The things you get told along the way!


In this case, RE Carter Page:
It's possible that your lizard brain won't like our topic today.

So it goes in this veil of tears! That said, we plan to continue with our rumination concerning the things you were told, along the way, concerning Carter Page.

We can't give you the full story concerning Carter Page. That said, it never seemed especially likely to us that he was part of some major intrigue. Beyond that, we often noted the way our favorite stars were spinning the facts about Page—for example, by playing brain-dead semantic games about his "meetings" with Russkie officials and about the "documents" he was said to have handed over to Russkie spies.

For various fairly obvious reasons, it never seemed real likely to us that Page was involved in a plot. That said, the report by Inspector General Michael Horowitz outlined the grotesque misbehavior in which some FBI employees engaged as they pursued surveillance on Page.

We humans! As everyone has always known, we need to learn to avoid jumping to tribally pleasing conclusions. Because our favorite TV stars kept assuring us that Page was a spy, it might be worth examining some of what we were told about Page along the way.

Let's start with this colloquy at Slate about the inspector general's report. In this exchange, Emily Bazelon and David Plotz describe what the FBI did:
BAZELON (12/13/19): The particular fact about the Carter Page FISA application that just floored me was that he had been giving information to the CIA for years, and they just left that out. This is the part that a government lawyer actually falsified in an email and could be criminally charged for. But just think about that. This guy who our government is surveilling without his knowledge, or really hardly any check on that power, it turns out was an intelligence asset for another agency, and the FBI just hid that information from the FISA court. That’s really bad. We should care about fixing those problems, and we should do something about the level of secrecy in these FISA proceedings.

PLOTZ: The fact that he was doing the CIA’s work was what allowed the FBI to gin up suspicion about him that justified the warrant. So it wasn’t just that they ignored it, it was that the actual work was the predicate for the warrant itself, which is outrageous. I’ve always assumed that the FBI has been playing fast and loose with FISA stuff, because even in legal proceedings where there two sides, the prosecutors are constantly engaged in chicanery. So when there’s only one side, and it’s secret and there’s no opponent? You knew that they were doing stuff that was shady.
Oof! Page had been a CIA informant for years (starting in 2008). According to the inspector general's report, the FBI was already aware of this fact at the time of their first application to the FISA court in October 2016 (see quote below).

The FBI already knew this, but they didn't include this information in their requests for surveillance of Page. Along the way, one Justice Department lawyer actually doctored a document in such a way that the FISA court was falsely told that Page wasn't a CIA source!

In the passage we've posted, Plotz says he isn't surprised by this conduct. He says that (some or many) prosecutors behave this way all the time.

This makes us think of the million times we saw former prosecutors tell us, on our favorite channels, that the FBI is just amazingly meticulous about the way they assemble their applications for a FISA warrant.

These former prosecutors have become TV stars in the years of The Chase. As time went along, we became increasingly unimpressed with their lock-them-up approach, in which they sift through our twenty million federal, state and local laws, looking for gimmicky ways to charge targeted persons with crimes.

In his report, Horowitz seems to say that FBI personnel did engage in deeply inappropriate conduct in their pursuit of Page. The last time we saw someone saying that, it was Devin Nunes!

How badly might the feds have behaved? At this point, we can't tell you that. For now, let's skip ahead to a front-page news report in the Washington Post.

The report appeared in April 2017. Starting with its opening paragraphs, here's part of what it said:
NAKASHIMA, BARRETT AND ENTOUS (4/11/17): The FBI obtained a secret court order in October 2016 to monitor the communications of a former adviser to presidential candidate Donald Trump, part of an investigation into possible links between Russia and the campaign, law enforcement and other U.S. officials said.

The FBI and the Justice Department obtained the warrant targeting Carter Page’s communications after convincing a Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court judge that there was probable cause to believe Page was acting as an agent of a foreign power, in this case Russia, according to the officials.


The judges who rule on Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) requests oversee the nation’s most sensitive national security cases, and their warrants are some of the most closely guarded secrets in the world of U.S. law enforcement and intelligence gathering. Any FISA application has to be approved at the highest levels of the Justice Department and the FBI.

Applications for FISA warrants, [James] Comey said, are often thicker than his wrists, and that thickness represents all the work Justice Department attorneys and FBI agents have to do
to convince a judge that such surveillance is appropriate in an investigation.

The government’s application for the surveillance order targeting Page included a lengthy declaration that laid out investigators’ basis for believing that Page was an agent of the Russian government and knowingly engaged in clandestine intelligence activities on behalf of Moscow, officials said.
Inevitably, there was Comey—"Comey the God"—delivering a homespun version of the company line about how meticulous the gumshoes are in compiling their FISA applications.

The applications are "often thicker than his wrists," the establishment god was reported to have said. This same company line rang out from MSNBC on a regular basis.

Even back in the fall of 2016, the FBI had known about Page's background with the CIA. Despite this fact, the Post was now reporting exciting facts:

Back in October 2016, there had been "probable cause to believe Page was acting as an agent of Russia," unnamed officials had now said. Also, the FBI had believed at that time "that Page knowingly engaged in clandestine intelligence activities on behalf of Moscow," according to these unnamed officials.

Who knows? The FBI may even have believed such things back in 2016. After all, a person can be a CIA source and a Russkie spy at the same time.

That said, the FBI was aware of the fuller story involving Page and the CIA. But these exciting statements now appeared in the Post without any mention of same.

That night, on The One True Liberal Channel, it was "former Rhodes scholar gone wild." An unnamed cable news TV star went on and on, then on and on, about these new revelations.

On April 3, this unnamed star had already declared that Page had been "successfully recruited" by Russkie spies back in 2013. On this new occasion, she continued to mix her slippery "successfully recruited" formulation with fleeting references to the established fact that Page had been declared an "unwitting" target of those Russkies spies at that time.

Our favorite star seemed to be trying to keep her blend of insinuations and fact within the realm of what can be defended as "technical accuracy." Eventually though, interviewing one of the Post reporters, our favorite star told us this:
MADDOW (4/11/17): In that [2013] case, [Page] was described as essentially an unwitting target of those Russian spies. But what you guys are reporting tonight, I'll just quote here: “The government's application for the surveillance order targeting Page included a lengthy declaration that laid out the basis for believing he was an agent of the Russian government and that he knowingly engaged in clandestine intelligence activities on behalf of Moscow.”

So that would say he was not someone being used unwittingly but, rather, he knew what he was doing and that he was deliberately acting as a Russian agent.

ENTOUS: Yes. So, as you know, I mean, the bar is relatively high for trying to get one of these FISA warrants. And it requires the investigators to–and the prosecutors to make a case of probable cause. And so, the officials we spoke to described some of the aspects of that case.
The unnamed star accurately quoted the Post's front-page report. The Post reporter then went into the song and dance about how meticulous those FISA applications are.

Viewers of this cable news TV show were frequently propagandized about Page's status as a fairly obvious Russkie spy. The major star to whom we've referred displayed a familiar human skill in the course of advancing these representations:

She was skilled at taking everything which made us doubt this conclusion and turning it into evidence that Page really was a Russkie spy! True believers have displayed this particular human skill down through the annals of time.

It never seemed very likely to us that Page was a Russkie spy. On cable, we liberals tended to get the more pleasing story.

Whatever the full story might turn out to be, Horowitz was a bit of a killjoy this week. On the brighter side, we won't likely be told about that on our favorite TV programs.

"Trust but verify," Reagan once said. We strongly agree with that famous old bromide, except for the part about "trust."

Killjoy speaks: From the inspector general's report (page viii):
INSPECTOR GENERAL'S REPORT: Based upon the information known to the FBI in October 2016, the first [FISA] application contained the following seven significant inaccuracies and omissions:

1. Omitted information the FBI had obtained from another U.S. government agency detailing its prior relationship with Page, including that Page had been approved as an "operational contact" for the other agency from 2008 to 2013, and that Page had provided information to the other agency concerning his prior cont acts with certain Russian intelligence officers, one of which overlapped with facts asserted in the FISA application...
Along the way, we liberals were told a more pleasing story—on cable news, then in the Post.

We were offered the fruits of true belief. This made our nightly cable viewing simpler and much more fun.


  1. "for example, by playing brain-dead semantic games"

    Not playing games, dear Bob, just repeating zombie talking points. Developed by your zombie lawyers. Your brain-dead dembot stars aren't capable of playing games.

    "For various fairly obvious reasons, it never seemed real likely to us that Page was involved in a plot."

    Meh. Dear Bob, for obvious reasons Page was involved in the plot, heavily involved. Your liberal-zombie spooks needed him to initiate the which-hunt, to start the coup. And that makes Page one of the central figures in the plot, dear Bob.


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  2. “After all, a person can be a CIA source and a Russkie spy at the same time.”

    Three things to note here:
    First: This statement is true. It is certainly possible that Page was (or had been doing) both. But this doesn’t seem like an adequate rebuttal:

    “it never seemed especially likely to us that he was part of some major intrigue.”

    Well, if it seemed to “them” (ie Somerby), then that is certainly adequate proof...for Somerby, at any rate. The Mueller report found Page’s conduct to be unexplained. And the errors in the FISA process don’t necessarily mean he was innocent.

    Next, while excoriating Maddow for her coverage of Page, Somerby quotes extensively from a discussion in Slate, pointing out the failings of the FBI. Slate is a liberal/mainstream outlet. This shows there is a robust discussion of these failures within the liberal/mainstream press, Maddow’s coverage notwithstanding. One imagines the lack of such a robust discussion in the right-wing press: witness the way they have dealt with the impeachment.

    Finally, describing Horowitz as a “killjoy” is silly. He testified that, even with the errors, he couldn’t say that the FISA warrant wasn’t justified. He also clearly stated that he found no anti-Trump bias in the handling of the “Crossfire Hurricane” investigation, and furthermore that the investigation was warranted. And the Page warrant was a minor, tangential part of it. That could be called a major killjoy for Republicans, although I wouldn’t use such a snarky, trivializing term to describe it.

    1. How is Slate covering this, examining NOW whether corners were cut (to say the least), a defense of Maddow and MSNBC? Isn't this what MSNBC and Maddow et al. should have been doing? Questioning whether the investigation was done properly?
      There was little to no skepticism by the liberal press (I am generalizing) as to whether there were abuses. They wanted a morality tale. And their hatred of Trump prevented them from even considering that this was more than bad Trump vs. good civil servants. "Men are not angels." Even men (and women) opposed to Trump.
      Look, Trump is an embarrassment, a bully, a conman. But that's irrelevant (or should be) to the discussion as to whether people in government misused their powers.

    2. No one is defending Maddow, least of all me. Where did you see that in my comment? (Hint: it wasn’t there). And then, you say you are generalizing, then you go ahead and make the very broad claim that the liberal press offered no skepticism. My point was that Somerby is the one generalizing from Maddow’s coverage.


    3. “‘After all, a person can be a CIA source and a Russkie spy at the same time.”

      Three things to note here:
      First: This statement is true. It is certainly possible that Page was (or had been doing) both.“

      Mifsud sure comes to mind.

    4. Yeah, Cec, Sammy "the bull" Gravano was an FBI source.

      Most likely Carter was forced into his relationship with the CIA after having been busted getting a little to chummy with Russian goons. That's usually how it works. Read some La Carre.

    5. Timothy Leary and Al Sharpton worked for the feds.

      Upper-crust British and American schools were their recruiting ground.

      Who needs spy novels.

    6. Somerby just can not admit he was wrong about Page.

      Sorry but as far as what is known, Page provided the CIA one time with some information, after the CIA caught him interacting improperly with Russians. Page never worked for the CIA, and continually met with Russians to discuss information regarding US sanctions against Russia, and to discuss getting financial benefits from his connections to various Russian companies.

      The supposed wrongdoing on the FBI in connection to obtaining the FISA warrant on Page is trivial, and of no real consequence to virtually anyone. Indeed, the concern in the IG report is not over violating rights but per the IG report to "make sure that the left hand knows what the right hand is doing". This was the issue that came up in the 9/11 attacks. In fact, one of the people who dropped the ball in the CIA over the 9/11 attacks was Republican operative Joseph Black, who wound up serving on the board of Burisma!!! The Republicans really are just total scumbags.

      The FBI has committed real abuse in the past, typically in pursuit of racist and anti-progressive policies.

      Somerby and the Republicans are wrong on this fake outcry over the Page issue. Page did give Russians info on sanctions, was involved in the sale of Rosneft, and the sanctions the congress passed on Russians are still not being enforced by Trump.

      Honestly, Somerby and the Republicans are dishonest crooks.

    7. Yes, Cec, agreed. The KGB did some of their best recruiting in upper crust British and American schools.

  3. If the revelations of FBI abuses lead to a re-evaluation of the FISA process and the whole national security apparatus, that might be a good thing.

    What are the chances the GOP are actually eager to have this discussion, outside their narrow objections in this one instance?

    Answer: zero.

    1. People have been talking about this stuff for years now, depending upon whose ox was being gored, of course.

      It’s complex. How popular do you want Snowden and Assange to be?

      Here’s rundown from 2018. (There’s stuff out there too from the days that congress and the senate was worried that the feds were listening in on them)

      2018- “ Think that over for a moment, and you can see why the Carter Page warrant is important. The possible abuse of that warrant for partisan political purposes would likely be a violation not just of Page’s rights, but of the rights of thousands of other Americans—and by extension, of the right of all Americans to be free from warrantless surveillance.”

    2. There was a time when Right-wingers would have no problem with the authorities rail-roading people of color. That time is today, yesterday, and every day.

  4. Years ago, liberals were big supporters of civil liberties. Old-fashioned liberals would have been screaming from the rooftops at the FBI's scummy behavior. The saddest example IMHO is the American Civil Liberties Union. They should be screaming the loudest, but they have become just another Democratic support group. They get more donations that way.

    The ACLU does have a mealy mouthed comment on their web site, but they have not made a fuss about this.

    P.S. my wife and I were members of the ACLU for around 50 years. We recently gave up our membership because of the change in the organization.

    1. You've been claiming you "recently" gave up your ACLU membership for at least the past 10 years, David, you treasonous bastard.

      The ACLU and other civil liberty organizations have been fighting the FISA law in courts while you've been blowing Vladimir Putin, world renowned civil libertarian.

      2013: This week, in a 5-4 decision in Clapper et al. v. Amnesty International USA et al., the United States Supreme Court rejected two theories of Article III standing presented by a group of attorneys, human rights, labor, legal, and media organizations who sought a declaration that surveillance under section 1881a of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (“FISA”) is unconstitutional as well as an injunction against section 1881a-authorized surveillance.

      Take a guess who dissented.

      Take a guess who wrote the majority opinion.

      You fucking phony lying sack of shit treasonous bastard. Your sudden concern for FISA is so heartwarming.

    2. You just light up a room, mm. You’re like a Disney princess. Just magic...

    3. David you fundamentally misunderstand the IG's issue with the Carter Page FISA warrant. The issue is over different agencies sharing information, nowhere does the IG report claim Carter Page's civil rights were violated.

      OTOH, Trump and his administration has been violating the laws, using political bias as a function:

      State Dept. Violated Civil Service Laws in Transferring Employee, IG Finds

    4. "You’re like a Disney princess."

      She's either a Disney princess or a Hillaryland bot.

    5. 188 Democrats including lying scumbag Schiff voted to increase military spending this week and give Trump billions for his ridiculous "space force". Did Maddow talk about that? Did anyone on MSDNC hold his feet to the fire about that? mm talk to us about how great the Democrats are after they just authorized further US war and slaughter in Yemen and all over the world in our names.

      Democrats love endless wars and unlimited spying on US citizens. What a great bunch of leaders.

    6. Join the Resistance! Resist Trump - but billions of dollars a day going to endless wars and the military industrial complex - that's irresistible! Join the Resistance and you too can support death and famine at the hands of the US all over the world while we argue about FISA and impeachment!

    7. @December 14, 2019 at 8:52 PM - One reason for the extreme partisanship is that different news sources report different factual news. I recommend you watch Lindsay Graham's opening statement when Horowitz testified at the Senate. You will note that Horowitz agreed with what Graham said.

    8. Lindsay Graham's words aren't worth the toilet paper they are written on, David, you treasonous bastard.

    9. "House Democrats Gave Trump 'Everything He Wanted' on a $738 Billion Defense Bill While on the Brink of Impeaching Him"

      mm - are you proud of your Democratic leaders who fight so hard for the resistance?

    10. "Lying by Bush and Obama over Afghanistan is this era’s Pentagon Papers"

      mm - are you so happy that Obama lied about the war in Afghanistan? All those dead American boys and girls - and all those now who are maimed, live ruined? How about that resistance!!?

      Isn't great Trump is impeached and the rule of law is upheld!!!???!!

      Well, some of the rules.

      Lying about billion dollar wars that kill thousands of Americans isn't as important. Right mm?

    11. mm - Graham summarized Horowitz's report. Horowitz was right there agreeing that Graham's summary accurately represented his report. No matter what you think of Graham, Horowitz is the expert on what is in his own report.

    12. Hillary Clinton donors charged in massive campaign-finance scheme

      I'm so proud to be a Democrat! We impeached Trump and upheld the constitution! We are so, so noble! Right mm?

      We are so less corrupt than Republicans though right?

    13. The article says this:
      “it is clear that the contributions went to groups allied with Clinton’s presidential campaign.”

      “Allied with?” That’s leading language.

      Then later bothers to tell us:
      “Khawaja owns an online-payments company used by, among others, debt collectors, offshore gamblers, and pornographers. The company has made numerous campaign donations to *both Democrats and Republicans.*

      (Emphasis *both Democrats and Republicans*)

      Also, of one of those charged (George Nader):
      “Nader also gained access to the Trump administration, meeting with the president on several occasions. “

      You should never take media stories at face value, especially from outlets that have a known bias, like National Review. If Somerby taught us anything, it is to be skeptical. And that goes double for any story involving Hillary Clinton.

    14. 12:46 and 12:51
      If the Democratic Party would stop shunning white grievance and victimization, they'd be the Republican Party.

    15. "National Review: America's most respected journal of white supremacy."

      Charles P. Pierce

    16. 1:20

      I'm sorry, skeptical of what? Of what am I to be skeptical with regards to that story?

    17. 1:20

      So your response is, yes, Democrats gave Trump everything he wanted to secure the world's largest military budget without putting up any kind of fight and with no advocacy for doing anything different from major liberal news sources.

      And yes, Obama and other Democrats lied for years about the Afghanistan war, a disaster from the beginning. Obama has the blood of thousands of American young men and women on his hands.

      And yes, democratic donors illegally funded money into Hillary Clinton's campaign but, read skeptically, they also contributed to Republicans!

      That's a weak defense of the Democratic party 1:20!

      That's my point. Yes, they are better than Republicans but they are still horrible. Just horrible.

    18. Would you like the Hillary Clinton donors story from a different source than a National Review?

    19. You weak fucks don't have an answer do you? Your glorious Democratic leaders are you all in for endless death and war at the hands of the US military machine, they are liars, lying about Afghanistan for years, they do nothing to prevent, and actually support and vote for, endless spying on citizens, they do nothing about health care prices, predatory lending and the list goes on and on.

      And what is your answer? Ad homimum fiddle faddle.

    20. Sure, David, you treasonous bastard, that's exactly what happened - just as you described it. As a matter of fact, Democratic Senators on the committee didn't even have to ask any questions after drama queen Lindsay summarized the report so meticulously comprehensive.

      It truly fascinates me how you and the rest of the trumpbots are so confident in your delusional fantasy that the entire intelligence establishment conspired to sabotage the Trump campaign, when as a matter of historical fact, the only candidate who was undermined repeatedly during the campaign by the FBI/DOJ was his opponent, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.

      Let me ask you something David, you treasonous bastard. What did Horowitz have to report on his investigation into the FBI field agents and their collusion with Giuliani and DeGenova? You remember that IG investigation, don't you? The one that started more than a year before the FISA review investigation? How's that one coming along, David, you treasonous bastard?

    21. Anon 4:21, or should I call you Boris. Go fuck yourself. Are you campaigning for Jill Stein this year or is it Tulsi Gabbard this time?

    22. mm - Ad homimum, neo-McCarthite fiddle faddle. Just as predicted. You have no answer, thus you give none.

      Democrats gave Trump everything he wanted in the largest military budget of all time and no one said anything about it. They just talked about impeachment. Why? To fool people. People just like you.

    23. What is bad about Tulsi Gabbard mm?

    24. anon 6:16: I believe today she went on one of the sunday shows to fellate former Governor Huckabee, proud father of Sarah the Liar Huckabee Sanders. To each his own.

    25. 6:08: When did the Senate pass this Defense appropriations bill? Has Donald J Chickenshit, Acting President, signed it? Do you have a link?

    26. 4:21,
      First we need to convince the entire Right-wing that Democrats don't hate the military, and that we aren't Marxist/ Socialists, who hate capitalism, despise corporations, and want to give the people everything for free.
      Is that something you can help with, or have you stopped trying to convince the racist, clueless, mouth-breathing,dead-enders on the Right that they are wallowing in their own stupidity?

  5. 'we liberals were told a more pleasing story'

    I don't know what story liberals were told, but clearly Somerby and other Trumptards were told a different story.

  6. Here, dear Bob, for your reading pleasure, some new (if utterly unsurprising) revelations by one Tareq Haddad, ex-Newsweek journo:

    "The US government, in an ugly alliance with those [that] profit the most from war, has its tentacles in every part of the media—imposters, with ties to the US State Department, sit in newsrooms all over the world… Inconvenient stories are completely blocked. As a result, journalism is quickly dying. America is regressing because it lacks the truth."

    I hope it helps your little (and often misguided) crusade...

    1. And Trump has just requested the largest military budget in the history of an nation ever.
      That helps me realize Mao is a troll, who will write anything to protect his good buddies in the Establishment.

    2. I wouldn't ever call Mao a traitor since he works exclusively for Moscow Center.

      It is beyond laughable that RT (Russian Government run Pravda) is concerned about the number of retired military and intelligence persons who comment on our news networks.

    3. Dear Hillary, you appear uncharacteristically active today.

      Does it mean you're running after all? Are you? You are, aren't you?

      Thank you so much, my dear. This is going to be so much fun.

    4. Run for President, and give-up the rent-free space in your head that she lives in. Pshaw.

  7. ""Trust but verify," Reagan once said. We strongly agree with that famous old bromide, except for the part about "trust.""

    Except Somerby also says it never seemed very likely to him that Carter Page could be a "Russkie" spy. What is that, if not trust?

  8. "1. Omitted information the FBI had obtained from another U.S. government agency detailing its prior relationship with Page, including that Page had been approved as an "operational contact" for the other agency from 2008 to 2013, and that Page had provided information to the other agency concerning his prior cont acts with certain Russian intelligence officers, one of which overlapped with facts asserted in the FISA application..."

    Somerby thinks that having a "prior relationship" with another agency (presumably the CIA) exonerates Page from any suspicion as a Russian spy. However, this paragraph only says that he provided information to that other agency, not that he was a CIA agent or had any kind of official status with it. Nor does it preclude Page from being an agent of Russia.

    But Somerby considers this an exoneration. In this way, Somerby is much like conservatives. They too consider lengthy catalogs of wrongdoing to be an exoneration of Trump.

    And somehow Somerby thinks that Rachel Maddow should have known the Carter Page was OK, even though this new info about his disclosures to the CIA has only come out in the Horowitz report and was not known at the time Maddow was saying the things Somerby complains about. Maddow is supposed to be omniscient, but she didn't know about the CIA contacts so she is scum.

    Somerby is almost ecstatic and rushes to the conclusion that Page must have been innocent in his contacts with the Russians because he was willing to tell the CIA what occurred during 2008-2013. How will Somerby explain away all of the other contacts between Russia and various members of Trump's campaign and his administration?

    1. @9:51, the point is, there is no reason at all to believe Page is guilty. The alleged reason to suspect him was his meetings with Russians. However, as a CIA person, meeting with Russians was his job. There was nothing suspicious about it. Also, Horowitz pointed out, these meetings were not secret. On the contrary, Page reported back to the CIA what he had learned in these meetings.

    2. The IG report describes Page as an “operational contact” for the CIA (technically “another agency”), whatever that means. It also says that this relationship lasted from 2008 to 2013, so it ended well before the 2016 campaign. Not sure which meetings you think he reported to the CIA.

      The FBI felt a sense of urgency in that they saw foreign influence working to undermine our election, so perhaps they were less careful than they should have been with the Page warrant.

      Also, the IG report doesn’t say he worked with the CIA; it just says “other agency.” It was the liberal/commie/mainstream New York Times that uncovered this fact.

    3. as a CIA person, meeting with Russians was his job.


      This representation, however, was contrary to information that the other agency had provided to the FBI in August 2016, which stated that Page was approved as an "operational contact" of the other agency from 2008 to 2013 (after Page had left Moscow).

      His JOB???? Just stop, David, you treasonous bastard. You think the FBI are "scum", David, you treasonous bastard?

    4. 'How will Somerby explain away all of the other contacts between Russia and various members of Trump's campaign and his administration?'

      He wouldn't bother. Somerby is a clueless, lying, Trumptard.

    5. David no one is claiming Page worked for the CIA, that is laughable. As far as we know, Page met once with the CIA after he was found trying to make deals with Russian agents.

  9. Show me a Right-winger who claims to be concerned about civil liberties, fairness of justice, and deficit spending, and I'll show you a Right-winger who doesn't care one little whit about civil liberties, fairness of justice, and deficit-spending.

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