How do you get suspended from preschool?

FRIDAY, MARCH 21, 2014

Smith-Evans, Rich don’t know: How do you get suspended from preschool?

We don’t know the answer to that. We never taught below the fifth grade level.

That said, someone else doesn’t seem to know, and it seems to us that maybe she should. That person was quoted today in a news report by Motoko Rich.

Rich was reporting on “comprehensive data released Friday by the Department of Education’s Office for Civil Rights.” We were struck by this passage:
RICH (3/21/14): One of the striking statistics to emerge from the data, based on information collected during the 2011-12 academic year, was that even as early as preschool, black students face harsher discipline than other students.

While black children make up 18 percent of preschool enrollment, close to half of all preschool children who are suspended more than once are African-American.

“To see that young African-American students—or babies, as I call them—are being suspended from pre-K programs at such horrendous rates is deeply troubling,” said Leticia Smith-Evans, interim director of education practice at the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund.

“It’s incredible to think about or fathom what pre-K students could be doing to get suspended from schools,” she added.
Should it be “deeply troubling” to see black kids being suspended from preschool “at such horrendous rates?”

We’re not sure—in part, because Rich never says what the rates actually are. Rich never says what percentage of kids get suspended from preschool, whether once or twice.

It may be that almost no one is getting suspended from preschool. Rich reports that black kids are getting suspended in disproportionate numbers—but how many kids does this involve?

Rich’s report doesn’t say.

Just yesterday, we noted that the New York Times often has trouble handling basic statistics. This strikes us as the latest example. That said, we’re even less impressed with Smith-Evans, who emotes to Rich while displaying what looks to us like a possible bit of cluelessness.

We’ll be honest—we didn’t know that kids get suspended from preschool at all. That said, should the director of education practice at such an important organization know more about this than we do?

We’re not sure what the answer is. For today, let's consider the rather obvious way we were supposed to react to this news report:

As we read this news report, we knew how we were supposed to react. The way we actually did react was substantially different.

As of now, we plan to start with this report next week. As for our basic reaction this morning:

We knew that we were supposed to get upset at all those preschool programs. Instead, we found ourselves upset with the slacker approach and the scripted outrage sometimes found among the watchdogs who are supposed to be helping our kids.

How do you get suspended from preschool? Should Smith-Evans know?

One last obvious question: Do the statistics cited by Rich mean that even as early as preschool, black students face harsher discipline than other students?

Not necessarily, no—though they certainly may. As we always say:

Discuss.

45 comments:

  1. Yes, indeed, Bob. I agree with everything you wrote. Additional questions and thoughts:

    1. What would the ratios be for kids who get suspended once or three time. In other words, did the Department of Education’s Office for Civil Rights cherry-pick to find the statistic that would show the greatest contrast?

    2. What behavior are kids getting suspended for? Are schools being too harsh? Not harsh enough?

    3, I read somewhere that there's large number of separate anti-discrimination units in the government. Are there too many? Are there so many that they have to stretch to find dubious instances of racial discrimination in order to justify their existence?

    ReplyDelete
  2. OMB (KZ Presents Rachel Somerby at Work)
    Part 1

    "How do you get suspended from preschool?

    We don’t know the answer to that....

    That said, someone else doesn’t seem to know, and it seems to us that maybe she should.

    We’ll be honest—we didn’t know that kids get suspended from preschool at all. That said, should the director of education practice at such an important organization know more about this than we do?

    We’re not sure what the answer is.....


    How do you get suspended from preschool? Should Smith-Evans know?" The Words of the OTB


    BOB has a question. BOB has no answer. Maybe someone should. BOB knows who she is. It seems to BOB she doesn't know. BOB doesn't know the answer to his question. Shouldn't that someone know more than BOB? He isn't sure. BOB has a question. Should Smith-Evans know?

    BOB of course never says Evans-Smith doesn't know. He presents no evidence she doesn't. Just that she seems not to. Based on the New York Times article she displays "what looks to us like a possible bit of cluelessness."

    She gave one response to a question we have not seen to a reporter. We can of course, trust the New York Times in this instance. Because BOB did.

    We find "ourselves upset with the slacker approach and the scripted outrage sometimes found among the watchdogs who are supposed to be" saving our intellectual culture from collapse at the hands of the media.


    KZ

    .

    ReplyDelete
  3. It has been a long time since I've had a child in preschool, but in my experience as a parent, the main thing that got a child suspended was biting another child. That's because of the effort involved in cleaning and bandaging bites and the risk of infection involved and the difficulty teaching a child not to do it. I heard someone discussing this report on the radio and they said that young children don't understand what a suspension means, so it isn't effective as discipline, but surely at that age the discipline is aimed at the parents.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. If a young minority child bites, he should not be placed into the school-to-prison pipeline by racist administrators. He should be permitted to remain in the school and parents of students who don't bite should be willing to allow their child to endure a little pain or infection for the greater good.

      Delete
    2. I think it might entail kids being disruptive, "unruly", perhaps involving hostile behavior.

      Delete
  4. Thank you for the invitation to discuss. This piece struck me for all of the question begging on the part of government officials and bureaucrats, that the reason behind the disparity is some kind of discrimination.

    In fact, there are many other possible (probable) explanations. But no progressive will dare utter them. They will force feed you the explanation that makes them feel better.

    Inherent in the comments by Holder and the others is the expectation that it should be the other students and the school that absorbs the consequences of the misbehavior of poorly parented youngsters.

    Almost amusing, at least for those who aren't unfortunate enough that their children are forced to be educated in the average public school system.

    ReplyDelete
  5. "That said, we’re even less impressed with Smith-Evans, who emotes to Rich while displaying what looks to us like a possible bit of cluelessness."

    Um, Smith-Evans was responding to the Dept of Education report that did give the numbers. She can hardly be blamed for Rich's shortfall. If you think it's not a horrendous rate if over 1.3% of black pre-schoolers are suspended compared to about 0.3% white pre-schoolers, that is your right, but thinking the rate and the difference are horrendous, especially when it seems to match the huge disparity for students at other age groups where explanations (or excuses) are easier to imagine, does not make anyone clueless. It's a piece of data that should be reported. How we are "supposed" to interpret it is beside the point.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Then why don't you utter them, since you're so brave -- brave, I'm sure, when you're surrounded by people you know will agree with you?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I said poorly parented, and I already know the types of people who will agree and the types who will force themselves to be as stupid as they can in order not to agree.

      Delete
  7. The NYT article was about more than preschoolers. That's the problem if you actually read sources on your own, then come to Bob, then read the comments. Most of Bob's commenters (and, possibly, readers) take his take as fair summary. It usually isn't.

    You want a thoughtful take on takes?
    http://prospect.org/article/some-thoughts-new-journalistic-ventures-internet-time-and-your-media-diet

    mch

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. He focuses on the aspects that interest him. His goal is not necessarily to summarize. It is to comment upon some aspect of work presented elsewhere (and always linked to so readers can see the whole thing). Whether you think his "take" is fair probably depends on whether you agree with him or not.

      Delete
    2. His take is to do exactly what he criticizes other for doing.
      And his small coterie of followers object when that is pointed out.

      Delete
  8. Someone in the mainstream media finally shows some interest in black kids and Somerby shits all over them.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Cha know, this really gets to it. Bob wants us to imagine him as a fifth-grade teacher. But what decent teacher operates the way he does here? Any decent teacher finds a way to criticize (for the sake of improvement, not put-down) while encouraging and nurturing the good she has detected. mch

      Delete
    2. If we were all fifth grade age this would be a cogent complaint. But cha know what? We ain't.

      Delete
    3. A teacher, a parent, a friend, a citizen, builds on insights rather than tearing people down for being imperfect. Bob likes to appeal to that scenario when it suits him.

      And we are all always in fifth grade, in some important way. What world do you live in? (My "cha," btw, I as NJ girl also often pronounce "you." Did you get that? I think maybe you did. Which is why I really feel something close to hatred for you now. And I really almost never hate much. Congrats, Bob! Your experiment in stirring up a second Civil War is working! You might try, you know, that MLK love you like to preach.) mch

      Delete
  9. I wonder if previous annual reports from the Department of Education's
    Office of Civil Rights got any coverage at all since they had no data on pre-school suspensions?

    We hope Somerby covers this.

    ReplyDelete
  10. It's actually not that hard to find out if and why preschoolers get suspended. Just ask around. My son's school sends kid home if they bit a classmate. They do this even with the youngest kids --- 3. My son got sent home a couple of times for this, as did his friends. In my son's case, the second "suspension" sunk in --- he never bit anyone again.

    Suspension may be an overwrought term.

    ReplyDelete
  11. It's these damn parents. Seriously. I don't care what ethnicity you are.

    If I'm in the supermarket and I see kids playing in the produce or running their hands through the bulk items, I'm outta there. Last time I was in a mall some kid was licking away on a mirror while slackjaw mom locked on. Walmart? Forget about it. As if their business practices weren't bad enough, the place is filled with screaming, wailing kids with little or no adult supervision.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Looking at coverage of this report by other media outlets, it appears the report was issued Thursday with an embargo for midnight Friday release. Most news outlets chose to go with an Associated Press report issued at that time. AP noted the total number, over 5000 first time suspenisons and 2,500 multiple suspensions out of over 1,000,000 students. That is as refined as the report data is made from the Dept. of Education. The report lists no reasons for suspension. Did the Dept. of Education collect such data? Should they have? We don't know?

    ReplyDelete
  13. I think that we need more information about the reason for suspensions in pre-school. It's too easy of an answer to blame it on racism. I agree that it is racism to not have essential courses taught at all high schools. But I don't believe that the pre schools are suspending kids based on race. That may be the result, but I believe there are other factors like the homes where some of the children come from.

    ReplyDelete
  14. I heard the report yesterday on NPR.
    They mentioned percentages among races, but not causes.
    Also missing were the demographics.
    How big (or small) were the schools?
    What schools were sampled?
    What was the percentage of inner-city schools to rural or suburban schools?
    Lots of questions but few answers.

    http://www.edweek.org/ew/qc/2013/ocrdata.html?intc=EW-QC13-LFTNAV
    Figures for 2009-2010 expulsions showed Black 41.5%, Hispanic 23.9%, White 32.9%.

    That the expulsion rates were much higher in southern states than elsewhere would indicate that racism does play a part.

    Why don't they pay these kids to do janitorial work instead of throwing them out?
    After all, we are told they grew up without seeing any hard-working, law abiding role models.

    Give them a chance to learn something besides waiting tables and shining shoes. (And peddling drugs or their bodies.)

    ReplyDelete
  15. That the expulsion rates were much higher in southern states than elsewhere would indicate that racism does play a part.

    Instead of "would indicate", I'd say "would suggest the possibility". Without knowing actual facts of why kids were suspended or were not suspended, one cannot make a definite conclusion.

    To see why pure statistics don't answer the question, consider conditions when my daughters attended elementary school in Berkeley. School policy apparently discouraged suspending students. Now suppose a black student was disruptive. Would you say it was racist to suspend him? Or, is it racist to let him keep coming to class, and thus impair the education of the other black students in the class? IMHO you can't answer this question without knowing the specific facts.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Indicate is not concluding if you must thin-slice, Dinky.

    ReplyDelete
  17. So what are the actual numbers for suspended pre-schoolers?

    According to an article from Fox News

    "Nationally, 1 million children were served in public preschool programs, with about 60 percent of districts offering preschool during the 2011-2012 school year, according to the data. The data shows nearly 5,000 preschoolers suspended once. At least 2,500 were suspended more than once."

    So 5,000 preschoolers out of 1,000,000 would mean a suspension rate of 1 out of 200. If AA kids are suspended at about double the usual rate, then it would be roughly 1 out of 100.

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/03/21/thousands-preschool-kids-getting-suspended/

    An important national problem? Hard to see it.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. If more students sign up will the ratio stay the same? If so then there's a real problem. That's what Bob is questioning, not the overall numbers.

      Delete
  18. " Totals: Enrollment is 49 million students, in school suspension is 3.5
    million students, single out ofschool suspension is 1.9 million students, multiple out of school suspension is 1.55 million students, and expulsion is 130,000 students."
    from "CIVIL RIGHTS DATA COLLECTION
    Data Snapshot: School Discipline" from Ed.gov which was linked to in the article.

    ReplyDelete
  19. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/17/education/17expel.html

    ReplyDelete
  20. Thanks for informative post. I am pleased sure this post has helped me save many hours of browsing other similar posts just to find what I was looking for. Just I want to say: Thank you.
    keyword

    ReplyDelete
  21. nike shoes, Cheap Jordans,Cheap Jordan Shoes,Cheap Air Max,Cheap Free Run Shoes,nike shoes,nike outlet,nike factory,nike store,nike factory outlet,nike outlet store,cheap nike shoes,nike sneakers, toms outlet, toms outlet,tom shoes,toms shoes outlet,tom shoes,toms wedges,cheap toms,toms.com, air jordan, air jordan,jordan shoes,cheap jordans,air jordans,jordan retro,air jordan shoes,jordans,jordan 11,jordan xx9,jordan 6,new jordans,retro jordans,jordan retro 11,jordan 5,air jordan 11,jordans for sale,jordan 4,jordan 1,jordan future,jordan 3,jordan 12,michael jordan shoes,air jordan retro, cheap jordans, cheap jordans,cheap jordan shoes,cheap jordan,cheap jordans for sale,jordans for cheap,jordan shoes,jordans,air jordan,jordan retro,jordan 11,jordan xx9,jordan 6,new jordans,air jordans,retro jordans,jordan retro 11,jordan 5,air jordan 11,jordans for sale,jordan 4,jordan 1,jordan future,jordan 3,jordan 12,michael jordan shoes,air jordan shoes,air jordan retro, jordan retro, jordan retro,jordan shoes,air jordan,air jordans,retro jordans,air jordan retro,jordans,jordan 11,jordan xx9,jordan 6,new jordans,cheap jordans,jordan retro 11,jordan 5,air jordan 11,jordans for sale,jordan 4,jordan 1,jordan future,jordan 3,jordan 12,michael jordan shoes,air jordan shoes, air max 90, air max 90,nike air max 90,air max 95,air max 2014,air max 2013,air max 1,nike air max,air max,nike air max 2014,airmax,nike air max 2013, air max 95, air max 95,nike air max 95,air max 90,nike air max 90,air max 2013,nike air max,air max,air max 2014,nike air max 2014,airmax,nike air max 2013, nike free 5.0, nike free 5.0, nike free trainer 5.0,nike free run 5.0,free running 2,nike free run,nike free,free running,nike running shoes,nike free trainer,free runs,free run 5.0, omega watches, omega watches,omega watch,replica watches,rolex watches,replica omega watches,rolex,watches for men,watches for women,rolex watches for sale,rolex replica,rolex watch,cartier watches,rolex submariner,fake rolex,rolex replica watches,replica rolex, ralph lauren outlet

    ReplyDelete
  22. ralph lauren outlet,ralph lauren outlet online,polo ralph lauren outlet,polo ralph lauren outlet online,polo ralph lauren,ralph lauren,polo ralph,polo shirts,ralphlauren.com,polo outlet,ralph lauren polo, oakley sunglass, oakley sunglasses,cheap oakley,cheap oakley sunglasses,oakley sunglasses cheap,oakley outlet,oakley sunglasses outlet,oakley vault,oakleys,oakley.com,sunglasses outlet,cheap sunglasses,oakley prescription glasses,fake oakleys,oakley glasses,oakley store,fake oakley,oakley sale,cheap oakleys,discount oakley sunglasses, ray ban sunglasses, Ray Ban Sunglasses,Ray Ban Outlet,Ray Ban Sale,Cheap Ray Bans,Cheap Ray Ban Sunglasses,ray ban sunglasses outlet,ray ban,rayban,ray bans,ray-ban,raybans,ray ban wayfarer,ray-ban sunglasses,raybans.com,rayban sunglasses,cheap ray ban, burberry, burberry,burberry outlet,burberry outlet online,burberry factory outlet,burberry sale,burberry handbags, chanel bags, chanel bags,chanel handbags,chanel sunglasses,chanel outlet,chanel purses,chanel handbags official site, coach outlet store, coach outlet,coach outlet store,coach outlet store online,coach outlet stores,coach factory outlet,coach factory,coach factory online,coach factory outlet online,coach outlet online, chaussures louboutin, louboutin,louboutin pas cher,christian louboutin,louboutin chaussures,louboutin soldes,chaussure louboutin,chaussures louboutin,chaussure louboutin pas cher,louboutin france, sac michael kors, michael kors,sac michael kors,michael kors sac,michael kors pas cher,sac michael kors pas cher,michael kors france, north face outlet, north face outlet,the north face,north face,the north face outlet,north face jackets,north face jackets clearance,northface, yoga pants, yoga pants,lululemon,lululemon outlet,lululemon athletica,lululemon addict,lulu lemon,lulu.com,lululemon.com, beats by dre

    ReplyDelete
  23. nike shoes, Cheap Jordans,Cheap Jordan Shoes,Cheap Air Max,Cheap Free Run Shoes,nike shoes,nike outlet,nike factory,nike store,nike factory outlet,nike outlet store,cheap nike shoes,nike sneakers, toms outlet, toms outlet,tom shoes,toms shoes outlet,tom shoes,toms wedges,cheap toms,toms.com, air jordan, air jordan,jordan shoes,cheap jordans,air jordans,jordan retro,air jordan shoes,jordans,jordan 11,jordan xx9,jordan 6,new jordans,retro jordans,jordan retro 11,jordan 5,air jordan 11,jordans for sale,jordan 4,jordan 1,jordan future,jordan 3,jordan 12,michael jordan shoes,air jordan retro, cheap jordans, cheap jordans,cheap jordan shoes,cheap jordan,cheap jordans for sale,jordans for cheap,jordan shoes,jordans,air jordan,jordan retro,jordan 11,jordan xx9,jordan 6,new jordans,air jordans,retro jordans,jordan retro 11,jordan 5,air jordan 11,jordans for sale,jordan 4,jordan 1,jordan future,jordan 3,jordan 12,michael jordan shoes,air jordan shoes,air jordan retro, jordan retro, jordan retro,jordan shoes,air jordan,air jordans,retro jordans,air jordan retro,jordans,jordan 11,jordan xx9,jordan 6,new jordans,cheap jordans,jordan retro 11,jordan 5,air jordan 11,jordans for sale,jordan 4,jordan 1,jordan future,jordan 3,jordan 12,michael jordan shoes,air jordan shoes, air max 90, air max 90,nike air max 90,air max 95,air max 2014,air max 2013,air max 1,nike air max,air max,nike air max 2014,airmax,nike air max 2013, air max 95, air max 95,nike air max 95,air max 90,nike air max 90,air max 2013,nike air max,air max,air max 2014,nike air max 2014,airmax,nike air max 2013, nike free 5.0, nike free 5.0, nike free trainer 5.0,nike free run 5.0,free running 2,nike free run,nike free,free running,nike running shoes,nike free trainer,free runs,free run 5.0, omega watches, omega watches,omega watch,replica watches,rolex watches,replica omega watches,rolex,watches for men,watches for women,rolex watches for sale,rolex replica,rolex watch,cartier watches,rolex submariner,fake rolex,rolex replica watches,replica rolex, ralph lauren outlet, ralph lauren outlet,ralph lauren outlet online,polo ralph lauren outlet,polo ralph lauren outlet online,polo ralph lauren,ralph lauren,polo ralph,polo shirts,ralphlauren.com,polo outlet,ralph lauren polo, oakley sunglass, thomas sabo

    ReplyDelete
  24. oakley sunglasses,cheap oakley,cheap oakley sunglasses,oakley sunglasses cheap,oakley outlet,oakley sunglasses outlet,oakley vault,oakleys,oakley.com,sunglasses outlet,cheap sunglasses,oakley prescription glasses,fake oakleys,oakley glasses,oakley store,fake oakley,oakley sale,cheap oakleys,discount oakley sunglasses, ray ban sunglasses, Ray Ban Sunglasses,Ray Ban Outlet,Ray Ban Sale,Cheap Ray Bans,Cheap Ray Ban Sunglasses,ray ban sunglasses outlet,ray ban,rayban,ray bans,ray-ban,raybans,ray ban wayfarer,ray-ban sunglasses,raybans.com,rayban sunglasses,cheap ray ban, burberry, burberry,burberry outlet,burberry outlet online,burberry factory outlet,burberry sale,burberry handbags, chanel bags, chanel bags,chanel handbags,chanel sunglasses,chanel outlet,chanel purses,chanel handbags official site, coach outlet store, coach outlet,coach outlet store,coach outlet store online,coach outlet stores,coach factory outlet,coach factory,coach factory online,coach factory outlet online,coach outlet online, chaussures louboutin, louboutin,louboutin pas cher,christian louboutin,louboutin chaussures,louboutin soldes,chaussure louboutin,chaussures louboutin,chaussure louboutin pas cher,louboutin france, sac michael kors, michael kors,sac michael kors,michael kors sac,michael kors pas cher,sac michael kors pas cher,michael kors france, north face outlet, north face outlet,the north face,north face,the north face outlet,north face jackets,north face jackets clearance,northface, yoga pants, yoga pants,lululemon,lululemon outlet,lululemon athletica,lululemon addict,lulu lemon,lulu.com,lululemon.com, beats by dre, beats by dre,beats headphones,beats audio,beats by dr dre,beats by dre headphones,dr dre,dre beats,beats by dr,dr dre beats,dre headphones,beats by dr. dre,cheap beats, ferragamo, ferragamo,salvatore ferragamo,ferragamo shoes,ferragamo outlet,salvatore ferragamo outlet,ferragamo belts,ferragamo belt,ferragamo outlet, nike blazer, nike blazer,blazer nike,nike blazer pas cher,Chaussures Nike Blazer,Nike Blazer Femme, nike air force, swarovski crystal, swarovski

    ReplyDelete