THURSDAY, OCTOBER 19, 2023
Vice Provost, heal thyself: Professor Emanuel was shocked, just shocked, by something that happened last week.
We refer to Ezekiel Emanuel, a good and decent person. According to the New York Times, he's also "a physician and the vice provost for global initiatives and a professor of medical ethics and health policy at the University of Pennsylvania."
Emanuel was shocked, just shocked, by something that happened last week. On Tuesday, he gave voice to his shock in an opinion column for the Times.
Judging from what he wrote for the Times, the professor was shocked to learn, for the very first time, that kids say the darndest things. Headline included, his column started like this:
The Moral Deficiencies of a Liberal Education
We have failed.
When a coalition of 34 student organizations at Harvard can say that they “hold the Israeli regime entirely responsible for all unfolding violence” and students at other elite universities blame Israel alone for the attack Hamas carried out on Israelis on Oct. 7 or even praise the massacre, something is deeply wrong at America’s colleges and universities.
Students spouting ideological catchphrases have revealed their moral obliviousness and the deficiency of their educations. But the deeper problem is not them. It is what they are being taught—or, more specifically, what they are not being taught.
Just for the record, we regard the quoted statement by the Harvard students as being substantially dumb.
As a general matter, we don't apply the term "stupid" to things people say. But except for that moral prohibition, we'd go ahead and say that the quoted statement tilted quite strongly that way.
That said, the statement was signed by a bunch of college students. College students say the dumbest and darndest things, and they always have.
Professor Emanuel didn't know this? Where has this university leader been?
As we've already noted, Professor Emanuel is a good, decent person. That said, it seems to us that his column arrived at the New York Times from the dark side of Neptune.
Where exactly has this guy been? Just to establish his perspective, he went on to offer this bit of self-flagellation:
Certainly, not all students wear these moral blinders. But the fact that many students do, and that they are at some of the nation’s leading colleges and universities, should be a cause for profound concern across higher education.
Those of us who are university leaders and faculty are at fault. We may graduate our students, confer degrees that certify their qualifications as the best and brightest. But we have clearly failed to educate them. We have failed to give them the ethical foundation and moral compass to recognize the basics of humanity.
Speaking as a "university leader," Emanual says the moral blindness of those college students is somehow his fault.
He mentions the faculty too. It's his fault, and the fault of his wider class.
That strikes us as a fairly dumb remark. As it turns out, it isn't just college students! Apparently, university leaders—even at "the nation's leading colleges and universities!"—will occasionally say the darndest things too!
As he continues, Emanuel says this: "The Hamas massacre is the easiest of moral cases." That, of course, is plainly true, depending on your wider moral perspective.
For today, let's set that question aside and turn to Emanuel' solution to the problem at hand. We refer to the moral blindness of those college students, a blindness which apparently isn't shared by their university leaders.
We agree! The statement by those Harvard students strikes us as basically dumb. But this strikes us as fairly dumb too—this attempt at a solution:
We in the academy need to look more deeply at how it is possible that so many undergraduates, graduate students, law students and faculty at our nation’s finest colleges and universities could have such moral blinders.
We need to ask ourselves: What is in our curriculums? What do we think it means to be well educated? What moral stands are we taking? The timidity of many university leaders in condemning the Hamas massacre and antisemitism more generally offers the wrong example. Leaders need to lead.
As a bioethicist, I support requiring students to take ethics classes. Some universities—mainly Catholic institutions, including Georgetown—still do. Having a two-course ethics requirement—one about general ethics and one about some specific area, such as military ethics, environmental and bioethics, ethics of technology, ethics of the market or political ethics—would be invaluable.
But ethics classes alone are insufficient to help students develop a clear moral compass so that they can rise above ideological catchphrases and wrestle intelligently with moral dilemmas.
As it turns out, Emanual isn't just a university leader; he's also a bioethicist. As such, he thinks students—mainly, those at "our nation's finest colleges"—should be required to take a couple of ethics classes—ethics classes designed by people of his own high caliber and of his own high class.
In Emanuel's view, this group has failed us up to now. It's now time for them to take over!
As he continues, Emanuel says the time has come to redesign college curriculums. What would be the purpose of that? Here's his simple statement:
There are many ways to construct a curriculum so we can certify graduates as “educated.”
He wants to be able to certify graduates as "educated!" That strikes us as a fairly dumb ambition. On occasion, bioethicists say the darndest things too!
We're going to walk today's discussion all the way back to 1965, to our own freshman year at a leading university. In that initial college year, we were exposed to what academic philosophy was secretly like. This happened in a one-semester class—Problems in Philosophy.
In a yearlong freshman seminar—Theory of Emotions—we were also exposed to what academic psychology was secretly like.
(Then too, there was Hum 5! Five hundred college freshmen and sophomores scribbling 500 sets of lecture notes. Did anyone ever read their lecture notes? If so, why?)
From that year forward, we've never really seen the day when Emanuel's class functioned with high distinction. In fairness, they have a very high self-regard. But they say and do the darndest things, and they generally stare off silently into the air when members of other ranking elites do so.
At this site, we've been writing about this cultural problem since 1998. We'll suggest that we've been writing about a type of intellectual blindness—a type of intellectual blindness which lurks in Emanuel's column.
Emanuel is a good, decent person. It seems to us that he has perhaps and possibly said an array of the arguably somewhat darndest things.
What in the world are we talking about? Tomorrow, we'll return to the narrower discussion we attempted at the start of this week.
Perhaps next week, we'll discuss what we saw in the course of that first freshman year. Students were already saying the darndest things, but so were "university leaders!"
Tomorrow: Pamela Paul's (perfectly decent) moral precepts
The Catholic Church has been the gold standard of ethics for two millennia.
ReplyDeleteThat's why we had the Reformation, I guess.
DeleteSomerby says kids say the darndest things. He asks "Where exactly has this guy [Emanual] been?"
ReplyDeleteBy Somerby's description:
"According to the New York Times, he's also "a physician and the vice provost for global initiatives and a professor of medical ethics and health policy at the University of Pennsylvania."
That means that he doesn't teach or interact much with undergrads. He may not teach many courses at all, given his administrative and medical duties. (A provost is an administrator.) But when he encounters students, they will be med students or grad students or at a minimum, seniors about to graduate. They will not be the much younger kids newly encountering the heady freedom of college.
Why do students say outrageous things? Because they are testing their voices and feeling their impact on the world, often for the first time. They do this in the safe, protected environment of a campus, testing out reactions to their statements in student organizations and in the discussion sections of their courses.
I consider the broader exposure of students to public retribution, like that encountered by the Harvard students who were doxed by political opponents, to be an abuse of those students for purposes that have nothing to do with their education. It is easy for older adults and activists to co-opt relatively naive students into political actions they may not fully understand or may come to later regret. That they come from Harvard seems to give such students added value as pawns of the political arm of Palestinian propagandizing and fund-raising in America.
Somerby shows no sign of understanding this. At least Professor Emanual does. But I doubt that his call for more ethics courses will remedy the situation. Look at all the philosophy courses Somerby took, his years of education in the classroom, and then listen to what Somerby himself has said about the crisis in Israel/Gaza. Is Somerby a moral paragon? Has he shown much understand of the ethics of what has been happening? I don't think so.
Today, Somerby appears to be gleefully bashing Emanual. Calling him good and decent but then reaming him for his concern for students, which name-calling him without evidence:
He calls Emanual's statement stupid without explanation: "As a general matter, we don't apply the term "stupid" to things people say. But except for that moral prohibition, we'd go ahead and say that the quoted statement tilted quite strongly that way. "
"That said, it seems to us that his column arrived at the New York Times from the dark side of Neptune." Somerby says this because Emanual supposedly didn't know that kids say the darndest things. Not because of any specific thing Somerby has isolated.
Emanual says he is responsible for student remarks, and Somerby objects: "That strikes us as a fairly dumb remark. As it turns out, it isn't just college students! " But Emanual isn't responsible for faculty or others outside Harvard.
Emanual suggests requiring students to take ethics courses. Somerby calls that "taking over" and says: "That strikes us as a fairly dumb ambition. On occasion, bioethicists say the darndest things too!"
But what would be the problem with it? Somerby doesn't say.
Guilty.
ReplyDeletehttps://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/4264570-sidney-powell-pleads-guilty-georgia-election-interference-case/
"From that year forward, we've never really seen the day when Emanuel's class functioned with high distinction. "
ReplyDeleteSomerby bashes his Harvard breadth requirements but he doesn't say what is wrong with any of those classes. He says he was exposed to what academic psychologist was "secretly" like.
As Somerby refers to Emanual's class, he is referring to his social class as a professor, not to any specific course that Somerby himself took with Emanual as professor. This is highly misleading. There is no chance on earth that Somerby ever took a class in bioethics -- he wouldn't have met the prerequisites.
I've taught Theory of Emotion myself, as a senior seminar, not to freshmen or sophomores. Somerby doesn't say what was wrong with anything he encountered in that course. Or maybe emotions are scary to him and he was not prepared to think about how they have been conceptualized over time, what neuroscience now says about how emotion works in our bodies and minds, or what current theories are hypothesizing? Somerby might have found it fascinating with a less defensive stance.
But in those final paragraphs we see that Somerby is not at all concerned about what Harvard students know about Israel. He is here today to belittle Emanual by calling him stupid, repeatedly. And he is here to belittle the courses that might have prepared him for advanced study in his upper division courses.
How do I know Somerby didn't learn from his courses? He says this:
"Then too, there was Hum 5! Five hundred college freshmen and sophomores scribbling 500 sets of lecture notes. Did anyone ever read their lecture notes? If so, why?"
Students make notes in order to remember what they have heard. It is a record of the class that is used later to study for exams. Those notes also contain names mentioned that should be looked up later, unfamiliar words to check on, an outine of the structure of the lecture in order to see how the ideas were organized. Students who review their notes often come to a better understanding of the material and they gain insights that hadn't occurred to them when listening and writing the notes during class. It is not possible to write down everything a professor says in class, so students learn how to focus on what is important. Some students outline their textbook chapters too, because the act of doing so fixes the information in their minds and helps them think about it in a structured way.
From Somerby's offhand remarks over the years, about courses he has flunked and had to repeat in Summer School, and his dismissive attitude toward college in general, it appears he didn't participate in a way that would have maximized the benefit of his mother's tuition dollars. He appears to be majorly passive in his ideas about learning, seems not to have gone to class regularly, and if he didn't make, much less study notes in his classes, how would he be able to do well on exams? He seems to have worked hard to obstruct his own learning. My theory is that he didn't want to go to Harvard in the first place, so he made damned sure he wouldn't learn much given that he was forced to go (by his mother). That is passive aggressive (as psychologist not-so-secretly say). It is in keeping with his style of writing here, which calls names without taking responsibility for saying anything concrete.
So why do you persist in reading Somerby?
DeleteWhy do you persist in asking?
DeleteAnd this is what you concern yourself with at this blog, George?
Deletemh - Yes, it is. There are some of us who value Somerby's opinions and would like to discuss them. But we can't, because this comment section is always highjacked by commenters who trash Somerby. And I really don't understand why.
DeleteThere's lots of stuff on the internet I don't like; I just don't read that stuff. But for some reason, people who don't like Somerby continue to read him just so they can trash him in comments. That seems weird to me.
Oh Dogface you poor thing. It’s not
Deletesurprising you don’t want to go to
places where people disagree with
you, you can’t respond to any
challenge to the Somerby line.
One of the interesting things about
Bob is that he once aspired to the
task he set for himself, then he
either gave up, lost interest, or
was bought off. How did this
happen? We get to be curious
too.
Why can't you and others discuss Somerby's ideas here? Start your own thread if you don't like what is being said by others.
DeleteIf you read the comments of those who dislike Somerby more carefully, with an open mind, you might get a glimmer of why some of us dislike him. All of us are explaining that in our comments.
How do the innumerable comments about Corby help you discuss Somerby better?
DeleteA perfectly weightless comment.
DeleteI'm sorry - I was referring to 2:42.
DeleteI'm sorry again - 3:27 is me.
DeleteI think they’re some sort of mafiaesque league of Bob’s old girlfriends.
Delete3:25 - I get why you dislike him - you folks repeat your arguments incessantly. What I don't get is why you continue to read him. For some unknown reason, nobody will answer that question.
DeleteCecelia - lol.
DeleteCecellia, Somerby has never been married. What makes you think he has girlfriends?
DeleteThe depth of your animus.
DeleteYou're on your game today, C.
DeleteDG, I’ve had a rough couple of days waiting for some medical news about my younger brother. All turned out fine. You are very intuitive.
DeleteCecelia, I’m glad to hear the good news.
DeleteI'm glad for your brother, and it sounds like quite a relief for you.
DeleteI read Bob to get the latest Right-wing meme.
DeleteIf I were a professor at Harvard, I would not accept any responsibility for Somerby's learning. Somerby denigrates Emanual for trying to be responsible for the ethics of vocal students. I think it is nice of Emanual to suggest that more ethics courses would fix moral gaps observed in the context of this crisis. But no one can force a student to learn. They have to want to do that, either to get good grades or because of genuine interest, or both. Somerby didn't want to learn, and just as he has made no progress with the patient instruction in comments here about understanding Einstein, no one could have forced him to learn a goddamned thing at Harvard, given his desire to float through, avoid the war, and later foist himself, unprepared, on inner city kids in Baltimore.
ReplyDeleteI would call this stupid on Somerby's part, but I think that word has already been overused.
I am not shocked that there are students like Somerby admits to being, because professors encountered them regularly. I am offended that Somerby dismisses the learning of others as if they are saps who should have quit rather than write notes in class, as he did. He would have done better to join the armed forces, where he might have had an attitude adjustment and learned how the world works. And yes, been shot at if he were unlucky. College is for students who want to be there, and at least those protesting students were expressing themselves and engaging in real life, no matter how misguided their activities. Even Hanoi Jane grew up and formed more mature views of world events. Somerby seems to have been absent that day.
So if you don't think Somerby is worth reading, why don't you go read something else? Why bother us every day with paragraph after paragraphs of your performative erudition?
DeleteBTW, I think your suggestion that Somerby would have been better served to have been shot in Vietnam rather than to have attended Harvard is repugnant.
DeleteWe’re all very glad that others who did not have Somerby’s options were forced to go in his place, dodging or taking bullets.
Deletemh - Actually, I don't think that's true. I think if you were a young man at that time, you would have been vigorously protesting the fact that others were forced to fight in an unjust war.
DeleteApologies. My irony didn’t come through, apparently. Of course I opposed that war, but too many had no choices. Somerby did. And I’m not sure he made enough of that chance. He doesn’t seem to have been one of those protesting the war. In fact, I have detected a kind of disdain coming from him directed at the protesters of that era.
DeleteMany, if not most young men were subject to the draft and anxiously waited for their numbers to be drawn in the lottery. Many enlisted in the national guard, if possible, or in the service branch of their preference, rather than waiting to be called up. Only a few were conscientious objectors (doing alternate service) or went to jail rather than service. Even fewer left the country. Somerby's proud statement that he became a teacher to dodge Vietnam is only possible because he was on a campus where many students were part of an anti-war movement. Off campus, Somerby's remark would have earned him scorn from those who considered service to be a duty that man fulfills regardless of sacrifice.
DeleteTo get a conscientious objector status, you had to have grown up in a religious family, be a member of a religion that abhorred war by creed, demonstrate that you had been anti-war before there was a draft, and engage in comparable full-time work in support of national efforts. My friend was the son of a minister, religious his whole life, and worked as a hospital orderly. Somerby's belief that he shouldn't have to go if he didn't want to, that others should go in his place, and his casual and negligent attitude toward his teaching are all offensive to me.
"Somerby's belief . . . that others should go in his place . . . are all offensive to me."
DeleteSomerby never said that others should go in his place. You just made that up.
What do you think happened if someone didn’t go? They sent someone else, the next guy on the list.
DeleteI guess that's your way of admitting that Somerby never said that others should go in his place.
DeleteWhat do anonymices find the most unforgivable- dodging Nam or a dearth of reverence towards the paragons of the academy?
DeleteMy guess is Bob Somerby.
Let me be more pointed. To my recollection, Somerby has never discussed this. But here's a possibility: He felt it was an unjust war and that NOBODY should be forced to fight it.
DeleteThat was certainly my view.
And it was not only my view. It was the prevailing view among students at Berkeley, where I was attending, and among students at Harvard, where Somerby was attending.
DeleteMIT was the big center of opposition to the war.
DeleteThe problem with your assumption about what Somerby believes is that young men in that time period held a wide variety of views. There were war protesters but there were also young men who believed it was their duty to support their country. So you need to have some clue to support your preferred idea about what Somerby thought, not just one out of many possibilities.
DeleteMy view at the time was that we should support our country in war, whether we believed the war was just or not. I thought it was foolish and dangerous to participate in anti-war marches, given the attacks on protesters happening at nearly every march.
We now have an all-volunteer military. We can do that because we are not involved in any major conflicts. It started out that way with the Vietnam War, but they went to a lottery as the fairest way of deciding who to draft. I agree with those who say that if someone is unwilling to fight for his country, then he is sponging off the sacrifices of others.
And then there is Trump, who considers those who fought to be saps and suckers, losers. You can bet that HE would never volunteer.
I find the idea of deciding whether a war is just or unjust to be problematic because none of us have full knowledge of the circumstances to make that decision. Further, there are people who think that anything whatsoever bad that happens to them is by definition, unjust.
I did not admire George W. Bush for dodging his service, nominal as it was. That would have disqualified him from being a viable candidate, in my view. That people decided certain wars were unjust and thus they didn't have to go fight them, let someone like George W. off the hook. Needless to say, other young men fought in his place. And perhaps because he didn't experience war personally, he was way over eager to start the Iraq war, causing the deaths of more young men and women. One reason for serving is to learn to value the gifts our nation provides to its citizens. Hard for me to believe any of today's Republicans appreciate that.
Clearly, if nobody were forced to fight wars, we would lose to those countries who do force their citizens to fight, including Israel which requires military service of both men and women.
"The problem with your assumption about what Somerby believes"
DeleteI don't have any assumption about what Somerby believes; as I said, I do not recall him ever discussing the subject.
It was you who assumed that he believed something - that others should go in his place. I merely pointed out that your assumption was unsupported, and that you should not condemn Somerby for something he never said.
You said Somerby felt it was an unjust war and that no one should be forced to fight it. To my knowledge, Somerby has not said that, so you are mindreading.
DeleteOthers DID go in Somerby’s place. That is a fact. They didn’t cancel the war because Somerby couldn’t attend.
Delete7:51 - Actually, I explicitly disclaimed any knowledge about how Somerby feels about this matter. Explicitly.
DeleteYou, on the other hand, made a specific assertion that you could not back up.
I was struck by Bill Maher’s reaction to this
ReplyDeleteon his show Friday night. He spanked the
students hard but also said he was glad
because the business community will take
notice of this and make sure the students
are blacklisted.
It strongly recalls the incident that
Provoked the famous “no sense of decency “
Speech from Joseph Welch.,Maher
Fashions himself as an enemy of all
Things “cancel culture”. But tailgunner
Bill has found a new way of seeing things.
Corby is adorable.
ReplyDeleteSomerby has come out strongly against rape and killing, but he hasn't said anything beyond that. I am eagerly waiting to hear his ideas about what comes next. He hasn't even said, clearly, that retaliation is wrong. Just that no women, children, elderly (and perhaps men) should die or be injured.
ReplyDeleteToday, he has a chance to examine the views of the students who Emanual is discussing. Instead, he tells us nothing about their views that are at the heart of Emanual's controversy. What did they say and why would it be wrong?
What about the morality of publishing their addresses so that they can receive death threats? Is it right to do that to young people just for being controversial?
Still, a lot of people will be googling
DeleteArt Linkletter.
Also try Allan Funt and Candid Camera.
DeleteCorby, too, is against rape and killing.
DeleteI hear that America’s got talent.
DeleteIt’s simple. We should all just get along.
DeleteYou first.
DeleteOff topic
ReplyDeleteI am disappointed but not surprised. The other day I commented here that I didn't want my tax dollars supporting both sides in the Gaza war. But, that's where we are. The US has long supported Israel's military. Yesterday, the President announced a large gift to the Palestinians. But, Hamas is in control, so some of that money will fund their military.
Every time some on either side is killed, we Americans will have financially support that death.
There is no reason to believe that the money allocated to Gaza for humanitarian aid will go to Hamas for weapons. For one thing, Egypt is opening its Rafah border so that refugees from Gaza can cross in order to receive humanitarian aid. Our concern should be for meeting the desperate needs of people first without worrying about much less likely possibilities. Biden is not handing money over directly to Hamas, which is what would be needed in order to use it for weapons.
Deletehttps://www.foxnews.com/world/biden-puts-condition-humanitarian-aid-gaza-israel-allows-egypt-deliver-supplies
David in Ca reminds us today
Deletethat the Trump phenomenon was
grounded in the hatred of the
traditional “respectable”
Republican Party. Certainly
the wrath of their petty hatred
is as boundless as any of the
planet’s hateful tribes who
have actually suffered.
Is it just me, or does it seem odd that commenters like Cecelia and David in cal, who have been reading this blog for years, and have heard Somerby’s exhortations to not “otherize” people, apparently believe it does not apply to themselves?
DeleteI don’t mind if you otherize me, mh.
DeleteCorby finds otherization counter-productive.
DeleteDoes one really need a Harvard ethics course to know that murdering babies is wrong? I don't think so.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Professor Emanuel that the students' position is a problem, but IMO the solution is not in high-falutin' ethics principles. The solution is to get rid of all the far-left faculty and far-left administrators. They're poisoning the students' minds.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nat_Turner%27s_slave_rebellion
DeleteWhat about that guy, Nat Turner?
"The rebellion did not discriminate by age or sex and the rebels killed White men, women, and children." "Historian Stephen B. Oates states that Turner called on his group to "kill all the white people"."
Would you care to analyze that story for me, please? Which side do you sympathize more with, if any?
Or this story:
DeleteThis is what the LORD says: "About midnight I will go throughout Egypt. Every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn of the slave girl, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well. There will be loud wailing throughout Egypt—worse than there has ever been or ever will be again."
— Exodus 11:4–6
No one sets out specifically to murder babies. They are collateral fatalities. The goal is to terrorize people. Killing babies seems well-suited to that purpose, once you have decided that terrorism is a valid means to an end.
DeleteYou seem to be thinking of students as passive vessels to be filled with propaganda and not active thinkers trying to construct their own meaning and values. I agree that there needs to be a counter-balance to pro-Palestinian propaganda on campuses, but I do not agree that classrooms cannot serve that function. Critical thinking is the antidote, not proselytizing for the anti-Palestian or pro-Israeli causes. College is where you go to learn critical thinking, but it is a work in progress throughout those 4 years and thereafter. And not all students will learn it (witness Somerby).
That's why I think Professor Emanual is on the right track. Students who think more clearly are less likely to get sucked into such causes (unless they are of Palestinian descent). Students have a strong sense of fairness and justice. Pointing out how that is being misused to convince them that Israel is killing Palestinian babies would help them learn to consider both sides of an issue, and the purposes of the person trying to convince them of something.
Replacing far-left professors with far-right professors is a hugely mistaken plan. Someone who thinks their job is to make students think certain things is not a teacher at all. Somerby should know that, given his 10-12 years in the classroom, but he doesn't show any sign of it.
You look back on the "Every firstborn son in Egypt will die" story every spring, right? It's a cause for celebration, is it not?
DeleteHere is a good book addressing the Nat Turner example:
Deletehttps://blogs.lse.ac.uk/lsereviewofbooks/2020/08/12/book-review-womens-war-fighting-and-surviving-the-american-civil-war-by-stephanie-mccurry/
Women fought in the civil war on both sides. The idea that they are innocent civilian non-combatants is simplistic and not true when you look at the historical record.
Should women then be exempted from violence? It may be personally dangerous to a soldier to ignore women. Further, the battlefield doesn't provide a lot of opportunity for sorting people out.
God is not a good model of desirable human behavior.
DeleteThe U.S. dropped to atomic bombs, one on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. This obliterated 2 cities and killed thousands and thousands of civilians, women, children, babies. Dropping the bombs is commonly defended - mainly that the alternative was a land invasion of japan where lots of U.S. soldiers would have been killed or wounded, along with lots of Japanese. I think this is a credible argument (but the opposite argument is also credible), though I'm not sure about the need for the second bomb, even if you justify the first one. The argument for Hamas would be that they are oppressed by Israel; thousands are in refugee camps; Israeli settlers have occupied the West bank in apparent violation of international law, are taking land from Arabs, settlers are attacking and killing Arabs in the West Bank, and that Hamas and the Palestinians have no recourse other than what they did because they are too weak to do anything else. I wouldn't justify their attack on Israel, it was brutal and barbaric, all it did was to lead to death and destruction. There was an op ed in yesterday's NYT that the Israeli government for years has essentially propped up Hamas, because it wants to weaken and undermine the Palestinian Authority. It's an intractable problem over there, and god knows what the repercussions will be; will there ever be a way out?
Delete“ The solution is to get rid of all the far-left faculty and far-left administrators.”
DeleteIt’s nice to finally hear David in cal’s real goal, shared by his Republican Party that was so opposed to “cancel culture.” Mark this day on your calendar.
David has always been a passive aggressive dick.
DeleteIf Hiroshima and Nagasaki are justified, then whatever Hamas has done and whatever Hamas may do in the future is an equivalent of jaywalking.
DeleteViolence is justified by survival. It is evoked by threat.
DeleteWe might broaden this discussion to ask whether terrorism as a tactic is ever justified. It obviously works in many cases. Those Arabs in Hamas are little different than he terrorists portrayed in Battle of Algiers (1966), a widely watched film about how Algeria got its freedom from France. It is a primer on terrorism and its justification. It inspired the Weatherman bombers, not just all the Middle Eastern terrorists since then, such as the IRA and the American right wing which bombed clinics full of pregnant women and children. This is not the first horrific attack. It is the latest of many, and I think we should discuss whether the ends justify the means for these sorts of extreme acts.
AC/MA -- the second bomb was dropped because Japan did not surrender after the first one.
DeleteAC/MA -- they used to say similar despairing things about Belfast during the Irish troubles. IRA was bombing public places in London, not just fighting in the streets of Belfast. Hillary Clinton was part of the delegation that negotiated a cease fire and ultimately a settlement of the conflict during Bill Clinton's administration. But there was not as much interference by surrounding nations in achieving that settlement. With Israel, there are surrounding Arab nations who have sworn to destroy Israel.
DeleteIt seems obvious that one purpose of this attack may have been to derail the negotiations between Saudi Arabia and Israel. Look at the timing. Ask yourself "who doesn't want a negotiated peace in Israel?"
anon 2:48, there's a lot of history on this subject, and I only have general knowledge. I seem to have read tat maybe the second bomb could have been avoided (assuming dropping nukes on densely populated cities was justified) - but I wouldn't doubt that you have more knowledge than me on the subject.
DeleteThere is another reason why Japan surrendered. The Japanese had been trying to get the Soviet Union to mediate between them and the US. Some even hoped the Soviets would support them against the US.
DeleteBut the Soviets had secretly promised the western allies that they would join the war against Japan three months after victory over Nazi Germany. After Hiroshima, the Soviet Union kept this promise and declared war.
The Japanese then saw that their situation was hopeless, and, after Nagasaki, they surrendered.
Well, Bob will be happy Sidney Powell
ReplyDeletewon’t be going to jail.
But he will be compelled to either attack her or label her a nutcase, since she is now cooperating with prosecutors.
Deletemh, you go over the top. there is no basis to suggest that TDH will attack Powell or "label her a nutcase" because she is "now cooperating with prosecutors." You're too obsessed, you've lost your grounding in reality. I'd add that TDH does have a propensity for opining his lack of enthusiasm for jailing people; a view that many here, including you, find inexcusable. But also, I get the idea, if he hasn't done so already, that TDH would characterize Powell as being mentally unsound (albeit not because she is cooperating with this prosecution), or some other characterization more euphemistic that calling her a "nutcase."
DeleteHere is the basis:
Delete1. Sidney Powell is female and Somerby likes to target women.
2. Somerby doesn't like to see anyone go to jail, so he will call her crazy and suggest we pity her.
3. Because she is cooperating with the prosecution, Trump will target her. That will make attacking Powell a right wing talking point, which Somerby will join in spreading, as he does.
4. Powell and Giuliani were instrumental in plotting to overturn the election and keep Trump in office. Trump will throw them both under the bus to save himself.
A generic dislike of imprisoning people cannot explain why Somerby applies that idea to some people (the Gov of VA and shooters like Kyle Rittenhouse) but not others, such as the various imprisoned African American men who couldn't afford good lawyers and were put in jail unjustly. For example, Somerby has many times said he thinks Trump should not go to jail, no matter what, but he has never once mentioned The Innocence Project or the ACLU's efforts on behalf of prisoners and prison reform.
Perhaps you could give us a cite to even one time that "Somerby . . . said he thinks Trump should not go to jail, no matter what."
DeleteAnd your accusation that "Somerby likes to target women" is ugly.
anon 3:16 [mh?] - your argument is devoid of factual or rational basis. We talk about Trump and the MAGAs being dishonest - but you certainly rival them. Meanwhile I'll wait patiently for TDH to join in with Trump in attacking Powell because of her upcoming cooperation with the prosecution. I'm sorry, but you seem to have a screw loose, nothing personal.
DeleteTrump has enough real flaws that one shouldn't need to make up imaginary ones in order to criticize him.
DeleteDavid in Cal,
DeleteExactly. Trump is a self-proclaimed sexual predator. You'd think that would be enough for some people to revile him.*
* Or at least not vote for him to be the President of the United States of America..
Dogface, you can use search as well as I can. I’m not going to cite examples only to have you say they prove nothing, which is what you do.
DeleteTrump really wasn't that bad of a president.
Delete7:47 - I’ll take that as your admission that you can’t back up the assertion that you made.
DeleteHe’s already declared her “disordered:”
Delete“How "disconnected from reality" are such disordered players as Rudy Giuliani, Sydney Powell and Michel Flynn?
http://dailyhowler.blogspot.com/2022/10/storyline-narratives-narrators-does.html?m=1
Can a disordered person plead guilty and cooperate with the prosecution? Inquiring minds want to know.
8:37,
DeleteHe both ignored and fought COVID, depending on whether you think it was nothing more than a bad cold, or whether it was a bioweapon developed in a Chinese laboratory.
mh - This cuts against your point. If Somerby has called Powell and the others “disordered” in the past, it wasn’t part of a stealth right-wing propaganda campaign.
DeleteSomerby is paid to write what he writes. That isn't a "steal right-wing propaganda campaign" but a funded effort by the right to win in 2024. It is the same thing that happened in 2020 (unsuccessfully) and in 2016. There is nothing "stealth" about trying to win a presidential election.
DeleteNotice that Harlan Crow just gave Cornell West the maximum contribution to his presidential campaign. Crow is the same right wing billionaire who has gifted Clarence Thomas in order to buy influence on the Supreme Court. That is what Republicans and especially right wingers do these days.
typo correction: steal = stealth
DeleteDogface, how does one back up a prediction when the future hasn't happened yet?
DeleteIf you want to see whether Somerby likes to target women, simply go back through his essays, day by day, and count how many times the attacked target is female compared to male, how many times a journalist or professor compared to some other occupation. I am not going to do this because it would take too much time and it isn't worth it to me to convince you of anything. But YOU can do it. Just take a sheet of paper for marking down results and start reading.
The rest of us have been following Somerby for years. This pattern is obvious to us, regardless of how we feel about what Somerby says here.
A Republican governor denonces a journalist for her national origin and refuses to respond to her story.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna121058
Rape and killing are less objectionable for those who believe in an afterlife.
ReplyDeleteSome afterlife believers expect eternal punishment for rape and killing, and are therefore deterred.
ReplyDeleteThere are some complications. How many afterlife believers would willingly die rather than give their money to an armed robber? And how can they be so sure which place they’re going to, heaven or hell? I often want to believe in heaven and hell, just to watch those who were sure of going to heaven end up in the other place.
DeleteNo human being anywhere would willingly die rather than give their money to an armed robber.
DeleteSomerby says: "OF HUMAN DISCERNMENT: Emanuel says his class has failed!"
ReplyDeleteEmanual didn't say his class had failed. He said there should be required ethics courses for students. He said the broader academic community had failed:
"The Moral Deficiencies of a Liberal Education
We have failed.
When a coalition of 34 student organizations at Harvard can say that they “hold the Israeli regime entirely responsible for all unfolding violence” and students at other elite universities blame Israel alone for the attack Hamas carried out on Israelis on Oct. 7 or even praise the massacre, something is deeply wrong at America’s colleges and universities."
Nowhere does he say that his class in bioethics failed. Those students didn't attend his classes.
Anonymouse 2:39pm, please tell me that you mean to be humorous, because this is truly fun and funny.
DeleteYou find it funny when Somerby attributes statements to people that they didn’t say? I find it careless at best and dishonest at worst.
DeleteI find it funny when someone takes a joke too seriously.
DeleteWith howlers like that, I can certainly see why Bob is a failed stand-up.
DeleteI wrote the comment and it was not a joke, just because Cecelia chooses to mock what I said.
DeleteAnonymouse 6:49pm, stop….you’re killing me…you’re a stitch!
DeleteDid you hear the one about the Republican voter who wasn't a bigot?
DeleteMe neither.
Corby is adorable.
Delete"God is not a good model of desirable human behavior."
ReplyDelete(I think this excellent comment deserves to be highlighted.)
What does it mean?
DeleteGod knows.
DeleteReally. What does it mean? Why are you flip about it if you think it deserves to be highlighted?
DeleteThat’s because He’s God.
ReplyDeleteOr maybe he’s just an SOB.
DeleteThat too.
DeleteCecilia - how do you know God is male. If anyone is non-binary, it's them, or it.
DeleteGod is Love
DeleteAC/MA, in the Torah, God is metaphorically addressed that way, so I do as well.
DeleteGod is beyond male and female.
AC/MC, sorry, for overlooking your post.
DeleteMale and female are the ultimate. No one is beyond them.
DeleteCats.
DeleteMy friend Gary Morson, a Russian literature Professor at Northwestern, has a relevant column in today's Wall Street Journal. It's behind a pay wall, so I'll provide a substantial quote
ReplyDeleteIf it seems that only uncivilized people could be such sadists, Dostoevsky cautions, know that the same thing could happen among civilized Europeans as well. “For the moment it is still against the law,” he writes, “but were it to depend on us, perhaps, nothing would stop us despite all our civilization.”
For the time being, “people are simply intimidated by some sort of habit,” Dostoevsky continues, but if some progressive expert were to come up with a theory showing that sometimes flaying skins can benefit the right cause because “the end justifies any means,” and if that expert were to express his view “using the appropriate style,” then, “believe me,” there would be respectable people among us “willing to carry out the idea.” Despite our sophistication and professions of compassion, “all that’s needed is for some new fad to appear and people would be instantly transformed.” ...
Dostoevsky adds that there is no need to resort to examples from the past because the same dynamic can occur in any place at any time that allows the dark side of human nature to show itself, clad in the language of whatever passes for progressive and enlightened. “Believe me,” Dostoevsky addresses his readers, “the most complete aberration of human hearts and minds is always possible.”
It is a terrible mistake to imagine that thuggish deeds are performed only by thugs.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/doestoevsky-knew-it-can-happen-here-hamas-palestine-progressive-radicalism-a7d196d6?page=1
“For the time being, “people are simply intimidated by some sort of habit,” Dostoevsky continues, but if some progressive expert were to come up with a theory showing that sometimes flaying skins can benefit the right cause because “the end justifies any means,” and if that expert were to express his view “using the appropriate style,” then, “believe me,” there would be respectable people among us “willing to carry out the idea.” Despite our sophistication and professions of compassion, “all that’s needed is for some new fad to appear and people would be instantly transformed.” ‘
DeleteOh, there would be five-peer reviewed studies proving it a sound practice.
five peer-reviewed
DeleteIvy League philosophers are ethical.
ReplyDelete