SATURDAY, JULY 1, 2023
Ethnicity (not quite) all around: In total fairness, we'd have to say this:
If Harvard's self-reporting can be trusted, the famous school doesn't seem to admit a lot of lunkheads due to their "legacy" status.
Back in 2018, the school released the average SAT scores of the major demographic groups admitted over a stretch of eighteen years. According to the Harvard Crimson, the scores broke down like this:
Average SAT scores, students admitted to Harvard, 2000 - 2017
Asian-American students: 766.6
White students: 744.7
Hispanic students: 717.6
Black students: 703.7
All four groups had high average scores. To appearances, there couldn't have been a whole lot of lunkheads among those legacy admits.
To Harvard's credit, the school was still willing to admit, or perhaps to acknowledge the fact, that some of its students are (categorized as) "white."
Two days ago, the famous school released its annual profile of students admitted for the upcoming year. Below, you see the school's official "ethnicity" breakdown.
For the record, Harvard does this every year:
Students admitted to Harvard, Class of 2026
African American: 15.2%
Asian American: 27.9%
Hispanic or Latino: 12.6%
Native American: 2.9%
Native Hawaiian: 0.8%
According to Harvard's official posting, Harvard admitted kids of various ethnicities for the class of '26. But as it turns out, none of its admits for next year are white!
Harvard does this every year. Even at the highest levels, the world can be quite strange.
Class of 26 would have started in 2022 not “the coming year” as Somerby claims. The don’t consider white students diverse or an ethnicitybecause no one does. They are about 60%.
ReplyDeleteIf they did not make room for legacies, the white mean would be as high as the Asian group (which is not dragged down by people considered for other reasons besides academic ability) or perhaps higher.
Why should anyone be considered as a legacy or because parents made a large donation or are famous or powerful? That is corruption.
Hillary Clinton was a political legacy just like George W. Bush. Zero chance in hell she ever runs for president if her husband wasn't a famous and powerful politician.
DeleteFinancial aid shows a footnote for lower expenses in 2020-2021 due to covid, so this is more likely based on 2022 not 2023 as Somerby claims.
DeleteHillary was a National Merit finalist. She scored at or above the 99.5 percentile on ths PSAT (junior year) and most likely was at 750+ on the SAT which would have qualified her on her merits.
DeleteThis is a problem minorities share. If you are qualified based on the numbers and your own accomplishments, some people will assume you got help from your minority status, or family name or hubby. People like David in Cal and Somerby (re Ketanji Brown Jackson) will assume you are not qualified.
"Hillary Clinton was a political legacy just like George W. Bush."
DeleteI'll bet Hillary never got a C in her life.
Wikipedia says this about Bush:
"Bush scored a 1206 out of 1600 on the SAT; 566 on the verbal section, and 640 on the math section.[6] Bush cheered for both Philips Academy's and Yale's football teams, as it was quite common for cheerleaders to be male in Bush's time.[7][8] At Yale, he joined Delta Kappa Epsilon, of which he was from October 1965 until graduation, and the Skull and Bones secret society; Bush's father George H. W. Bush (1948) and grandfather Prescott S. Bush (1917) were also members of Skull and Bones. Bush was also in the Yale First XV rugby union team in 1968.[9] He was a C student, scoring 77% (with no As and one D, in astronomy) with a grade point average of 2.35 out of a possible 4.00. Bush joked that he was known more for his social life than for his grades." His application to the University of Texas Law School was rejected.
The Washington Post says this about Hillary Clinton:
"When Hillary came home with lots of A's from Eugene Field Elementary School -- as she would later from Emerson Junior High and Maine East High School, and then Maine South High School when it was built -- the big joke in the family was that she'd show Hugh Rodham her report card and every time he would grunt: "You must go to a pretty easy school."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/1993/01/11/the-education-of-hillary-clinton/371300bc-40ef-408b-8f52-b9d7d55adc97/
Being a National Merit Finalist is a big deal. Hillary was one and George Bush was not. It determines eligibility for a variety of scholarships. High schools are measured by how many of them they produce. Colleges woo merit finalists.
@4:17 people are individuals. Many years ago, we had a black summer employee from Yale. He was unimpressive. OTOH my black cousin Lizzie, who went to Yale, was totally brilliant.
DeleteSince she was your cousin, it seems likely you knew her better than the other guy. I suspect you underestimated him. Shy people in an unfamiliar setting may not make a strong impression.
DeleteHillary is very smart. She would have been very successful at almost everything she did - but receiving a presidential nomination is most certainly not one of them. That, she marrried into.
DeleteQuite obviously.
And yet she won all those primaries and the popular vote.
DeleteIn fact David is not related to the Lizzie he claims to be.
DeleteDavid is a deeply strange individual.
My daughter has brown skin because she is Hispanic. She went to an upper middle class high school. Her friends would ask her "What are you?" and she would say "Mexican-American." They would say "Oh, no, that can't be true." and she would say "Why not?" "Because our gardeners are Mexican American," they would say. The next question is "Do you speak Spanish?"
DeleteThis is what it is like for middle class kids who are black or brown, who are brought up in upper middle class homes, attending "elite" schools. Others see their complexion and they try to connect them to the stereotypes that go with being black or brown.
Exactly, you are speaking about liberal institutions and liberal reactions to these groups. This is the exact ignorance that you are showing and that is described here.
DeleteThere is no more excuse for grouping people as liberal than there is for grouping them any other way.
DeleteSomerby sounds vaguely aggrieved that white people are not considered in the ethnic breakdown. By making a fuss over this, he also implies that after adding up the ethnicities listed there are not enough white students admitted. Is that true?
ReplyDeleteIf you add up Somerby's list of numbers, you get 59.4% which leaves 60.6% white students. When you look at the census population estimates for 2022, the % of white people, not including biracial and Hispanics, is 58.9. That makes the % of white students admitted for the last class at Harvard closely similar, in fact slightly higher, compared to the % of white people in the US population.
This makes it difficult for Somerby to claim that white students are being slighted by the process. This claim of white discrimination only applies to a comparison with the bad old days when minorities (and women) were ignored and mostly white students were accepted. Harvard does not give the actual % of women and men, but it says they are "nearly equal".
Now that affirmative action has been disallowed by the Supreme Court, Harvard may be required to select people based on scores and grades alone. This will privilege Asian students but also women. I would expect the % of white students to decrease, the balance between male and female students to shift toward women, and the numbers of white, black and Hispanic students to decrease. But that's what the right wing wants. Perhaps they intend to find some way to eliminate the non-white males later. Or maybe they think this decision will make it impossible for anyone to bring a race- or gender-based suit again. So if Harvard just stops admitting women and Asians, they can claim their admissions are no longer race-based, so the plaintiffs can have no case. If they leave in the legacy admissions policy, they can claim the white male students are all legacies, as they will be more likely to be.
If court does not require institutions to be fair, they will revert to the past's unfairness. And that will be fine with white guys like Somerby, because they benefitted from it.
100.0% - 59.4% is 40.6%m not 60.6%. So, Harvard's % of white acceptees is less than the national average of 48.9%. That's not a problem for me, but let's get the arithmetic right.
DeleteWhat is a problem for me is assuming that those ethnic categories are the most important characteristics by which to classify people. What about Jews, Muslims, and Mormons? How about male vs female? Urban vs rural? Conservative vs liberal? Cultural oriented vs. STEM?
I HATE the ethnic categories. They imply that various ethnicities are inherently different. This is the opposite of the melting pot concept that liberals espoused in when I was young. It's reminiscent of the old South Africa, with 3 official classifications: White, Native and Coloured.
Furthermore, schools make it worse by intentionally separating ethicites. Many schools have a Black Student Union. Black dormitories are common. Separate graduations by ethnicity are showing up. IMO this all promotes racial division and racial animosity. It's a terrible trend IMO.
You are right, thanks for correcting my mistake.
DeleteThose categories are the largest ones, not the most important. Lots of Mormons at BYU, for whom they are the most important. Not many at Pepperdine, a religious school. Why not?
DeleteThe ethnic graduations are in addition to, not separate. They are celebrations, not official graduations. You might try thinking of these as cultural differences.
People have different families and no one objects. Families have their own traditions and customs that others may find odd but not threatening. Families hold graduation parties of their own after the official ceremony. No one considers that apartheid. If you are on a campus where you are a small %, might you not feel less homesick among other students with the same customs as your family back home? Might it be a relief not to have to explain yourself, to feel understood, to be able to relax? That’s what black dorms are about.
You are always in the majorityso you don’t have the constant discomfort of dealing with other people’s curiosity, their misunderstandings, their expectations. Being always careful, trying to fit in, not say the wrong thing and offend those who are different. Not getting the jokes of others. It can be exhausting. Black student centers are a place to relax before going back to being alone again.
Denying other people a chance to feel at home, when you take that feeling for granted as your norm, is part of racism.
Black people as a race can't understand jokes from people of other races?
DeleteThat is more stupid than racist and it is racist af.
The reason why right wingers claim to hate racial categories is because they are the ones creating those categories via racism in order to maintain power dynamics that keep Whites in superior positions by every metric that matters.
DeleteThere is a key difference in races: Whites are oppressors of people of color; non White races are oppressed.
Race is a function of racism.
If you don’t like racial categories, stop the oppression of them.
You see black people as incapable, full of misunderstandings and "different".
DeleteSo crazy.
@12:05 I see David and you trolls as full of misunderstandings, mostly deliberate.
DeleteYes, you do. That makes perfect sense.
Delete@8:44 You have bought into the idea that ethnicity is the most important characteristic. You assume that I always fit in because I'm white. But, there are innumerable other reasons I might not fit in.
ReplyDeleteI am a conservative in a family and community of liberals. I am a different religion than the majority. And, the possible reasons for not fitting in don't end there. People might be rude or ugly or obnoxious or stupid or uneducated or overeducated. Someone might not share the interests of the group s/he's with. People might be older or younger than their group.
BTW, it's far from true that all blacks share a common culture. My black cousins David and Lizzie attended Princeton and Yale. They were raised in a two-parent upper middle class home. Their two parents had two Ph.D.'s and an M.D. between them. Were David and Lizzie the same as a poor inner city black child? Of course not.
Affirmative action is judging blacks as individuals first?
DeleteNot clear where Bobbie gets his SAT table from but it is surely only documenting math or verbal scores. It is not a stretch to assume that 60-80% of legacy admissions are white. They may not drag down the admitting white SAT scores (but probably do), which are most well correlated with socioeconomic status. At Yale or Harvard that legacy group is roughly 30% of the freshman class. If 40% of the entering class is white at Harvard and 20-26% (.6-.8 X .33) are white legacy, then the percent of non legacy white freshman entering is 14-20% of the class. That group can argue they are selected against. The much aggrieved Chinese contingency likes to claim that they are more deserving admission because of grades and standardized test scoring that reflect a harder work ethic than their white counterparts. What are the grades and SAT scores for the non legacy white incomings? That would be the comparison, if all that mattered were GPA and SAT scores, but that is hardly the case. 3 kids in my high school class got into Ivy league schools on the basis of their lacrosse skills. None Chinese. To claim that you are under represented based upon academic credentials alone is to view the admission process from a heavily biased perspective. Harvard turns away many more straight A ,1560+ SAT students than they admit, in all likelihood. If your credentials include sought after extracurriculars, that matters, says Harvard. They have more of a legacy problem than a racial bias problem in all likelihood but of course the right wing commenters find little to talk about at that end of the spectrum, preferring to punch down on minorities. Meanwhile, Clarence Thomas opened his mouth for a change to opine that affirmative action had its place when it was benefiting his sorry ass, but no longer, of course.
ReplyDeleteAll these racists need to stop denying that black people can't understand jokes.
DeleteDo you understand black people's jokes? Bet you don't.
DeleteYou've gone completely insane. Maybe you've just never been around black people.
Delete"black people's jokes",
DeleteGood to see you're not stereotyping and treating blacks as individuals first.
You don't understand that your accusations are confessions. You are racist. You see black people stereotypically. All as one block that can't act or think for themselves without your help. As one big block that are "different".
DeleteI'm not saying it's malicious on your part, just ignorant.
Can you tell us about all the time she's been around black people in the last month and all the jokes they told that you could not understand?
DeleteThe right wing likes to argue that the way to combat racism is to be race blind. Somerby has said this himself. The equivalent argument would be to say that the way to combat sexism is to treat men and women as if they were identical. It doesn't work that way.
DeleteThe goal of trolls here is not to eliminate racism by having every person be treated as an individual. It is to argue against measures intended to combat racism, such as treating other people's differences as valuable and worthy of respect. So that when black students want to live together in a dorm, it isn't seen as something threatening to other students, especially white students.
Somerby and right wingers don't like identity or identity politics, or cultural respect for identities no matter how they are defined. For them, treating someone like an individuals means treated everyone alike, but people are not all alike.
So, this trolls insistence that there cannot be difference is a cue that they are arguing against respect for diversity and trying to eliminate considerations that have tried to reverse damage done to minorities in our long history of racial oppression.
David, for example, wants to argue that the idea of race shouldn't exist and that "categories" should not exist, because they do not want to face the legacy of wrongs done in the name of such categories (i.e., slave vs free). There can be no segregated majority minority schools, for example, if there are no such thing as minorities.
This is trollish sophistry and it bears no relation to the realities of human interaction on the ground. Affirmative action is meant to counteract discrimination. Discrimination still exists and it happens even to black teens raised in upper middle class homes with lots of money, because other people still see such kids as black. I didn't invent discrimination because I acknowledge its existence.
Trolls think it is funny to turn liberal arguments against liberals. It wastes everyone's time.
Okay to reinforce your argument can you tell us about the last three times you were around black people and did not understand their jokes?
DeleteI'm assuming when you are around black people, you do not understand their jokes. Right?
DeleteI'm just curious because I'm around black people all day everyday and don't have a problem understanding their jokes, and vice versa. But since you cannot understand their jokes, please tell us the jokes.
DeleteYou have to be precise about your accusations for them to hold weight.
DeleteIt's like the anecdote that Robin D'Angelo used to start off her latest book was supposed to show how liberals are insensitive to black people but what the anecdote showed is that she is an ignorant hick lacking basic social skills.
DeleteIf you join a subculture, you will eventually learn to understand their cultural references, including jokes. That is true whether it is black people or Hassidic Jews or Italian immigrants. If you are claiming to understand all jokes everywhere because you are a humanist, you are lying.
DeleteI really do think there's a whole set of white liberals that are never around black people and have never been around black people. It's really the only thing that explains their ignorance. That they all tell the same jokes and think the same way, that they all can't understand and are different. It's just complete ignorance. It must come from not being around black people. And really only knowing them as a concept. That was the ignorance that D'Angelo displayed in her pathetic antidote.
DeleteBut go ahead and tell us about the last couple of times you were around black people and the jokes they told that you did not understand.
Delete"their cultural references" Titanic ignorance and racism!
DeleteCalling all the black people in America a subculture is about as racist and stereotyping as it gets.
DeleteUsing the term shows your ignorance about the subject. And that is nothing to be ashamed of. It's just because you're never around black people and look at them as a homogeneous blob. It's an opportunity for you to learn and grow.
DeleteWhat do you imagine you are accomplishing by this trolling? Do you think the topic of racism is going to disappear? No more black kids will be shot by cranky white men with guns, simply for ringing a doorbell. No more Citibike Karens will try to steal bikes from black teens? Black birdwatchers will no longer be turned in to police, for being threatening to white women?
DeleteEmployment stats for black workers are going to magically improve because you call for each person to be treated as an individual and insist that all jokes are universal? NAEP scores for black kids will suddenly close the gap!
Certainly, if you no longer disaggregate the scores no one will know the gaps exist. And if you stop classifying people by race in the census, no one will know that those with black skin are being treated differently on the job. And right wingers need no longer be concerned about the lingering effects of segregation, unequal education and so on. I'm sure you would like that. Meanwhile, racist shit keeps happening and it is not because people are not being treated as individuals. It is because too many white people are still racists. And you, apparently, do not want to make modifications to permit minority group members to feel more comfortable by having their diversity respected.
I was on a college tour once, where parents visit places around campus in anticipation of their children applying for admission. One spot was the set of buildings housing the Black Student Union, Hispanic Students, Asian Students, Non-traditional Student Center (for older adults) and so on. One white parent asked where the White Student Union was. The guide pointed out the main student center (with the food court, student store and recreational lounge). The parent said, "No, where is the center for white students, like these other black and Hispanic centers"? Given that white students were the majority on campus, arguing the entire campus is populated by mainly white students and built for their needs. They do not need a place to feel less like a minority, because they are NOT the minority on campus.
Objecting to the need to feel included, at home and relaxed with similar others, denies minority students the ability to feel the way white students feel in most of their classes, dorms and other campus experiences.
The white parent obstinately insisted that the minority students were getting special treatment that was unfair to white students.
I'm not trolling. I'm simply trying to show that you are a racist. That black people do not all think and move as one homogeneous blob and curing racism and institutional racism does not include thinking of them as such. I'm trying to show you that black people don't all tell the same types of jokes. BLack people are not a "subculture"
DeleteThe woman in Central Park was not a conservative racist. She was exactly like yourself making the exact same stereotypes that you are. So I'm saying before you go around lecturing other people about racilm, you need to look in the mirror Miss Thing. Because you are never around black people and you don't know anything about them.
So please if you could tell us the last few times you were around black people and did not understand their jokes. What exactly were the jokes?
DeleteQuite obviously you cannot do this. Because you're never around black people and the whole idea that they have some set of jokes that they cannot understand and that there's another set of jokes that they tell that others can't understand just shows your ignorance. That's all. Don't be ashamed about it. Just stop lecturing others on our topic you don't know anything about.
Yes, you are having your fun today, trying to turn the tables on commenters. But it doesn't change one thing about racism in the world. And you cannot convince me that you aren't part of the problem, because of your clear attitudes that the whole topic of racism is stupid.
DeleteI'm not going to describe my social life to you, but why would you assume I don't know any black people when my grandson is black? There is no way to prove that on the internet and it sounds as lame as David in Cal's black cousin from Yale, named Lizzie. There are other black people in my extended family. But there are jokes my own husband makes that I don't understand and others that I do.
None of that is going to change the experience of racism for black people in our society. But taking the needs of black people seriously, as they express them, will help and I at least want to help -- it is more than you do.
Here is a black joke I don't understand. Snoop Dog calls his new intern Mi-otch. What is funny about that? The ad is obviously mocking white people, judging by the portrayal of Mitch but I don't find golf shirts and khakis funny. So sue me.
People are racist because they engage in racist behavior, not because somebody name-calls them. So you cannot get rid of a racist label by name-calling others. You need to change the way you treat other people.
DeleteClaiming that someone who has said something you dislike doesn't know any black people (without any evidence at all) is just a way to create turmoil in a discussion. It doesn't say anything substantive about racism. It is disruptive troll behavior.
It's just an opportunity for you to learn that black people are not a subculture. That they don't have some common set of cultural references. Black people don't have a set of jokes that they don't get or a set of jokes that they tell that other people will not get. I get to the Snoop Dogg joke. I'm white. The ultimate goal is to look at all people as individuals. And I see suggested here a framework that is exactly the opposite. I mean you have said some extremely ignorant things about Black Americans that are stereotyping in the worst ways! That's why I'm pushing back.
DeleteRace is only one aspect out of thousands that make up a person's identity. Concentrating on just that one can be a little tricky. I see your heart is in the right place. It's just a learning experience. It's good. Go directly today and ask all the black people in your extended family about your belief that black people as a race can't understand an undefined set of jokes. And that they are part of a subculture that is different that needs a place of refuge to deal with these differences that you see and their so-called subculture. Discuss it with them. They will tell you. Talk about what else makes up their identity besides their color and the misunderstandings white people have and only looking at the color. It's very very interesting and fascinating. This is how we get to where we want to go.
DeleteOkay maybe you're around black people but you are not looking at them as individuals with multidimensional identities. You have to get to a place where you understand that. That exact line of thinking is where leads to cases like the Central Park woman. That black and white, if you will, type of thinking and reasoning is what we have to fight against. Just by learning about it and understanding it first that's all.
DeleteYou don't get to define what is and is not a subculture:
Deletehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_culture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subculture
"Collective identity describes people’s sense of personal identity and their connection to a group. This collective identity is manifested in cultural symbols and practices, as well as attitudes, beliefs, and feelings (Ogbu, 2004). Unlike contemporary definitions of culture, collective identity emerges out of a shared collective experience (e.g., colonization, forced labor, North American slavery). Furthermore, Ogbu (1981) argued that aspects of collective identity (e.g., racial socialization) are rooted in culture, in that parents are helping children develop skills necessary to be competent adults within the cultural group. Scholars have also found that racial identity and coping with racism are associated with cultural values. For instance, Gaines et al. (1997) found that racial identity was positively associated with the cultural value orientations of familism and collectivism. Additionally, Cokley (2005) found that belief in Afrocentricity (e.g., unity, cooperative economics) was positively related to Blacks’ use of Afrocentricity to guide their thoughts and behaviors. These findings demonstrate how Black collective values can be considered interdependent with Africultural values and thus important to examine as cultural strengths. In an attempt to capture the most comprehensive understanding of Black cultural values, practices, and beliefs that are associated with strength (i.e., positive social and psychological functioning), we argue that it is important to examine both traditional Africultural values and aspects of collective identity in Black Americans."
Deletehttps://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0095798419889752
Black Cultural Strengths and Psychosocial Well-Being: An Empirical Analysis With Black American Adults
In your assertion that individualism is most important, even in racial identity, you are denying the importance of both collectivism and Afrocentricity with which many black people today define their identity. This particular article on black psychosocial well-being finds that afrocentricity should be regarded as a strength that contributes to positive well-being of black people.
DeleteIt may be more convenient for you, as a white person, to define away black identity that is linked to African-American culture and to their history in the US, but emphasizing that history and culture strengthens coping and well-being of black people. Further, it is a form of oppression to tell other people that they cannot identify with their own culture and history if they wish to. Your individualism may work for you, but you have no right to dictate how others define themselves.
It is not racism when people choose to identify by linking their sense of self to the culture and history of their family and others who are perceived as connected to them, especially when it helps them to deal with current circumstances. It is racist to tell people they cannot so identify.
Black people are not the only ones with a collectivist identity. Asians tend to be collectivist too, as are Hispanics and quite a few other immigrant groups (Irish come to mind).
Denying culture is a form of oppression. For example, Irish were forbidden to sing their folk songs during the British occupation.
I should thank you for clarifying the connection between refusing to teach AP courses in Black History in FL and other red states, and this insistance on individualist identity, and whte supremacist political views and conservative efforts to eliminate the differences that arise in a diverse, multi-cultural society. It tells me what is behind the huge offense that some white people take (leading even to violence) when they hear someone speaking Spanish or an Asian language in public. The goal is to suppress cultural expressions, not to eliminate racism as you pretend.
This misrepresents and overstates what I said in your typical ugly way in order to move the goal posts - "denying culture etc" but thanks for trying.
DeleteWait - are you claiming black are "subculture"? That is shocking!!!! Oh Lord help us!!
DeleteYou must at least work your way through that one.
DeleteProgressions can't be made if we stay separate forever.
The Wikipedia article explicitly differentiates blacks from subcultures. Proving my point.
DeleteIt says not all blacks are part of a subculture not NO blacks are part of a subculture.
DeleteIt makes an explicit differentiation between race and subculture. If you believe blacks are a subculture, it's your business. But that is so gross.
Delete403 yes that is pretty much the most obvious statement in the world. All Blacks are not a subculture.
DeleteNo one made a claim that no blacks were a part of a subculture so why you bring it up, God only knows.
There’s no point to you bringing it up either.
DeleteI didn't.
Deleteyes, you did. You objected to talk about black subculture by saying black is not a subculture. The word refers to both a racial construct and a subculture.
ReplyDeleteI did not mean to imply that no blacks were a part of any subculture just that blacks in America are not in and of itself a subculture. If you think they are. That's really really disgusting. Sub means under. But none of the commenters here have to further prove their ignorance about black people and race. The pathetic racist above thinks that only black people understand Snoop Dogg's jokes!
DeleteThe ignorance and racism of the liberals here is sad.
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ReplyDelete