THE CALIBER OF OUR OWN DISCOURSE: Tsunami strikes!

WEDNESDAY, MARCH 4, 2015

Interlude—Patricia Arquette swept away:
Do women get paid 77 cents on the dollar, as compared to men, for doing the same work?

As far we know, no specialist or expert actually makes that claim. But we liberals love the claim. We often repeat the claim. People end up assuming it’s true.

Presumably, that explains why Rachel Maddow stated this claim on Meet the Press in April 2012 (see yesterday's post). And who knows?

Ten days ago, Patricia Arquette may have had this claim in mind when she accepted her Oscar as last year’s Best Actress in a Supporting Role:
ARQUETTE (2/22/15): To every woman who gave birth to every taxpayer and citizen of this nation, we have fought for everybody else’s equal rights. It’s our time to have wage equality once and for all and equal rights for women in the United States of America.
What did Arquette have in mind when she complained about the lack of “wage equality?”

Frankly, we have no idea. The conversation didn’t get that far. But then, it rarely does.

In what ways, and to what degree, are women underpaid, as compared to men, in the labor market? We liberals rarely waste our time fleshing out such questions.

As we create a brave new world rivaling that of Rush and Sean, we seem to enjoy our tribal cries more than real information or actual facts.

Back in 2012, Maddow showed so much devotion to the cause that she went on the air the following night and claimed that she had no idea why her statement about the gender wage gap had been challenged.

That statement was very hard to believe. Meanwhile, an expert appeared with gorilla dust to help our tribe through this rough patch.

So it has gone as our liberal tribe has emerged from its decades of slumber! In a sad but comic display, we’re building a set of dystopian claims which we very much like to recite. No one else believes these claims, but they fuel our emerging tribal vision;

Women are paid 77 cents on the dollar! One in five (or one in four) undergraduate women will be raped during college!

In the past year, we’ve even started making this misery-worshipping claim:

A majority of public school students live below the poverty line!

Two of those claims are simply false; the other claim seems methodologically shaky and hard to credit. But we seem invested in such claims, especially when our gloomy claims involve matters of gender or race.

In the meantime, we can’t bring ourselves to tell the world that black kids are doing much, much better in reading and math. Or that Hispanic kids are doing much, much better too.

Alas! As we’ll note in Friday’s report, even our very brightest young liberals keep repeating the standard silly claims about our miserable pitiful schools. We just can't seem to get it together about such basic issues!

Beyond that, we aren’t real keen on analyzing the ways the public is getting looted—in the ludicrous costs of our health care, for instance. We’d rather repeat our bogus claim about that 77 cents.

Seventy-seven cents on the dollar! Is that what Arquette had in mind when she spoke from the Oscar stage? We assume Arquette is a good decent person, but we have no real idea.

As we build our own liberal discourse, our emerging discourse rarely gets past the kind of recitation in which we make gloomy statistical claims which no one else believes. And sometimes, even that’s not enough! Consider the tsunami which hit Arquette after the Oscar show, when she made a clumsy presentation backstage.

For whatever reason, Arquette chose to speak about wage equality at the Oscars.

She made a somewhat grandiose speech, stressing her contact with experts mad geniuses. Backstage, she continued discussing her basic topic:
ARQUETTE: Equal means equal. The truth is, the older women get, the less money they make. The more children—the highest percentage of children living in poverty are in female-headed households.

It’s inexcusable that we go around the world and we talk about equal rights for women in other countries and we don’t—one of those superior court justices said, two years ago, in a law speech at a university, we don’t have equal rights for women in America, and we don’t because when they wrote the Constitution, they didn’t intend it for women.

So the truth is, even though we sort of feel like we have equal rights in America, right under the surface there are huge issues that are at play that really do affect women. And it’s time for all the women in America, and all the men that love women, and all the gay people and all the people of color that we’ve all fought for, to fight for us now.
To state the obvious, women should have wage equality—equal pay for equal work. As far as we know, no one argues against that.

It’s also true that the income gap between women and men creates a problem in a society where many children live in female-headed households.

We don’t think we’ve ever seen that situation discussed in a serious way. Imaginably, it might be a great idea if someone actually did!

What kind of “wage equality” does Arquette want everyone to fight for? We saw no sign, in her two statements, that she had a clear idea in mind. In the end, it didn’t matter.

Her fuzzy call for wage equality was quickly drowned out by liberal reaction to the part of her backstage statement we’ve highlighted above. Arquette was widely pounded—and sometimes tendentiously paraphrased—for the things she said.

Can we talk? That part of Arquette’s statement was clumsy, or at least imperfect. Continuing the grandiosity which marked her earlier statement, she seemed to say that “all we women” have fought for gay people and for people of color, a claim which is hard to credit.

Beyond that, it almost sounded like she was saying that the fight for gay people and for people of color had been won—that somehow, it had “now” become the time to fight for equality for women.

That framework doesn’t exactly make sense. This wasn’t a perfect statement.

Arquette, of course, is a film and TV actress. You can’t expect her to be an expert on a topic like this.

Still and all, we liberals might look to our journalists and our professors for analyses which are smart and helpful. Frequently, we don’t receive that type of service, especially in the fraught but delicious areas concerning gender and race.

We love to talk about gender and race—and gender and race are very important. In the process, though, we sometimes forget to talk, or at least to talk clearly, about dollars and cents.

When we do that, the plutocrats cheer. They love it when we do that!

On balance, our professors and journalists are fairly well paid. Corporate looting of dollars and cents may not massively matter to them.

But if they’re going to talk about gender and race, could they at least do so in a sensible way? In a way which doesn’t make the rest of the polity think our tribe is nuts?

In yesterday’s post, we thought we caught Professor Hartmann throwing gorilla dust around. Tomorrow, we’ll look at several professors discussing matters of race.

We liberals tend to defer to our professors. We tend to assume our professors are sharp.

Arguably, we should stop doing that. Have our vaunted professors, Hartmann included, perhaps been letting us down?

Tomorrow: Professors on the prowl!

53 comments:

  1. "We liberals tend to defer to our professors."

    If you say so, Bob. It would be rude indeed to ask you to produce any evidence supporting such a broad, general statement like that, or in fact any wild idea that crosses your mind as you sit at your keyboard, rushing to type it up.

    If only "we liberals" were more like "you neo-cons" and dismissed out of hand "our professors" (who are of course, without variance, ALL liberals like we are!).

    Then we too could be anti-intellectual nincompoops.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Please, sir. Do not confuse Bob Somerby with being one of us. We never believed Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. We only threw that out an an excuse.

      Delete

    2. i want to share a testimony of my life to every one. i was married to my wife amanda, i love her so much we have been married for 9 years now with two kids. when she went for a vacation in italy, she meant a man called antonio whom charm her with his beauty, she told me that she is no longer interested in the marriage any more. I was so confuse and seeking for help, i don't know what to do until I met my friend Miss Corte and told her about my problem. she told me not to worry about it that she had a similar problem
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      Delete

    3. i want to share a testimony of my life to every one. i was married to my wife amanda, i love her so much we have been married for 9 years now with two kids. when she went for a vacation in italy, she meant a man called antonio whom charm her with his beauty, she told me that she is no longer interested in the marriage any more. I was so confuse and seeking for help, i don't know what to do until I met my friend Miss Corte and told her about my problem. she told me not to worry about it that she had a similar problem
      before and introduce me to a man called Dr OKIKA who cast a spell on her ex and bring him back to her after 2days. Miss Corte ask me to contact Dr OKIKA. I contacted him to help me bring back my wife and he ask me not to worry about it that the Gods of his fore-fathers will fight for me. He told me by two days he will re-unite me and my wife together. After two day my wife called and told me she is coming back to sought
      out things with me, I was surprise when I saw her and she started crying for forgiveness and that she never knew what came upon her that she will never leave me again or the kids. it was the spell that was cast on her that was working on her. Right now I am the happiest man on earth for what this great spell caster did for me and my wife, you can contact Dr. OKIKA on any problem in this world, he is very nice, here is his contact OKIKASPELLTEMPLE@YAHOO.COM or OKIKASPELLTEMPLE@GMAIL.COM You can also contact him through his mobile: +2348134367919. He is the best spell caster.
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      Delete
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      Delete
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      Delete
  2. Note the difference between equal opportunity vs. equal outcome. Nobody should be denied opportunity because of race, sex, religion, sexual orientation, etc. But, there's no guarantee that these groups will have the same outcome. And, different outcomes don't prove discrimination.

    E.g., gay men are disproportionately successful in the theatre. Blacks are disproportionately successful in professional basketball. These different outcomes do not prove discrimination against straights or whites.

    OTOH a Princeton study showed that blacks and Hispanics were accepted with lower SATs than white, and whites were accepted with lower SATs than Asians (on average). This shows unequal opportunity. It's discrimination against Asians, even though the outcome is that Asians are disproportionately accepted.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "E.g., gay men are disproportionately successful in the theatre. Blacks are disproportionately successful in professional basketball."

      Gawd, what a bigot!

      Now tell me David, hoping some more stereotypes pop into your head, exactly how are gays "disportionately successful" in theatre, or blacks "disproportionately successul" in basketball" compared to straights and white men?

      Even if your stereotypes were true, could "equal opportunity" have anything to do with that?

      And exactly what do you mean by "disproportionately"? You mean they are taking something that they don't deserve?

      Delete
    2. Gawd, what an ignoramus!

      Here's a few more: Jews are disproportionately represented in ivy league academics. Asians are disproportionately successful in computer science. Indians are disproportionately successful in medicine.

      Hint: if you can't suspend your disbelief about such commonly accepted realities of life in America for the sake of discussion, then no one is going to want to discuss anything with you.

      Delete
    3. Wow! It's "Let's Pull Stereotypes Out Our Asses" Time! Can I play? Jews are also "disproportionately successful" in finance. Asians are "disproportionately successful" in the restaurant business. Indians are "disproportionately successful" in convenience store management.

      Is that what you call "discussion"?

      Since David won't answer, how about you giving it a crack? Exactly how are any of those ethnic/racial/religious groups "disproportionately successful" in those fields? Because a lot of them are successful?

      Delete
    4. Mid-century eastern Irish Catholics were disproportionately successful in starting the Iraq War.

      Delete
    5. Mexicans are disproportionately successful at vegetable picking.

      Delete
    6. Old white male bloggers are disproportionately successful at simultaneous bogus attribution and denunciation of claims.

      Delete
    7. Hey, 1:36, "Disproportionate" simply means proportions are unequal. So, the % of NBA players who are black is a lot greater than the proportion of blacks in the population. That's simply a numerical fact. It's not prejudice.

      A disproportion becomes a stereotype only when it's applied to everyone in the group. It's a fact that blacks are better basketball players on average. It's a stereotype to assume that every black person is good at basketball.

      Delete
    8. Yeah, Dave. Why do blacks gripe so much? After all, they got the NBA. What more do they want?

      Sorry, Dave, but using basketball as an argument that equal opportunity exists everywhere is about as stereotypically racist as you can get.

      Note, I didn't call it predudice. I called it racist.

      Delete
    9. Anon 7:18 PM --I used basketball as an example to demonstrate a general principle. Namely, that a difference in outcome doesn't prove a difference in opportunity.

      Delete
    10. Dr. Ben Carson used prison sex as an example to prove he is better at apologies than some.

      Delete
    11. "I used basketball as an example to demonstrate a general principle."

      I cherry-picked basketball, as opposed to polo, baseball, football, or curling, as cannon-fodder to support my racist ideology./thesis.

      FTFY - you're welcome.

      Delete

    12. i want to share a testimony of my life to every one. i was married to my wife amanda, i love her so much we have been married for 9 years now with two kids. when she went for a vacation in italy, she meant a man called antonio whom charm her with his beauty, she told me that she is no longer interested in the marriage any more. I was so confuse and seeking for help, i don't know what to do until I met my friend Miss Corte and told her about my problem. she told me not to worry about it that she had a similar problem
      before and introduce me to a man called Dr OKIKA who cast a spell on her ex and bring him back to her after 2days. Miss Corte ask me to contact Dr OKIKA. I contacted him to help me bring back my wife and he ask me not to worry about it that the Gods of his fore-fathers will fight for me. He told me by two days he will re-unite me and my wife together. After two day my wife called and told me she is coming back to sought
      out things with me, I was surprise when I saw her and she started crying for forgiveness and that she never knew what came upon her that she will never leave me again or the kids. it was the spell that was cast on her that was working on her. Right now I am the happiest man on earth for what this great spell caster did for me and my wife, you can contact Dr. OKIKA on any problem in this world, he is very nice, here is his contact OKIKASPELLTEMPLE@YAHOO.COM or OKIKASPELLTEMPLE@GMAIL.COM You can also contact him through his mobile: +2348134367919. He is the best spell caster.
      His website: okikaspelltemple.webs.com

      Delete
  3. "outcomes don't prove discrimination."

    You might want to check in with the Dept. of Justice on that.

    "These different outcomes do not prove discrimination against straights or whites."

    They don't prove anything, in fact.

    "a Princeton study"

    Is that a study one of the little cartoon birds tweeted to you while flitting around your head, or do you have a link?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hello i want to share a testimony about a great who helped me out in restoring my relationship back, My ex girl friend, left me for no reason and start following another guy, i was so confused don't know what to do, i tried all my best to convinced her to come back, she refused and decided to stay with the guy, i know we were good and my mind told me that we are bound to live together, so one faithful morning, i called my best friend and explain to him, he told me to read about spell casters online on the internet and choose anyone, which i did read many on the internet and finally my hearts chooses dr osumandi because he has the best testimonies online, so i write to himm, he told me what to do and which i did he promised me with this words that after 48hrs my ex lover is going to run back to me in her knees and apologise for her wrong so luckily, after 48hrs my lover really run back fell on her knees and apologise and ask for forgiveness and so nice and she has changed totally and she is now better more than as it was before. i will love all my friends and brothers in christ and those who always surf the internet asking for help to also contact dr osumandi and he is willing to help you, contact him via OSUMANDITEMPLE@GMAIL.COM

      Delete
  4. Lee's next slide shows three columns of numbers from a Princeton University study that tried to measure how race and ethnicity affect admissions by using SAT scores as a benchmark. It uses the term “bonus” to describe how many extra SAT points an applicant's race is worth. She points to the first column. African Americans received a “bonus” of 230 points.

    She points to the second column. “Hispanics received a bonus of 185 points.”

    The last column draws gasps. Asian Americans, Lee says, are penalized by 50 points — in other words, they had to do that much better to win admission.

    “Do Asians need higher test scores? Is it harder for Asians to get into college? The answer is yes,” Lee says.


    http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-adv-asian-race-tutoring-20150222-story.html#page=1

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Well, David. We all know we can't trust any of those pointy-headed perfessers and their gobbly-gook "studies."

      Funny you should cite that in this very post.

      Delete
    2. Of course, it's beyond obvious to David that a black kid from an inner city school and a low income family with an SAT of 1300 cannot hold a candle intellectually with a kid from Andover with a well-prepped 1540. After all, intellectual capacity is measured by the SAT.

      Delete
    3. So David thinks a link to a news story about a presenter mentioning an 11-year-old study is a link to the study itself.

      Interesting.

      Delete
    4. "Interesting."

      But hardly surprising.

      Delete
    5. Or he owns stock in HS2, the test prep company profiting off of Asian parental fears.

      By the way, you gotta love this line from the article DinC linked:

      "Last year, a rumor that Harvard University would stop accepting any more Asian American students from San Marino High School spread like a trending hashtag."

      Delete
    6. Yes, not only do we have Princeton study, but we have a trending hashtag of a Harvard rumor. Bet Yale and Columbia feel left out. And nobody ever thinks of Brown, Cornell, Dartmouth or Penn.

      Delete
    7. urban legend -- From what I've read, the blacks who get accepted to top schools are typically not poor, inner city kids. They're more like my (half-black) cousins D and L, who went to Princeton and Yale. Their upper middle class parents have between them a Ph.D., in Electrical Engineering, a Ph.D. in English and an MD.

      Delete
    8. Before we move totally away from the topic (although with Bob and David in Cal we will always circle back) lets look briefly at the Princeton Study our man of many cousins always cites.

      The Famous Princeton Admissions Study

      1) Is eleven years old (2004)

      2) Uses data from admissions that range from 18 to 32 years old (1997, 1994, 1983)

      3) Comes from all of 3, unnamed, universities.

      4) Comes from only 1 university which could supply GPA and Class Rank data along with SAT scores.

      5) Applied a static average number for the SAT points "advantage" and "disadvantage" of being a member of one group over another even though those numbers declined over time in their study.

      6) Made observations about being the child of an alumni or an athlete which never seem to be discussed by those who trot out this quite dated piece or work.

      For those who enjoy reading rather than simply writing accusations, you may find the study here:

      http://www.princeton.edu/~tje/files/files/webAdmission%20Preferences%20Espenshade%20Chung%20Walling%20Dec%202004.pdf

      Delete
    9. Easy to see why racist a**hat David in Cal avoided providing the link. This is how ideology-driven liars roll.

      Delete
  5. "Consider the tsunami which hit Arquette after the Oscar show, when she made a clumsy presentation backstage."

    Fortunately for Arquette, she managed to grasp some slippery gorilla dust and slither her way to safety before she drowned.

    Kristof on the other hand, wasn't so lucky. As the tsunami washed over him he was crucified. Because he doesn't care about his dead friend's kids, he will not be rising again. In fact, he may go to the other place. Which we frankly don't believe in but your results may differ.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You be unfamiliar with the Somerby School of Rhetorical Seismology. It is the only institute which not only studies the Greek Origin* of tsunami scholarship, it names them like hurricanes.

      As best we can tell, the wave which overwhelmed Arquette was "Katie" a tsunami of maoist or stalinist origin from the lower Salon regions of the Cook Strait off Hollywood.



      *As early as 426 BC the Greek historian Thucydides inquired in his book History of the Peloponnesian War about the causes of tsunami, and was the first to argue that ocean earthquakes must be the cause. He would may have believed Aristotle behaved clowinishly after tsunami, but he died too young to know so tragically we, too, just don't know.

      Delete
  6. Replies
    1. Me too. Especially the part about cheering plutocrats. That causes more shame among Bob's trolls than a ton of gorilla dust in the mist.

      Delete
    2. I also hold this post in high esteem.

      But is it a double-double or quadruple down?

      Delete
  7. "We love to talk about gender and race—and gender and race are very important. In the process, though, we sometimes forget to talk, or at least to talk clearly, about dollars and cents.

    When we do that, the plutocrats cheer. They love it when we do that!

    On balance, our professors and journalists are fairly well paid. Corporate looting of dollars and cents may not massively matter to them.

    But if they’re going to talk about gender and race, could they at least do so in a sensible way? In a way which doesn’t make the rest of the polity think our tribe is nuts?"

    There is a very legitimate point in here, but we white men are not the ones to dictate when and how the subjects will be raised. Those who consider themselves part of the aggrieved population will raise them when and how they want to. Black people will get angry when they see a black kid killed under circumstances they find it hard to believe would have had the same result for a white kid. Women will get mad when they believe they are getting paid less for the same work -- which the Census Bureau found happens to some extent in almost every occupation they identified separately, a fact which fits with the words Rachel Maddow on her show and on "60 Minutes" actually used -- or when they believe they are facing cultural pressures that keep them from advancing as far as their abilities will take them.

    Everyone knows the "77 cents" statement, besides quoting a specific figure used by the Census Bureau that can be compared to previous surveys and therefore can be used to indicate progress as well as, in a general sense, remaining gaps, is a short-hand figure that has all kinds of causes. Therefore, the obsession with trying to claim, falsely, that Rachel Maddow once or twice came close to implying that it means 77 cents "for the exact same work" is just wasted energy. The same with rubbing hands in glee over the relatively small error in statements that a "majority" of public school kids live in poverty -- when the truth is that sbetween 30% and 40% live in poverty under the unique U.S. official poverty threshold -- unique probably because the U.S. was the first to try to measure poverty and has not wanted to shift to the international standard because it does not want to give up the ability to do historical comparisons -- and between 40% and 50% of kids are from households of sufficiently low income (and meet a standard that for some purposes has been officially recognized by the Department of Education as a measure of poverty) as to meet the standard of poverty as defined by the rest of the OECD, of which the U.S. is a member.

    The focus on these little arguable but truth-containing buzz-phrases and building an enemies list among prominent journalists considered to be liberal diminishes the legitimate message identified above. If the focus were on the substance of the deficient work as it has been on the Gore, national healthcare costs, Hillary in 2008 and education issues rather than demonizing the person or specific wording of legitimate issues, it would be harder to say that this once (and still occasionally) valuable blog has lost its way.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. There is no reason why we can't use legitimate statistics instead of flawed factoids to make our arguments. It just takes a little more effort.

      Delete
    2. There is also no reason to attrribute statements to people who never made them. Nor is there a reason to berate people for saying things which are true by stating something which is false. Unless you are a pathologhical liar.

      Somerby wrote several posts about a guy named Brian Williams. Williams's documented lies embellished events in his personal past. Somerby's are about other people and matters of law and public policy. Both indicate a mindset more than a fraction off center.

      I wonder what people would find if they looked into the few facts we know about the personal story of Bob.

      Delete
    3. Why don't you investigate yourself and tell us what lies you've told. Writing a blog doesn't make Somerby a public figure. Your comment sounds like a threat to invade his privacy. Acting on it would make you real scum. Even the trolls won't speak to you if you take a political blog topic and make it a personal attack like that. I think you need to backtrack on that real fast.

      Delete
    4. Well I hadn't thought about life without the camaraderie and conversational companionship of the trolls. Why if even they won't speak to me I might have to spend my life consoling weeping imaginary analysts.

      OK. I backtrack on my wondering out loud (er, on-line). Just don't go bragging to the trolls and claim you are the one who caused me to do it. If they think I'm a wuss they will never make me a "made" troll and let me in their Guild.

      Delete
    5. (Best George C. Scott Voice): You can't launch personal attacks here, you perspiring, piddling, pants-stuffing. orange-shoe-wearing clown of an underage, elitely educated pseudo-liberal who cares nothing about children! This is The Daily Howler!

      Delete
    6. Gack! @ 10:34

      You sound like a potato dodging, gorilla dust spreading, brain injured, excessively literalist paid troll. Nobody else except those with symptoms of mental illness would dare turn the words of a national treasure who points out the naked emperor against him.

      Your divisiveness is applauded only by plutocrats.

      Delete
  8. Try to imagine this Washington Post headline and story, but written by a man about women or white about black. Not to mention there is so much unfathomable stupid in the article it boggles the narcissistic mind.

    "Study shows men are more narcissistic than women. Surprises no one."

    ReplyDelete

  9. i want to share a testimony of my life to every one. i was married to my wife amanda, i love her so much we have been married for 9 years now with two kids. when she went for a vacation in italy, she meant a man called antonio whom charm her with his beauty, she told me that she is no longer interested in the marriage any more. I was so confuse and seeking for help, i don't know what to do until I met my friend Miss Corte and told her about my problem. she told me not to worry about it that she had a similar problem
    before and introduce me to a man called Dr OKIKA who cast a spell on her ex and bring him back to her after 2days. Miss Corte ask me to contact Dr OKIKA. I contacted him to help me bring back my wife and he ask me not to worry about it that the Gods of his fore-fathers will fight for me. He told me by two days he will re-unite me and my wife together. After two day my wife called and told me she is coming back to sought
    out things with me, I was surprise when I saw her and she started crying for forgiveness and that she never knew what came upon her that she will never leave me again or the kids. it was the spell that was cast on her that was working on her. Right now I am the happiest man on earth for what this great spell caster did for me and my wife, you can contact Dr. OKIKA on any problem in this world, he is very nice, here is his contact OKIKASPELLTEMPLE@YAHOO.COM or OKIKASPELLTEMPLE@GMAIL.COM You can also contact him through his mobile: +2348134367919. He is the best spell caster.
    His website: okikaspelltemple.webs.com

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  10. An amazing testimony on a spell caster who brought my husband back to me.. My name is Natasha Johnson,i live in Florida,USA,and I'm happily married to a lovely and caring husband ,with two kids. A very big problem occurred in my family seven months ago,between me and my husband .so terrible that he took the case to court for a divorce.he said that he never wanted to stay with me again,and that he didn't love me anymore.So he packed out of the house and made me and my children passed through severe pain. I tried all my possible means to get him back,after much begging,but all to no avail.and he confirmed it that he has made his decision,and he never wanted to see me again. So on one evening,as i was coming back from work,i met an old friend of mine who asked of my husband .So i explained every thing to him,so he told me that the only way i can get my husband back,is to visit a spell caster,because it has really worked for him too.So i never believed in spell,but i had no other choice,than to follow his advice. Then he gave me the email address of the spell caster whom he visited.{bravespellcaster@gmail.com}. So the next morning,i sent a mail to the address he gave to me,and the spell caster assured me that i will get my husband back the next day.What an amazing statement!! I never believed,so he spoke with me,and told me everything that i need to do. Then the next morning, So surprisingly, my husband who didn't call me for the past seven {7}months,gave me a call to inform me that he was coming back.So Amazing!! So that was how he came back that same day,with lots of love and joy,and he apologized for his mistake,and for the pain he caused me and my children. Then from that day,our relationship was now stronger than how it were before,by the help of a spell caster. So, i will advice you out there to kindly visit the same website { http://enchantedscents.tripod.com/lovespell/},if you are in any condition like this,or you have any problem related to "bringing your ex back. So thanks to the Dr Brave for bringing back my husband ,and brought great joy to my family once again. {bravespellcaster@gmail.com }, Thanks..

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  11. Dr Lordtigo is like a father to the fatherless.. i never believed these will really make a change in my marriage, and i never have it in my thought that i could ever been with my husband Mr Devis after divorcing and ending our 33years marriage.... My life was upset i never knew where to start from when my husband broke up with me.....My name is Tanisha Devis from Poland but got married and live in Chicago USA, LORDTINGOTEMPLE@GMAIL.COM is the right email address to contact for an urgent help in getting your lover back.... My husband and I have been together for 33years before he divorced me and i was so upset because i thought i have lost my marriage forever... i did all i could to please for my husband to bring me back home but all to be in vain.. i had to travel away from my state because i was not having anywhere to stay because my home was not conducive for me to stay because my husband want me out of th house, i travel to a friend of mine in California, one night, when i was searching on a good spell caster results that help in bringing back lost lover's and husband's, i found an interesting story that was shared by Santana Valdez From Texas Huston, about a good spell caster called Dr Malawi,and how he helped her in getting her husband back home, and i decided to put a try in contacting him... he replied me back.. i thought at first these was just normal and he told me that i was going to get back my husband after a period of 28hours i still doubted him.... But today as i am sharing these good news is for me to express my experience to all the whole universe that these is a good spell caster that helps in bringing back lost lovers and he is.or call +2348077922360 I am happily with my husband and my 3 kids, TARRY, WENDY, JEFF... great LORDTINGO i thank you for helping me to get my family back.... his email address is (LORDTINGOTEMPLE@GMAIL.COM)

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  12. hello i am from the USA, i want to share a testimony about the great spell caster who brought my lover back to me after three days of casting the spell, i have a little misunderstanding with my lover and he got agree with me and left me for another woman, i tried all my best to apologise to him and bring him back to me, to no avail nothing work out, i cried all day and night because i have missed him so much and need him back to me but he is not giving me the chance, on one faithful morning, i was on my fb account talking to an old friend of mine, i explaned everthing to her off what i am passing through, she told me not to worry about anything that she has encounter the same problem with me before that she is going to direct me to a great dr who helped her before in bringing her divorce husband back to him, he told me about great DR.PROPHET ELVIS OSEMUDIAMEN, he told me that his work is sure and guarantee and his love spell is the best and last forever, i took dr details from her, and i contacted dr, we both spoked on phone and chat through email also, he told me that, he don't charge for his spell works but there will be materials needed to cast the love and return spell on my lover and i will be the one to provide the money before it will work, i said no problem i send him the money after 24hrs he told me that he has through with the work that the next day my lover is going to come back to me and kneel down before me and beg for forgiveness, i beleived him and have faith on him, i was so flabbergasted really the next day according to dr words of wisdom and courage my lover run back to me and beg for forgiveness on his kneels and i forgive him, it has been going to two months now we are not having any problem no quarrel or misunderstanding anymore, i am sharing this on the internet because i know there will many people also out there having same problem with thier relationship, i am advising that you should not loose any faith or hope that this dr is out there and willin to help anyone who seek for his help. contact DR today via perfectlovespelltemple@hotmail.com
    You can also read more about him today via his websites http://drprophetelvisosemudiamen.webs.com/
    you can also contact me stellajames817@gmail.com if there is any question to ask about great Dr

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  13. An amazing testimony on a spell caster who brought my husband back to me.. My name is Olivia Phimzile,i live in Florida,USA,and I'm happily married to a lovely and caring husband ,with two kids.A very big problem occurred in my family seven months ago,between me and my husband .so terrible that he took the case to court for a divorce.he said that he never wanted to stay with me again,and that he didn't love me anymore.So he packed out of the house and made me and my children passed through severe pain. I tried all my possible means to get him back,after much begging,but all to no avail.and he confirmed it that he has made his decision,and he never wanted to see me again. So on one evening,as i was coming back from work,i met an old friend of mine who asked of my husband .So i explained every thing to him,so he told me that the only way i can get my husband back,is to visit a spell caster,because it has really worked for him too.So i never believed in spell,but i had no other choice,than to follow his advice. Then he gave me the email address of the spell caster whom he visited.{supremetemple@hotmail.com}. So the next morning,i sent a mail to the address he gave to me,and the spell caster assured me that i will get my husband back the next day.What an amazing statement!! I never believed,so he spoke with me,and told me everything that i need to do. Then the next morning, So surprisingly, my husband who didn't call me for the past seven {7}months,gave me a call to inform me that he was coming back.So Amazing!! So that was how he came back that same day,with lots of love and joy,and he apologized for his mistake,and for the pain he caused me and my children. Then from that day,our relationship was now stronger than how it were before,by the help of a spell caster. So, i will advice you out there to kindly visit the same email supremetemple@hotmail.com,if you are in any condition like this,or you have any problem related to "bringing your ex back. So thanks to the Dr PAPA for bringing back my husband ,and brought great joy to my family once again. {supremetemple@hotmail.com}, or call +27611734184 Thanks.

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  14. BE CAREFUL HERE NOBODY CAN HELP YOU HERE OR EVEN SUGGEST HOW YOU CAN GET YOUR EX OR LOVE BACK,ANY TESTIMONIES OF MOST SPELL CASTER HERE MUST BE IGNORE.BECAUSE MOST OF THEM ARE SCAM I MEAN REAL SCAM WHICH I WAS A VICTIM AND I GOT RIPPED OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS BECAUSE I WAS SO ANXIOUS TO GET MY WIFE BACK AFTER SHE LEFT ME FOR OVER 2 YEARS WITH MY 7 YEARS OLD SON JERRY,I HAVE APPLIED TO 7 DIFFERENT SPELL CASTER HERE AND ALL TO NO AVAIL THEY ALL ASK FOR SAME THING SEND YOUR NAME YOUR EX NAME ADDRESS AND PICTURE PHONE NUMBER ETC WHICH I DID OVER AND OVER AGAIN AND MOST OF THEM WERE FROM WEST AFRICA UNTIL I SAW A POST ABOUT MAMA ANITA SPELL AND I DECIDED TO GAVE HER MY LAST TRAIL.SHE ASK ME FOUR THINGS MY REAL NAME,MY EX AND MY EX MOTHER NAME AND $380 AND SAID MY EX WILL COME BACK IN 24HOURS, I HAVE PAID OVER $3000 ON SPELL CASTING AND COURIER AND NOTHING HAVE WORK FOR ME AFTER 3 DAYS I WAS THINKING ABOUT HOW MUCH I HAVE LOST SO FAR SO I SAID LET ME GIVE HER A TRY SO I CALLED HER AGAIN AND SEND MY REAL NAME,MY EX AND MY EX MOTHER NAME AND THE $380 BECAUSE I SWEAR IT WAS MY LAST TRY SO I WAS WAITING AS SHE TOLD ME TO WAIT TILL NEXT DAY AND I COULD NOT SLEEP THAT NIGHT BECAUSE I REALLY LOVE MY WIFE AND WANT HER BACK AT 9PMTHAT DAY I SAW MY WIFE ON LINE ON FACE BOOK AND SHE SAID HI AT FIRST I WAS SHOCK BECAUSE SHE NEVER TALK WITH ME FOR THE PAST A YEAR AND 9 MONTH NOW I DID NOT REPLY AGAIN SHE SAID ARE YOU THERE? I QUICKLY REPLY YES AND SHE SAID CAN WE SEE TOMORROW I SAID YES AND SHE WENT OFF-LINE I WAS CONFUSED I TRY TO CHAT HER AGAIN BUT SHE WAS NO MORE ON LINE I COULD NOT SLEEP THAT NIGHT AS I WAS WONDERING WHAT SHE IS GOING TO SAY, BY 7.AM THE NEXT MORNING SHE GAVE ME A MISS CALL I DECIDED NOT TO CALL BACK AS I WAS STILL ON SHOCK AGAIN SHE CALL AND I PICK SHE SAID CAN WE SEE AFTER WORK TODAY I SAID YES SO SHE END THE CALL IMMEDIATELY I GOT OFF WORK SHE CALL ME AND WE MEET AND NOW WE ARE BACK AGAIN I CALL MAMA ANITA THE NEXT DAY THANKING HER FOR WHAT SHE HAS DONE IN FACT I STILL CALL HER AND THANK HER AS MY LIFE WAS NOT COMPLETE WITHOUT MY WIFE PLEASE BE CAREFUL HERE I HAVE BEEN SCAM THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS IF YOU WANT A TRUE LOVE SPELL THEN CONTACT MAMA ANITA (mamaanita.lovespellsolution@gmail.com) or mama.anitaspellcraft@hotmail.com

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