Supplemental: Kevin Drum keeps getting it right!

TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 17, 2015

As our tribe keeps getting it wrong:
Our recent critiques of Kevin Drum have really begun to pay off! To cite just one example, we strongly recommend his new post about Syrian refugees.

Gack! In the passage shown below, Drum describes the type of behavior within Our Own Tribe which we've spent recent years lamenting. In our view, Drum is perfectly right in what he says here. If anything, he understates the size of the political problem at issue.

Warning! Drum is discussing "the average person," a person our tribe loves to hate:
DRUM (11/17/15): Here's the thing: to the average person, it seems perfectly reasonable to be suspicious of admitting Syrian refugees to the country. We know that ISIS would like to attack the US. We know that ISIS probably has the wherewithal to infiltrate a few of its people into the flood of refugees. And most voters have no idea how easy it is to get past US screening. They probably figure it's pretty easy.

So it doesn't seem xenophobic or crazy to call for an end to accepting Syrian refugees. It seems like simple common sense. After all, things changed after Paris.

Mocking Republicans over this—as liberals spent much of yesterday doing on my Twitter stream—seems absurdly out of touch to a lot of people. Not just wingnut tea partiers, either, but plenty of ordinary centrists too. It makes them wonder if Democrats seriously see no problem here. Do they care at all about national security? Are they really that detached from reality?
We weren't exposed to Drum's Twitter stream, but we agree with those highlighted points. For the record, Drum supports admitting those refugees. He opposes trashing average people who are inclined to a different view.

Almost surely, denying admission to Syrian refugees will seem like common sense to vast numbers of people. Based on Drum's Twitter stream and our tribe's past behavior, many players in our tribe will respond with air strikes, dropping their R-, B- and X-bombs on the heads of these evil-doers.

That would be pitifully dumb on the merits, even worse on the politics. Alas! Watching tape of Saturday's Dem debate, we were struck by how horrible the politics of this issue will almost certainly be:
DICKERSON (11/14/15): Secretary Clinton, let me ask you a question from Twitter which has come in, and this is a question on this issue of refugees. The question is, with the U.S. preparing to absorb Syrian refugees, how do you propose we screen those coming in to keep citizens safe?

CLINTON: I think that is the number-one requirement. I also said that we should take increased numbers of refugees. The administration originally said 10,000. I said we should go to 65,000, but only if we have as careful a screening and vetting process as we can imagine, whatever resources it takes because I do not want us to, in any way, inadvertently allow people who wish us harm to come into our country.
As a general matter, we're strongly opposed to making predictions, since they always turn out to be wrong. That said, it's hard to believe that the politics of that highlighted statement won't be extremely difficult.

Drum speaks on behalf of the average person, the person our tribe loves to hate. We'll only suggest that the great progressive/liberal achievers have tended to be the people who don't react to The Others that way.

Historically, the great progressive/liberal achievers have tended to be the people who can see themselves in others, even in those who may not support them:

We think of the young Dr. King, pitying the city fathers of Montgomery. "Even their churches and ministers" taught them to see the world through the lens of race, he wrote, sympathetically, in a stunning passage in Stride Toward Freedom.

We think of Mandela, inviting one of his jailers to be his guest at his inauguration.

We think of Lincoln, at the time of victory, refusing, even then, to declare his own beliefs and his own cause right in the eyes of God, as he made the most radical statement in the history of moral statements:
LINCOLN (3/4/65): Neither party expected for the war, the magnitude, or the duration, which it has already attained. Neither anticipated that the cause of the conflict might cease with, or even before, the conflict itself should cease. Each looked for an easier triumph, and a result less fundamental and astounding. Both read the same Bible, and pray to the same God; and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God’s assistance in wringing their bread from the seat of other men’s faces; but let us judge not that we be not judged.

The prayers of both could not be answered; that of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has His own purposes. "Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!" If we shall suppose that American Slavery is one of those offences which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South, this terrible war, as the woe due to those by whom the offence came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a Living God always ascribe to Him?

Fondly do we hope—fervently do we pray—that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue, until all the wealth piled by the bond-man’s two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash, shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said “the judgments of the Lord, are true and righteous altogether.”
Both sides have been profoundly punished, and the punishment may continue. But no one can call this outcome unjust, the victor in this war said.

In the more modern political context, we also think of President Clinton, explaining why Arkansas' Pentecostals are the finest people he's ever known, even though they rarely supported him politically. “Knowing the Pentecostals has enriched and changed my life,” Clinton wrote in his book, My Life. “Whatever your religious views, or lack of them, seeing people live their faith in a spirit of love toward all people, not just your own, is beautiful to behold. If you ever get a chance to go to a Pentecostal service, don’t miss it.”

Whatever your religious views—or lack of them. Clinton was suggesting that liberals reach out to others, see the merit in people unlike us. Historically, people seem to admire, like, revere and remember progressives and liberals of this stripe.

By way of contrast, our own liberal tribe is full of love—the love of tribal loathing. At times like these, we hurry to do the political work of those on the other side.

82 comments:

  1. Somerby today:

    "As a general matter, we're strongly opposed to making predictions, since they always turn out to be wrong."

    Somerby yesterday:

    "For eighteen years, we've been trying to warn you, much as Cassandra once did:"

    ReplyDelete
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      Delete
  2. "That said, it's hard to believe that the politics of that highlighted statement won't be extremely difficult."

    Yes, it is hard to believe a policy statement Clinton made some time ago won't be used against her. But what takes genius posessed only by the likes of Bob Somerby, is to blame that political difficulty on what liberals do or do not say on Twitter.

    ReplyDelete
  3. It is good to see Somerby's first post after what happened in Paris echos what Chris Matthews said yesterday about these dangerous refugees.
    I am glad he realizes not all of these people streaming our way will be Malala.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Several of my relatives have posted on Facebook enthusiastic support for taking in Isalmic migrants. This is called "virtue-signaling". It makes them feel like they're the good guys. What they ignore is that there's a cost involved.

    Obviously there's the risk that some terrorists may be included among the migrants. But, another point is that Muslims are not always the most desirable of immigrants. In general, Islamic immigrants have not been quick to merge into the greater culture of their new country. Some of them behaved badly. In France, Muslims commit so much violence against Jews that Jews are literally being driven out of the country. In Rotherham, England, Muslims forced hundreds of young girls into prostitution, using the most brutal of methods. In the US, free speech has already been restricted. During the furor over the Danish cartoons, the actual cartoons were censored by the mainstream media, due to some combination of political correctness and fear.

    For all these reasons, I think there will be a lot of opposition to bringing large numbers of Muslims into the country. This will be a winning issue for the Republicans.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. David, the Rotherham offenders are Pakistani. Should we bar Malala Yousafzai from entering the United States? She's a Muslim and a Pushtun -- the nationality most Taliban come from.

      Delete
  5. We've seen a lot of hateful rhetoric from the GOP. But the idea that we'd turn away refugees because of religion is a new low.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. That's an example of "virtue-signaling".

      Delete
    2. Actually the idea that even after Paris a sitting President would bring in tens of thousands of Islamic migrants and settle them in our borders is high treason.

      Delete
    3. There's no evidence any of those refugees would pose a threat. None of the Paris attackers were refugees. Without threat how can it be treason -- and why use such an emotionally loaded word?

      Delete
    4. Actually yes, one or more of the Paris attackers were recent "refugees," a fact that weighs considerably on the stupidity of Obama's stubborn intransigence. It is treason because he is giving aid and comfort to america's enemies by allowing them safe harbor within our borders. Much like the current feckless rulers of England, France, and Germany, he apparently cares much more for the well being of Islamic migrants halfway across the globe then for the safety of his subjects.

      Delete
    5. "one or more"?

      Proof of "more"? You know what Obama "cares for"? Based upon your keen Rush Limbaugh-like insight?

      You invite mockery, the actual subject of the post you're commenting on with your bullshit.

      Delete
    6. Those identified are French and Belgian. Are you referring to the forged Syrian passport? It is a fake. None of the attackers were Syrian.

      Delete
    7. David in Cal is just one of those "Daddy Government save me!" guys going way back.

      Delete
    8. We are not a nation that delivers children back into the hands of ISIS murderers.

      Delete
    9. 9:16 We're a nation that is capable of coming up with rational and non-suicidal solutions when hysterics like yours are ignored.

      Delete
  6. It would be nice if these same people weren't telling us that living in fear of gun-wielding mass-shooters wasn't the price we pay for our freedom.

    It's not about safety with these people. It's about (tribal) politics.

    Berto

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Huh? No law proposed by any Democrat would prevent mass shooters. Mass shooters don't obey the law.

      Delete
    2. So let's make it as easy as possible for mass shooters to commit mass murder. After all, laws don't work.

      Delete
    3. We already make it easy as possible for mass shooters by having gun-free zones, whiere they can shoot without the risk of someone shooting back at them.

      Delete
    4. Yes, we need gun-filled zones to cut down on gun violence. And this guy should be reasoned with?

      He invites mockery. It would be impolite to refuse.

      Delete
    5. David in Cal,
      Good point. Let;s give them refugee status AND a gun.

      Berto

      Delete
    6. Soapy -- Is President Obama is greater danger because he's surrounded by Secret Service men with guns? Of course not. Those guns lessen his danger.

      Guns in the hands of bad guys increase danger. Guns in the hands of good guys decrease danger. Good guys obey gun-free-zone laws. Bad guys don't.

      Delete
    7. When was the last time a secret service person fired a gun while protecting the president? How many threats do you think are made against the president? You don't have such shootings because the secret service deals with threats without guns. That is their job.

      Delete
    8. "gun-free zones"

      You mean like the US Capitol Building while Congress is in session? Let's make the halls of Congress open carry zones. Jackass.

      Delete
    9. We'll show those hypocrites. Let's bring in throngs of people we know include mass shooters and suicide bombers and people likely to inspire new mass shooters and bombers.

      Delete
    10. David the Guitar PlayerNovember 18, 2015 at 12:51 PM

      Anon 12:28 - You forget that we *already* have throngs of people who we are mass shooters *already* living among us who have easy access to powerful military-style weapons. You seem to believe that the incoming refugees are not people like you and me. Keeping out the refugees does *not* make us safe. The dangerous wackos are already here.

      Delete
    11. 12:51, that's right! We already have them and no way of identifying them in advance. Let's bring a population we know contains more of them, who have the motive and support to be even more "efficient"!

      Delete
    12. 1:52,
      What motive might that be?

      Delete
    13. Sweet martyrdom for punishing and eradicating those who would draw the wrong cartoons and worship the wrong god?

      Delete
    14. Lone mass murdering nuts in America are called lone nuts by almost all other Americans. Murderous Islamists are strongly supported and encouraged by millions.

      Delete

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    ReplyDelete
  8. Bob, Drum didn't get it right. Drum fell into the same abyss that pushed us into Iraq in 2003. Remember, Democratic electeds should just advocate for a UN resolution and let W's administration take it from there.

    We're in this mess because people who knew that the Great IraqDemocracy Demonstration Project would turn into dross were ignored. We're here, because Democratic electeds in Congress went to ground and sat back while the War Train barreled out of the station.

    You may not like the tone of theTweets and the comments, but bringing Syrian refugees into the U.S. Is the right thing to do. Shaming the GOP electeds is the way to go on this one.

    TW in Bolton Hill

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Neither Somerby nor Drum said we shouldn't admit refugees. They said we shouldn't mock those with different opinions. Shaming doesn't lead to changes in belief. It makes people defensive and more entrenched in their views.

      Delete
    2. Don't mock them for their different opinions.
      Mock them for their abject hypocrisy.

      Delete
    3. "Shaming doesn't lead to changes in belief. It makes people defensive and more entrenched in their views."

      Refuting their dishonesty, and bringing facts to the discussion doesn't lead to changes in these people's beliefs either.
      They're dead-enders. Fuck 'em.

      Delete
    4. We are not a nation that delivers children back into the hands of ISIS murderers.

      Delete
    5. 9:17, as if there is no other solution between that and wholesale admission.

      Delete
  9. Bob's audience has left the building.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Drum still has credibility in this matter, because he does from time to time attempt to hold the right responsible for their venal insanity. Bob at this point , essentially eggs them on. Can you miss his barely repressed delight in that Clinton will have to answer for helping the refuges?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. How is it that we can all read the same words written by Somerby and yet take away such different ideas about what was said?

      Delete
    2. Keep reading, one day you might catch on.

      Delete
  11. Another Democrat breaks ranks:

    Schumer: Refugee pause may be necessary
    Sen. Charles Schumer (N.Y.), the third ranking member of the Senate Democratic leadership, on Tuesday said it may be necessary to halt the resettlement of Syrian refugees in the United States.


    ReplyDelete
  12. "These are the same folks oftentimes who suggest that they’re so tough that just talking to Putin or staring down ISIL, or using some additional rhetoric somehow is going to solve the problems out there. But apparently, they’re scared of widows and orphans coming into the United States of America as part of our tradition of compassion. First, they were worried about the press being too tough on them during debates. Now they’re worried about three-year-old orphans. That doesn’t sound very tough to me."

    And then there are those who say we should not mock such people.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Widows and orphans? Is there some reason you left out "young angry males"? Oversight, most likely.

      Delete
  13. Hillary is in on the act. Now behaving like the other stunted children that represent her party, throwing around H bombs.

    Hillary Clinton ‏@HillaryClinton
    We've seen a lot of hateful rhetoric from the GOP. But the idea that we'd turn away refugees because of religion is a new low. -H

    ReplyDelete
  14. Is it mockery to point out that the Paris bombing were pulled off by Citizens not refugees? Is it mockery to point out that Governors declaring people in the country legally can not be banned from entering their states is a falsehood? Trying to allay fears with facts is not mockery! Feeding fears with falsehoods is!

    ReplyDelete
  15. Oh yeah, we're going to let in tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of un-vettable Syrian refugees and among them will be radicalized jihadists who blow people up at concerts! Yeah right! Where do they come up with this shit? Dumb toothless rubes! Don't they know concerts and cafes are our Safe Spaces? Slack jawed drooling racists!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Have you already forgotten that we already have people showing up at theaters and shooting people? What makes you think refugees are so different from the us?

      Delete
    2. They're not. Which is why it's insane to import a population reasonably assumed to contain a disproportionate number of mass murderers.

      Delete
    3. Your comments make me assume you are capable of mass murder and I should have the right to demand you be exported.

      Delete
    4. 12:21,
      I get your sarcasm, but those who make this argument aren't necessarily "slack-jawed drooling racists". It's the audience they are speaking to, who are the "slack-jawed drooling racists".

      Delete
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