping there was some questionable activity they would eventually uncover. So again, bullshit not lies really.
I understand "Lie!" resonates stronger. But B.S. is being fake all the time and having no interest in veracity or falsity whatsover.
I’d still say that a person who engages in BS, saying things that he has been told are not true, still deserves to be called a liar. Not caring about the truth doesn’t preclude knowing the truth but stating the opposite.
DeleteThe concept of bullshitting sounds like an excuse for not calling someone a liar when that is plainly what they are. There are no special "truth" rules just for Trump, allowing him to blabber whatever self-serving nonsense suits his interests. He is telling lies and not only does that resonate stronger but it is a more accurate description of what he does. Just because Trump may have no interest in conforming to truth, just as he has no interest in paying his contractors, or in stopping when a woman says "no!". There are not special rules for Trump and he must be judged by the same rules that the rest of us must follow, all of them.
DeleteAnd Trump’s BS instills the idea in his followers that any election he doesn’t win is illegitimate. Other republicans, like Kari Lake, extend this to themselves and their elections. It’s damaging and it’s deliberate, in my opinion. The idea they are trying to normalize is “Democrats cannot and should not win and should not be allowed to govern.”
DeleteHillary Clinton and many major Democrats refused to acknowledge Donald Trump as a legitimate president. Including Clinton who said this in 2019" “He knows he’s an illegitimate president, ... I believe he understands that the many varying tactics they used, from voter suppression and voter purging to hacking to the false stories — he knows that — there were just a bunch of different reasons why the election turned out like it did.”
DeleteThe Senate Intelligence Committee’s investigation of Russian interference concluded, there was no “evidence that vote tallies were manipulated.” Voter purging has not been conclusively linked to Russian interference efforts based on public evidence and reports and the Department of Homeland Security stated there was no evidence that voter rolls were modified or that voting tallies were changed by Russia.
How do you pathetically stupid DNC robots spin that? Was it a lie?
Serial liar Hillary Clinton, one of the most unqualified and unpopular people to ever run for president, told these lies 7 months after the Mueller Report said "The IRA later used social media accounts and interest groups to sow discord in the U.S. political system ... the investigation did not identify evidence that any U.S. persons conspired or coordinated with the IRA.
DeleteSo come on assholes. How do you spin it? What's the bullshit party line for this one? Or are you just going to go straight to ad hominem?
Trump is illegitimate because Putin gave him the presidency in exchange for perverting our foreign policy. Hillary was right. Look at the Mueller Report and Comey’s malfeasance.
DeleteAwww. You can do better than that, dumbshit asshole!! Look at the Mueller Report that said "the investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities." on THE FIRST PAGE???
DeleteWhat's the real spin? Did Hillary lie?
Give me the straight uncut bullshit direct from the DNC. How do you spin Clinton (and many others) calling Trump illegitimate?
DeleteIs there special "truth" rules just for her, allowing her to blabber whatever self-serving nonsense suits her interests?
What the fuck dumbshits?
Quaker, give us one of your fucking thought experiments you dumb fucking Arkansas hick.
DeleteHillary Clinton called and conceded the election that night. She participated in the peaceful transfer of power and stood on the podium the night he was sworn in. So go jump in the lake, liar.
DeleteSomerby’s quote of Wittgenstein’s well-known discussion of the difficulties of defining category membership of certain categories such as games has been resolved by saying that some categories are defined by extension (listing examples) not by specifying rules. Prototype theory suggests that category membership may be determined by resemblance to specific exemplars instead. I doubt Somerby is familiar with that, even though the work is 70+ years old, because it wouldn’t be in his Harvard texts. It is now taught as “mental representation,” an aspect of memory, and is very familiar to computer scientists and cognitive scientists working in machine learning AI.
ReplyDeleteI see no reason why Somery threw that into his essay, no relevance to lying, just as the Greek stuff seems to be inserted only to tell us that our current divisions are warlike. Personally, I do not own a spear or helmet (or concubine).
The difference between a lie and an false statement, like the difference between the true and the false, simply does not matter when we are considering Somerby and Trump. There is noting too ugly or absurd for Trump to state that Bob will not do his best to defend.
ReplyDeleteFox has called Dem Presidents liars all the time, and it never bothers Bob.
Not just Trump. We went through all this back in the GWB years as well. Also, with candidate Kerry. Also with Hillary Clinton.
DeleteSome false statements get more publicity than others. E.g. how many saw reports that President Biden incorrectly said that he had gone over the Key Bridge in a train? We know it’s not true because no train ever went over that bridge.
ReplyDeleteBiden actually referred to commuting by train or car. He dodn’t say he crossed the bridge by train. Many commutes involve both train and car. Of course, the Republicans have chosen the least charitable interpretation, one that is misleading if Biden never intended his off-hand remark to say a train crossed the bridge. Does anyone doubt he has crossed the bridge multiple times? That’s the gist of his statement.
DeleteIs Biden’s statement like Trump making up words (misinformate) and calling the president “Buden”. That is a typo, obviously, but the oddness is that it wasn’t fixed. When does a lie become dementia? We don’t only evaluate speech for truth value.
DeleteBiden’s exact statement
Delete“At about 1:30 [a.m. Tuesday], a container ship struck the Francis Scott Key Bridge, which I’ve been over many, many times commuting from the state of Delaware either on a train or by car," the president said.”
Does that preclude coming from Delaware by train then switching to car to get from the train to the final destination?
DeleteI don’t know, but Trump keeps saying he won the 2020 election and was cheated out of his victory. Seems a tad more important that Biden making an offhand comment about the bridge. You might ask yourself what is Trump’s intent in his assertions vs Biden’s. Biden isn’t trying to reshape reality to suit himself.
DeleteI looked it up, and someone would drive across the bridge by taking a more coastal route that avoids toll roads and is more scenic. The train is more inland. Someone would only go by train and then car if they arrived in Baltimore (Penn Station), had an appointment north of the city, then wanted to take a car to BWI (airport).
DeleteBut isn't the larger issue that Biden was trying to say something comforting to the people of Baltimore and establish a personal connection with the, but the Republicans decided to make that kind gesture into a "gotcha" moment to perhaps suggest that Biden is too old to remember whether he took a train or car on a specific occasion (do you always remember such things?). It seems churlish of Republicans to ignore the context and attack Biden in a moment when we should all be commiserating with people after a disaster. Why are Republicans like that?
There goes David, grasping at straws and spreading BS. What a dumpster fire of a human being.
DeleteThe media should give every public figure a "Three misstatements then you're out rule" like baseball. You can mess up three times, then if you say something untrue a fourth time, the chyron on the bottom of the screen will scroll through every distortion and lie you have said during your appearances and mentions. Democrat, Republican, Green Party, doesn't matter which, just hold public figures accountable.
ReplyDeleteThe journalist umpire system will require poitical figures to think twice before lobbbing endless grenades into the public discourse any time they don't like the conversation happening and need a distraction, and everyone can make a clear distinction between someone messing up on remembering stuff, and someone who is intentionally manipulating public trust.
Trump was allowed over 5000 lies in his first term.
DeleteThought experiment:
ReplyDeleteI invite Howler commenters to my palatial estate for a barbecue. I tell everyone there will be plenty of ribs for all. However, when everyone arrives, there's no food in sight.
Someone says, "Hey, you said there'd be food. I don't see any. Did you lie?"
I reply, stand by. I think a thunderstorm is blowing in. It's possible that pigs will fly into the storm and be struck by lightning. When that happens, the barbecued ribs will start falling from the sky!"
Was I lying?
Needs context. What if you are insane and believe pigs fly?
DeleteMainly kidding. Yes.
Bats fly. Why shouldn’t pigs?
DeleteEvaluating truth serves a practical purpose that Somerby entirely neglects.
ReplyDelete