THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 21, 2019
...the problem we all live with: We're afraid that we've spent the bulk of the day watching the bulk of the hearings. Along the way, we even had a computer meltdown!
For today, we're glad that Fiona Hill spoke up on behalf of Kenneth Vogel's reporting. We were intrigued by her statement that Christopher Steele got played, though we still don't know to what extent that assessment may be accurate.
More than anything else, we thought we saw the current version of the problem we all live with. Since there will be no hearings tomorrow, we'll try to explain what we mean.
We'll probably start with the mugging and clowning we get on our own cable channel. Mugging and clowning is Trumpism too. Trumpism didn't begin with Trump, and the Trumpism could get worse before it ever gets better.
What is the problem we all live with? Of one thing we can be sure—your excellent question is anthropological, pretty much all the way down!
Tomorrow: Days of impeachment end
Even if you consider Trump's actions assuming that his beliefs about the Bidens and the Ukraine are all true, his offenses are still impeachable. When you consider that the conspiracy theories were made up to manipulate him, then there are others who need to be held responsible beyond Trump and beyond Roger Stone. When you consider that the conspiracy theories were made up and spread to benefit Russia, then those actions rise to treason and the crimes are even more serious. But there is no way to see the facts as exculpatory, innocent or in any way justifying Trump's actions with respect to Ukraine.
ReplyDeleteIf we are to unite our country, it must be upon the bedrock of our constitution and our republic. Anything or anyone who works against that foundation can be judged as needing change. If that means we must throw out party labels and redefine what it means to be partisan, that's happened before.
It won't matter who is nominated if we cannot hold Trump and his associates responsible for their crimes.
Meanwhile, Somerby thinks that mugging and clowning are the problem.
DeleteNot really. We are torturers and warmongers. On both sides. Obama was a torturer and a murderer. Trump is a torturer and a murderer. Torture and murder are violations of the Constitution as are all of our illegal wars ane many other violations.
DeleteYour little cherry pick is cute and pins you as one of the gullible. One of the TV babies. Enjoy your little fantasy show.
Anything goes!
DeleteYou're going to have to take a number to get in line to shoot a cop.
"bedrock of the Constitution", that has to be the dumbest defense of this idiotic impeachment sideshow.
DeleteSo Trump shouldn't demand corrupt nations we're giving money to investigate corruption, in the event that said corruption involves potential political opponents?
DeleteWhat even is the value of this whole Ukraine thing? What is the value in fighting Russia? What is the supposed point?
Well, maybe this is the point: a simple distraction PSYOP, to take attention away from what they do:
DeleteAmid Impeachment Circus, Dems Sneak PATRIOT Act Renewal Past The American People
...plus they are shitting bricks waiting for developments of that 'origins of russagate' investigation. Trying to inoculate themselves.
DeleteSo Trump shouldn't demand corrupt nations we're giving money to investigate corruption, in the event that said corruption involves potential political opponents?
DeleteLet’s leave aside the absolutely risible notion that the Grifter-in-Chief was interested in corruption, whether in Ukraine or anywhere else. Instead, let’s pretend that your question has merit, and rephrase it as “What should Trump have done if he felt that corruption in Ukraine was a problem and that said corruption involved his potential political opponents?”
A number of things come to mind. Trump could have requested that US aid to Ukraine be contingent on a Presidential finding. Or Trump could have asked Congress for a recision of the aid. Or Trump could have invoked our mutual legal assistance treaty with Ukraine, which would have made his AG responsible for exchanging information with Ukrainian officials about criminal acts committed by Americans in Ukraine.
The problem with these legal courses of action is that there was no evidence against the Bidens, père et fils. Outside of right-wing fever dreams, no one even suspected them of criminal activity.
So instead, Trump withheld military aid in return for an announcement from the President of Ukraine of an investigation into the Bidens. This led thereby to two problems: (1) Trump requested the intervention of a foreign country in a US election and (2) Trump impounded Congressionally authorized appropriations. Both of these actions were illegal. The first violated US election laws; the second was an abuse of power under Train v City of New York, 420US35 (1975).
What even is the value of this whole Ukraine thing? What is the value in fighting Russia? What is the supposed point?
This is a separate matter, one not germane to the question of Trump’s treason, bribery, and high crimes and misdemeanors.
"The problem with these legal courses of action is that there was no evidence against the Bidens", blah, blah, blah, zombie talking point.
DeleteThe lady doth protest too much, methinks.
https://www.monmouth.edu/polling-institute/reports/monmouthpoll_us_100219/
"The Monmouth poll also finds that 43% of registered voters believe Trump’s claim that Biden probably did pressure Ukrainian officials to keep them from investigating his son’s business interests there. This compares to 37% who say that Biden probably did not do this and 20% who are unsure. Among self-identified Republicans and Republican-leaning voters, 67% say Biden probably did this and 15% say he did not, with 17% being unsure. Among self-identified Democrats and Democratic-leaning voters, 21% say Biden probably did this and 60% say he did not, with 18% being unsure. Among true independents, 39% say Biden probably did this and 27% say he did not, with 34% being unsure."
deadrat - start on page 33 and read carefully from there.
DeleteGet back to the herd, sheep boy.
Mao, thanks for making my point for me. If there were evidence, you could cite it. Polls of what people believe are evidence of nothing more than what people believe.
DeleteYou're welcome, dembot. If your "outside of right-wing fever dreams, no one even suspected them of criminal activity" is a zombie newspeak equivalent of 'a large plurality of the registered US voters', then yes, the point stands. Sorry, I'm not as fluent in your newspeak as I would like to be.
DeleteAs for the strict legalsms that you require (though only for this particular category of crimes: crimes associated with your zombie cult), you may want to examine the sworn affidavit of Mr Shokin, direct witness of the above-mentioned criminal activity. You can find it here: witness statement of Viktor Shokin, among many other places.
Excerpt:
“The truth is that I was forced out because I was leading a wide-ranging corruption probe into Burisma Holdings, a natural gas firm active in Ukraine, and Joe Biden’s son, Hunter Biden, was a member of the Board of Directors.
On several occasions, President Poroshenko asked me to have a look at the criminal case against Burisma and consider the possibility of winding down the investigative actions in respect of this company, but I refused to close this investigation. Therefore, I was forced to leave office under direct and intense pressure from Joe Biden and the Obama administration. In my conversations with Poroshenko at the time, he was emphatic that I should cease my investigations regarding Burisma. When I did not, he said that the US (via Biden) were refusing to release the USD$ 1 billion promised to Ukraine. He said that he had no choice, therefore, but to ask me to resign.”
Hope it helps.
https://cdn.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/427618359-Shokin-Statement-1.pdf
DeleteWhat difference does it make if Biden is guilty as fuck? Investigate his ass. Fine. But that doesn’t require Trump to engage in an illegal shakedown of Ukraine to get that to happen. Even if Biden is guilty, Trump is also guilty of crimes.
DeleteWhat crimes, dembot?
Delete“56 percent of Americans agree that Trump has committed an impeachable offense.”
Delete(Share of respondents in an Ipsos/FiveThirtyEight poll who said they think Trump has committed an impeachable offense)
If public opinion is good enough to convict Biden, it’s good enough to convict Trump.
Replace “crime” with “impeachable offenses” if it makes you feel better.
First of all, dembot, 56 percent of Americans do not agree that Trump has committed an impeachable offense. I don't know where you got this dembottery.
DeleteAnd who said that public opinion is good enough to convict anyone? Voices inside your zombie head?
The dembot above claimed that "outside of right-wing fever dreams, no one even suspected them [Bidens] of criminal activity", and I demonstrated that it was a dembot lie. That's all.
Poll: 70% of Americans say Trump's Ukraine actions were 'wrong,' 51% want him removed
Delete(https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/11/18/poll-seventy-percent-trump-ukraine-actions-wrong/4227312002/)
If you want to play the poll game...
No, I don't, dembot.
DeleteI'm quite satisfied with you admission that Creepy Joe and his son are very likely a couple of criminals, who should be investigated and, with any luck, tried and convicted. And then sentenced to a jail term with confiscation of property. Actually, I'd be satisfied with just the confiscation of property.
Karma, man. Karma.
You, just like Trump, want Biden convicted and removed from the race. Coincidentally, Biden leads Trump in all head-to-head matchups, so it’s no wonder you and Trump want Biden gone or tainted. Trump is terrified he’ll lose in a fair election.
DeleteI feel your pain.
But dembot, I thought you believe that “56 percent of Americans agree that Trump has committed an impeachable offense”.
DeleteAnd if that's true, your zombie cult has nothing to worry about: it's virtually impossible for your zombie cult to lose.
Relax.
Well, unless, of course, all of you, zombies, are concentrated in New England, NY, and California.
As for "tainted", didn't you, at 11:17 AM, called him "guilty as fuck"? And if it wasn't you, what are you doing masquerading as someone else?
Right-wingers waiving away treason against the United States of America is the least surprising thing to happen in my lifetime.
DeleteI wasn’t careful enough. And, of course, I deserve what I get for engaging with a troll. No one suspected the Bidens of criminal activity before trumpbots like you started broadcasting your nonsense.
DeleteAnd speaking of criminal activity, trumpbot, where’s the evidence? Hell, I’ll settle for any specific allegation, something any legitimate criminal case starts with. Got anything, troll?
I didn’t think so.
I don’t know what “strict legalisms” means here. This isn’t something I require. The law in this country requires very strict legal guidelines. Trump strayed over the line. I notice you don’t even try to gainsay that claim.
Imagine my surprise.
No, I’m not interested in the self-serving “sworn affidavit” of Shokin, a notoriously corrupt prosecutor. His own deputy repudiated the claims in that affidavit. The Ukrainian legislature removed Shokin for his corrupt operation of the prosecutor’s office. The “investigation” Shokin claimed he was conducting into Burisma covered a time period before Hunter Biden took his position on Burisma’s board.
You may want to examine the statement of Shokin’s successor, Lutsenko. You can find it here:
“From the perspective of Ukrainian legislation, he did not violate anything,” former Ukrainian prosecutor general Yuri Lutsenko told The Washington Post in his first interview since the disclosure of a whistleblower complaint alleging pressure by President Trump on Ukraine’s president, Volodymr Zelensky.
Hope it helps.
If you don’t mind, I’m going back to ignoring you, troll.
And even if you do.
"And speaking of criminal activity, trumpbot, where’s the evidence?"
DeleteDembot, are you dumb? We've already gone through this: the sworn affidavit signed by Mr Shokin, the person in the center of the affair.
"No, I’m not interested in the self-serving “sworn affidavit” of Shokin, a notoriously corrupt prosecutor."
That's fine. However, if you aren't interested in something, it doesn't disappear from the universe.
Also, wasn't it you who just yesterday passionately insisted that calling someone corrupt doesn't make it so? Not to mention that it's utterly irrelevant whether Mr Shokin is corrupt or not. It only matters if the affidavit is accurate.
"The Ukrainian legislature removed Shokin for his corrupt operation of the prosecutor’s office"
That's another dembot lie. The parliament voted precisely to approve his resignation on his own free will.
" The “investigation” Shokin claimed he was conducting into Burisma covered a time period before Hunter Biden took his position on Burisma’s board."
It's irrelevant what crimes of Burisma were investigated. Buisma paid Creepy Joe's Mafia Family to protect Burisma, and that's what Creepy Joe did.
"former Ukrainian prosecutor general Yuri Lutsenko told The Washington Post"
Someone who has no direct knowledge of the events in question expressed his opinion, in an interview. That's fine, but irrelevant.
Lutsenko also said Yovanovitch ordered him not to prosecute criminals under her protection. In that one, he was a direct witness. So, then, Lutsenko is the one to be trusted by you dembots? Good.
We've already gone through this….
DeleteSorry, I so rarely read your comments that I probably missed your previous attempts. But this effort actually seems like an argument. Not one supported by fact, but not simply trollery either. Are you feeling all right?
Mr Shokin, the person in the center of the affair.
Mr Shokin was in the center of many affairs. Look up the Diamond Prosecutor affair.
[I]i you aren't interested in something, it doesn't disappear from the universe.
Trumpbot, please. I’m not claiming Shokin’s self-serving statement has disappeared from the universe. I’m saying that it’s not good evidence of anything.
Also, wasn't it you who just yesterday passionately insisted that calling someone corrupt doesn't make it so?
Don’t think so, but I’m getting decrepit in my old age. Of course, calling someone corrupt doesn’t make it so, just as a demonstrably-corrupt prosecutor signing an affidavit doesn’t make the claims of the affidavit so.
The parliament voted precisely to approve his resignation on his own free will.
Bwahahahaha. Of his own free will! Oh, Trumpbot, that’s adorable.
It's irrelevant what crimes of Burisma were investigated.
Oh, that goes without saying. It’s even irrelevant whether “crimes of Burisma” existed at all. All that matters, as Zelensky found out, is that a nebulous, unsubstantiated charge be made and a non-existent “investigation” be announced.
Someone who has no direct knowledge of the events in question expressed his opinion, in an interview. That's fine, but irrelevant.
Trumpbot, please. Lutsenko succeeded Shokin as Prosecutor General. It’s your opinion that’s fine but irrelevant.
So, then, Lutsenko is the one to be trusted by you…?
Right back atcha, Trumpbot. I’ll see your Shokin and raise you a Lutsenko. Whaddaya got?
Bupkis.
"I’m not claiming Shokin’s self-serving statement has disappeared from the universe. I’m saying that it’s not good evidence of anything."
DeleteDembot, you demanded a legal evidence. A sworn affidavit signed the direct witness, who is also the main participant, in the center of the affair in question, is definitely legal evidence, as good as anyone could possibly hope for.
If it doesn't satisfy you, an anonymous commenter, tsk, alas, it's not possible to please everyone. Not to mention: to please a dembot.
However, if you're implying that Mr Shokin was lying in a sworn affidavit, then you're accusing Mr Shokin of a crime.
Plus, if indeed Mr Shokin lied in that affidavit, he is certainly guilty of defamation, damaging your granddaddy's, Creepy Joe's, good name and reputation.
Naturally, I suggest this crime should be thoroughly investigated, and Mr Shokin, should he be found guilty, is severely punished.
So, I guess it's investigation either way, dembot. And since your granddaddy has nothing to fear from this investigation, I am puzzled - puzzled! - that he's fighting tooth and nail to avoid it...
A sworn affidavit signed the direct witness, who is also the main participant, in the center of the affair in question, is definitely legal evidence, as good as anyone could possibly hope for.
DeleteOh, Shokin was definitely a “main participant,” a most amusing euphemism. And “as good as anyone could possibly hope for”! Bwahahahahahaha! Oh, Trumpbot, please stop. You’re killing me with this. I will say that Shokin’s affidavit is at least as reliable as Michael Flynn’s statements to the FBI about his contacts with the Russian ambassador.
Naturally, I suggest this crime should be thoroughly investigated, and Mr Shokin, should he be found guilty, is severely punished.
Sure thing, Trumpbot. Take your suggestion to the Ukrainian authorities.
(By the way, Trumpbot. If Shokin’s affidavit ever made it to a US court to be laughed out of, it would be testimony, thereby privileged, and ineligible for an action for defamation.)
Is Biden “fighting tooth and nail to avoid investigation”? How could he even do that? An investigation would be initiated by the Department of Justice, an agency over which neither Biden has any influence. I wonder why they haven’t started an investigation? No evidence, absolute immunity, and no jurisdiction would be my guess, but hey, what do I know?
I’ll tell you what, Trumpbot. After your errand at the Ukrainian embassy (3350 M St NW), drop by the Department of Justice (950 Pennsylvania Avenue NW) to tell them to investigate. It’s less than three miles. You could walk it. You could even pass the White House on your way.
Let me know how that works out for you.
Here, dembot, Creepy Joe affair update, for your reading pleasure:
Deletehttps://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/state-department-releases-detailed-accounts-biden-ukraine-corruption
Contact your spiritual zombie-adviser, and ask for more doubleplusgood talking points.
Thanks, Trumpbot, for the link to right-wing site for anonymous wingnuts.
DeleteDetailed account? Bwahahahahahaha!
You mean the account where Yuriy Lutsenko, former Prosecutor General of Ukraine and now under indictment for abuse of power, says that he believes that Hunter Biden got lotsa money from Burisma. backing this claim with some unposted document from Latvia (!) that doesn’t list any amounts?
The Yuriy Lutsenko, the Prosecutor General with no legal training, who hassled Marie Yovanovitch, our Ambassador to Ukraine, whom Rudy Giuliani slimed and got fired? The Yuriy Lutsenko who claimed Yovanovitch gave him a do-not-prosecute list that he admitted didn’t exist? The Yuriy Lutsenko who has said that any legal action against the Bidens must be initiated by the US?
That Yuriy Lutsenko?
Trumpbot, please. When I asked for evidence, I expected at least the section of the United States Code that Hunter Biden was supposed to have violated.
None of this says that Hunter Biden is on the side of the angels. But you’re gonna have to do better than claims about Latvian documents that don’t even specify the amounts of corrupt money that Biden was supposed to have handled.
Hey, Trumpbot! Who do you suppose will be indicted first, Hunter Biden or Rudy Giuliani?
C’mon, Trumpbot, ‘fess up. You’re just trolling me, right?
Well, troll better.
'Mugging', dear Bob? I'm glad you realize that your zombie politicians are muggers, but I don't see how it's a 'Trumpism'. In fact, it's the opposite of Trumpism. Trumpism is peace and prosperity and minimum bullshit.
ReplyDeleteYou're talking like a word-salad dembot, dear Bob, and you really should try to avoid becoming one.
And same goes for clowning, incidentally. He does much less of it than your zombie politicians, and, unlike them, he even occasionally tells the truth, straight-up, which is refreshing.
Don't get your panties in a bunch, Mao. Republicans in the Senate aren't going to vote to convict Trump. You couldn't find 20 people of the 100 million who call themselves Republicans in this country, who have a problem with treason against the United States of America.
DeleteI'm guessing TDH will ignore impeachment and complain about Maddow or about something that happened in 1999, which is par for the course for the Trumptard that he is.
ReplyDeleteYou'll rue the day you didn't appreciate his wise council as you're pressed into the camps. I'll laugh, and will not feel sorry. Not a bit sorry.
DeleteWhat makes you think you won’t be in those same camps, anon 11:24?
Delete"... we're glad that Fiona Hill spoke up on behalf of Kenneth Vogel's reporting."
ReplyDeletehttps://www.cjr.org/public_editor/biden-vogel-nyt-ukraine-hunter.php
What's next, Somerby: a 3-week series on John Solomon's journalistic greatness?
And Somerby has never praised Vogel himself. As a matter of fact, Somerby never once mentioned Vogel’s recent stories about the Bidens, all while he was complaining that news orgs weren’t looking into it.
DeleteHey Bob. Another one of you favorite subjects:
ReplyDeleteNYTimes Pans "Cult Leader" Gabbard's White Pant Suit After Praising Hillary For Same Outfit
Alas, it's not one of your zombie gods who is being smeared here, so you'll probably nod in agreement...
Ha ha ha ha.
DeleteThe Times didn't even refer to her white hood.
Mugging and clowning are part of teaching. It is hard to imagine Somerby was a good teacher when he abhors mugging and clowning.
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