WEDNESDAY, MAY 7, 2025
Adeventures in using our words: This past Monday, we were pleased to see Andrew Weissmann skillfully using his words.
We spotted him that afternoon on MSNBC's Deadline: White House. He was discussing the "due process" rights of the several hundred non-citizens who were shipped off to El Salvador's CECOT.
As he discussed the Supreme Court's ruling concerning that matter, he drew an important distinction:
WEISSMANN (5/5/25): The people who were—you can't say "deported"—who were forcibly extracted and put in a foreign prison, where they are today, were denied due process, according to nine sitting Justices.
Those people weren't "deported," Weissmann said. In reality, they were "forcibly extracted and put in a foreign prison."
Admittedly, that second locution is clumsy. At this site, we've tended to go with the simpler term, "renditioned." But if you simply say that those men were "deported," you may be creating a false impression about what has really occurred.
The analysts cheered when they saw Weissmann explicitly choosing his words. You can't say "deported," he said. Many writers of headlines have.
That very night, we watched Lawrence O'Donnell as he employed a contradictory bundle of words in a lengthy discussion of President Trump.
As he started, he was savaging President Trump for one of the things he had said to Kristen Welker on Sunday's Meet the Press. He went on to author a lengthy diatribe. This is the way his characterization of the president's performance started:
O'DONNELL (5/5/25): It was a standard Trump dishonest interview from start to finish, with Donald Trump lying at every turn. And with Donald Trump proving, once again, that he is, to use his words, a stupid person—a very stupid person.
Uh oh! Already, it seemed to us that O'Donnell was blending a pair of terms which may not go together real well. To show you what he was talking about in particular, here's what he said next:
O'DONNELL (continuing directly): Donald Trump talks repeatedly in the interview about how much money we were losing because of international trade. We have never lost a penny because of international trade.
Donald Trump said, quote, "We were losing hundreds of billions of dollars with China." Now think about how very stupid and dishonest that statement is...
As he continued, O'Donnell explained what he thinks is wrong with what Trump said. According to O'Donnell, Trump's statement about international trade was "very stupid and dishonest."
He said it was stupid and dishonest—but can it clearly be both?
Let's assume that President Trump made a wildly inaccurate statement. He may have done so because he's "very stupid"—but that would suggest that he believes his wildly inaccurate statement, which would seem to suggest that he wasn't lying or being dishonest when he (dumbly) made it.
Is President Trump amazingly dumb, or is he wildly dishonest? Is there a sensible way to say that he's both? We aren't real sure about that.
What exactly was O'Donnell actually saying about this highly unusual person? As O'Donnell's diatribe started, the answer didn't seem entirely clear to us. Eventually, his position seemed to become that much more scattered.
By 10:19, Lawrence had moved beyond "stupid" and "dishonest." He had now thrown in an additional term: "crazy."
He might have mean that term to be merely colloquial. But as he neared the end of his long presentation, he was describing Trump as "the man who displays economic dementia every time he talks about tariffs."
That may have been colloquial too. Moments earlier, though, he had said this, referring to a photo of Trump picturing him as a pope:
O'DONNELL: That is not a picture of a man with bad taste. Donald Trump has been a vulgarian with bad taste his entire life. That is a picture that the 25th Amendment was created to deal with—a disabled president unable to carry out his duties because of physical or mental disability.
Is he very dishonest or very stupid? Or is he mentally disabled in some unspecified way?
O'Donnell was raging all through this presentation. That said, what was he actually trying to say?
The president's niece, a clinical psychologist, has said that he could likely be diagnosed as a sociopath. We thought of that when the raging O'Donnell finally mentioned this:
O'DONNELL: Donald Trump has hurt a lot of people. Donald Trump and Elon Musk literally, literally have taken food away from starving children in the middle of a famine in Sudan.
They have taken life-saving medicine away from people around the world, especially people in poverty in Africa. They have sent people who have committed no crimes to a prison in El Salvador. Donald Trump is doing all of this, heaping cruelty on top of cruelty, without really knowing what he is doing.
He doesn't really know what he's doing? That doesn't exactly sound like "stupid." That might almost sound like some of the things Mary Trump said, rightly or wrongly, in her best-selling book.
Lawrence is inclined to rage against Donald Trump. But what exactly was his claim as his long presentation unfolded?
Would it be better if he conducted careful interviews with carefully selected medical specialists—with people who might be able to offer ideas, based on detailed experience, about the behaviors which have O'Donnell in a slightly muddled rage?
Imprisonment isn't deportation. But also, very stupid isn't dishonest, and neither one is "mental disability." With respect to President Trump, what might the most carefully chosen word or words be?
Of course, there's a journalistic rule against speaking to medical specialists! Nor would our journalists be likely to know how to do so.
Under these unusual circumstances, what's the best word for that?
Donald Trump and Elon Musk have not taken a penny from anyone. They are giving some people less money than they used to be given. Just because someone was given something before does not mean that he somehow owns the right to continue being given it.
ReplyDeleteNote the contrast with taxing authorities who do literally, literally take money from people.
Literally, that is the comment of a very poorly informed person. Sad.
DeleteGuess we should do away with taxes then, Dickhead. Thanks for the thoughtful post.
DeleteIt is a very poorly informed comment. Calling taxation 'taking money from people' abject nonsense.
DeleteIlya - can you expand on your point? The definition says "A contribution for the support of a government required of persons..."
DeleteThe word "required" seems to me to be synonymous with "taking away." Why do you say it isn't?
When I paid my taxes this year I did not refer to that act as the government "taking away" money from me, any more than when I buy a loaf of bread I claim that the store owner "took money away" from me. You may not like how your government spends the money it collects, but 249 years ago there was a war fought establishing that your representative government and not some unelected monarch decides such. There was no question whatsoever about the contract you have with your government to pay taxes. Go elsewhere if you don't see it that way, like some adolescent libertarian. I, for one, would rather see my tax contribution spent on medical research and other causes that DOGE has taken a chainsaw to, rather than 2,000 lb bombs to drop on a civilian population in Gaza, or idiotically redundant studies of the efficacy of vaccines. But I do not claim that the government "took away money" from me for such, rather that it is not using my tax money wisely.
DeleteThis may seem odd to you but many US citizens willingly pay taxes because they love their country and want to support it.
DeleteOne of the "tells" that the extremists with the chainsaws have no interest in lowering the national debt is their targeted attack on IRS enforcement, firing government workers whose activities result in collection of money that quantitatively is multiples of their salaries. If Musk, Trump and their DOGE bros had as their intent the lowering of our debt, more of these people would be hired. Instead, they have made it easier to illegally dodge the IRS.
DeleteDavid -- everything in the land belongs to the sovereign. Let's start with that. We have moved away somewhat from this expansive view. In fact, Magna Carta is the first major step curtailing the sovereign's power. As an aside, Magna Carta also established the right of Habeas Corpus, which the Trump's administration seems to be wantonly violating. Of course, taxes are much more important than an individual's freedom, so back to that.
DeleteSo, there are limits to the sovereign power. And, as it so happens, in the US the sovereign is elected and with that comes the power of taxation. Oddly enough, you don't seem to be inveighing against Trump's tariffs, which, of course, are taxes. Taxes, which I would point, have not been voted on by our representatives.
The idea -- which is a harebrained staple of libertarian thinking -- that an individual somehow can establish their own fiefdom within a country is beyond ludicrous. Yes, our representative government is absolutely entitled to tax its citizens and businesses. The only outrageous aspect of it is how much it favors wealthy individuals; and how much they are allowed to get away with.
Anon@10:43 gives a good, succinct explanation.
PS: That 'required to pay' bit is synonymous with being a resident of a country. In your own country, you can do whatever you want.
@10:43 - thanks for your comment. When I buy a loaf of bread, I decide whether or not to pay the baker in exchange for bread. I agree that I get something in exchange for my
Deletetaxes. However I pay because the government says, “Pay me tax money or I will take the money by force AND put you in jail.
1. Ilya, well put, especially the part about Trump's tariffs; even Rand Paul knows better.
Delete2) DiC, your argument against my statement (10:43) is a confession. You pay taxes because you feel threatened to. You (perhaps inadvertently) are admitting that absent that fear you would not pay them. This is a remarkable admission for someone who looks upon others in this country as freeloaders. Perhaps if you had more courage you could join their ranks. Go ahead and give it a shot next April 15th and do what your heart tells you is right, irrespective of the possible repercussions. Don't pay taxes on our social security income. Chances are better than ever that the slashing of IRS enforcement by Musk will let you get away with it. You'll have your freedom from the "deep state" or whatever it is you want to call our country; as I recall, the president you voted for called it garbage before the election.
Come on David, even the Jewish prophet Jesus said pay your damn taxes already.
DeleteLet's make a list of people who we definitely know don't care about the deficit.
DeleteI'll get us started:
Donald Trump
Elon Musk
David in Cal
Let's keep it going.
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ReplyDeleteSomerby doesn't seem to understand that there are very stupid people who make shit up. In people with dementia or certain kinds of amnesia, someone asks them a question and they know they don't know the answer, so they make up something because they are too embarrassed to admit they don't know the answer. That is called confabulation. If the person has a reasonably functional frontal lobe, they can monitor their answer to see whether it is plausible. If their frontal lobe is damaged, as in dementia or traumatic brain injury or Korsakoff's syndrome (a kind of amnesia resulting from prolonged alocohol abuse and malnutrition), then what they make up won't sound likely and may sound very bizarre.
ReplyDeleteWhat did you have for breakfast today? If a person doesn't remember but says "Eggs and ham" that is a reasonable answer. If the person instead says "green squirrels" or "I took a bath without any soap" that is not plausible or responsive and indicates an inability to monitor their own thoughts and speech for appropriateness.
Dementia and amnesia are not stupidity. They are disorders. It frustrates me when people mistakes Trump's innate stupidity (expressed as ignorance and foolishness) for cognitive decline. Somerby never even raises the possibility of mental decline -- it must be either a lie or stupidity, he says today, but there are other possibilities.
Somerby has a good point, that we don't know what Trump's mental status us, much less what he knows or doesn't know, but we can all see and hear what he says in various contexts. He is not normal, not competent to do the job he is holding, and if he is declining, his people are not telling the public. Remember when Ronald Reagan thought he really flew a plane in WWII? No one told us he had Alzheimer's until it was in the late stages. Trump is similarly confusing fantasy and reality, movies with real life, and making up whatever he does not know. We have been calling that grandiosity but what if it is just confabulation arising from dementia-related cognitive decline? Trump seems much worse to me that Reagan did and I believe his people need to explain what is going on, given his continual gaffes and inability to say anything resembling truth, whatever the cause.
Enjoyed your thoughts on this. I'm torn between decline and just a dumb person doing his angry old man routine. Either way, frightening.
DeleteStupid people tell as many lies and non-stupid people. Their lies are just more easily found out.
ReplyDeleteThe lies of stupid people fool other stupid people, who aren't good at telling lies from truth. For example, Trump talked about the sharks preventing escapes from Alcatraz. That may sound good to his stupid followers, but the sharks in San Francisco Bay are bottom-feeders and would not prevent an escape. Trump went into a long gory discourse about bodies being recovered with shredded clothes and bite marks. That is confabulation, made up shit based on his own imagination, not real. His stupid followers wouldn't know any better and also wouldn't know how to look anything up:
Delete"No successful escapes from Alcatraz have ever been confirmed, though there were 14 separate escape attempts involving 36 inmates. Of those attempts, 23 inmates were recaptured, 7 were shot and killed during the escape attempts, and at least 3 drowned. Five inmates involved in two separate escape attempts, two in 1937 and three in 1962, remain unaccounted for."
Compare reality with Trump's made up shit and it should be obvious he doesn't have a clue about Alcatraz beyond watching a movie about it recently. Does that make Trump a liar? You bet.
Does Trump believe his own lies? I think he has an attitude about other people that excuses him from having to say anything that makes sense on any topic. When you listen to Trump talk about how we don't have to negotiate any deals because we have the upper hand, that we will just dictate terms and other countries will accept them. That is a handy way for him to avoid having to know anything about trade, anything about specific countries, avoid accountability for having made no deals, sound all-powerful and assure his followers that he will achieve everything he claimed (even if he said he already had 200 deals). Trump is spouting nonsense but he doesn't think he has to care whether anyone believes him or not, and his motive is usually self-aggrandizement, not conveying info. The word "lie" implies conveying information that is not true. When Trump says anything, the last thing he is doing is conveying any info. So is it possible to lie in that situation?
ReplyDeleteBut this all leads to the question of whether someone who behaves like this is fit to function as president. I don't think we need to decide how much Trump lies to call him unfit. And that should be obvious to all, even the most stupid of his followers. So why hasn't anyone acted to remove him? And why doesn't Somerby ever deal with questions that matter to our nation? Is he perhaps a little bit stupid?
The ability to convince someone of anything depends on their receptiveness, which is a function of how well that information, true or false, fits into the listener's narrative and biases. When Musk says he will save 160 billion dollars over the course of a year, when 100 billion of that is unaccounted for, the MAGAs want to schedule a victory parade, the hell with the math. All they care about is that Musk told them what they wanted to hear.
DeleteDoes Trump believe his own lies? IMO most pols say what they're supposed to say. Did Harris and other Dems believe that Biden was mentally sharp as a tack? I'd guess that Trump and all the other pols do not believe the lies they tell.
DeleteIt's not a cult, because they'd dump Trump's ass in a heartbeat if he called for reparations for black people.
DeleteI think I agree with Lawrence O'Donell, trump is too far gone to even know if he is lying anymore. He seems to not know what is going on in his administration a lot. He is an old conman who has lied so much his entire life that he just does it reflexively now. Bullshit just starts flowing out of his pie hole without much of any thought behind it. I don't know why reporters bother anymore interviewing him anymore. It is just nonsense.
DeleteGo fuck yourself, Dickhead in Cal. Go troll somewhere else.
"Dishonest, stupid, "disconnected from reality?"
ReplyDeleteYes, all of the above. These are not mutually exclusive.
"He said it was stupid and dishonest—but can it clearly be both?" With a disingenuous moran like the Felon, absolutely.
Delete"At this site, we've tended to go with the simpler term, "renditioned.""
ReplyDeleteYou're such a fucking genius, Bob.
It doesn’t mean the same thing. Terrorists captured in the middle east were sent to another country by the US for enhanced interrogation (torture). That was rendition, not what Trump is doing to his own people.
DeleteThe USA isn't at war with Venezuela.
ReplyDeleteTrump is at war with the nation's populous.
populace
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