THE WAY WE ARGUE: Ben Affleck’s trio of bombs!

TUESDAY, OCTOBER 14, 2014

Part 2—Listening can be hard:
When he went to the plate for the Cleveland Indians, Mike Hargrove wasted so much time between each pitch that he earned a comical nickname: The Human Rain Delay.

On Friday evening, October 3, Ben Affleck earned a different moniker: The (All Too) Human Two-Minute Warning.

Poor Affleck! On that evening’s Real Time with Bill Maher, Maher and Sam Harris were trying to make some sort of claim about the way liberals react, or fail to react, to “illiberal” conduct and belief in the Muslim world.

At the 87-second mark, Affleck interrupted for the first time. Before the segment was two minutes old, he’d dropped the first of his bombs.

To watch the full segment, click here:

HARRIS (10/3/14): I’m not denying that, that certain people are bigoted against Muslims as people. And that’s a problem.

AFFLECK (sarcastically): That’s big of you.

HARRIS: But the—

MAHER: But why are you so hostile about this concept?

AFFLECK: Because it’s gross, it’s racist.

MAHER: It’s not. It’s—but it’s so not.

AFFLECK: It’s so—it’s like saying, “You’re a shifty Jew.”

HARRIS: Absolutely not.

MAHER: You’re not listening to what we are saying.
Harris and Maher had barely had time to sketch their case, whatever their case might have been. Already, though, with less than two minutes gone, Affleck could listen no more.

Their claims were “racist,” he angrily said—and yes, his anger was rather plain. It was like the pair had been saying, “You’re a shifty Jew.”

In fairness to Affleck, he made several reasonable points in the course of the ten-minute semi-discussion. Beyond that, there’s nothing wrong with being angry, as he plainly was.

There’s nothing automatically wrong with getting angry in the course of a discussion. It all depends on what the others have said.

That said, Affleck delivered quite a few bombs in the course of the ten-minute segment. He also seemed to have a hard time hearing what others had said.

Increasingly, this is The Way We Argue. Let’s start with Affleck’s bombs.

Just before the two-minute mark, the first of these bombs was unloosed. Maher and Harris had said something “racist,” Affleck claimed. It was like they’d referred to “shifty Jews.”

Just before the three-minute mark, Affleck exploded again. On this occasion, he delivered no bombs. But in a remarkably angry, explosive way, he offered these objections to what was being said:
AFFLECK: How about more than a billion people who aren’t fanatical, who don’t punish women, who just want to go to school, have some sandwiches, pray five times a day—

MAHER: Wait a second! Wait a second!

AFFLECK: —and don’t do any of the things you saying all Muslims do? It’s stereotyping.

HARRIS: I’m not saying all Muslims say that.

AFFLECK: Some of them do bad things and you’re painting the whole religion with that same brush.
Harris and Maher were “stereotyping,” Affleck now said. Some Muslims were doing bad things and they were “painting the whole religion with that same brush.”

Tomorrow, we’ll assess this claim by Affleck, but he dropped no bombs at this point. Later, though, at the eight-minute mark, the bombs began falling again:
AFFLECK: Your argument is like, “You know, black people! You know, they shoot each other! They’re blacks!”

MAHER: No, it’s not! No it’s not. It’s based on facts. I can show you a Pew poll of Egyptians—they are not outliers in the Muslim world—that say like 90 percent of them believe death is the appropriate response to leaving the religion. If 90 percent of Brazilians thought death was the appropriate response to leaving Catholicism, you would think it was a bigger deal.

AFFLECK: I would think it’s a big deal no matter what.

MAHER: OK, but that’s the fact.

AFFLECK: What I wouldn’t do is say, “It’s all Brazilians.” Or I wouldn’t say, “Well, Ted Bundy did this. Goddamn these gays, they’re all trying to eat each other!”
In that passage, the aggrieved movie star dropped two more bombs. It was like Harris and Maher were making ugly claims about blacks, he said. It was like they we remaking ugly claims in which all gays got blamed for the criminal acts of Ted Bundy.

(Was Bundy gay? Did he eat his victims? We don’t understand the last of these bombs, but its general import seemed clear.)

Affleck had gone for the hat trick. In slightly more than eight minutes, he had accused Harris and Maher of behaving like the ugliest kinds of anti-Semites, racists and homophobes. At the nine-minute mark, he got a bit of help from the New York Times’ Nicholas Kristof:
KRISTOF: But this is such a caricature of Indonesia, of Malaysia, so much of the world. And this does have a tinge, a little bit, of the way white racists talk about African-Americans and define blacks by black criminals, which are not representative.
Kristof was more refined than the visibly overwrought Hollywood liberal who sat beside him. To him, the presentation by Harris and Maher had created “a caricature” of much of the world.

In the remarks by Harris and Maher, Kristof had detected “a tinge, a little bit, of the way white racists talk about” blacks. On the basis of that “tinge,” he was willing to drop a bit of an R-bomb too.

Increasingly, this is The Way We Argue in the liberal world. In the course of this ten-minute semi-discussion, Maher and Harris were compared to white racists on two occasions. They were also compared to the worst kinds of anti-Semites and to the grossest homophobes.

Bombs were dropped four separate times in the course of ten minutes. Increasingly, this is The Way We Argue, especially in the on-line liberal world.

At this point, an obvious fact should be noted. Sometimes, people do talk like racists, like homophobes and anti-Semites.

Sometimes, people talk that way when they talk about Muslims!

Did Harris and Maher talk that way? Was there good reason for the bombs which littered the countryside during this ten-minute cruise?

Tomorrow, we’re going to look at the things Harris and Maher actually said that night. In our view, each man said at least one thing which would have been better left unsaid—although the bombs had started to fall before those comments were uttered.

It’s also true that Affleck made one or two sensible points that night. At the 87-second mark, he asked a perfectly good question when he broke in for the first time. Later, he stated an unfortunate but accurate fact about American conduct in the Muslim world.

In a slightly different world, Affleck could have helped create a useful discussion. Given the way we currently argue, that didn’t happen this night.

Tomorrow, we’re going to look at the things Maher and Harris said. Unfortunately, though, we must state a key fact:

Listening can be hard!

Again and again, Affleck seemed completely unable to hear what these other people had said. Increasingly, that too is The Way We Argue. Can a modern nation hope to succeed when its citizens function this way?

Tomorrow: The statements of Harris and Maher

56 comments:

  1. Affleck is thinking of Jeffrey Dahmer. Ted Bundy was not gay and did not eat his victims.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. He could have been talking about gay Brazilians.

      Delete
    2. Gay Brazilian cannibalism. Overwrought Hollywood liberal types always walk away while their bombs explode behind them.

      Delete
    3. 1:03 PM, why did you award 11:15 AM a dollar? His comment was relevant and informative.

      Delete
    4. @ 4:18 you are exactly right. He was relevant and informative. That earned Bob a buck. What? You thought I was the asshole from yesterday or something?

      Delete
  2. " Can a modern nation hope to succeed when its citizens function this way?"

    The Left does have a tendency to eat their own. Not that it's just the Left, because conservatives who worship St Ronaldus seem to have forgotten his dictum 'speak no evil of another republican' in recent years. As for the Left just look at the disarray in Scotland over the referendum. It's part and parcel of the Left to squabble over nictating points, or who is more righteously non-bigoted. Orwell came back from Catalonia in a dispirited state over the behavior of the Left. I see Affleck with a bit of that reflection, but he wasn't really prepared as he should have been to make a salient point. He obviously was ferring to other shows wherein Maher was on his high trapeze making snide and frankly bigoted comments about muslims in general. Affeck dropped the ball, but I still think he was on the right track, just at the wrong time.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Is Affleck an example of the Left eating its own? Maher is not of the Left. He is an Independent who supported Obama but who generally leans Libertarian. His show typically includes both left and right panelists, and he dated Ann Coulter (how Left could he be and do that?) and now calls her friend.

      Affleck should have been prepared to talk about Islam fundamentalism given that it is so much in the news every week. Maher makes snide and bigoted comments about members of ALL religions. It is his schtick.

      I don't agree that Affleck was on the right track. I tend to agree with Maher that religions are given a pass instead of criticized and I see no reason why Maher should not criticize whatever religion he wants. Being critical of the teachings or practices of a religion is not bigotry. It can be legitimate analysis. For Maher it is just another source of humor and that may be what is annoying those who take religion seriously.

      Delete
    2. I have no religious affiliation, but I do have some respect for the beliefs of others, no matter how silly it may sound to me.

      He doesn't just criticize. His bigotry toward those he derides comes from a superior attitude. But thanks for finding a niche for argumentation. Maybe he is Left Libertarian, or anarchist (doubtful) but he jerks left most of the time. What the hell are labels anyway? I watch behaviors, rather than listen to words. Anyone can call themselves what they wish.

      Delete
    3. I don't think he jerks left. I think he jerks Californian. His odd beliefs about food and health are not shared by liberals in other parts of the country. He buys into some very wrong economic beliefs and he has very little empathy for people struggling (a non-left trait). He dislikes women and he makes racist jokes frequently, something I doubt a left jerking person would do (as much as he does). I really don't want to own him as part of my tribe (the Left Jerkers).

      Delete
    4. Criticizing a religion is not the same as bigotry against its adherents.

      Delete
    5. I don't think Affleck is making that distinction.

      Delete
  3. But what was his motivation?

    ReplyDelete
  4. I believe Affleck was mixing up Ted Bundy with Jeffrey Dahmer.

    G. Woolsey

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. $ 2 + $1 for repetition.

      Delete
  5. Although it's politically incorrect to say, IMHO some cultures are better than others. Also, a group defined by race or religion is apt to have sub-cultures that that differ from each other.

    E.g., the book The Uncivil War by Taleeb Starkes says there are two very different groups of African Americas. The majority are hard-working, honest, and upwardly mobile. OTOH he says a particular inner city minority are sociopathic. People who speak in Ebonics, have no interest in education, commit many crimes. are content to live on welfare, etc. Acknowledging this difference is valuable, because it leads to consideration of how to motivate African Americans to adopt the values and culture of the former group, rather than the latter.

    A parallel dichotomy applies to Muslims. IMHO it's very important that we seek ways to get Muslims to adopt healthy values and culture, rather than the sociopathic culture of what's often called "radical" Islam.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Well, after we finally bring Jesus to those reluctantly
      dysfunctional African Americans, DinC. so their tax dollars are coming inb from the ghetto instead of going there to waste, perhaps then we can insist our petro dollars be spent by them Muslims on better cultural and value adoption.

      Delete
    2. I read the Starkes book as well and appreciated his courage. There are indeed cultures and religions that are better than others. The Christian religion in its modern and if positive influence in the world. The Muslim religion in its modern and mainstream form is not. Fundamentalist atheism and anti-theism are the most dangerous of all modern faiths because without an objective moral underpinning there is no reason for humans to behave in any particular manner with regard to each other.

      Delete
    3. You can have an objective moral underpinning without religion. There is no difference in the moral behavior of religious and non-religious people, empirically. Religious people do seem to have trouble figuring out where non-religious people get their morals, if not from religion, but the answer is that we all get our morals from our culture and families, and all people have that as an influence on them.

      Delete
    4. Interesting that DAinCA didn't give the full title of Starke's book. It's The Uncivil War: blacks vs niggers.

      I'm waiting for the NAACP to give their next image award jointly to DAinCA and Starkes so that the two of them can explain the difference between "dsyfunctional African Americans" and niggers. They can then head over to the ADL to expound on how to distinguish good Jews from the kikes who run international finance. And I'm sure the Italian American Civil Rights League would love to be instructed on how to spot a good person of Italian descent and one of those wop bastard mafiosi.

      I think there's a whole career for this clueless salt-n-pepper team.

      Delete
    5. Actually a trio: you left out Anonymous October 14, 2014 at 2:30 pm.

      Delete
    6. deadrat, as AnonymousOctober 14, 2014 at 2:30 PM pointed out, it's a courageous book. If you read it, it might change your views. Starkes uses the N-word to denote the dysfunctional African-Americans, and uses the word "Blacks" to denote the larger subset that's functioning properly.

      Both deadrat and 2:16 PM responded with snark. I think that's because they don't have a good logical response They can't deny the existence of a dysfunctional African-American element. They can't deny the existence of Muslims who commit mass murder and saw people's heads off in the name of Islam. Yet, it isn't considered acceptable to talk about these groups. I think both of them are trying to discourage any discussion about these groups. In other words, political correctness requires that one be in denial.

      Delete
    7. DAinCA,

      Might the book change my mind if I decided to waste time reading an author who thinks that it's a good thing to include a racial slur in his book's title? Anything is possible, but I sure as hell don't intend to listen to this advice from someone who never checks his sources.

      And ya know, life is too short to read much crap from rightards no matter what color their skin. I did click through a YouTube video of Adam Carolla interviewing Starke, though. (I skipped Carolla yakking, which is most of it.) Here's the height of the man's wit. He keeps his daughter from dating boys with sagging pants by telling them that he has "a shotgun, a shovel, and an airtight alibi."

      Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

      Yeah, it's more snark, which is actually more than it deserves. No one, me included, denies that there "dysfunctional" black people or that there are Muslims who commit mass murder. And if you think I'm capable of discouraging discussion, just consider that KZ is still pimping his spellcasting here.

      Delete
    8. The reply to Carolla is amusing.

      Delete
  6. If Maher and Harris aren't racists I don't know who is. Somersby went on and on promising us that nest time he will summarize what they were saying.
    In the meantime, before he even attempts to explain the context for Affleck's remarks he comes down on him for using "the R word."
    To use the language of this blog "Darling, such things should never be said!"
    Bob Gardner
    Randolph, MA

    ReplyDelete
  7. OMB (M&M. Mixin' Metaphors at Play of the Field of the OTB)

    We like to call BOB the Millennium Man, feet firmly planted in 2000.

    Here in this post he flirts with another derivation of the same initials and numbers. Mario Mendoza and .200.

    Maybe is would be better to class this post as being on the Interstate. Stuck in the potholes caused by paving your post with badly mixed metaphors from sportscasting.

    Really BOB? Rain Delay, that reminder that the timeless summer game of baseball is subject to seemingly endless interruptions beyond human control. From that you jump to a reference to a game derived to give pleasure to a populace reduced to droning to the repetitious and relentless beat of a clock?

    Jeez, and all this for an actor accused of dropping bombs? At least you could have said he was trying to be one of the M&M boys but wound up looking like he was auditioning for a part in the Broadway version of the Bronx Bombers instead. Then there would have been a connection for your mixed metaphor. And the reviews and results of the play would be equal to your post.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. $ 4 + bonus = $ 5.

      Delete
    2. Yes, Part 2 of what is sure to be several parts with multiple supplementals as soon as they cross Somerby's mind about the Great HBO Debate between the intellectual giants Ben Affleck and Bill Maher.

      You know, the debate that once and for all illustrates the Decline and Fall of Western Democracy because, after all, nobody ever said such mean things before.

      But let's give Bob credit for this. When Bob gloms onto a metaphor, by golly, he'll stick with it for days, regardless of whether he is the only person on earth who seems to know what the hell he is talking about.

      Delete
    3. We know what BOB is talking about. Of course, we are not from earth so you are correct.

      Delete
  8. i am glad bob proved me right and the trollz wrong about the bomber issue.

    ReplyDelete
  9. The Cleveland Indians used a racist stereotype in Chief Wahoo.

    Mike Hargrove is just a ballplayer from the early Boomerzoic Era nobody but a Boomer blogger would remember.

    Younger people don't care about them or Rachel either and keep informed other ways.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I've sent Somerby my troll toll. I hope you do the same and don't weasel out of it by pretending I haven't ante'd up.

      Delete




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  12. Liberals should dig in and fight like hell over a 15 year-old election. They shouldn't, however, fight like hell over racism. Or pretty much anything, although they should resent Rachel Maddow's smirk, or laugh, or whatever it is about her that annoyed Bob recently.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You can't fight racism by calling people names. That doesn't change anything -- not institutional racism and not interpersonal bigotry. What annoys Somerby most about Maddow is her dishonesty.

      Delete
    2. Of course you can fight racism by calling people names. Name calling has its place in the public sphere. So does displaying passion about things that are important to you, things that piss you off.

      I remember, 15 years or so ago, thinking the gay rights people were too extreme, too demanding, not patient enough, too uncompromising, too loud, and so on and so on and so on. I look at what they've accomplished, and realize now I was wrong and they were right. If you want something, you fight for it. You namecall. You battle, scratch, scream, throw glitter, put yourself in front of snarling dogs, whatever it takes. Because other people see that and realize you MEAN it. Sure, it might not leave a good impression, at the time. But it leaves an impression. And that's the point.

      To a degree, it's a squeaky wheel sort of thing. To another degree, it's a signal to other people who share your views that it's ok to actually stand up for what you believe in. Of course, to Bob, it's just counterproductive, because it's not done over his pet issue: the 2000 election. If Affleck had pitched a fit over Al Gore's mistreatment in 2000, I guarantee you Bob would have been applauding him.

      Delete
    3. Saying that Somerby's pet issue is the 2000 election is like saying that when a gay person throws glitter, it is about the glitter.

      Delete
    4. Not seeing the personal anger that motivates Bob's obsession with the 2000 election is like mistaking the smoke for the fire.

      Delete
    5. He never talks about the 2000 election. He talks about how the press treated Gore in the runup to it. I'm not sure you would spot a fire in your own backyard.

      Delete
    6. In fact, he talks about it all the time. Even when he talks about the runup to it, it's to complain about the outcome of the election itself as justification for his endless droning: "It put George Bush in the White House. How did you like that?" You're being intentionally stupid. Or maybe not intentionally.

      Delete
  13. Just to note that Maher has a history, of which Affleck seems more aware than Bob S and to which Affleck was responding, as well he should have.

    I have no idea what Bob S. thinks his analyses accomplish and have lost interest.

    ReplyDelete

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    Hello to every one out here, am here to share the unexpected miracle that happened to me three days ago, My name is Jeffrey Dowling,i live in Texas,USA.and I`m happily married to a lovely and caring wife,with two kids A very big problem occurred in my family seven months ago,between me and my wife so terrible that she took the case to court for a divorce she said that she never wanted to stay with me again,and that she did not love me anymore So she packed out of my house and made me and my children passed through severe pain. I tried all my possible means to get her back,after much begging,but all to no avail and she confirmed it that she has made her decision,and she never wanted to see me again. So on one evening,as i was coming back from work,i met an old friend of mine who asked of my wife So i explained every thing to her,so she told me that the only way i can get my wife back,is to visit a spell caster,because it has really worked for her too So i never believed in spell,but i had no other choice,than to follow her advice. Then she gave me the email address of the spell caster whom she visited.(bravespellcaster@gmail.com}, So the next morning,i sent a mail to the address she gave to me,and the spell caster assured me that i will get my wife back the next day what an amazing statement!! I never believed,so he spoke with me,and told me everything that i need to do. Then the next morning, So surprisingly, my wife who did not call me for the past seven {7}months,gave me a call to inform me that she was coming back So Amazing!! So that was how she came back that same day,with lots of love and joy,and she apologized for her mistake,and for the pain she caused me and my children. Then from that day,our relationship was now stronger than how it were before,by the help of a spell caster . So, was now stronger than how it were before,by the help of a spell caster . So, i will advice you out there to kindly visit the same website http://bravespellcaster.yolasite.com,if you are in any condition like this,or you have any problem related to “bringing your ex back. So thanks to Dr Brave for bringing back my wife,and brought great joy to my family once again.{bravespellcaster@gmail.com} , Thanks.

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