MONDAY, DECEMBER 18, 2023
Red and blue far, far apart: We thought this morning of two favorite scenes from a pair of Bronze Age epics.
The first scene occurs in Book IX of The Iliad, the great epic poem of war. The great commander Agamemnon is threatening to abandon the ten-year effort to scale the towering walls of Troy. A headstrong young soldier angrily disputes great Agamemnon in counsel.
A ten-year effort seems to be coming undone. An older leader scrambles to his feet and issues a timeless warning:
...Lost to the clan,
lost to the hearth, lost to the old ways, that one
who lusts for the horror of war with his own people.
With his speech, Nestor reunites and rallies the troops and pulls the Achaeans through.
Within the crackpot moral order of Bronze Age warfare, Nestor's speech constitutes a timeless warning about the dangers of angry division within an established community. We thought of Nestor's speech to the troops as we perused this morning's New York Times—but also as we watched videotape of Donald Trump's latest remarks.
The tape was played at the very start of today's Morning Joe. Just click here, then click again on "Trump becoming more explicit on how he wants to take down U.S. democracy."
On Saturday night, Candidate Trump spoke at a campaign event in Durham, New Hampshire. The videotape, and other transcripts, show him saying these things:
TRUMP (12/16/23): We're like a rocket ship. It was like a rocket ship sent by Kim Jong-un. Just like that. Who was very nice, I will tell you....He's not so fond of this administration, but he is fond of me.
[...]
Vladimir Putin, of Russia, says that Biden's, and this is a quote, "politically motivated persecution of his political rival, is very good for Russia because it shows the rottenness of the American political system, which cannot pretend to teach others about democracies."
[...]
And they're all laughing at us. Viktor Orban, the highly respected prime minister of Hungary, said Trump is the man who can save the Western world.
Let's state what is blindingly obvious:
Before the coming of Trump, it would have been extremely odd to see a major American political figure speaking in any such ways about these authoritarian rulers.
Trump also offered these remarks at the rally in question. He was speaking about the current state of immigration into this country:
TRUMP: They're poisoning the blood of our country. That's what they've done. They poisoned mental institutions and prisons all over the world, not just in South America, not just the three or four countries that we think about, but all over the world, they're coming into our country from Africa, from Asia, all over the world, they're pouring into our country.
Trump's reference to "mental institutions and prisons all over the world" doesn't quite seem to parse. That said, the general thrust of his commentary was clear—and he was speaking in ways which would have been hard to imagine even a few years ago.
Judged by conventional political norms, the former president's remarks are extremely unusual. That doesn't automatically mean that his various views are "wrong" on the merits—and it doesn't tell us how American voters will react to his views and remarks.
There was no sign that people at the New Hampshire rally were troubled by Trump's remarks. Having said that, we'll also say this:
In our view, one Morning Joe guest made a striking remark of her own at precisely 6:10 this morning. That Morning Joe analyst was Elise Jordan, a good and decent person.
As a general matter, Jordan is a never-Trump former Republican official. She responded in the following way to a question from Morning Joe's Jonathan Lemire:
LEMIRE (12/18/23): This is a moment, Elise, where we have Trump quoting Vladimir Putin. We have him praising Xi, Orban, Kim Jong-Un. We have him referring to January 6 convicts as "hostages," and we have him using language that evokes what Adolf Hitler used to say. ...My question is, are we sure Americans are going to care?
JORDAN: I don't think so. I think that you're going to have, a week before the election, maybe 50 million low-information voters voting on how they feel the economy is doing right then, that week in October 2024.
Oof. Jordan continued from there. We were struck by her remark about the "low-information voters" who are going to go out and vote for Trump.
In truth, we're all low-information voters here—"A Merry Christmas to us all," every one! In our view, there may be certain areas—immigration may be one such area—where we blue tribe voters may imaginably be more underinformed than corresponding red tribe voters.
We feel quite sure that Elise Jordan is a thoroughly good, decent person. That said:
To our eye and ear, her remark captured one of the ways our own blue tribe, down through the decades, has helped create the dangerous situation which now obtains in these darkest nights of the year.
Quite famously, Elvis Presley once looked ahead to a "blue, blue Christmas." In this current Christmas week, it seems to us that our warring political tribes—red and blue alike, yet far, far apart—are fashioning a dangerous and very blue holiday season.
We're thinking of the vast separation which now exists between our red and blue political tribes. We're also thinking of fascinating work in this morning's New York Times—work about the chasms which are opening up between those of us who are "pro-Palestinian" and those of us who are "pro-Israel."
Happy holidays to us all, every one! All of us find ourselves caught in a deeply challenging time:
For ourselves. we regard Candidate Trump as deeply, profoundly disordered. That said, tens of millions of friends and neighbors—and fellow citizens—think the same thing about President Biden.
Meanwhile, events involving Israel, Hamas and Gaza are creating angry domestic divides which are also extremely hard to negotiate. We'll try to discuss our flailing nation's blue, blue Christmas all through the rest of the week.
"Lost to the hearth," Nestor said, "that one who lusts for the horror of war with his own people."
From the Bronze Age down to the present day, it's a timeless word of warning. The seasoned leader went on to say this:
"Tonight's the night that rips our ranks to shreds or that pulls us through."
Tomorrow: Dueling reports in the Times
Homer wrote about the Trojan War long after it happened, if it happened at all. He based the Illiad on an epic oral tradition (memorized storytelling) as much as 500 years after the time in which the epic poem was set. That means that the dialog recited was not witnessed but entirely made up, fiction, and so were the events described. And yet Somerby presents this as if it were real. Somerby obviously knows that none of the events, much less the dialog, reported by Homer (who may not have existed as a single individual but may have been several people) is true, but that doesn't prevent him from pretending Homer existed.
ReplyDeleteThere are readers of this blog who may not understand who and what Homer was and may not know that the epic poems were created to explain ruins, not to describe anything known in Homer's time, 500 years after the fall of Troy, which may have fallen due to a natural disaster and not a war, much less over Helen and a fake horse. And there was likely no Cassandra either. Those lines of poetry that Somerby quotes are translations of a work that itself lives in the murky past, without any knowledge of who Homer was or if he even existed. The words are modern inventions by scholars. Somerby has lost all sense of the tenuousness of a work he quotes as if it were recorded yesterday on video.
Fantasy can be amusing but it is dangerous to live in it.
"work about the chasms which are opening up between those of us who are "pro-Palestinian" and those of us who are "pro-Israel."
ReplyDeleteThose chasms are not "opening up" as Somerby says, but are being revealed. They have existed since long before this current Hamas attack (the latest of many in an ongoing series of wars and attacks by Arabs against Israel). Jews have been persecuted since there were first Christians and Muslims, because they are a threat to the teachings of those two newer religions. This is more of the same.
You would think that our modern world would have wised up to the dangers posed by religious fanaticism, the constructed nature of religion, and the need for humanity to fight larger threats (such as global warming) and not continually wage puny wars of acquisition, as Palestinians keep doing, played for fools by their benefactors. It is time for humanity to grow up.
How can anyone feel anything more than pity and contempt for Palestinians who are stuck in dark age rivalries? Somerby stokes the animosities here by allowing his blog comments to be filled with pro-Palestinian filth while he himself eggs them on. What kind of people would rather kill their religious enemies than feed their own children?
Anon is repeating the flattering lie of White Man's Burden recycled into the standard orientalism about the backward filthy savages. Replace Arabs with Navajo and Iroquois and see how it sounds in your ear. Positively Trumpian.
DeleteReligious fanaticism of these conflicts in current bruised forms only go back about a hundred odd years and were escalated not healed by the addition of new colonial banks and borders and real estate goals of Herzl and his friends kissing up to racists for money. The first car bomb was set off by by Jews not Muslims. Netanyahu funded Hamas.
Islam has reformed in places when given time and the bruises of white supremacy, and We slowed it down, Judaism is also back sliding again into a Westernized caste through Zionism. Zionism is anti semitism in the classic political formula of creating race hierarchy.
Black, brown and Asian Independence's rise scared white supremacy into creating military juntas as an agenda which the US proudly called "our bastards" and every administrations since Nixon arranged more and more publicly. One exception was George Bush the First forgetting the strange arrangement and playing tough on the right wing settlers quickly reversed by AIPAC.
The reason for ramping up hostility in the region in 1970s was to instigate war brinkmanship and prop up hardliners against their own population. Most of the military victories claimed by Tel Aviv were against armies built not for natural self defense but to arrest their domestic population.
Open about history book not dictated by a raging islamophobe with friends named Jeffery. Try reading Fanon or Said or a real anti white supremacy thinkers.
Sorry about the typos hard to edit on the phone
DeleteSeems like a stupid way to look at it.
Deleteconspiracy theories are stupid
DeleteWhich is more stupid, describing imperialism with history or blaming its prejudice on women with the wrong religion?
DeleteI read wikipedia, I smell my fingers, and I hate Arabs.
ReplyDeleteI am Corby.
"For ourselves. we regard Candidate Trump as deeply, profoundly disordered. That said, tens of millions of friends and neighbors—and fellow citizens—think the same thing about President Biden."
ReplyDeleteYes, Trump is disordered, but part of that disorder consists of telling lies about Biden, who is regarded as one of the best presidents since FDR, bringing us out of a pandemic and achieving a soft economic landing without the help of Republicans who have impeded his efforts.
Notice how Somerby treats the beliefs of Republicans about Biden as if they were as valid as the obvious fact that Trump has dementia and is unfit to run for president much less serve in that role. If Somerby cannot tell the truth, he should stop talking. These lies about Biden are dangerous to the future of our country.
Think about it logically.
Delete"Meanwhile, events involving Israel, Hamas and Gaza are creating angry domestic divides which are also extremely hard to negotiate."
ReplyDeleteThese so-called events are not happening to Hamas and Gaza. They are being perpetrated by Hamas ON Israel and Gaza (to the extent that it does not aid Hamas). The active agent here is Hamas, funded by Russia via Iran and Qatar. This was not an accident but a planned attack on a neighbor. THAT has created turmoil, death and suffering. Blame needs to be placed where it belongs, on those who committed a brutal attack on Israel on 10/7.
Consider the Gazan's feelings.
Delete“Funded by Russia through Iran and Qatar.” You are an idiot.
DeleteWhat feeling person would murder women and children?
DeleteWhat feeling person would murder men?
DeleteExactly. Gazans permit brutality in their name. What feeling person does that?
DeleteThe Middle East is full of unfeeling people. Time for Jews to move to another region.
DeleteTime for Palestinians to be absorbed by Arab nations.
Delete
ReplyDeleteI ♥ Joe Biden, because Joe Biden loves children.
I am Corby.
Trump loves children so much, he has the same size hands as them.
DeleteSomerby makes a fuss about Homer writing during the Bronze age, but historians place him during the Iron age too. Not that it matters to anything except Somerby's accuracy, but he is trying to quote Nestor as if he existed when he is a fictional character too. Somerby might as well use Marvel comics as a metaphor for Hamas and Gaza and Israel, as some stupid poem about fighting that he seems to believe is real.
ReplyDeleteThis is one of the goofier affectations Somerby uses to fill the screen with empty words. Why would anyone spend so much time writing while trying so hard to say nothing at all?
why would anyone who has that take waste her time reading the blogger every day?
DeleteI notice you never answer about Somerby. This is just deflection.
DeleteWhether TDH's use of the Iliad to illustrate his point was apt or not is a tangential issue. My view is that anon 10:50's only point day in and day out is to find a reason,. 98% of the time an absurd one, to attack the blogger, so I have to wonder about it - is she deranged? TDH was trying to make a point, the same one he does make all the time, about the great divide between blue and red, and that blue bears some responsibility. I can see why one might tire of it, but the answer is easy, go to another blog or read or book or something.
DeleteSomerby’s use of Homer makes no more sense than his use of Elvis.
Delete
ReplyDeleteMy purpose in life is flooding Somerby's comment section with word-salads. And smelling my fingers.
I am Corby.
I do not smell my fingers. I am the real Corby.
DeleteYou are a fake Corby, funded by Russia through Iran and Qatar. You had a childhood trauma. You break rules and norms.
DeleteI am Corby.
I don’t get any support from Russia, Iran, or Qatar. None at all. But I am grateful for the generous donations I’ve received from Cecelia and David. I am the one true Corby.
DeleteThis isn’t cute or funny.
DeleteThis is Bronze Age humor. You just don’t get it.
DeleteAnonymouse 12:07pm, donation? You said you’d pressure wash my house.
DeleteI meant that metaphorically.
DeleteSpeak for yourself when you say that we are all low information voters. This applies mainly to Trumpists.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking for myself, I am a low-information voter.
DeleteWho in his right mind would say that Trump’s ravings are not necessarily wrong?
ReplyDeleteSomerby thinks we on the left are underinformed about immigration compared to the red tribe. Democrats have traditionally been the party of immigrants. We support immigration reform and we fund the non-profits working directly to help them. Somerby is no liberal.
ReplyDeleteHaven't the Democrats been, traditionally, the party of slaveholders? Which is, probably, why they ♥ illegal immigrants.
DeleteAsk the right wing mega-farmers where they will get their labor force, ok, troll boy?
DeleteMy point exactly.
DeleteElvis would not condone use of his song for political purposes like this.
ReplyDeleteLike Bob, I don't like the things he quotes Trump as saying. However, words are far less important than actions. Biden's actions regarding illegal immigration are disastrous.
ReplyDeleteThe job of the Executive Branch is to enforce the law. Rather than enforce immigration law, Biden works to NOT enforce the law. He even appears willing to stop arming Ukraine in order to not enforce immigration law. This is a direct attack on democracy. And, it's impacting America in ways that will be impossible to undo. IMO Biden's immigration policy demands that one vote Republican.
Trump's wild rant is disgusting. However, faced with Biden's wild actions, there is some justification for wild speech.
This is how David manages to twist himself into a pretzel so he can look himself in the mirror every morning while supporting a fucking racist fascist megalomaniacal treasonous lying sack of shit corrupt rapist.
DeleteDavid, why don't you ask Ruby Freeman or FOXNOOZ what the value of "just words" is, you fucking cretin.
DeleteLatest Trump immigration comments draw Hitler comparisons from Biden campaign
DeleteIsn't comparing someone to Hitler as extreme and disgusting as what Trump said? Should the Biden campaign be held to the same standards as Trump?
@David,
Deletewhat is it that you find so "disgusting" about the Trump's quote? It sounds interesting, actually. To learn what some of the world's leaders, outside the American sphere of influence, think about the US political situation. You probably won't find it in NYT and WaPo.
To me. the phrase "poisoning the blood" sounds racist. However, Trump is right to point out that illegal immigrants from countries all over the world are coming in via our southern border.
DeleteIt’s not racist. It’s sanguinist, or maybe hematist.
DeleteIt's literally what Hitler said about the Jews poisoning the Aryan blood, David. Fucking literally, yet you think the President pointing this out is "disgusting", you fucking racist cretin.
DeleteAh, the second quote. Obviously, "poisoning the blood of our country" is idiomatic, so "racist" doesn't fit here. And don't forget: everyone who crossed the border without authorization is a criminal.
DeleteWhoever wins the 2024 Presidential election, let's hope they plan to streamline legal immigration to make it easier. That alone should drastically reduce illegal immigration at our southern border.
Delete2:25,
DeleteCrossing the border without authorization is a civil offense, not a criminal offense. It's more akin to driving over the speed limit, then it is to grabbing a woman by the pussy without consent.
It is criminal. Title 8 section 1325.
DeleteCivil, not criminal:
Deletehttps://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual-1911-8-usc-1325-unlawful-entry-failure-depart-fleeing-immigration#:~:text=The%20Illegal%20Immigration%20Reform%20and,subject%20to%20a%20civil%20penalty.
"This is archived content from the U.S. Department of Justice website. The information here may be outdated..."
DeleteIt hasn’t been made criminal, it’s still civil.
DeleteIt's criminal.
Delete"...for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both"
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCODE-2022-title8/html/USCODE-2022-title8-chap12-subchapII-partVIII-sec1325.htm
Delete"Civil penalties under this subsection are in addition to, and not in lieu of, any criminal or other civil penalties that may be imposed."
I've spoken with "the Others".
DeleteIt's not the "illegal" part of "illegal immigration" they have a problem with.
BTW -- Trump is using a sneaky but effective technique. Illegal immigration is a good issue for Trump. By describing his position using provocative words, Trump ensures that this issue will receive a lot of coverage.
DeleteOne thing I am sick of is women.
DeleteRight, David, you dumb fuck fascist groupie. Nobody would have ever heard about the issue without donald J Chickenshit invoking Hitler's words.
DeleteCivil? Criminal? Either way, it's a victimless crime.
DeleteZionism poisoned David’s brain.
DeleteTrump can lock-in every Republican vote, if he drops the N-word into his speeches every now and then.
DeleteI hate the Arabs, the Persians, and the Russians. Somerby does not. Somerby is no liberal.
ReplyDeleteI am Corby.
Here's an event seen differently by the blue and the red: the death of George Floyd. Glenn Loury and John McWhorter discuss it:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ffv4IUxkDU
In all these stories about George Floyd's death, you never hear the media mention not one good guy with a gun showed-up in the 10+ minute video.
DeleteYou'd think that would be a newsworthy fact, seeing as how we are told they are the majority of the nation's gun owners.
We should encourage Israeli Jews to immigrate.
ReplyDeleteWhy don’t you immigrate instead. These comments are sounding antisemitic.
DeleteI can’t immigrate — I’m already here! And no, I’m not antisemitic, I want Jewish people to come to America.
DeleteYou are a troll.
DeleteYes, I’m a troll. The Zionist seizure of Palestine was and is wrong.
DeleteJonathan Majors has a master’s degree from Yale.
ReplyDelete