THURSDAY, APRIL 11, 2024
Distinguishes falsehoods from lies: At times of partisan conflict, we humans often like to accuse our opponents of lying.
Sometimes people do lie, of course. It's just isn't especially easy to know that they actually have.
Our own work was widely cited in Al Franken's 2003 book, Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them. In fairness, Al—he was still a comedian then—was occasionally working a bit tongue in cheek. In part, he was writing a "satirical book," one with an eye-catching title.
How can you know if a public figure has lied? How do you know that a misstatement of some kind isn't a simple mistake, even perhaps a delusion?
There's no perfect answer to such questions. But saying the others are lying has become a standard way to proceed for pundits from Red America, and from Blue America too.
Directed at Donald J. Trump's endless claims, it strikes us as a lazy way to go. Also, as an approach which hasn't necessarily been gigantically helpful.
At any rate, Laura Ingraham started that way last night, one minute into her 7 o'clock prime time show on the Fox News Channel.
Her initial focus was on the southern border. As 7:01 turned to 7:02, this is what she said:
INGRAHAM (4/10/24): From the beginning, whenever the Biden folks were pressed about the border, they started lying. And, of course, blame-shifting.
Now first, you'll remember, it wasn't a crisis at all, said our border Caesarina. Thank you, Kamala.
It's the easiest thing in the world to do!
The paraphrased claim that the border "wasn't a crisis at all" seemed to be the main example of "lying" to which Ingraham referred. A few minutes later, our analysts came right out of their chairs when Ingraham discussed a new approach to reducing asylum claims Biden seems to be considering.
You can read about that possible new approach in this brisk report at Axios. Last evening, Ingraham showed Biden answering a question in an interview with Univision. Then she offered this:
INGRAHAM: At this point, I'm not even sure that he knows that he's lying. But that was a lie.
If a person "doesn't know" he's lying, can he really be said to be lying? If you think the statement you're making is accurate, can it be scored as a lie?
Traditionally, the answer has strongly tended to be no, and it's been that way for obvious reasons. Traditionally, distinctions have been observed, all over the world, between two groups of misstatements:
1) A simple misstatement, made in good faith, by a person who believes that his statement is true.
2) That less attractive type of misstatement—the kind of misstatement made by a person who knows that his statement is false.
Within mainstream American journalism, this distinction has largely been washed away in the past thirty years, first by the virulent verbal bombast of the Gingrich Revolution, then again as journalists of the center left began to challenge claims made by the George W. Bush administration.
Today, though, everyone is said to be lying all the time! If you watch the Fox News Channel, the Democrats are constantly lying. If you watch MSNBC, the lies are coming thick and fast from the people Over There.
As we noted this morning, this accusation tends to shut down discussion and debate. In our view, this has been a generally unhelpful way our own blue elites have chosen to go, but we've come to see that it's really the best the vast bulk of this cadre can manage.
There is no point in trying to argue for other approaches to misstatement and / or apparent misstatement. Blue America is wed to our current approach, in which we talk to ourselves about locking Trump up and castigate everyone who tries to speak to Red America's many millions of others.
We'll only say, once again, that this strikes us as a lazy and unproductive way to proceed. For example, was the 2020 election really stolen? Trump keeps saying that it was. Here are two ways Blue America can package this for the gentleman's voters:
1) Donald J. Trump is lying to you.
2) Donald J. Trump has never presented a white paper in support of this repeated claim. He's had three years to document his various claims. Why do you he's made no attempt to do so?
As for us, we don't know what Trump may believe. We don't know if he believes anything.
We regard Trump as (presumptively) mentally ill. We have no idea what he thinks, and the journalists we're told we should trust have all agreed that medical specialists must never be consulted about his apparently disordered mental state.
That cuts off the route to a fuller discussion. It leaves us in thrall to the same people who spent many years, decades ago, insisting to everyone who would listen that Candidate Gore was the world's biggest liar, just like his boss, President Clinton.
That was the best those people could do. Here's a basic fact about our world:
They didn't bring a lot to the table, and neither do their descendants.
This morning, we linked again to the new essay in the Washington Post which conflates falsehoods, untruths and false claims with a flashier entity—lies. We thought we'd link you to another recent essay in which the New York Times took a different approach.
The analysis appeared beneath a double headline. Dual headline included, this is the way it starts:
The Method Behind Trump’s Mistruths
A close examination of every public word from the former president during a crucial week of his campaign.
Since the beginning of his political career, Donald J. Trump has misled, mischaracterized, dissembled, exaggerated and, at times, flatly lied. His flawed statements about the border, the economy, the coronavirus pandemic and the 2020 election have formed the bedrock of his 2024 campaign.
Though his penchant for bending the truth, sometimes to the breaking point, has been well documented, a close study of how he does so reveals a kind of technique to his dishonesty: a set of recurring rhetorical moves with which Mr. Trump fuels his popularity among his supporters.
In the week starting with Mr. Trump’s victory speech in Iowa through his win in the New Hampshire primary—the contests that put him on the path to becoming his party’s nominee for the third consecutive time—The New York Times analyzed all of his public statements, including speeches, interviews and social media posts.
His words focused heavily on attacking his political rivals, self-aggrandizing and stoking fear to make his case for 2024. In doing so, Mr. Trump often relied on repeated falsehoods and half-truths. He has yet to deviate from this approach in the general election.
Here’s a look at how he does it.
At that point, the Times starts to list Trump's alleged techniques and approaches. Please note:
In the material we have posted, the Times only claims that Trump has "flatly lied" at times.
Is a "repeated falsehood" always a lie? The Times makes no such assertion. In our own view, some such falsehood may represent the delusional belief of someone who's (severely) mentally ill, assuming anyone really believes in such constructs.
By the way, how does the Times know that Trump has ever "flatly lied?" They never attempt to nail that down, nor is it likely that they will ever try to do so. The question involved is too complex. It pretty much can't be answered.
According to the New York Times, Donald J. Trump has emitted "mistruths" and also "flawed statements." He has relied on "falsehoods," but also on "half-truths."
But is a falsehood just a lie? The New York Times doesn't say that. Nor will there ever be an easy way to know when some public official has "lied"—and at a time of partisan conflict, there is no imaginable way to get people to form a consensus concerning such matters, one partisan group with some other.
It all becomes a loud, angry Babel. Under current arrangements, that's good for ratings, profits and salaries, and very bad for you.
Donald J. Trump has never made a serious attempt to document his most striking claims. To our neighbors and friends, we would be inclined to say this:
Why do you think that is?
Along the way, we'd quickly acknowledge that our own side has sometimes been horrible too. After that, we'd remind our friends and neighbors of this:
You have an unending citizen's duty, just as we blue voters do.
Just wait till you see Trump's awesome plan to repeal the ACA and replace it with a much better plan.
ReplyDeleteA better book than Al Franken's is: Telling Lies by Paul Ekman. He reviews the contexts in which people lie and how contextual info can be used to disambiguate lies from other kinds of false statements. He also reviews the social importance of being able to identify liars, the need for trust in human relationships, and why we do and should care about liars and the lies they tell. That info is way more important than Franken's jokes and Somerby's excuses for Trump's obvious and ongoing social misbehavior.
ReplyDeleteSomerby seems to care a lot about Trump's knowledge and not much at all about the disinformation we have lately been forced to breathe through our pores. Destruction of our democracy can be accomplished through such lies, not just by storming the capitol building.
ReplyDeleteFor example, Somerby says:
"That said, we'll be voting for President Biden and his strange behavior concerning various major issues, assuming things ever get that far, which they may never do."
Somerby likely wouldn't consider President Biden's behavior "strange" if it hadn't been for the right wing lies told in a non-stop stream by untrustworthy sources. Somerby would know the reality of Biden's term and feel confidence in his choice of Biden for reelection, if it weren't for lies and the lying liars that Franken and Somerby consider so hilarious.
How can one bitch about Franken's humor? This is about my favorite: 'I like Ted Cruz more than most of my other colleagues like Ted Cruz. And I hate Ted Cruz.'
DeleteLol.
DeleteSome people think the laptop was planted by Russia and all the info from it is tainted, other people think it's real. Other people think something in the middle.
DeleteOdd that a former teacher of elementary school children would be so conflicted about the importance of truth-telling.
ReplyDeleteHarry Reid explained politicians' lying in five words:
ReplyDeleteDuring the 2012 presidential campaign, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid made an outrageous allegation that GOP nominee Mitt Romney hadn't paid taxes for 10 years.
This was not a slip of the tongue, it was a calculated lie that Reid repeated several times in an attempt to pressure Romney into releasing tax returns for years prior to 2010.
A few days later, on Aug. 2, Reid doubled down in a speech on the Senate floor. "If a person coming before this body wanted to be a Cabinet officer, he couldn't be if he had the same refusal Mitt Romney does about tax returns," he said. "So the word is out that he has not paid any taxes for 10 years. Let him prove he has paid taxes, because he has not."
He tripled down on the accusation later that day in a statement saying that he was told by an "extremely credible source" that Romney hadn't paid taxes for 10 years.
The bogus claim...earned Reid a "pants on fire" rating from PolitiFact and "four Pinocchios" from Washington Post Fact
When asked about it three years later, you would think Reid would apologize or at least show the proper level of contrition that matches the irresponsible and undignified act of using the Senate floor to spread false allegations about a politician from the opposing party.
But Reid has no regrets. "I don't regret that at all," he told CNN's Dana Bash on Tuesday in the interview clip above. "Romney didn't win did he?"<.i>
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/harry-reid-gives-shameful-response-to-his-attack-on-mitt-romneys-taxes_b_6999996
All politicians are not alike, nor are all people.
DeleteLittle did Reid know that you magats love billionaires who cheat on their taxes. go fuck yourself, Dickhead in Cal
DeleteWish we had more politicians willing to fight to keep big money boys like Trump and Romney from hiding behind their tax returns. What kind of person needs to hide their tax returns, only the best kind?
DeleteSadly the three commenters above are now typical of voters. Voters want victory more than they want honesty.
DeleteTake Adam Schiff (please). As Chairman of the House Intelligence Committee he was privy to secret information. He claimed that secret information included various Trump scandals. These claims turned out to be false. Will voters punish him for lying? No, he will probably be our next Senator.
Oh please. Go ahead, show us the proof of this accusation about Schiff.
DeleteVoters want victory more than they want honesty.
DeleteSpeak for yourself, Dickhead in Cal. You voted for a man who promised to pack the SC with christo-fascists willing to fucking LIE to the Senate in their confirmation hearings just so they could overturn Roe the first chance they got. They LIED, Dickhead. They fucking LIED to the nation and now sit in judgement of all of us. Fuck you.
His signature achievement, the Crown Jewel of his presidency was overturning Roe, and you applauded it at the time. Now this week, Donald J Chickenshit just took a huge dump on the women of Arizona. You can shut the fuck up right about now about how disappointed you are in all of us.
Your judgement is faulty and you have no credibility here.
All politicians may lie, but they don't lie under oath in a court of law. If they did, Joe Biden might be charged with "crimes" by now.
DeleteRight, 7:08. that is why Donald J Chickenshit refused to answer questions under oath to Mueller.
DeleteWe can't objectively and tangibly examine another person't thoughts. Therefore the word "lie" is, itself, always a lie.
ReplyDeleteErase it and ban it forever.
When someone makes two contradictory statements, he has to know that they can't both be true. E.g., saying that he will always have Israel's back and also threatening that if Israel fails to conduct their war the way he wants, he will cut the weapons being supplied to them
Delete5:16,
DeleteWhich is the lie, that Trump wants to protect women's reproductive choices, or that Trump larded the Supreme Court with a bunch of religious cuckoos, who want to make women second-class citizens?
We used to have a commenter here, who called themselves "David in Cal", who insisted he supported women's reproductive choices, but will only vote for Republicans. Oops, that wasn't a commenter. That was a liar.
DeleteI'm torn. IMO Roe v Wade made no sense Constitutionally, but it was a good law. From a legal POV I'm glad it was overturned, but from a policy POV I wish it were still in effect.
DeleteMy understanding is that protecting a women's right to choose is a Republican value. Now that they overturned Roe v Wade.
DeleteYes, @7:24 sadly I agree with you. I disagree with the Republicans on this important issue.
DeleteTrump said something encouraging. He first said the states should decide. IMO that's Constitutionally correct. But, in the last day or two, Trump also said he disagrees with an absolute ban, like AZ's old law currently calls for. Maybe, with Trump's leadership, conservative, strict pro-life states will modify their strict abortion laws into some moderate compromise position, like 15 weeks. I hope.
David in Cal,
DeleteWhen you're not a member of the mainstream media, they let you dismiss Trump's words as meaningless.
When you're not a bigot, they let you vote for someone who isn't a Republican.
Delete"When someone makes two contradictory statements, he has to know that they can't both be true. E.g., saying that he will always have Israel's back and also threatening that if Israel fails to conduct their war the way he wants, he will cut the weapons being supplied to them". Speaking of lies.
DeletePoll, Does DIC's post Roe Republicans are going too far sound:
Deletea. As Pathetic as Trump
b. More Pathetic than Trump
c. I don't know, they are all fascist woman hating assholes
d. All of the above
DIC: What you construe as two contradictory statements do not qualify as such. If I say that I will always be my child's staunchest ally it does not mean that I support him being a bully in the neighborhood playground. If the IDF decided to target American journalists would you argue that they be given our unconditional support? Nobody should be giving Netanayu, who would be handily defeated in an election if held tomorrow, carte blanche to do what pleases his far right wing supporters. This would unnecessarily place US citizens at risk for terrorist activity.
DeleteYour position as stated is reminiscent of a previous claim that Americans condemning Netanyahu are antisemitic.We are not the only arms manufacturers in the world.
DeleteTrump said something encouraging.
DeleteGo fuck yourself, Dickhead in Cal.
Unamused - your comment is valid in theory, but Israel has done nothing remotely like targeting American journalists. Instead they have conducted an urban war so carefully that civilian casualties are at a record low number.
DeleteGod bless Jews.
DeleteAlso, fuck Israel.
Hamas killed about 1,200 Israelis. Israel's counterattack has (so far) killed about 33,000 Gazans, mostly women and children. That's a ratio of about 30 to 1. They've killed 200 aid workers and about 100 journalists. Biden's most recent push back came after three aid worker trucks were targeted, killing all 7 aid workers.
DeleteAnonymouse 6:05pm, by your logic, nature made ovulating women second class citizens.
ReplyDeleteBy the mainstream media's logic, the Republican Party isn't just a shit-pile of bigots, driven by grievance.
DeleteAnonymouse 7:36pm, by nature’s logic, you are.
DeleteBy nature’s logic, if you’re against misogyny, you vote for Trump.
DeleteThere are only two genders. Liberals and bigots.
Deleteugly
DeleteThere are three genders: he, she, it.
DeleteA human zygote is a human being.
DeleteA zygote is a nascent human being.
DeleteEven a fetus is a nascent human being.
DeleteIndeed.
DeleteOnly until birth.
DeleteEven women are nascent human beings.
DeleteAnonymouse 8:46pm, that’s the “philosophy” and it’s why it makes the zygote and fetus thing moot.
DeleteIdiot at 8:53,
DeleteWhat makes it moot, is that it doesn't keep Republicans from treating women as second-class citizens.
Re: the rollback of abortion
DeleteAs a pretend woman, Cecelia only pretend loses her human rights.
Even the immigrants at our border know the Right believes, "All Lives Matter".
DeleteAnonymouse 10:37pm, ovulation in women comes naturally. Unprotected sex is generally a choice,
DeleteAnonymouse 10:41pm, I don’t pretend to have lost my “human rights”. Neither do other prolife women.
DeleteYou don’t speak for them either.
Extra! Extra! Read all about it!
DeleteCecelia is no longer a victim.
Extra! Extra! Read all about it!
This is truly a "Stop the Presses!" moment, I didn't think I would live to see.
Other than watching man walk on the moon in 1969, this is the most incredible thing I've ever witessed.
Anonymouse 10:58pm, in your cohort, a woman who doesn’t claim to be a victim absolutely would be as rare as hens’ teeth.
DeleteSince 2000, any Right-winger who isn't a bigot is rarer than hens teeth.
DeletePoor Anonymouse flying monkeys endlesdly consigned to a rubber chicken act,
DeleteCecelia is a horrible person. She damages Republicanism every time she comments.
DeleteAnonymouse 11:25, I can’t say the same about anonymices and liberalism.
DeleteThey really aren’t liberals
A neonate is a developing human being.
DeleteUnprotected sex is natural sex.
DeletePeople generally are, though I don’t presume such for anonymices. .
DeleteAnonymouse 11:57pm, which naturally leads to babies.
DeleteI’m starting to believe that anonymices haven’t an inkling as to the “birds and the bees”.
DeleteThey think women are stricken with babies the way anonymices are stricken with temper tantrums and fatuousness.
Sometimes women are stricken with babies. Sometimes young girls are stricken. In those cases, should abortion be allowed?
Delete"he way anonymices are stricken with temper tantrums"
DeleteQ. How many Right-wing accusations are really confessions?
A. All of them, Katie.
Laura Ingram was a major offender in a lawsuit Fox had to settle for 88 Million dollars. That was for lying to the public attempting to assist Donald Trump in overthrowing the Executive Branch.
ReplyDeleteThat Bob can approach this subject without mentioning that, no matter who he is in sympathy with, shows he is not really serious about this subject.
If Trump were "severely mentally ill" he could never have gotten elected president. Like everyone, he wants certain things. He does things with the intent of realizing his goals. It was an incredible accomplishment for him to get elected, and to be admired by so many (also loathed by so many). TDH is off his skis on this severely mentally ill diagnosis, which he seems obsessed with. One thing is that if the press somehow heeded TDH's advice, and went with that narrative, there is no reason to believe it would be effective in stopping trump. (TDH constantly cites Bandy Lee as a "Yale" professor. I don't know if TDH know that she had an unpaid position. Also, I myself found and read an 11 or so page memo put out by Trump purporting to prove his position that the election was stolen (this was a couple of years ago). It relied a lot on DiNesh D'Souza's movie (sp?). Understating it significantly, I don't see Dinesh as a credible source. i wasn't impressed with his argument. This document must still be available on the internet; I suggest TDH look for it.
ReplyDeleteTrump was put into office by Russia and Comey and Wikileaks, not his own efforts.
DeleteI think Trump is both dumb and crazy,
Deletebut more dumb than crazy. Yet you
severely underestimate the damage
great sums of money in bad can
produce.
Misleading by ambiguity. Making statements that are true in one sense, but false in another sense:
ReplyDeleteInflation means prices are going up. To say inflation is going down might mean
1. Prices are going down
2. Prices are still rising, but more slowly than they had been
When the Administration boasts that inflation is going down, you can't say they're lying, since their boast is true in sense #2. Yet, we all know that many people will interpret their boast in sense #1.
Inflation isn’t the most important issue.
DeleteHere's some truth for you TDH readers.
DeleteTrump gave a HUGE tax break to corporations and the rich, and economically anxious Republican voters burnt his real estate holdings to the ground in protest.
There are actually two statements of fact in that sentence, and both are true.
Cecelia comes here and tries to provoke people into abusing her so she can feel more like a true victim and thus more womanly. That’s sick.
ReplyDeleteAnonymouse 11:34pm, you do sound sick and dangerous when you equate womanliness to victimhood.
DeleteSecond-class citizens whose decisions are made by other people are victims. Conditioning that second-class status on gender is wrong. Even a so-called flying monkey would understand that, but not Cecelia.
DeleteAnonymouse 9:50am, decisions that affect your life are made with the help of other people all the time. It’s called voting in representatives.
DeleteIf the people in the state where you live put constraints on abortion, guns, etc it’s the democratic process.
You may not like it, but aside from being a drama queen, you’re just another voter.
Thanks Captain Obvious. Do you think we've been fighting the fascist Right for shits and giggles?
DeleteWhich part of the democratic process is voter suppression?
Delete
ReplyDeleteIf you read lying words off a teleprompter, not knowing what they mean, you're not lying. You're just a trained monkey, a career politician.
However, people who concocted those words, they are lying.
You can't charge a police officer with murder when they shoot an unarmed black man, because that's what they are trained to do.
DeleteHowever, the people who did the training should be charged with murder.
Bravo to @5:51 for writing
Delete"If you read lying words off a teleprompter, not knowing what they mean, you're not lying. You're just a trained monkey, a career politician."
Trump's banking on his contempt for Republican voters to get Independents to vote for him.
DeleteThe Times wants to pretend it is fair to both sides by reporting facts from one side and lies from the other.
ReplyDeleteThe NY Times is a Right-wing rag, run by a corporation which craves corporate tax breaks.
Delete