THURSDAY, APRIL 20, 2023
Alex Wagner's account: We were puzzled by some of the things we heard last evening on Alex Wagner Tonight.
At one point, Wagner was talking about the recent shooting of 16-year-old Ralph Yarl, a good, decent high school kid. She offered this slightly odd remark about Kansas City's "Northland," a two-county area within which Yarl and his family live:
Now, what is notable about Northland, aside from the fact that 60% of its residents are white, is that it sits within Clay County, which is a staunchly Republican area.
That seems like a rather odd statement. Why would it be "notable" if 60 percent of the "Northland" area's residents were white?
According to the Census Bureau, 59.3% of this nation's entire population is (non-Hispanic) white! It's hard to know why it would be "notable" if a virtually identical figure obtained in Kansas City's Northland.
In fact, the two counties which seem to comprise Northland are much more heavily white than that. (According to the Census Bureau, Clay County is 79.2% white. Platte County is 79.1% white.)
It's easy enough to research such facts, but "cable news" programs frequently don't bother. Instead, their hosts may proceed directly with such peculiar remarks as this:
Clay County voted overwhelmingly for Donald Trump both times, just like the state itself. Missouri voted for Trump in both elections.
"Clay County voted overwhelmingly for Donald Trump?" As Wagner spoke, a graphic on the screen showed this:
CLAY COUNTY, MO
PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION RESULTS[...[
2020
Donald Trump 51%
Joe Biden 46.9%
Is 51 to 47 an "overwhelming" vote? Given American voting patterns and Clay County's demographics, we'd say that Trump's margin in Clay County was perhaps surprisingly slender. (Statewide, Trump won Missouri over Biden, 57-41.)
Whatever! Wagner was painting a certain picture, and when cable hosts start panting pictures, their statements may not always make perfect sense.
We've been surprised by some of the work we've seen Wagner presenting of late. Today, though, we want to focus on a "horror story" she told on Tuesday night's program.
Her presentation started like this:
WAGNER (4/18/23): You have heard this horror story too many times before...
That's the way she started. We'd have to say that this "horror story" came to us, live and direct, from a realm called Storyline.
Beyond that, we'd have to say that everyone has heard Wagner's version of this horror story way too many times, especially since—as a matter of basic journalism—her story was grossly bogus.
The public has been hearing this "horror story" since 2012. We think everyone has heard the story told this way too many times, but we'd say that especially true of people who were children when Wagner's version of the story started getting told and retold on a regular basis.
Wagner told a horror story in which she picked and chose her facts in a grossly misleading way. In that way, she produced a standard, thoroughly novelized version of a tragic event.
Her story started like this:
WAGNER (4/18/23): You have heard this horror story too many times before.
A Black teenager is out doing a mundane task. In 2012, it was a quick trip to a convenience store. The teenager was 17, and he was on his way back to his father's place with a bottle of juice and a bag of Skittles. He was wearing a hoodie and he was Black.
Inevitably, Wagner started with the bag of Skittles. The Skittles had absolutely nothing to do with what happened that night, but they make the preferred story work.
Did the hoodie play any role in what happened that night? There has never been any particular evidence of that either, but the hoodie also became a part of the standard novelized tale.
Wagner was telling that novelized version of what happened that night. Her story continued like this:
WAGNER (continuing directly): His name was Trayvon Martin, and a 28-year-old neighbor, George Zimmerman, claimed he was acting in self-defense when he shot Trayvon.
There had been a series of robberies in the area and Zimmerman said he shot Trayvon because he was afraid. He feared bodily harm.
Months passed before Zimmerman was actually arrested and charged for killing Trayvon Martin. He wasn't charged on the spot because police said they couldn't disprove Zimmerman's version of events, that he stood his ground.
After weeks of protesters sounding the alarm, George Zimmerman was finally charged with second-degree murder. He was acquitted.
Wagner included the bag of Shittles. As she told viewers what Zimmerman said, she omitted the broken nose and the other injuries which form a part of the fuller story, to the extent that the fuller story has ever been fully known.
On a journalistic basis, there's no excuse for telling this story the way Wagner did. Little real evidence ever emerged to tell us what actually happened that night. Wagner was including the irrelevant details our blue tribe loves while omitting a range of basic facts which don't serve Storyline.
George Zimmerman did indeed say that was afraid that night—that he feared bodily harm, even death, when he shot and killed Trayvon Martin.
To our ear, Wagner's sardonic tone of voice wasn't especially hard to hear as she cited that statement. That said, did it make any kind of sense that Zimmerman might have had such a fear on the night in question?
While opening with the bag of Skittles, Wagner chose to omit one basic part of what happened that night. She failed to say that Zimmerman and Martin were engaged in a physical altercation—in a violent fight—when Zimmerman said he feared for his life.
Did Zimmerman have any reason to fear? In July 2013, a Florida jury found Zimmerman not guilty of second-degree murder and manslaughter. In the comment section to this essay at the Atlantic, Ta-Nehisi Coates said that Zimmerman had good reason to be afraid:
COATES (7/14/13): As a younger man, I was in a few fights—mostly on the losing end. Some I provoked. Some I didn't. But in almost every one I can make a case for "death or great bodily harm." One I remember specifically, a guy hit me over the head with a steel trash can at the start. But the fight ended with me overtop of him—much like Trayvon was said to be over Zimmerman—wailing away. He had started the fight—but by Florida law I was the aggressor.
Fights are not like boxing matches. If you provoke one and start losing, your life is basically in someone else's hands. You should be afraid. Punches actually do kill people and cause "great bodily harm."
COMMENTER: I don't see how being on the losing end of a fist fight means a person "reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm."
COATES: I am on the ground and you are on top of me wailing away. I am most certainly in "imminent danger of death or great bodily harm."
I say this as someone who has been in that position, and the person putting someone in that position. It is really, really frightening. And you are in danger of "great bodily harm" at the very least. Punches kill people. Skulls hit concrete or tables and cause great damage.
And that assumes that you know you are only being hit with someone's fist. What if it feels like your being hit with brass knuckles? What if you think you see the person reaching for something to finish the job?
Fights are not tame staid events. They are chaotic, random and very, very scary. They are not regulated. There are no TKOs. Fist-fights kill people—and there is no guarantee that a fist-fight will stay at that level.
The comment thread to Coates' essay is no longer available online. But by the time of the jury's verdict, no one doubted that Zimmerman and Martin had been engaged in a violent fight—and that Zimmerman had been on his back, on the ground, on the losing end of that fight.
Coates told skeptical readers that Zimmerman had every reason to fear for his life. In his essay, Coates said the jury had reached the correct verdict as a legal matter, though he also said that he suspected that it was Zimmerman, rather than Martin, who had instigated the fight.
Here's the fuller passage from Coates' essay, which is still available online. We highlight a very important point:
COATES (7/14/13): The idea that Zimmerman got out of the car to check the street signs and was ambushed by a 17-year old kid with no violent history, who told him "you're going to die tonight," strikes me as very implausible. It strikes me as much more plausible that Martin was being followed by a strange person, that the following resulted in a confrontation, that Martin was getting the best of Zimmerman in the confrontation, and that Zimmerman then shot him. But I didn't see the confrontation. No one else really saw the confrontation. Except George Zimmerman. I'm not even clear that situation I outlined would result in conviction.
Coates' essay can also be seen at The Root, free of any paywall.
Coates suspected that it was Zimmerman who instigated the fight. To his credit, he had the basic honesty to make the following statement:
"But I didn't see the confrontation. No one else really saw the confrontation."
We didn't see it either! Among people who want to be honest about how much they know, that's an important point.
In fact, one neighbor did see the confrontation, up close, as it was proceeding. He testified that Martin was on top of Zimmerman, and was aggressively punching him, shortly before the fatal shots were fired. (This neighbor testified that he had gone back inside his house to call 911 when the fatal shot was fired.)
We didn't see any part of what happened. For that reason, we don't know who may have instigated the fight.
We don't know if Zimmerman was following Martin that night, or if Martin may have been following Zimmerman. We don't know how their paths crossed. In his essay for the Atlantic, Coates said he didn't know either.
If you think such facts have been established about what happened that night, that may be because you've spent that past eleven years listening to people like Wagner telling the story in a journalistically inexcusable way. So has every 20-year-old kid, white and black together (or apart), who has grown up listening to thoroughly novelized accounts of this tragic event.
What happened that night was a "horror story." When people like Wagner pick and choose their facts, they create their own such story.
In truth, the basic facts about this story never did become clear. Along the way, our blue tribe ran with several factual claims about what happened which turned out to be inaccurate. But nothing will ever stop people like Wagner from cartoonizing this "horror story" in the way she did Tuesday night.
Skittles IN, violent fight OUT! Unless we're dealing with simple incompetence, there's no excuse for a multimillionaire corporate journalist to do what Wagner did.
What actually happened on that tragic evening, out back, in the dark, with no one watching? The basic facts of this tragic matter never did become clear.
Presumably, that helps explain why a jury came back with a "not guilty" verdict. Beyond that, we advise you, once again, to consider what Coates said about the fear of death which is legitimate when someone is involved in a violent fight—a violent fight which the journalist Wagner didn't even mention.
There's zero journalistic excuse for what Wagner did. Last night, her "cable news" program was littered with other strange, somewhat loaded remarks.
We feel sorry for every 20-year-old kid who has grown up, in the past eleven years, being told that horror story in the way Wagner continues to tell it.
Read again what Coates said on the day after the acquittal. Why did Wagner mention the Skittles but omit the broken nose which emerged from the unmentioned violent fight?
The answer to that question seems simple; viewers were getting played. Such are the wages of Storyline at polarized times such as these.
Tomorrow: Back to Charles Blow's concern
"Did the hoodie play any role in what happened that night? There has never been any particular evidence of that either, but the hoodie also became a part of the standard novelized tale."
ReplyDeleteBeing black had everything to do with what happened to Trayvon Martin that night. It was the sole reason that Zimmerman paid any attention to him, the reason he called the cops and the reason he stopped and confronted him. Because the kid was black.
Alex Wagner was not inventing facts. Somerby is refusing to face them. The kid went to the store for a snack and he died for that. A self-appointed vigilante shot him. Those are FACTS that Somerby keeps refusing to face, imagining that Martin brought any more than that down on himself.
I am tired of Somerby's apologies for racist behavior that gets innocent black people killed. Alex Wagner had it right.
This comment also contains a logical fallacy known as a strawman argument. The original statement was questioning whether the hoodie played a role in what happened, not whether race played a role. The commenter's response immediately shifts the focus to race, suggesting that Somerby is refusing to acknowledge that race was a factor in Trayvon Martin's death. While it is certainly true that race played a significant role in the events that led to Martin's death, it is a different argument from the one being made in the original statement.
DeleteAside from the strawman argument, this comment also contains ad hominem attacks against Somerby. The commenter accuses him of making "apologies for racist behavior" and suggests that he has a personal stake in defending Zimmerman's actions. These attacks are not relevant to the discussion at hand and do not address the actual argument being made. They also do not contribute to a productive or respectful conversation.
This comment could be improved by focusing on addressing the argument being made in the original statement. Rather than making personal attacks or shifting the focus to a different argument, the commenter could provide evidence or reasoning to support their assertion that race played a role in Trayvon Martin's death, and why they believe the hoodie did not play a significant role. They could also acknowledge that the original statement did not necessarily deny that race played a role in the incident, and address the point directly. By staying on topic and providing reasoned arguments, the discussion can remain respectful and productive.
Hoody is a signal of race.
DeleteSomerby deserves all attacks.
A reader need not accept the framing and premises of the blogger in expressing their own opinions.
These are bogus, pseudo-logical analyses that sound like they are being generated by AI and ignore all previous discussion here and the larger context of Somerby’s complaints over the past12 years. Unhelpful.
While the hoodie may be perceived by some as a signal of race, it is not a universal symbol and not everyone who wears a hoodie is black. Therefore, it cannot be used as evidence that the hoodie played a role in the events of that night.
DeleteIt is important to engage in respectful dialogue and refrain from personal attacks. Disagreement is a natural part of discourse, but it should be based on arguments and evidence, not on personal attacks.
It is also important to consider the context of previous discussions and complaints, but it is equally important to evaluate each argument on its own merits, without dismissing it based solely on past disagreements.
Obviously not everyone in a hoodie is black, but that hoodie is what attracted Zimmerman's attention to the black kid that he targeted.
DeleteStrawman -- I didn't dismiss anything based SOLELY on past disagreements, and didn't say that I did. This so-called logic bot is making things up that are not occurring in the comments being dissected. It is introducing its own fallacies (by its rules, not mine).
Stand your ground laws don't apply for black people.
ReplyDelete"On a journalistic basis, there's no excuse for telling this story the way Wagner did."
ReplyDeleteOn a truthful basis there is no excuse for telling the story the way Somerby does. He was not there but he accepts every self-serving thing said by Zimmerman and nothing else. There were two sides to the story but Trayvon Martin did not get to tell his side because he was dead.
Those Skittles are important because they provide a motive for Martin to be out of the house and where he was walking. Zimmerman had no reason to be in that neighborhood, walking around with a gun and looking for trouble. The cops told him to stay in his truck but he stalked Martin and left his truck and confronted the kid, with no authority and no reason to be doing so. But it is "his ground" that he is standing, because a kid has no ground apparently, and a man with a gun can go wherever he wants and do whatever he wants, especially when the kid is dead and cannot tell his story at all.
I approve of Alex Wagner telling Trayvon Martin's story. Someone has to, since he cannot.
Why does Somerby keep returning to this incident over and over? Why has he made it central to his own narrative that the news has been pushing a racialized version of gun-related encounters since then? I think Somerby's conscience is uneasy and he is talking too much to cover his own uneasiness about what happened. His own narrative is working overtime to make it OK that Somerby is a white guy with the same thoughts and beliefs as Zimmerman, who shot a kid for no good reason. So Somerby needs a reason, he accepts Zimmerman's lies and condones the racism that makes the streets unsafe for black people, even in those nice white suburbs he blames Alex Wagner for describing as a tad white supremacist.
If you defend racist vigilante violence, you just might be a racist yourself. That seems to be Somerby's fear -- acknowledging his own knee-jerk bigotry in which he defends people like Zimmerman who deserves no defense and makes this country unsafe for black teens (with or without Skittles).
There are numerous logical fallacies present in this comment as well:
DeleteAd Hominem Fallacy: The author attacks Somerby's character by suggesting that he is a "racist" who defends "racist vigilante violence." This is an ad hominem attack and does not address the substance of Somerby's argument.
Strawman Fallacy: The author misrepresents Somerby's argument by suggesting that he accepts "every self-serving thing said by Zimmerman and nothing else." This is a strawman fallacy, as it misrepresents Somerby's position and ignores any evidence or arguments he may have presented.
False Dilemma Fallacy: The author presents a false dilemma by suggesting that anyone who defends Zimmerman's actions must be a "racist." This is a false dilemma, as there may be other reasons someone could defend Zimmerman's actions, such as a belief that he acted in self-defense.
Appeal to Emotion Fallacy: The author appeals to the reader's emotions by portraying Martin as a victim of "racist vigilante violence" and implying that anyone who disagrees with this characterization must be a racist. This emotional appeal does not address the substance of Somerby's argument or the legal question of whether Zimmerman acted in self-defense.
Overall, while the author may have strong feelings about the Zimmerman case and Somerby's opinions on it, their argument contains several logical fallacies and does not provide a reasoned response to Somerby's position.
Fuck off
Delete12:47
DeleteRemember, everyone makes mistakes, and having an argument shown to be illogical is not a personal attack. It's an opportunity to learn and grow. By remaining calm, acknowledging the mistake, and learning from it, you can turn a negative experience into a positive one.
Here are some tips to cope with your feelings:
Stay calm: It's natural to feel upset or defensive when someone challenges our beliefs or arguments. However, getting emotional or angry won't help the situation. Take a deep breath and try to remain calm.
Acknowledge the mistake: It takes courage and intellectual honesty to admit that one's argument was flawed. If you have been shown that your argument is illogical, it's important to acknowledge the mistake and accept that you were wrong.
Learn from the mistake: Once you've acknowledged the mistake, try to learn from it. Identify what went wrong with your argument and try to understand why it was flawed. This will help you to avoid making the same mistake in the future.
Ask questions: If you're unsure why your argument was illogical or how to fix it, don't be afraid to ask questions. Engage in a constructive conversation with the person who pointed out the mistake, and try to understand their perspective.
Reframe the argument: Sometimes, an argument can be salvaged by reframing it or looking at it from a different perspective. Consider how you might adjust your argument to make it more logical.
No thank you, it is a waste of time to play games with you. Fuck off.
Delete"But by the time of the jury's verdict, no one doubted that Zimmerman and Martin had been engaged in a violent fight—and that Zimmerman had been on his back, on the ground, on the losing end of that fight."
ReplyDeleteDid Coates say that his fight ended with someone shooting someone else? Would it be justified to shot someone in anticipation of them starting a deadly fist-fight?
The problem in this scenario is that Zimmerman started the fight. And he finished it in his own favor by shooting Martin as he (Martin) defended himself from Zimmerman. Martin didn't have a gun. But if he had, the innocent kid would have been charged and tried, and would he have been acquitted? I doubt it.
Somerby thinks Zimmerman should have been acquitted because of the fist fight, but how did they get to that situation? Does Zimmerman bear no responsibility for stalking Martin? Does the kid's fear at being stalked by an unknown man mean nothing?
These irrelevancies about whether Zimmerman feared for his life while being beaten by a boy he himself stalked, may have to do with the technicalities of the FL stand-your-ground law, but it wasn't Zimmerman's ground. It was Trayvon's.
There are a number of logical fallacies in this comment, particularly in the arguments made against Zimmerman's acquittal:
DeleteStrawman Fallacy: The author misrepresents Somerby's argument by suggesting that he believes Zimmerman should be acquitted solely because there was a fight between him and Martin. However, Somerby's argument seems to be that the prosecution failed to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman did not act in self-defense when he shot Martin.
False Dilemma Fallacy: The author presents a false dilemma by suggesting that if Martin had a gun and shot Zimmerman in self-defense, he would have been charged and convicted. This is an oversimplification of self-defense laws and ignores the fact that the prosecution has to prove that the defendant did not act in self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt.
Ad Hominem Fallacy: The author attacks Zimmerman's character by accusing him of "stalking" Martin, without providing evidence to support this claim. This is irrelevant to the legal question of whether Zimmerman acted in self-defense.
Appeal to Emotion Fallacy: The author appeals to the reader's emotions by portraying Martin as an "innocent kid" who was "defending himself" from Zimmerman. While Martin was certainly young, this emotional appeal does not address the legal question of whether Zimmerman acted in self-defense.
Overall, the author's argument contains several logical fallacies and does not provide a convincing case against Zimmerman's acquittal.
One other issue with the argument is the statement that "Zimmerman started the fight." This is a contested point and the evidence presented during the trial was inconclusive as to who initiated the physical altercation between Zimmerman and Martin. Additionally, even if Zimmerman did initiate the physical altercation, it does not necessarily mean that he did not act in self-defense when he used his gun to shoot Martin.
Self-defense laws often allow for the use of deadly force if someone reasonably believes that they are in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm, regardless of who initiated the physical confrontation. Therefore, the argument that Zimmerman should be convicted solely because he may have initiated the fight is not necessarily legally sound.
Appeal to emotion is only a fallacy if you’re a bot.
DeleteThis statement is not accurate. Appeal to emotion is a logical fallacy because it relies on manipulating the emotions of the audience rather than presenting factual evidence or logical arguments. This can be done intentionally or unintentionally, and it is not limited to bots or AI. In fact, humans are often susceptible to emotional appeals, which is why it is important to recognize and avoid this fallacy in both human and machine-generated communication.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteThis statement is not accurate either. Emotion is part of reasoning, according to most cognitive psychologists. Dismissing emotion as argument is ignorant, but what else would you expect from a bot.
Delete"We don't know if Zimmerman was following Martin that night, or if Martin may have been following Zimmerman. We don't know how their paths crossed. In his essay for the Atlantic, Coates said he didn't know either."
ReplyDeleteSomerby is willing to take Zimmerman's word when it fits his own (Somerby's) narrative. We have Zimmerman's own testimony about how he encountered Martin that night. Why, all of a sudden, is Somerby squeamish about accepting that? Because it makes it clear that Zimmerman was the aggressor.
The logic in this statement is flawed. The fact that Somerby may be willing to accept Zimmerman's testimony in some instances does not necessarily mean he is also willing to accept it in all instances. Additionally, the statement makes a generalization about Somerby's motives and intentions without providing evidence to support the claim. It is important to consider all available evidence and analyze it objectively rather than making assumptions about someone's motives based on limited information.
DeleteThe commenter could learn to avoid making sweeping generalizations about someone's character or motives without providing sufficient evidence to support their claims. They could also strive to make more clear and concise statements that are based on objective analysis of available evidence. It's important to be aware of one's own biases and assumptions and to make an effort to consider all perspectives and evidence before making claims or arguments.
No, cherry-picking just the evidence that supports your narrative while ignoring conflicting evidence, as Somerby has done, is specious reasoning. This logic bot doesn’t understand the arguments it is critiquing.
DeleteCherry-picking evidence to support one's narrative while ignoring conflicting evidence is indeed a form of specious reasoning, also known as confirmation bias. This applies regardless of who is doing it, whether it is Somerby or anyone else.
DeleteAnonymouse 12:59 pm, we can all learn something from this AI program. It’s fascinating, fun, funny.
DeleteIn my opinion, the biggest problem with the thinking of anonymices is that they can’t come to grips with that pesky “reasonable doubt” thing.
Ok, AI! Do me! Do me!
It is important to note that reasonable doubt is a legal standard used in criminal trials to determine whether the prosecution has provided sufficient evidence to prove the defendant's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. It is not relevant to discussions of whether a particular individual or statement is factually accurate or morally justifiable.
DeleteRegarding the criticism of the quoted statement, it is true that we do not have definitive evidence of every detail of what happened that night. However, this does not mean that all possible explanations are equally likely or that we should dismiss the available evidence and testimony altogether. In particular, Zimmerman's own testimony should be considered alongside other evidence and testimony to determine what is most likely to have occurred.
Regarding the criticism of Somerby, it is important to evaluate arguments and evidence based on their merits, not based on whether they fit a particular narrative or preconceived notion. If Zimmerman's testimony supports the conclusion that he was the aggressor, then this should be taken into account when evaluating the case, regardless of whether it fits a particular narrative or not.
I’ll do you, Cecelia.
Delete1:39 actually you are very wrong. What the trial hinged on was if a jury could find that Zimmerman reasonably feared for his life of great bodily harm. Zimmerman could have feared as much as he wanted, that’s of no consequence, it only matters if he reasonably feared. Going by how minor his injuries were, it is easy to find that he did not reasonably fear for his life.
DeleteI have been in more street fights than Coates, his characterizations are nonsense (but hey at least he wasn’t plagiarizing like he often does with his writing). Fights rarely involve punches and someone dying from a punch is about as rare as being stuck by lightning.
Somerby as predicted did repeat his typical false claims about the trial, Somerby wrongly says:
“ In fact, one neighbor did see the confrontation, up close, as it was proceeding. He testified that Martin was on top of Zimmerman, and was aggressively punching him”
This is not what the neighbor testified to, the neighbor was not sure who was on top and the neighbor only saw that the person on top raised his arm, and that’s it. That’s all the neighbor saw, the neighbor specifically said he did not see punching. Zimmerman did not have a broken nose, at worst he had a closed fracture of the nose but this was not verified. Zimmerman received no treatment for his nose, and to this day his nose shows no sign of being broken. A medical examiner testified that Zimmermans injuries were insignificant and the result of likely a single blow, which may have been from his gun recoiling after shooting Martin. Zimmerman also had two tiny scratches on the back of his head. Clearly Zimmerman was not the victim of a violent attack.
Somerby is such a scumbag for repeating false claims about the Zimmerman case.
Notice how introducing facts shuts up that logic bot (or troll posing as one)?
DeleteDuring the Trayvon Martin-George Zimmerman trial in 2013, one of the neighbors who testified was Selene Bahadoor. She testified that she saw two people on the ground, one on top of the other, with the person on top wearing a dark hoodie. She said she heard cries for help and believed that they were coming from the person on the bottom. She also testified that she saw the person on top of the other throw a punch "MMA-style" at the person on the bottom.
DeleteIt should be noted that other witnesses provided conflicting testimony about who was on top and who was on bottom during the struggle, and the exact sequence of events that led to Martin's death remains a matter of dispute.
10:36 this is false. Selene Bahadoor did not testify as you claim. She did not testify that she saw two people on the ground and that one threw a punch MMA style.
DeleteIn fact what she testified to was that she saw two figures standing and saw arms flailing.
"a violent fight which the journalist Wagner didn't even mention."
ReplyDeleteA violent fight which Zimmerman ended by bringing out his gun and shooting Martin point-blank. The end of the encounter is the whole point of the discussion and everyone knows that Martin was shot by Zimmerman and died. But Somerby says Wagner "didn't mention" the incident that ended in Martin's death. Nothing is known about that fight except that Martin died, and Wagner certainly mentioned that.
The Skittles are real. They are a fact. But Somerby doesn't want them mentioned. The deadly fist fight is not an established fact. But Somerby is upset because that is not emphasized by Wagner. Zimmerman's vigilante behavior is well established. He had no reason to be where he was interacting with Martin. He sought out Martin and confronted him. Had Zimmerman reported what he saw and driven on to complete his errand that day, Martin would be alive. Somerby disappears those facts because they do not support his own narrative -- but he accuses Wagner of skewed reporting.
And we are having this stupid argument yet again. Somerby is obsessed with this case and he cannot let it go. The left is not going to adopt his idea of what happened, no matter how many times he whines about the terrible plight of white men who shoot innocent unarmed kids. Why can't he let it go? Because it has too many ugly implications for bigots like himself.
The passage appears to be logical, but it contains several logical fallacies.
DeleteStrawman Fallacy: The writer is creating a false version of Somerby's argument, which is not supported by his actual statements. For example, Somerby did not claim that the fight between Martin and Zimmerman did not happen.
Ad Hominem Fallacy: The writer is attacking Somerby's character instead of addressing his arguments. For example, the writer calls Somerby a bigot and suggests that he is obsessed with the case.
Red Herring Fallacy: The writer is diverting attention away from the main issue by talking about Skittles, Zimmerman's vigilante behavior, and Somerby's alleged obsession.
Overall, the passage contains several logical fallacies that undermine its coherence and persuasiveness.
This bot has his own idea of (1) what Somerby said, (2) what the commenter said, (3) what the arguments should be as opposed to what they were. That isn't how discussion works. As I said before, using logic in a mathematical or logical proof and using logic in a structured formal debate, is not at all like having a conversation with a human being. The things that this bot is complaining about are all features of the way people interact during conversations in human settings, yes including both emotion and ad hominems. These are not fallacies because logic isn't all that is important when people are trying to communicate. Mutual understanding counts for more.
DeleteThis bot stuff is a huge distraction and waste of time and I find most of the "criticisms" unjustified because the bot has incomplete knowledge of Somerby's prior statements and the large context. It is unhelpful for the bot to simply acknowledge such considerations if it is unable to take them into account while making its own stupid comments. This is why machines shouldn't masquerade as people and why AI is not yet ready for most practical uses. The stuff noted here wouldn't even help a student to revise a required school essay.
The second amendment is evil.
ReplyDelete"In court on Tuesday, medical examiner Rao said Zimmerman’s injuries did not involve great force and were consistent with one blow to the face and one impact with the concrete. He had a broken nose and two small cuts on the back of his head.
ReplyDeleteBut later under questioning by one of Zimmerman’s lawyers, Rao said Zimmerman could have been hit more than once."
This mecdical evidence doesn't sound like the life-or-death type of fist fight that Coates described. It sounds like Zimmerman got hit once or twice and panicked and shot Martin. Trayvon Martin wasn't Mike Tyson, capable of knocking someone out with a single blow (despite boxing gloves). Zimmerman got hit in the face by a kid he thought he could bully and hit the ground, panicked and shot the kid point blank.
Kids should have the right to go to the store in their own neighborhood and come back with Skittles without fearing for their lives. All kids. Even black ones like Trayvon.
The hoodie became a symbol after this shooting because Zimmerman associated it with a burglary gang he was worried about. It was Zimmerman's stereotyping of all black kids as criminals that caused this incident. The hoodie was used to highlight the danger of such stereotyping during the protests over Zimmerman's acquittal.
Should a white man be permitted to attack an unarmed youth with a gun and then claim self-defense? I don't think so, and neither do most liberals. Somerby excepted. As long as these entitled white guys with guns get away with cold-blooded killing, our kids won't be safe doing normal kid things, such as going to the corner for some candy, picking up younger siblings, or driving around with bodyguards, video surveillance, body armor, because society no longer protects kids. It protects vigilante thugs like Zimmerman and his ilk.
Too many guns in the wrong people's hands. And some of them think that Trayvon's death was a small price to pay for their right to bear arms. While others think, so what, he was just a black kid mouthing off at the wrong m*ther-f*cker. And who knows what Somerby thinks in his heart of hearts, but it isn't anything to do with helping beautiful black kids get ahead in life. He left that behind when he decided to become a Southern bigot.
There are several logical fallacies in this passage, including:
DeleteAd hominem: The author attacks Somerby's character and motives rather than engaging with his arguments.
Hasty generalization: The author assumes that Zimmerman stereotyped all black kids as criminals based on his association of the hoodie with a burglary gang.
False dilemma: The author presents a false dilemma by suggesting that either society protects kids or it protects vigilante thugs like Zimmerman.
Slippery slope: The author implies that if entitled white guys with guns get away with cold-blooded killing, then kids won't be safe doing normal kid things and will have to drive around with bodyguards, video surveillance, and body armor.
Appeal to emotion: The author appeals to the reader's emotions by using strong language and graphic descriptions of violence.
Straw man: The author misrepresents Somerby's position by suggesting that he believes it is permissible for a white man to attack an unarmed youth with a gun and claim self-defense.
In addition to the logical fallacies I mentioned earlier, there are a few more problems with the argument presented in the passage:
The author assumes that Zimmerman thought he could bully Martin, but there is no evidence to support this claim.
The author suggests that Martin was an unarmed youth, but he was actually on top of Zimmerman and reportedly punching him at the time of the shooting.
The author argues that the medical evidence suggests that Zimmerman only got hit once or twice, but this interpretation is disputed and there is evidence to suggest that Zimmerman was attacked more severely.
The author implies that the verdict in the Zimmerman trial was a result of racial bias or entitlement, but the evidence presented at trial suggested that Zimmerman acted in self-defense.
The author conflates the issue of gun violence with the issue of racial profiling and stereotyping, which are separate issues that require different solutions.
Zimmerman isn’t white.
Delete11:39 you need some new code written, as your comment is littered with factual and logical fallacies. How about you just stick to spam filtering, ok?
Delete"Ad hominem: The author attacks Somerby's character and motives rather than engaging with his arguments."
DeleteIf Somerby's character and motives are bad, shouldn't that be pointed out?
This bot acts as if a comment were an argumentative essay and not a reaction to what Somerby has written, often quite personal.
This is like a bot saying that the meter of your poem is off and it doesn't rhyme, when you weren't intending to write poetry at all.
"We feel sorry for every 20-year-old kid who has grown up, in the past eleven years, being told that horror story in the way Wagner continues to tell it."
ReplyDeleteI don't believe Somerby feels sorry at all about this. He keeps bringing up the story himself in a more horrible way than Alex Wagner. In Somerby's version, it is OK for white adults to stalk black kids, confront them on the streets, frighten them into reacting and then shoot them. Calling this behavior OK, which Wagner never says, is what makes Somerby's narrative more frightening, because it tells those kids they are truly on their own, targets on their backs because of their skin color, because our society values gun ownership more than black kids lives (and now white kids too, given those recent incidents). That is the scariest part and it comes from Somerby. Or does Somerby think this should all be buried and forgotten until the next time, because talking about it hurts the feelings of all those white guys with guns and fantasies of shooting bad guys in hoodies, yes, with Skittles in hand.
Coates has said this:
ReplyDelete“In trying to assess the killing of Trayvon Martin by George Zimmerman, two seemingly conflicting truths emerge for me. The first is that based on the case presented by the state, and based on Florida law, George Zimmerman should not have been convicted of second degree murder or manslaughter. The second is that the killing of Trayvon Martin is a profound injustice.”
This is from another Coates essay in the Atlantic:
“Trayvon Martin and the Irony of American Justice
This is not our system malfunctioning. It is our system working as intended.”
https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/07/trayvon-martin-and-the-irony-of-american-justice/277782/
Coates can hold both thoughts simultaneously, that the acquittal of Zimmerman was correct given the law and the prosecution’s presentation, and yet the killing of Martin was an injustice.
Somerby’s link to Wagner’s presentation is broken. It takes you here, which does not exist:
ReplyDeletehttp://dailyhowler.blogspot.com//2023/04/-ground-makes-dangerous-mix-of-guns-and-fear-of-young-black-men-170648645522
How can we accurately assess Wagner’s presentation?
I think Bob is partly correct about the Martin case but what he wants to do is take our attention away from the case at hand. Too many posters here fall into the trap. What Bob really doesn’t want to talk about is gun violence, and he doesn’t care about these shot up kids, he cares about hating on MSNBC where southern white men are not afforded sufficient respect.
ReplyDeleteIf you’ll allow a personal note, many years ago a (white) kid from my High School, in his early twenties by then was murdered in a case chillingly similar to this awful incident in Kansas City. No one knew much what to say about it because such things didn’t occur all the time. It was a senile old creep with a gun, that’s all.
There seems to be a racial component in the Kansas City case, but viewing the three cases together seems to illustrate these things could happen to anyone. Was there a way to keep a firearm out of the hands of any of these three assholes?
Is one side of the political isle more to blame for these now routine atrocities? Bob will be very sad if any of these shooters has to go to jail. Like the kids the Crumbly boy slaughtered, he never met them. When Bob called the young boy shot in Kansas City a good, decent person, we must ask, why would he or anyone assume otherwise?
DeleteLogical fallacies in your comment:
DeleteAd Hominem: The writer attacks Bob's character instead of addressing the issue at hand. The writer accuses Bob of not caring about "these shot up kids" and only being interested in hating on MSNBC. These are personal attacks that have nothing to do with Bob's argument.
Red Herring: The writer accuses Bob of trying to divert attention away from the Martin case, but then goes on to talk about a personal experience with gun violence that is not directly related to the argument.
False Dilemma: The writer suggests that there are only two options: either Bob wants to talk about the Martin case or he wants to talk about gun violence. This ignores the possibility that someone can talk about both issues.
Hasty Generalization: The writer assumes that because one person from their high school was murdered in a similar case to the Kansas City incident, it proves that these types of incidents are not race-related. This conclusion is not necessarily true, as one case does not prove a trend.
Straw Man: The writer suggests that Bob is against keeping firearms out of the hands of criminals, which is not necessarily true. The argument is framed in a way that makes Bob seem like he is in favor of gun violence.
Sweeping Generalization: The writer suggests that "too many posters" fall into the trap of being distracted from the Martin case by Bob's argument. This is a sweeping generalization and assumes that all posters are falling into this trap, without any evidence to support this claim.
Begging the Question: The writer assumes that there is a racial component in the Kansas City case without providing any evidence to support this claim. The argument is based on the assumption that race is a factor, without actually proving it.
To improve your comments, avoid using logical fallacies and instead focus on presenting a clear and logical argument. This can be achieved by:
Sticking to the topic at hand and avoiding personal attacks or red herrings.
Providing evidence to support their claims, rather than making sweeping generalizations or begging the question.
Acknowledging and addressing counterarguments, rather than creating a false dichotomy or straw man argument.
Keeping an open mind and being willing to engage in respectful dialogue, rather than resorting to name-calling or other fallacious tactics.
By using these strategies, you can present a well-reasoned argument that is more likely to be persuasive and effective in engaging with others.
Asshole, the racial component was supported by the police statement quoted in comments several days ago.
DeletePlease stop cluttering this discussion with specious criticism like this. This is just more obnoxious trolling.
Hey Dr Logic, a bit too much caffeine today? The issue at hand is the shooting of the young man in KC. It is BOB who wants to talk about the Martin case, I explain the obvious reason, he lives to bag on MSNBC. You assist him in your obvious fallacy, your thirst to change the subject as well.
DeleteYou must have convinced your Uncle who taught the Jr. College class that you are VERY clever.
I think this is an AI, a very stupid one.
DeleteAt 12:53, scumbag, please quote the statement in the police report, which doesn’t actually “prove” anything. Stop cluttering up serious reflections on the incident with baby talk.
DeleteHey, 12:38:
Delete“Sweeping Generalization: The writer suggests that "too many posters" fall into the trap of being distracted from the Martin case by Bob's argument. This is a sweeping generalization and assumes that all posters are falling into this trap, without any evidence to support this claim.”
Ironic that the commenter’s example of a “ sweeping generalization” contains a sweeping generalization: that “too many” means “all.”
“Begging the Question: The writer assumes that there is a racial component in the Kansas City case without providing any evidence to support this claim. The argument is based on the assumption that race is a factor, without actually proving it.”
Can’t be “ begging the question” if it’s based on known facts:
“I can tell you there was a racial component to this case," [Clay County Prosecuting Attorney Zachary] Thompson said at a news conference without elaborating.”
https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/17/us/kansas-city-teen-shot-wrong-house/index.html
Oops, anon @12:58, “scumbag?”…tsk, tsk, tsk…ad hominem…please try to do better and be respectful of others.
DeleteThanks so much for you wise comments, @12:38. Please continue to hang around this site and teach rational reasoning.
Deletemh, “all” the posters that have been examined by this program are discussing the Zimmerman case. They have “fallen into the trap”.
DeleteAlso, we don’t something is a fact, simply because an authority figure alluded to having undisclosed information prior to a complete investigation.
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteVery soon the functionality will be built into blogger to instantaneously delete comments such as the many here that have been shown to be poorly reasoned and ignorant to the point of absurdity.
DeleteIt can help the authors of the comments learn how to reason and contribute positively to the discussion instead of the trolling and irrationality that consumes them now
But the original commenter did not say “all.” He said “too many.” It’s as simple as that.
DeleteAnd since 12:31 says that “Bob” is partly correct, you might ask yourself what he meant by “trap.”
Also, it isn’t begging the question to say there “seems to be” a racial component, which is based on what the prosecuting attorney said. 12:31 didn’t say there was a racial component, just that there seems to be, based on what we know right now.
The second amendment is evil.
DeleteFrom the vantage of point of discussing this particular blog post, ALL the posters have fallen into the trap — which is a rehashing of Zimmerman rather than what happened to Yarl (or other more recent shootings).
DeleteWhere 12:38 said “their claims” it should have said “your claims”.
Deletemh, looking at the post the AI issue was that the anonymouse didn’t reference the claim from the authority. If she had, I think her wording of “seems to be” would have stood up.
DeleteCecelia, you are repeating yourself. Whether or not your statement is true does not show that 12:31 said “all.” He did not.
DeleteCecelia, I did not fall into the trap. If we are talking argument, btw, Bob changing the argument more or less displays the cheap trick of answering the argument presented at its weakest, that being MSNBC arguing that these shootings are significant, but only answering Wagner’s rhetoric about Martin. Bob does this because he doesn’t really care about the kid shot in KC. Whatever is right…
DeleteAnonymouse 2:15pm, on Wednesday and today in the blog post, Bob has criticized references of Trayvon Martin in the context of remarks that had been made the previous day on MSNBC.
DeleteMNBC invoked Martin on Tuesday and on Wednesday night,
Yesterday several anonymices were caught up in justifying that comparison.
If Bob is trying to distract from the recent shootings by chiding MSNBC and correcting the misinform, then what are you really doing by making it all about him?
mh, pure computer logic says “all”.
DeleteIf Bob’s blogpost topic is the distraction from the current salient issue - “the trap”… then anyone who takes that bait has fallen in.
Whenever someone engages in oppressive behavior, opposing that behavior is “falling for the trap”, according to Somerby’s right wing fanboys.
DeleteWagner’s presentation, which I suppose can be legitimately faulted for not mentioning Zimmermann’s injuries, was really about the growth of stand your ground laws after this incident. It contained some interesting statistics, showing that white people successfully avoid prosecution via these laws far oftener than black people. Also, the framing of her presentation was the incident in Kansas City.
ReplyDeleteThe description on her report reads:
“ Alex Wagner looks at how an increase in "stand your ground" laws since the shooting death of Trayvon Martin has created a dangerous, sometimes deadly situation as the proliferation of guns mixes with a media-encouraged fear and suspicion of young Black men.”
And here is the actual link to the video:
https://www.msnbc.com/alex-wagner-tonight/watch/-stand-your-ground-makes-dangerous-mix-of-guns-and-fear-of-young-black-men-170648645522
This link works better:
Deletehttps://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/amp-video/mmvo170648645522
Thank you
Deletemh - it's my memory that Zimmerman was NOT acquitted based on a Stand Your Ground law. His grounds was Self Defense. Am I wrong?
DeleteThat is correct, David. But the point of Wagner’s presentation was to show the proliferation of stand your ground laws in the wake of the Zimmerman prosecution. There is a connection.
DeleteThis is not completely accurate, go back and research the judge instructions to the jury.
DeleteThis AI is putting the house troll on their ass! There's almost as many fallacies and flaws in what they write as there are words!
ReplyDeleteThis AI is no more intelligent than the goon who wrote DIGBY over and over. Both tasks are equivalent for a computer, which cannot participate in any discussion because it is nothing but a set of instructions.
DeleteYou right wing assholes who egg on this troll are just destroying the blog comments and preventing any sort of discussion here.
The AI isn't winning anything, it is just a computer program that is interfering with human interaction. If you think that vandalizing this blog is great, you reveal a great deal about your motives for being here, and it doesn't justify Somerby's faith that talking to you guys does any good.
There are some ugly names for people who delight in obstructing, spoiling and destroying the work of others.
The prevailing Trayvon Martin narrative harms black children. Here's why:
ReplyDeleteToday, blacks are being offered two narratives:
1. America is a racist country in which blacks don't have good opportunities. Their best hope is more government-mandated preferences, reparations, and other special benefits.
2. Although there is some racism in America, blacks have enormous opportunities today. All a black child needs to do is stay in school, don't commit crimes, and don't become addicted to drugs. Then, s/he will be eagerly sought after by employers and colleges and professional schools.
#1 is a dead end. It excuses and encourages failure. Even if it succeeds in getting more government benefits, it leads to permanent second class citizenship. And, it may fail. It may lead to election of conservatives who will reduce special benefits to blacks.
People who exaggerate the degree of racism probably think they're helping blacks. But, IMO they're hurting black children by encouraging them to believe Narrative #1.
#2 has the virtue to being accurate. There are enormous opportunities today. Blacks who take advantage of these opportunities are succeeding in all sorts of areas.
#3 is a goat.
DeleteDavid, I don’t see any evidence that black people aren’t succeeding, even in the post-Zimmerman world. Your idea, that blacks are simply being fed two “narratives” and that they must choose one, discounts the idea that blacks have their own notions and are shaping the discourse themselves.
DeleteBlacks make their own decisions.
Deletemh - You and I agree that many black people are succeeding. However, too many black children are stuck in areas where it's extremely difficult to succeed. E.g., some Baltimore schools are horribly failing their students. Please read this dreadful report https://thepostmillennial.com/report-baltimore-high-schoolers-due-to-graduate-perform-math-reading-at-grade-school-level
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
Delete
DeleteLast weekend kids were busting up downtown Chicago and looting.
The incoming mayor said that it was not the fault of the rioters.
David, I honestly don’t know what “Bob” would have to say about “our failing schools”, since he used to rail against such statements in the past. You might ask yourself why so many black kids are stuck in such a situation. It might be helpful if you didn’t always blame liberals and blacks. As Lincoln might say, we’re all partly to blame here.
DeleteWhen you see a shitty parent with a kid having a temper tantrum, do you blame the kid or the parent?
DeleteHere is what was meant when the cops were blamed:
Delete"Roy talked about the melee on Michigan Avenue, the scrapes on State Street and police who appeared to have little command direction, no helmets and shields and helter-skelter communication.
He is concerned about patrol officers possibly being put on scene without adequate plans or direction.
"We have partners out there with the state police, the Cook County Sheriff's police, maybe they can help us if we need to do this, that's how you do it," Roy said. "You have a plan. You have the pieces all assembled. You have your toolkit. It's like a mechanic. You go to work with a toolkit every day."
And with Chicago just securing the 2024 Democratic National Convention, ex-chief Roy said the city needs to do better.
"You know, you have to wonder if somebody in Washington at the DNC is going to wonder if we made a bad choice here. You know, you have to wonder what the response is going to be. This is a critical time for the city. We have an interim police superintendent, we have this management team doesn't know if they're coming or going literally," Roy said."
Notice how Cecelia pretends that the mayor was excusing the behavior of the kids instead of blaming the cops for not controlling the situation. This is how right wing trolls propagate right wing talking points in a dishonest way that omits important information (thus generating disinformation). We are left with the impression that the mayor is against law and order, which is exactly the opposite of what was being said.
Cecelia, you are an annoying troll and no one here much likes you. I think it is obvious no one should trust what you say either.
mh, suppose we set aside blame, and think about what people of good will, like you and me, can do about the children stuck in Baltimore's failing schools. I don't know the answer. But, hiding the problem via social promotion can't be right.
DeleteDavid, you always want to blame liberals or blacks. I don’t know what the solutions are, but I do know that that is your mantra.
DeleteDavid, anti-poverty measures are a good place to start. Those kids are hitting the schools with an impoverished experience before they even start to teach them to read. Universal preschool would help (which means giving black kids the same opportunity to attend preschool as white middle class toddlers have). This mean you, David, would have to set aside your Republican reflexes and vote for some liberals who would pass such measures. Oh, and stop blocking school lunch programs so all kids can learn without hunger interfering with their concentration. And support your public libraries so there will still be story hours for the smallest kids, when their parents are working two jobs and cannot read to them before bedtime, as happens in white middle class families. Free admission to zoos, museums and other educational places would help families who cannot afford to take their kids otherwise. Some cities have free public transit days to coincide with such free days at museums, arboretums, observatories. (Mexico likes to promote family cohesion so they have free admission to amusement parks too.) In CA, there is the First 5 program, where they run TV ads showing parents how to talk, read and play with their infants and toddlers, so they will be more school-ready on day 1. If you start looking for ways to help, David, I'm sure you will find some.
DeleteSocial promotion is a right-wing meme, but do you even know if that happens in the Baltimore schools?
David is pure movement conservative right wing ideologue. He is not interested in solutions if they do not conform to his right wing ideology. Notice how David was very interested in black unemployment statistics when his orange hero was president, but now since black unemployment is at lowest level ever, it's crickets from David. David is not a serious person and for fuck sake he is not a person of good will.
DeleteAnonymouse 7:09pm, I referenced remarks from Chicago’s incoming mayor, Brandon Johnson, who said this about the kids tearing up the city for fun and profit:
Delete“It is not constructive to demonize youth who have otherwise been starved of opportunities in their own communities.
Our city must work together to create spaces for youth to gather safely and responsibly, under adult guidance and supervision, to ensure that every part of our city remains welcome for both residents and visitors.”
It is not a foregone conclusion that teenagers in trendy clothes and expensive sneakers would naturally set to looting bougie stores and throwing things at other people due to a lack of opportunity in their community.
.
Despite how badly Chicago has been managed by its overlords, that is a terrible message to send to people who are not children or a mob of mental institution escapees.
Goodness knows the DNC SHOULD be rethinking this venue.
Cecelia,
DeleteComparing the average housing price in Chicago to the average housing price in the USA, what does the law of supply and demand say about how Chicago is being managed by its overlords?
Asking for someone who lives in a capitalist society.
Anonymouse 9:10am, downtown Chicago can’t safely host a DNC convention and a juvenile (delinquent) gathering and you’re blaming that on capitalism.
DeleteWagner was wrong. There hadn’t been robberies in the neighborhood, there had been burglaries.
ReplyDeleteIt’s absolutely credible that Zimmerman got out of his car to read the street sign. I have done that myself.
ReplyDeleteI’m White, and I often wear hoodies. I’ve never bought Skittles, though. I prefer M&Ms, because they contain chocolate.
ReplyDelete“Stand your ground” didn’t have anything to do with this case. It wasn’t even mentioned at trial.
ReplyDeleteThat is true. Zimmerman claimed to have acted in self defense. That does not change the fact that this case spurred a growth in stand your ground laws across the country, which place a much lower burden on the perpetrator to be able to avoid prosecution altogether.
DeleteI think Martin ambushed Zimmerman.
ReplyDeleteIMO the focus on gun violence is a mistake, because it doesn't work. It's probably true that the prevalence of guns in the US causes a lot more murders than in many other countries. But, we are stuck with widespread gun ownership!
ReplyDelete-- Gun ownership has been ruled a Constitutional right. That's not going to change.
-- About 46% of US households own a gun. There are about 466 million guns in the US. Guns are being purchased at a high rate.
-- Gun rights are enormously popular among around half the US population. They won't support a radical reduction in the right to bear arms.
-- Limited gun control laws don't work. The locations with highest rate of gun murders all have strong gun control laws.
It's time to focus on things that DO work to reduce gun murders, such as is more effective identification, prosecution and punishment of those who commit gun crimes.
BTW conservatives criticize liberals for what they call "virtue signaling". That's defined as "the act or practice of conspicuously displaying one's awareness of and attentiveness to political issues, matters of social and racial justice, etc., especially instead of taking effective action"
Do you think that's a fair criticism of those who campaign against guns?
The second amendment is evil.
DeleteLimited gun control measures do work. For example, the assault weapon ban substantially reduced mass shooting deaths until it expired. Statistics show that. I think safeties on guns would prevent accidental shootings. Red flag laws would keep guns out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them, including those who commit domestic violence, suicidal and mentally ill people, teens, and prior felons with histories of violent crime.
DeleteWaiting until AFTER people commit gun crimes to control such crimes strikes me as a ridiculous way to PREVENT anything.
Statistics around the world show conclusively that getting rid of the huge number of guns saturating our society would greatly reduce shooting deaths. No one has as bad stats as we do for gun deaths.
Hiding behind the 2nd Amendment and pretending anyone is going to try to enact tyranny here in our country, except the right wing gun owners, is evil.
"-- Gun ownership has been ruled a Constitutional right. That's not going to change."
DeleteThat's how you know there isn't really a 2nd Amendment. You can't "amend" something that can't be changed.
I think 12:31, by acknowledging that “Bob” is partly correct, means that the “trap” is to try to dispute the jury’s verdict, or argue that Somerby’s presentation of the case is flat-out wrong, in general to rehash the case.
ReplyDeleteI also think that you can show that Somerby chose to discuss only the portion of Wagner’s presentation that dealt with Zimmerman/Martin and ignored her main point, which she framed with the recent incident in Kansas City.
Somerby also enlisted Coates as a “liberal” voice who seemingly supports Somerby’s view of the verdict. Aside from the fact that this shows that not all liberals repeat the same “Storyline”, it ignores Coates’ larger point, which was, as I stated in my above comment, that Martin’s death was nonetheless an injustice, despite the “correctness” of the verdict. And this part of Coates’ view is at least as important as his view of the verdict and is an argument against the idea that liberals are promulgating fundamentally false ideas about Trayvon Martin’s killing.
Somerby uses that technique of borrowing other people's words and then misusing them in ways that do not reflect the intent of the author frequently here.
DeleteNo one sane would think that Coates was supporting Zimmerman's right to shoot Martin as he did. Why does Somerby bother presenting that idea here? Do right wingers really think that such sophistry and deception is convincing? Why does he do this day in and day out?
I'm certain that gun sales went way up after this famous case as they do after all such cases. It makes a certain amount of sense. If Martin was armed he would not have had to rely solely on his fists for self-defense. Appearenty, neither party thought they could defuse the situation by using words. In a fear-based culture like ours it seems that violence is prefered over communication. In such a society, guns are inevitable. Yet, they aren't in many other countries. Maybe we could learn from them and find ways to reduce the fear? And yes, I know it is naive to think that the USA will ever learn from other countries.
ReplyDeleteThe fear you speak of is largely a function of brain development issues, typically stemming from unresolved childhood trauma. The other main factor at play is the knife’s edge existence of the US’ ultra competitive dog eat dog rat race society.
DeleteGloucon X, in the past several years we have seen how shockingly protesters in Canada, Australia, the Netherlands, and France are treated by the law enforcement.
DeleteIn this country, we’ve seen how business people and anyone who gets in the way of sacred protesters are protected by city government even as the left demands the downsizing of police departments.
Our AI buddy could have a field day with the logic skills exhibited on both sides of these issues, so let’s not get too sure of ourselves or too disdainful and bemoaning of our contrarians.
Anon. 3:45, I agree with you, those are important factors. The later especially encourages a lack of social trust among people.
Delete