THE 77 PERCENT CONFUSION: Observing a basic bone-simple distinction!


Interlude—Are journalists up to the task: How much less do women get paid for doing the same or equal work?

On a sweeping societal basis, it isn’t easy to say.

In the court case which became famous, it was fairly easy to say how less Lilly Ledbetter got paid, as compared to men in her office who held the same position. According to the Supreme Court record, Ledbetter was making $3,727 per month, while men doing the same job were being paid between $4,286 to $5,236 per month.

It isn’t obvious that this would be wrong in every imaginable case. People who hold the job title may not be equally productive.

That said, Ledbetter was being paid less than her male counterparts. But that involved just a few people working in just one office. On a sweeping societal basis, it’s hard to say how much less women get paid, on average, for doing the same or equal work.

Estimates do exist! Wikipedia (and others) will send you to a study for the Labor Department which estimates the gap to be 4.8 to 7.1 cents on the dollar for doing the same work.

In this piece for the Daily Beast, Christina Hoff Sommers said the gap narrows to five cents for doing the same work when all relevant factors are considered, “and no one knows if the five cents is a result of discrimination or some other subtle, hard-to-measure difference between male and female workers.”

At Salon, Katie McDonough has cited a 2003 GAO study which seemed to say that the gap remained at 20 cents after accounting for relevant factors. McDonough has also linked to this post, which seems to suggest that the gap is roughly 12 cents for the same or equal work.

We don’t know what the number should be! As best we can tell, it’s hard to say how much less women get paid, on average, for doing the same or equal work. Different people will have different ideas about what factors must be adjusted for. And the incomes of at least a hundred million people are involved in this analysis.

How much less do women get paid for doing the same work? It’s hard to answer that question for at least two other reasons:

As we’ve noted, our biggest news division have pretty much refused to report or analyze this important topic. And uh-oh:

Beyond that, many journalists have been unwilling or unable to observe the bone-simple distinction which lies at the heart of this question.

Two different “gender wage gaps” are in play when we tackle this question. There is the most famous gender wage gap, in which women earn just 77 cents for every dollar earned by men.

That is a real statistic. But as everyone we’ve cited agrees, it isn’t a measure of how much women get paid for doing the same or equal work. Instead, it’s a measure of total annual income for the average man and the average woman, before adjustments are made for such factors as hours worked, type of work and seniority.

As such, that famous statistic isn’t a measure of “discrimination.” It represents a total annual income gap. But as everyone on earth agrees, it isn’t a measure of lesser pay for the same work.

To measure that second “gender wage gap,” you have to make those basic adjustments, as is done in all the studies we’ve cited. Among other things, you have to adjust for hours worked, for seniority, for basic type of employment. (Almost everyone seems to agree that those basic adjustments should be made.)

We’re speaking here about a bone-simple distinction. The famous statistic—77 percent—tells us how much women earn, on average, as compared to men.

Some second statistic tells us how much women earn, on average, for doing the same or equal work. The two statistics are not the same. They measure two different things.

The distinction between those two statistics is a bone-simple distinction. But given the way our discourse works, major journalists constantly fail to observe this basic distinction.

Deliberately or through incomprehension, they wander back and forth between the two different types of measure, creating confusion wherever they go. They fail to observe that bone-simple distinction, in which we try to determine how much of the “gender wage gap” is actually due to discrimination or unequal treatment.

Can we talk? In one area after another, our public discourse is deeply unintelligent. In recent decades, there hasn’t been a topic so simple or so basic that our “press corps” was up to the task of explaining it.

That was true back in 1995, in the press corps’ pathetic attempt to clarify the year-long Medicare debate. Was the GOP proposing Medicare cuts? Or were they proposing to slow the rate at which the program would grow?

The press corps wasn’t up to the challenge of sorting that out. Today, they don’t seem to be up to the challenge of discussing the gender wage gap.

Tomorrow, we’ll offer some high-profile examples of their maddening conduct.

How much less do women get paid for doing the same or equal work? The question is important. It’s going to be discussed all year.

But in order to answer that question, we have to observe a bone-simple distinction. Are American journalists up to that task?

As always, the answer would seem to be no. Tomorrow, some cases in point.

Tomorrow: Warning! Experts at work!


  1. These are two different measures. Somerby suggests that everyone agrees an adjustment should be made (to equate hours worked, type of work, seniority) in order to figure out the amount attributable to discrimination. That is only true if you are focused solely on pay for the same work. But that is not the only important form of discrimination.

    When I started my work life, I applied for a job as a management trainee at a major corporation. I met all the advertised criteria. I was instead tested for and offered a job as a supervisor of a clerical work group, at a much lower salary and with very limited advancement prospects. That occurred solely because I was female. Is that discrimination? According to Somerby's criteria, everyone agrees that the type of work should be equated -- a supervisor of clerical staff should not be compared to a management trainee because they are two different types of work. So it would be entirely justified to say men and women are being paid equally. But what about the fact that I could not be considered for that higher pay job description, despite meeting the qualifications?

    This particular situation was remedied as the result of an EEOC complaint and class-action lawsuit. However, there are many other situations exactly like it that keep women out of higher paying jobs. Are these not also discrimination? Why are these routine situations being deliberately set aside, ignored, in order to focus only on "the same pay for the same work"?

    It makes me suspect that neither Somerby nor the people he is discussing are truly interested in discrimination against women in the workplace.

    1. Don't forget this corker in trying to explain away why Lily Ledbetter, with 20 years on the job, was paid less than every man holding the same job:

      "It isn’t obvious that this would be wrong in every imaginable case. People who hold the job title may not be equally productive."

      Right, Bob. The reason women consistently make less than men -- across all occupational, education and professional lines -- is because women are less productive as a rule.

      Gee, that is so "obvious."

    2. I'm pretty confident Somerby is interested. However, I still have the same problem with his analysis as you do.

      Even if an analysis fully accounts for all the "pay gap" does not mean that there is no discrimination. There may be sex discrimination in hours, education, occupation, promotion.

      Obviously, we'd like to know how much of the gap is due to discrimination in wages, and "77 cents" is not necessarily the right figure.

      On the other hand, we also do not know that equal pay for equal hours, education, etc, means equal pay for equal work. It could be that women with similar hours, education, seniority, etc. are more productive than their male counterparts because they have to prove themselves in order to overcome these other forms of discrimination.

      That means even the "Pay Act" may not solve the problem of pay discrimination, let alone all such discrimination. But we might expect it to address 5-12 cents worth of the 77-- whether pay discrimination truly accounts for 2 cents or 50 cents on the dollar.

      Point is, workers should have access to information which may point to discrimination, but also people need be more careful about using either the "77 cents" or the "5 cents" and in either case take more care when connecting it to the "Pay Act"

  2. 11:30 - Somerby may not be truly interested. But he is discussing the liberal press corps here - not the discrimination issue.

    1. How can anyone read this post and say, with a straight face, that all the minimizing, explaining away, even about the Ledbetter case, is only about the "liberal press" and not about discrimination.

    2. You have to take away your preconceived notions and think about it.

    3. Good advice for Somerby to, as he tries to minimize the Ledbetter case to "just a few people working in just one office."

      What kind of "preconceived notion" could possibly lead anyone to say something that stupid?

      Perhaps Maddow Derangement Syndrome?

    4. Hi 12:27. I read it as him comparing "just a few people working in just one office." to all of society. The 77 cent number is used to discuss the press corps reaction to the macro level problem.

    5. Do you also think that the Lily Ledbetter case was so isolated as the Congressional action it took to give women access to legal remedies was not required?

      After all, that's what Bob "seems" to say when he says it was "just a few people working in just one office".

    6. Hi again - no I don't think that.

    7. Bob seems to think so. After all, it was "just a few people working in one office" and "it was hard to say" if it were occurring on a "sweeping societal basis."

    8. You clearly can't comprehend what you read, 3:26. Whether you are male or female, that poor reading comprehension will hold you back.

      Or else you're just a bullshit artist. In which case, keep up the good work!

    9. And here comes the well-worn "poor reading comprehension" insult.

      I guess you, like your Master, are unable to come up with new schtick.

    10. The case itself manifestly was about only a few people. To observe this does not minimize the case, or its impact. One requires no master to see this. You have an axe to grind.

      And you can't read well. May be an old shoe, but it fits you.

    11. That's like saying the next mass shooting itself manifestly will be about only a few people -- the shooter and his victims.

      If you truly think the Ledbetter Act was only about Lily and her 15 male co-workers with the same job at higher pay, then you've lost your ability to think.

  3. Here are some important facts about the Lilly Ledbetter case that Bob disappears and minimizes because "that involved a few people working in one office."

    Lily Ledbetter was one of 16 Goodyear "area managers." The other 15 were men. She made less than all 15 men -- substantially less -- despite the fact she had been doing that job for nearly 20 years, and many of those men had far less seniority.

    She only discovered that years later. She sued under the 1963 Equal Pay Act. Her case was dismissed because she didn't file it within 180 days of received her first paycheck. She filed suit only after she learned about the pay disparity.

    That's why we have the Lily Ledbetter act to remove that statute of limitations and makes it possible for women to sue when they find out that their pay is less because they are women.

    Does Somerby object to that?

    Also, this whole "wage gap" debate is raging over the proposed Paycheck Fairness Act which also would close some loopholes in the 1963 law. It is now stuck in the Senate on party-line votes and unable to break the Republican filibuster and get it to the floor.

    What is Bob's position on that bill? Unnecessary, perhaps, because his shrewd analysis which closely mirrors Republican talking points, shows that the problem isn't really all that bad, and that women are being discriminated against only a little bit?

    Of course, Bob's few fans will now rush to his defense and say it is not the shrewd media analyst's job to say whether he favors policy changes that will close the gap between the earnings of men and women.

    Nope, it is his job only to bitch and moan about Rachel Maddow and how she is deceiving America with all this "unequal pay for equal work" shinola, even if that means becoming a part of right-wing echo chamber and dutifully repeating all the talking points because he can't think up any new ones on his own.

    1. Perhaps if you're trying to convince people on an issue, lying about its nature isn't the best approach.

      But carry on.

    2. Matt, instead of swallowing the right-wing talking points Somerby is feeding you, try to do some independent research to learn the truth before you accuse anyone of lying.

      You won't wind up looking like such a toady. And who knows? You might even learn something.

    3. "That's why we have the Lily Ledbetter act to remove that statute of limitations and makes it possible for women to sue when they find out that their pay is less because they are women."

      "Does Somerby object to that?"

      There's certainly no reason to suppose so on the evidence in today's commentary, no.

    4. There is no reason to "suppose" that he supports the Ledbetter Act or the pending Paycheck Fairness Act which is at the root of the renewed discussion on gender pay inequity.

      In fact, in his seal to minimize the gap and explain it away, he uses the exact same arguments as those who vigorously oppose both the Ledbetter Act and the Paycheck Fairness Act.

  4. Great analysis, Bob. I can use this for class, crediting you of course.


    1. Oh, your poor students!

      I got a better idea, professor. Instead of pulling material off blogs, how about having your students research this issue themselves?

    2. What makes you think he isn't the student?

    3. Good point. Now I pity the poor student who cites Somerby as a source for anything.

  5. Anon @ 11:39 Can we talk?

    You are demonstrating a mastery of the lessons here from the OTB at TDH. You write:

    "he is discussing the liberal press corps here."

    We note, and others may as well, that BOB never used the word "liberal" in this post. Alas, not once!

    That means in your reading, he implied the journalists to whom he was referring were part of the "liberal press corps." This is excellent. Reading words that are not there, determining the implication in your own mind, then writing something as if those words are clear to all is exactly the technique which is a hallmark of BOBism. It can be seen clearly throughout his stellar work on this very topic of the gender wage gap.

    However, you miss a bone simple distinction necessary to be a faithful follower of BOBism. You must, before incanting nonexistent words or phrases, use a Magical Modifier. These are considered magical because they cover your posterior from accusations you are, dare we use the term, prevaricating.

    We have already used one, "implied". Others might be "suggested" "seems" or "inferred." If you want to get to a higher level "clearly" can be added to any of the magical modifiers.

    Example: BOB seems to be tired of getting his hindquarters kicked on the substance of the issue of the gender pay gap, so he wrote a transition post suggesting he will cover that bruised posterior in an effort to divert attention back to his favorite target, the press corps, which he and others often imply is liberal.


    1. Good point. I shouldn't have said liberal. He is covering the "mainstream press corps" here and the American discourse.

    2. You must go to confessional, young commenter! BOBists never admit error or doubt in their faith in magical implications.


    3. Can I play the Bob game, too?

      Bob "seems" to "imply" that he opposes the Paycheck Fairness Act that can't seem to break the Republican filibuster because he recites all of the opposing "analysis" of it, and dismisses all arguments in favor out of hand.

      But we don't know. He won't say. That is because he is uniquely positioned as a "liberal" to tell the "liberal" press what not to say, even if his own brilliant analysis is nothing more than regurgitating everything said on Fox News or Rush Limbaugh's show about the bill.

    4. Except, of course, that Bob certainly "seems" to have narrowed his definition of "mainstream press" he pays attention to in rather extreme fashion.

  6. Once again, Vice President Al Gore, April 3, 1998: "It is not merely a matter of women with the same positions as men getting lower pay, it is also a matter of women with the same merit as men getting lower positions. Women in almost all types of jobs make less than men."

    Bob started this blog two days earlier, and there is no indication of him saying anything about his old roomie's comments about equal pay and opportunity for women.

    But of course, he may have been distracted in those earliest days by all the thoughts running through his head.

    So during the campaign of 2000, Gore frequently repeated his concern for the inequality of earnings between men and women, even citing the then true, "73 percent gap" in his campaign literature.

    Again, crickets chirping on TDH.

    But then again, that was years before the Rachel Maddow Show debuted.

    1. Was that a big issue in the media then?

      Why are you trolls incapable of grasping that?

    2. Yes, as a matter of fact, equal pay for women was a big issue then in the media. I got the 1998 Gore quote off CNN.

      But explain this, in addition to going after Maddow, et al, Bob also went after Obama and what he said in the State of the Union address, going so far as to take his words out of all context and accuse him of "misleading" the people.

      Then he also accused Democrats of using this issue solely to pander to women voters.

      Now if he were truly limiting himself to "media" criticism why would he have anything at all to say about Obama, or what the Democratic Party motives are?

      While of course, ignoring that his ol' college roomie was saying the same things years ago?

    3. The crickets always chirp here when The Howler commits a howler of his own -- such as this bone-simple contradiction you have identified a few times. Doesn't exactly do wonders for credibility.

    4. So when did Bob first start howling about the "gender wage gap" and that "misleading" but true, statistic? Before or after Rachel Maddow took to the air?

    5. Go to his search engines here an at the Incomparaable Archives.

    6. I did. Found nothing when Al Gore was citing a misleading statistic and using it to pander to women voters.

      In fact, can't find anything about "gender wage gap" until recently, when Maddow started in on it.

      Of course, the statistic Gore cited then is misleading now, when Maddow cites it.

    7. Did Gore say that the "73 cents" was due to discrimination in pay? Quite plainly, your quote says the opposite-- that it was also a matter of women getting "lower positions." That is, he explicitly pointed out the kind of thing that gets controlled for in these 5-12 cent studies.

      In other words, Gore did provide exactly the kind of context for his figure that Somerby would like to see provided by others. So why should Somerby have "howled" at Gore?

    8. And, of course, women getting "lower positions" can't possibly be a matter of discrimination, can it?

    9. With whom are you arguing, exactly?

  7. Matt, when did you first learn the word "troll" in the blogging context, and what do you think it means?

    1. Can one of the Usual Trolls take a guess, ul?



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  25. i am giving this testimony cos l am happy My name is mrs. Lara Mark from Houston,taxes.i never believed in love spells or magic until i met this spell caster once. when i went to Africa in July this year on a business summit. i ment a man called dr. UKO.He is powerful he could help you cast a spells to bring back my love’s gone,misbehaving lover looking for some one to love you, bring back lost money and magic money spell or spell for a good job.i’m now happy & a living testimony cos the man i had wanted to marry left me 3 weeks before our wedding and my life was upside down cos our relationship has been on for 2 years… i really loved him, but his mother was against me and he had no good paying job. so when i met this spell caster, i told him what happened and explained the situation of things to first i was undecided,skeptical and doubtful, but i just gave it a try. and in 6 days when i returned to taxes, my boyfriend (is now my husband ) he called me by himself and came to me apologizing that everything had been settled with his mom and family and he got a new job interview so we should get married..i didn’t believe it cos the spell caster only asked for my name and my boyfriends name and all i wanted him to do… well we are happily married now and we are expecting our little kid,and my husband also got a new job and our lives became much better. in case anyone needs the spell caster for some help, email address Great UKO i thank you very much thank you in 1000000 times.. if not you i would have been losted and wasted thank you. please make sure you contact him for any financial difficulties okay.. What a powerful man such as Dr UKO.. he is so much powerful..\\ email him for any difficulties.. or his website:

  26. I do not know how to explain thoroughly how to define love, because I think love in the minds of everyone is different. And I also was not a gambling man in the form of super-obvious, because what pleasure I had no gamble
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  27. I never thought that there will be a miracle on the internet until i came in contact with Priest Babaka, finally i made it with his help, with his spiritual power which was recommended by a lady in baby center he help before, i never believe it was real until i confirm it now because i have tried so many things to make sure i get pregnant but no luck, immediately i contact him. he did some spiritual prayers and send me a medicine which i took, i got pregnant three weeks after, and i now have a son to show. thank you so much priest and i recommend Priest Babaka for everyone out there that is willing to have a child of her own out there. contact him for help too he is real and powerful, i have confirmed it, contact him on email: or Facebook at priest.babaka

  28. I was cured of herpes simplex virus 1 & 2 and Hepatitis-b by a great herbal doctor called Dr Lucky with the use of different combination of Africa herbs. it is still like a dream to me. There is no word suitable enough to qualify your significance in my life dear doctor. You can contact him via, My little way to appreciate you doctor is to advertise your great work and that is exactly what i am doing now ...Whatsapp phone number +22378760009