LIBERALLY LOATHING: Confronting the bigots!

MONDAY, APRIL 6, 2015

Part 1—Indiana is Selma:
By last Tuesday, debate about Indiana’s “Religious Freedom Restoration Act” had become the focus of the nation’s culture wars—the endless series of division-and-conquest fights which makes the plutocrats glad.

That morning, the New York Times published three letters about the new debate. By happenstance, all three letters voiced the view of the Times editorial board, whose editorial about the topic appeared on the very same page.

(Two days later, the Times published eight more letters on this topic. Extending a pattern, all eight letters agreed with the Times’ editorial view.)

Tuesday’s letters appeared beneath this heading: “Outrage Over an Anti-Gay Law in Indiana.” In our view, all three letters engaged in variants of a practice we’d describe as “liberal loathing”—a practice which was quite widespread last week.

Here at THE HOWLER, we don’t like the practice we call “liberal loathing.” We haven’t liked it for a very long time.

We think the practice tends to be dumb; we think it tends to be counterproductive. We think the practice is mean-spirited. Sometimes, the practice turns ugly.

That said:

Does our tribe’s penchant for “liberal loathing” advance progressive interests? On balance, we’d guess that it doesn’t. But however our alleged loathing may play out in our long-run political battles, we’d have to say that our liberal loathing is quite unattractive.

In fairness, milder forms of our loathing are frequently expressed in ways which are genteel and high-minded. On the other hand, in comments at Salon last week, our loathing was more often expressed in the familiar, undisguised language of the mob.

As we all know within our own tribe, our liberal loathing is built on the noblest intentions. That said, the world’s mobs have always parsed things that way as they’ve rampaged through the streets.

All three letters last Tuesday were built upon noble intentions. That said, we thought each letter displayed some aspect of our liberal loathing, which we view as one of the plutocrats’ most useful tools.

The first letter asked several questions about the new law which were perhaps slightly dumb. “How is...this discriminatory law any different from laws that restricted rights for blacks before the passage of the Civil Rights Act 50 years ago?”

On its face, that question was fairly dumb. It’s strange to think that a newspaper would choose it to lead its letters section that way.

The third letter adopted a dramatic, self-glorying framework. It compared Indiana to Selma as a “defining moment in American history.”

We liberals have often adopted such frameworks in recent years. Like high-minded Walter Mittys, we picture ourselves on the ramparts of history in ways we simply are not.

Whatever happened in Indiana last week, it pretty much wasn’t Selma. On the surface, this is what seemed to be at stake:

As best anyone was able to say, at issue was your ability to get your wedding ceremony catered by the caterer of your choice. That isn’t nothing, of course. Depending on where they live, a gay couple could imaginably have a hard time getting a florist to service their wedding.

That certainly wouldn’t be nothing. On the other hand, this wasn’t exactly Selma, no matter how much we liberals may long to convince ourselves of our vast historical greatness.

Frequently, that was the way we pictured last week’s fight. Then too, there was our frequently horrible execution of the high-minded battle we waged:

Good lord! As we liberals expressed our moral greatness—the sense that we are straight outta Selma—we landed on a small-town pizza joint whose owners had said that they, as Christians, wouldn’t want to cater a gay wedding ceremony, which they apparently regard as a religious event.

Just for the record, they only said this when a TV reporter came to them and asked them about it. They said they have always served everyone in their store, and no one seemed to say different.

They said it was only the ceremony they didn’t want to participate in—and that the issue had never arisen in their nine years in business.

Alas! Asked by a hard-charging reporter, a young woman in a small pizza joint gave this unfortunate answer. Many of us liberals proceeded to behave in heinous ways, leading us back to the second letter which appeared in last Tuesday’s Times.

The letter came from Newton, Mass., one of our finer districts. Its writer spoke with great authority about the claims involved in this matter, as if he’d just come down from the mountain bearing the latest tablets.

As we’ll be noting all this week, we liberals tend to declaim in these ways when we get a snootful or two:
LETTER TO THE NEW YORK TIMES (3/31/15): First, the title of the law—the Religious Freedom Restoration Act—is shameless Orwellian doublespeak. The people of Indiana have not been deprived of their “religious freedom.” Fortunately, the First Amendment to the federal Constitution guarantees that freedom.

And in seeking to defend the new law, Gov. Mike Pence wonders, “The issue here is, you know, is tolerance a two-way street or not?” The governor is confused. Vulnerable minorities, like gays and lesbians, do not have an obligation to tolerate others’ intolerance of them.

N— K—
Newton, Mass.
Has anyone in Indiana “been deprived of their religious freedom?” This bearer of tablets simply announced in his epistle that actually no, they have not.

Conflict resolved!

After that, he spoke to the heart of the matter. Unfortunately in our view, this is often the essence of us:

“Vulnerable minorities, like gays and lesbians, do not have an obligation to tolerate others’ intolerance of them.”

Let us translate, perhaps unfairly:

In matters like this, We liberals don’t have to “tolerate” Them. They have to “tolerate” Us!

They are required to “tolerate” Us! Tribal groups have always parsed the world in precisely that manner.

They will have to tolerate Us! We won’t have to tolerate Them! All week long, we’ll consider the wisdom and justice of that approach to this particular dispute. We’ll consider where this attitude takes our plutocrat-friendly national politics.

As the week proceeds, we’ll bring one more note of sadness in. In modern times, we liberals are strongly inclined to parse the world in the way the Times did in its editorial.

The board was speaking loudly last Tuesday, as it so frequently does in the reign of Andrew Rosenthalicus.

Right from the jump, the board employed one of our favorite frameworks. Hard-copy headline included:
NEW YORK TIMES EDITORIAL (3/31/15): In Indiana, Using Religion as a Cover for Bigotry

Gov. Mike Pence of Indiana, who last week signed a religious-freedom law driven by bigotry against gays and lesbians, has been complaining that the law’s opponents—which include top business leaders and civil-rights groups — are spreading “misinformation.”

It is true that the law does not, as some opponents claim, specifically permit businesses to refuse to serve gays and lesbians. Its drafters were too smart to make that explicit. Instead, the law allows individuals or corporations facing discrimination lawsuits to claim that serving gays and lesbians “substantially” burdens their religious freedom.

But nobody is fooled as to the law’s underlying purpose...
The law was “driven by bigotry,” the high-minded board quickly thundered. Luckily, no one’s been fooled about that within our tribe, despite the cleverness of The Others.

Was the Indiana law driven by bigotry? We would be slow to make that claim, but then we aren’t Moses, or the Emperor Rosenthalicus, or even The Amazing Kreskin. In our view, the various emperors in our tribe could stand to quiet down a tiny tad too.

Warning! We won’t be playing our “Dr. King card” until the end of the week! Until that time, we’ll explore a set of questions about the liberal loathing which was on wide display last week.

In the main, we won’t be asking you to examine the merits of the first Indiana law, or of the later amended version. We’ll be asking you to think about the reactions and attitudes which were on wide display within our tribe last week.

In the main, we’ll be asking you to think about Us, not about Them! Every so often, a minor amount of introspection can help dissipate a false spring.

We’ll be asking several questions. Is it possible to view the young woman at that pizza joint except through the lens of “bigotry?”

We’ll even be asking you this:

Is it possible that some consideration might be extended in some way to people whose religious traditions disapprove of same-sex marriage? Is it possible to imagine doing that, even if we think those traditions and views are possibly just a bit dumb?

We’ll ask you to notice who our reporters ran to interview last week. We'll also ask you to notice who our reporters avoided.

At some point, we’ll even ask if we liberals might possibly have a hint of “intolerance” within our own imperfect souls! Though tribal groups have always known how to answer such questions.

Sifting the rubble of last week’s fight, we’ll be asking those questions anyhoo. We’ll start with just one small request:

Try not to answer with claims about Them when we ask you to think about Us.

Tomorrow: The group we love to loathe versus those we pass over

This morning's background reading assignment:: Reread your Rose Of Sharon!

70 comments:

  1. Fu** tolerance.
    We'll take equality.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. We are all equal in that our government cannot force us to engage in expressive actions counter to our sincerely held religious beliefs.

      Delete
    2. How do you define "sincerely held beliefs"?
      Does "I believe it, so it's a sincerely held religious belief", suffice?
      In the case of the pizza joint inIndiana. What is their "sincerely held religious belief"? Per their statements, they will serve the gay community, just not cater same-sex nuptials.


      What, exactly, keeps me from not paying any taxes to a government which kills, if I claim it is counter to my "sincerely held religious belief"?

      Delete
    3. "Per their statements, they will serve the gay community, just not cater same-sex nuptials. "
      In this case, not catering a same-sex wedding is a political belief, not a religious belief.

      Delete
    4. 12:33, the Court unanimously agreed the Hobby Lobby case, the beliefs were sincerely held. Courts ultimately decide the reasonability of the claim first and seek to balance it with state interests. It will be subjective but it is more than a matter of one proclamation.

      Compelling state interest keeps us all paying taxes against conscience.

      Delete
    5. 1:05, it is consistent with the religious beliefs of many if not most Christians to not discriminate against gay persons for being gay, while simultaneously believing it violates one's beliefs to expressly support or profit from certain conduct, including gay marriage, polygamous marriage or certain categories of monogamous heterosexual marriage.

      Delete
    6. The pizza place in question doesn't cater, so it is a moot point.

      It does seem a bit over the top to call other people's religious beliefs bigotry.

      Delete
    7. 5:03 PM,
      Not really. If you read the Bible with the stories of Jesus' radical politics of loving all man (even his enemies), but your takeaway is a distaste of homosexuality, you're a bigot.
      Sorry if that truth gives you a sad.

      Delete
    8. Most of the practice of modern Christianity has little to do with Jesus.

      Delete
    9. None of the business owners have said they would not serve people of all sexual orientations.

      Delete
    10. "None of the business owners have said they would not serve people of all sexual orientations."

      They just say they should have the right to do so.

      Delete
    11. "1:05, it is consistent with the religious beliefs of many if not most Christians to not discriminate against gay persons for being gay, while simultaneously believing it violates one's beliefs to expressly support or profit from certain conduct..."

      Yes, who could forget their refusal to pay their taxes for the Iraq War.

      Delete
    12. 8:32, they say they should have a right not to promote certain conduct, such as gay marriage, polygamous marriage, and certain categories of heterosexual monogamous marriage.

      1:05, certain taxes cannot be refused on the basis of conscience due to significant state interests.

      Delete
    13. "..and certain categories of heterosexual monogamous marriage."

      i.e. inter-racial marriage.

      Delete
  2. Here's a poster from C&L, calling himself "my main man" nailing it:

    "This is isn't even about Religion or freedom at all. This is about the hertiage foundation and Alec and other groups like that trying rabble rouse the lunatics so they are ready for the next election cycle. Thats exactly what this is..."

    Now, Bob, explain how "we liberals" are supposed to deal with this crap..

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Motives for enacting the law are unimportant in the question of whether the First Amendment protects business owners from engaging in certain practices opposed to their religious beliefs. Hillary Clinton defended the RFRA passed in the 90's while criticizing its current use on the absurd basis that "a different time" now.

      Delete
    2. Motives for writing an anti-Hillary Clinton comment are unimportant to the topic of the comment in response to which it is written.

      That said, I am not sure if, in asking Bob to explain something, Anonymous @ 10:57 meant the term "this crap" to apply to Indiana law or the Crooks and Liars comment.

      Delete
    3. And if you think the marriage institution is necessitated by something other (or more than) "heterosexual production"?

      Delete
  3. " a gay couple could imaginably have a hard time getting a florist to service their wedding.

    That certainly wouldn’t be nothing."

    That is a matter of opinion. If you're one of many, including some gays, who believe gay marriage is ridiculous as the marriage institution is only necessitated by heterosexual reproduction, then it is in fact nothing. Furthermore, there is nothing bigoted or anti-gay about thinking so.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Even more-so, if you think the marriage institution isn't even necessitated by heterosexual reproduction.

      Delete
    2. When I go into the wedding cake business I will not sell cakes to any Catholic who has no presented proof of recent confession.

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    3. If you don't think the marriage institution is necessitated by heterosexual reproduction, you would be hard-pressed to come up with any reason it should involve secular government at all. You would also likely be comfortable in locations in which the institution has become culturally obsolete, like Detroit and DC.

      Delete
    4. And if you think the marriage institution is necessitated by something other (or more than) "heterosexual production"?

      Delete
    5. Then you probably don't understand the notion of male ownership?

      Delete
    6. 1:02, do you mean in the hypothetical absence of the fact of heterosexual reproduction? What would that basis be?

      Delete
    7. 2:45,
      No. Heterosexual reproduction is a fact.
      It's not a fact of marriage (for many), and it is not the only basis for marriage (by many more).
      See as proof, both, heterosexual reproduction outside of marriage and no reproduction within heterosexual marriages.

      Delete
    8. The frequency of heterosexual reproduction outside marriage and no reproduction within do not demonstrate that the only rational basis for a secular society to involve itself in marriage at all is to obligate heterosexual parents to their children, and each other for the benefit of their children, after having determined preservation of the nuclear family is of critical importance to all involved in it and in the larger society.

      What other interest would there be?

      Delete
    9. Property concerns with marriage are also about the fact of heterosexual reproduction.

      Delete
    10. Or maybe reproduction serves the need to keep property in the family. I'm guessing you are in your teens given your preoccupation with sex.

      Delete
  4. "Is it possible that some consideration might be extended in some way to people whose religious traditions disapprove of same-sex marriage? Is it possible to imagine doing that, even if we think those traditions and views are possibly just a bit dumb?"

    Can't we oppose a badly written law simply on the grounds it is badly written?
    Even Arizonans thought so, which is a giant leap for mankind.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Liberals are to blame for getting all panty twisted over passage of a silly law the purpose of which nobody can explain. You'd think they had better things to do than be concerned with things like laws.

    ReplyDelete
  6. “Vulnerable minorities, like gays and lesbians, do not have an obligation to tolerate others’ intolerance of them.”

    In fact they do. Blacks have an obligation to tolerate KKK marches through their towns. There are many intolerant things we are all obligated to tolerate under the First Amendment.

    Most progressives accidentally reveal they would prefer that were not so.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Most people who try and define what "most progressives" do, don't do, think, or don't think are generally stupid individuals
      regardless of their political beliefs. You and Bob are a nice match in that regard although we are sure you differ on many matters.

      Delete
    2. There is no question most progressives believe the government should force religious Indiana bakers to cater gay weddings and other events in violation of their religious beliefs.

      Delete
    3. If you're in the business of secular activity (e.g. baking and selling cakes), your religion is irrelevant.

      Delete
    4. Good to know a Jewish baker should be forced to make a swastika birthday cake for the local KKK Grand Wizard on the basis that not doing so is "anti-white" and his religion is irrelevant anyway.

      Delete
    5. I don't think this is true.
      Race, Creed, Color, and sexual orientation are covered. Nothing about the customer's political beliefs.

      Delete
    6. One's political belief as determined by his religion is a political belief and a religious belief.

      Delete
    7. 3:20 PM,
      So your argument is that the KKK Grand Wizard's beliefs (to use 3:09AM's example) is determined by his religious belief?
      Mind blown. I thought those like the KKK Grand Wizard (and the religious right) were bigots first, and ran to their religion to justify their bigotry.
      It's no wonder the signers of the US Constitution wanted to keep religion out of the government.

      Delete
    8. The KKK Grand Wizard might or might not base his bigotry in religion, but that does not entitle anyone or any government to compel the Jewish Baker to express support for his conduct or beliefs in the form of a swastika cake.

      If the KKK only permitted white membership and based its beliefs in religion, the Jewish baker is prohibited from discriminating on the basis of religion or race so must allow him to order a cookie, but should not be forced to perform acts of expression supporting the belief or the race such as creating a swastika or "white power" cake. The gay (or non-gay) baker who believes in gay marriage should not be forced to create a Leviticus cake with "We oppose gay marriage" written on it for a church function.

      Regardless of the opinion of groups who deeply regard the messages as either offensive or righteous.

      Alternatively, if white KKK members become influential enough, they can insist the Jewish baker's belief system not be tolerated and theirs be affirmatively embraced by him, whether he likes it or not.

      Delete
    9. "Alternatively, if white KKK members become influential enough..."

      Yet another reason to stop electing conservatives.

      Delete
  7. The Emperor Rosenthalicus.

    A clever display of tolerance from Baltimore Bob the blogger.

    So Bob, please tell us what Religious Freedom needed an act of restoration in Indiana in the first place. You can do it as an addendum
    sometime during your week of loathing the loathers.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. And ruin his schtick? Not a chance in hell.

      Delete
  8. No, Bob.

    I won't give those bigoted Hoosiers a pass. It's 2015 Bob. Back in the 19th century, another group oF bigots used their religion to justify slavery.

    No pass for the past.

    ReplyDelete
  9. As an old white guy, 66, I grew up in the 50s. We attended an integrated church (Cleveland east side) and integrated schools (East Cleveland.) When we travelled my father had to explain what the signs meant in restaurants that said, "we reserve the right not to serve you." I was eleven. I never had to travel the road many of my friends did. But I got a long look down that road and it was ugly. I see no need to have to return to those days. If you are in the business of serving the public, then serve the public.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. As an old white guy, 64, I grew up in the 50s. My mother was excommunicated from her church for getting married a second time to my father. Our home was deed restricted against black and Jews. The public schools I attended were not officially segregated because no black people were allowed to live in the district.

      When we travelled, hamburger joints sometimes had windows outside with signs saying "colored window." All of the water fountains and restrooms were officially marked for use by "white" and "colored." My father told me the town he grew up in had a billboard at the edge of town that read:
      "Nigger Don't Let the Sun Set on You in Dxxxxx, Oklahoma."

      I never had to travel the road many of my friends did because my parents, like their damn ancestors, blocked their path on the roads I used. It was ugly. I have worked most of my life to change it.

      I agree with Dave Tucker. I am disappointed that Bob Somerby has taken a fork in the road and seems to be circling back in defense of those who have put up and manned the roadblocks
      to all societal change.

      Delete
    2. As an old Christian guy, I remember seeing photographs in 2015 of Christians lined up on a beach to get their heads sawed off and massacred in Kenya for failing to express a belief different from their sincerely held religious belief.

      I remember Christians in America being forced by the gay mafia to close their shops for refusing, or saying they would refuse, to express a belief different from their sincerely held religious belief.

      The gay mafia hopes to force Christians to write out congratulatory statements on wedding cakes, but to exempt gay sign makers from producing signs that say "GOD HATES FAGS" or gay bakers from producing cakes that read "We oppose gay marriage" (even though religious groups are protected as well as blacks and gays, and should be permitted to demand any service from any business).

      If civil liberties are important to you, you're on the wrong side of this issue.

      Delete
    3. That is, religious groups are as protected as gays and blacks where the right to -be served- is concerned.

      Delete
    4. And "sincerely held religious belief" means what? Can it mean anything I say I sincerely believe due to religion?
      Is MY interpretation of the Bible (including picking and choosing what I want to believe) good enough?


      Delete
    5. It can mean anything you sincerely believe, and is then balanced against state interests.

      The wisdom and importance of placing religion alongside protections around speech, expression, and press in the First Amendment do not seem well-apprehended by the left.

      Delete
    6. The state has a strong interest in making business rules uniform, and not be based on the whims of one's religious beliefs.

      Delete
    7. There is no absence of uniformity in permitting all business owners to choose to refrain from acts of expression supporting conduct that violates their religious beliefs.

      Consider the "progressive" alternative of forcing all business owners to perform acts expressing support for conduct that violates their sincerely held beliefs, or face penalties.

      Delete
    8. Sorry. I still think the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was in the states interest.

      Delete
    9. The easiest way to end this mess is to abolish all religion.

      Delete
    10. And replace the constitution with "Imagine"

      Delete
    11. "If you are in the business of serving the public, then serve the public."

      Considering an attitude of "you didn't build this" the line separating public and private is quickly deteriorating. Banishing unpopular ideas and opinions to the private sphere quickly leads to those only either capable of living independently like the wealthy or those privileged enough to be immune from criticism being able to hold or espouse such opinions. While mildly ironic that only the rich and certain protected classes could thrive in such an environment, the amusing aspect and s just how ultimately dull such a world would be.

      Delete
  10. Islam is substantially more homophobic than Christianity. So, why have liberals attacked Christians on this issue, but left the Muslims alone?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. More precisely, the actions of ALEC.

      Delete

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    ReplyDelete
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  14. My husband cheated on me for Almost three years. he ignore me for several months and left me with nothing, but i am happy today that Chief Nwaluta brought my husband back, I am so happy, Now my husband is all mine again. I can now say I'm happy again. Great spell from Chief Nwaluta, Chief Nwaluta is genuine. I truly believe in him and his spells. he is a professional. , My name is Sandra Gault and I live in Bryan Texas, My husband and i got married for more than 11 years and have gotten two kids. thing were going well with us and we are always happy. until one day my husband started to behave in a way i could not understand, i was very confused by the way he treat me and the kids. later that month he did not come home again and he called me that he want a divorce, i asked him what have i done wrong to deserve this from him, all he was saying is that he want a divorce that he hate me and do not want to see me again in his life, i was mad and also frustrated do not know what to do,i was sick for more than 2 weeks because of the divorce. i love him so much he was everything to me without him my life is incomplete. i told my sister and she told me to contact a spell caster, i never believe in all this spell casting of a thing. i just want to try if something will come out of it. i contacted Chief Nwaluta for the return of my husband to me, they told me that my husband have been taken by another woman, that she cast a spell on him that is why he hate me and also want us to divorce. then they told me that they have to cast a spell on him that will make him return to me and the kids, they casted the spell and after 1 week my husband called me and he told me that i should forgive him, he started to apologize on phone and said that he still love me that he did not know what happen to him that he left me. it was the spell that he Chief Nwaluta casted on him that make him come back to me today,me and my family are now happy again today. thank you Chief Nwaluta for what you have done for me i would have been nothing today if not for your great spell. i want you my friends who are passing through all this kind of love problem of getting back their husband, wife , or ex boyfriend and girlfriend to contact Chief Nwaluta,if you need his help you can contact him through his private E-mail:{ Nwalutaspelltemple@gmail.com } or you can contact him through his Web site :http://nwalutaspelltemple.blogspot.com. Thanks you Chief Nwaluta.

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  15. A broken marriage can be one of the most painful things to heal from and can take a very long time to heal. During these times it can feel like the whole world could light up in flames and it still couldn't compare to the pain inside. My name is Nicole Cottrell form UK, I have been in great bondage for almost 2 years suffering in the hands of a cheating husband, we were happy and leaving well until he meant his old time girl friend and he started dating her outside our marriage before you knew it he stopped caring and taking care of his own family to the extent that he was planning to get married to her and divorce me, i cried and reported him to his family but he never listened to any one but to cut my story short i came in search for a real spell caster who could destroy their relationship and make him come back to me and our 2 kids on my search i saw people making testimony on how their marriage where restored by Chief Nwaluta Mallam Zack i pick his email and i narrated my story to him and he agreed to help me and after performing a spell on the second day both of them had a quarrel and he beat his girlfriend up and he came home begging for me and our little kids to forgive him that his eyes are clear now that he will never do any thing that will hurt his family again and promise to be a caring father and never cheat again. I am so happy that i did not loose him to the girl. all appreciation goes to Chief Nwaluta Mallam Zack for he is a Great spell caster and to whom this may concern if you have a cheating husband or wife or you need your ex lover back again. you can as well email him on { Nwalutaspelltemple@gmail.com } and this man made me to understand that there are only 8 real spell caster in Africa.

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  16. How to solve relationship and married problem !!

    I can say am the happiest woman on earth because of what Dr Frank Ojo has done in my life for restoring happiness and love back to my family. My name is Helene Wilson. I'm happily married to a lovely and caring husband with two kids. A very big problem occurred in my family seven months ago,between me and my husband .so terrible that he took the case to court for a divorce.he said that he never wanted to stay with me again,and that he didn't love me anymore.So he packed out of the house and made me and my children passed through severe pain. I tried all my possible means to get him back,after much begging,but all to no avail.and he confirmed it that he has made his decision,and he never wanted to see me again. So on one evening,as i was coming back from work,i met an old friend of mine who asked of my husband .So i explained every thing to him,so he told me that the only way i can get my husband back,is to visit a spell caster,because it has really worked for him too.So i never believed in spell,but i had no other choice,than to follow his advice. Then he gave me the email address of the spell caster whom he visited.{Templeofloveandprosperity@gmail.com}. So the next morning,i sent a mail to the address he gave to me,and the spell caster assured me that i will get my husband back the next day.What an amazing statement!! I never believed,so he spoke with me,and told me everything that i need to do. Then the next morning, So surprisingly, my husband who didn't call me for the past 9 months,gave me a call to inform me that he was coming back.So Amazing!! So that was how he came back that same day,with lots of love and joy,and he apologized for his mistake,and for the pain he caused me and my children. Then from that day,our relationship was now stronger than how it were before,by the help of a spell caster. So, If you have any problem contact him, I give you 100% guarantee that he will help you, Thanks to Dr Frank Ojo for bringing back my husband ,and brought great joy to my family once again, SO HERE HIS EMAIL ADDRESS { Templeofloveandprosperity@gmail.com } WEBSITE ADDRESS : http://lovespell2.yolasite.com, Thanks you Dr Frank Ojo, i Helene will always be testifying about your good work.

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  17. Hello, is good I inform all the men and guys out there, that sometime we all make mistakes in our relationship and made our relationship to be broken and is also our responsibility to make it work by seeking for solution to it, I'm very happy today to tell you little of my relationship problem, i cheated once on my wife and she caught me and she was ready to end our marriage because i truly love her i quickly seek for solution to stop her that is when i came across Dr.Ekpen temple who has help so many people restore their broken marriage and relationship i also contact him today my marriage is restored, I'm going to drop his contact so that does having the same issues can contact him for solution on (ekpentemple@gmail.com) or +2347050270218.

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  18. Just few weeks ago I saw a comment about Dr. Ekpen Temple, someone talking about how he has help him in his relationship break up, I also contacted him because i was facing the same problem in my relationship, today i can boldly recommend Dr. Ekpen Temple to someone who is also facing break up in his or her relationship to contact him for help today because he has help me restore my relationship back to normal, here is he contact details (ekpentemple@gmail.com) or whatsapp him on +2347050270218

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