Supplemental: Round 2 from the provocateur Drum!

THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 2015

The way we humans function:
Have the Paris attacks changed the shape of the White House campaign?

We have no way of knowing. Last Saturday, it was painful to watch Candidate Clinton walking the line this way:
DICKERSON (11/14/15): Secretary Clinton, you mentioned radical jihadists. Marco Rubio, also running for president, said...the attack in Paris showed that we are at war with radical Islam. Do you agree with that characterization, "radical Islam?"

CLINTON: I don't think we're at war with Islam. I don't think we're at war with all Muslims. I think we're at war with jihadists who have—

DICKERSON: Just to interrupt. He didn't say all Muslims. He just said radical Islam.
Oof! However you judge the political wisdom of those competing phrases, 99 percent of all American voters are going to notice when Candidate Clinton dodges a question that way.

Oof! In Saturday's Democratic debate, moderator John Dickerson asked Clinton if she's opposed to use of the phrase "radical Islam." Candidate Clinton started answering as if she'd been asked something else.

Quite correctly, Dickerson interrupted and asked his question again. In our view, 99 percent of all voters will notice that kind of dodge, especially at a time like this. To many voters, it will seem to signal that they're getting conned or duped in some way.

Perhaps the fear caused by the Paris attacks will blow over. If not, the politics may be bad for Dems, in part because of the depressing ground Kevin Drum has trod once again.

On Tuesday, Drum suggested that liberals should tone down the mockery and the insults when voters express fear concerning Syrian refugees. Incomparably, we linked to his post and agreed.

On Wednesday, Drum returned to the topic. He provided a sampling of the reactions his good sound advice had provoked:
Reactions to Kevin Drum's good sound advice
Mockery is a reasonable response to the ridiculous.

"Low information voters" = bad citizens.

It's the equivalent of the Japanese internment hysteria, it deserves ridicule.

"Syrian terrorists" may be an existential threat, but gun waving rednecks are more likely to shoot me. Mock them? Gimme a break.

This @kdrum article is exactly why people don't like mealy-mouthed Liberals. This is a moral issue, not a compromised tactic.

Same objections against Vietnamese, Jews, Irish... same ol' catering to nativism, again & again. No more, thank you.

If voters are too racist stupid or sheeple to support progressives Dems Sanders that's their fault not ours

Oh, their fears are understandable all right. Xenophobia is widely understood. So is naked racism and Islamophobia.

@kdrum wants us to treat these concerns as if they are good faith security concerns, not racism.

Many "ordinary" voters are racists & know-nothings who do not want to be educated *or* calmed. Listen to callers on talk radio.

Let's remember that it's politicians we are mocking.
Drum said he wasn't cherry-picking. You'd have to be clueless to doubt him.

These are typical types of reaction from modern pseudo-liberals. If you've ever read comment threads at sites like Salon, you already know that.

Such comments raise a basic question about the way we humans function. Simply put, many humans don't believe that disagreements can occur in good faith.

Our liberal tribe is crawling with people who see the world that way. To these self-impressed folk, an issue like this is a moral issue. And we liberals are on the right side!

That means that people who disagree are on the wrong side of a moral issue. That means that they are simply bad people. It means they're morally Other.

At this point, we typically get out our bombs. Plainly, such people are racists! (As you can see from Drum's list, we deploy our N-bombs and X-bombs too.)

You might have thought that thinking like this disappeared as part of the Enlightenment. If you thought that, you were wrong. Our liberal tribe is full of people who love to loathe The Others while in the process of killing the pig. They live in a province of prehistory, and they're proud to announce it.

Those comments come from God's little acre, the place our tribe has always liked to ridicule. Truthfully, it makes little sense to try to reason with the people who make them.

They're right on the merits and morally good. Everyone else is not.

At times of fear and dislocation, these attitudes can be very destructive to liberal/progressive political interests. Our own Dimmesdales will push ahead with their attitude anyhoo.

This attitude has been widely observed since we humans first crawled from the mud. In fairness, it really has to be said:

"If voters are too racist or stupid, it's their fault, not ours!"

58 comments:

  1. Calling WWII Nazis "Anti-Semites" was a loser politically, and did nothing to change those Nazi minds. Unless you had put yourself in their Aryan shoes, you were just a tribal bomb-thrower.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. People didn't call those WWII Nazis anti-Semites during that time period. That came later. They were anti-Semitic but no one was calling them that when Hitler's picture was appearing on Time Magazine's cover and he was making the trains run on time.

      Delete
  2. After the Russian plane was bombed, I'm now afraid of Schweppes cans, and think they should not be allowed in this great country.

    Make sure not to mock me, because I can be reasoned with.

    ReplyDelete
  3. "However you judge the political wisdom of those competing phrases, 99 percent of all American voters are going to notice when Candidate Clinton dodges a question that way."

    one paragraph later

    "In our view, 99 percent of all voters will notice that kind of dodge, especially at a time like this. To many voters, it will seem to signal that they're getting conned or duped in some way."

    Here's the thing, Ms Clinton is perhaps thinking of the 99% (hey, i too can pull a figure out my ass), of the planet's 1.2 billion muslims who would think "Radical Islam" is referring to them, not simply the jihadists. Maybe she's thinking of her roll as future president trying to find allies in that part of the world. Maybe she's simply taking the high road for a change.

    Now, i know it's satisfying for old, frightened white dudes (i.e., Fox viewers) to hear politicians spew fear and hatred at a time like this. To some of us, it's satisfying to see them avoid doing that, even if it might not get cheers from the imagined 99% of voters.

    If anyone thinks she'll lose in 2016 because she calls them "jihadists" rather than "radical islamists" they are dopes.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. There are Muslims trying to modernize Islam from within. They are considered radical by many within that faith. When you mean jihadist, what is wrong with using that term? Calling it a "dodge" is unfair when Clinton is correct to clarify the reporter's question by using the better term.

      Delete
    2. 8:04, since you wrote this in response to my post (3:29) i assume it's in reference to that post. Briefly, i fully agree with you and in fact that was my very point.

      Delete
    3. Saying "radical" jihadists is unnecessary repetition. All jihadists are "radical." I prefer "Islamic militants."

      Delete
    4. I like "cloud fairy fanatics" myself.

      Delete
  4. Typical liberal tribe, calling the American Right xenophobes, bigots and racists.
    The American Right is just trying to protect themselves, their families, and the American way of life. Like they did in 2008, when they called for banning white people from the financial industry and Wall Street.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Why are liberals happy about large numbers of immigrants coming from a culture that's homophobic, anti-semitic, anti-women's rights, anti-separation of church and state, and anti-free speech?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. immigrants... refugees... Whatever, right David?

      (Not going to say, if you're from a culture that's "homophobic, anti-semitic, anti-women's rights, anti-separation of church and state, and anti-free speech" you'll find yourself welcomed with open arms -- we have a lot of folks just like that here. They're called the GOP. Nope, not going to say it. It's a softball.)

      Delete
    2. Anon -- both words properly describe them. These people are fleeing a terrible situation, and they are also coming here to live permanently.

      But, you didn't answer my question 7:37. These refugees come from a culture with the opposite morality of Democrats, So, why are Democrats happy to have them live here?

      Conservatives would answer that liberals don't really care about free speech, women's rights, gay rights, minorities, etc.. They claim that what mainly motivates liberals is virtue-signaling.

      Delete
    3. There is a difference between an immigrant and a refugee.

      Democrats are happy to have them here despite their holding conservative values because the Democratic party values the American policy of welcoming and offering refuge to those fleeing other countries. It is right there on the Statue of Liberty, it is inherent in how most of us got here ourselves, and it has historically strengthened our nation to welcome immigrants.

      In order to engage in virtue signaling, there has to be virtue. You seem to be arguing that the virtue being signaled doesn't exist. You can't have this both ways.

      Delete
  6. Bob, what you may have missed in Secretary Clinton's remarks is that she recognizes that she's not just answering a question that will be heard by Joe or Jenny Fox Viewer, but people, even Muslims around the world. As the Secretary of State, Ms. Clinton practiced something that we in mid-town Baltimore like to call, diplomacy.

    I smart practitioner of that wacky thing called, diplomacy, might want to signal to the millions of Muslims on our planet, that President Clinton won't wage war on their religion. That a Hillary Clinton administration recognizes that the people most likely to be terrorized by ISIL, are people living in Syria, or Iraq, or even Nigeria. I get the sense that she'd like them to know that the West wants to partner with them to defeat the people who are dystroying their lives.

    Hillary Clinton knows that there's a wider audience for her statements than just the 10 million Americans watching that debate.

    Do you?

    TW from Bolton Hill

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I don't get it, TW. Since Muslims in Syria, Iraq, etc. are the most likely victims of Radical Islam, why wouldn't they be happy to hear Ms. Clinton denounce Radical Islam?

      Delete
    2. The commenter @ 8:04 PM explained the inherent ambiguity with the term "radical" in certain parts of the world. Not surprising that you either ignored or disregarded the comment in bloviating @ 8:05 PM.

      It's truly hilarious that you, a radical teahadist presumes to posit what a Muslim might prefer to hear.

      Delete
  7. I thought Clinton bested Obama in the 2008 debates, but if she wants to win this election, she's going to have to either answer the question posed to her, or dodge it in a much more subtle way. This shouldn't be that hard for her. She's the smartest candidate available.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hillary is very smart, but I think Cruz is even smarter.
      Famed Harvard Law School professor Alan Dershowitz ranks Sen. Ted Cruz among the school’s smartest students...Cruz was a “terrific student,” Dershowitz told The Daily Caller. “He was always very active in class, presenting a libertarian point of view. He didn’t strike me as a social conservative, more of a libertarian.”

      “He had brilliant insights and he was clearly among the top students, as revealed by his class responses,” Dershowitz added.


      http://dailycaller.com/2013/05/09/dershowitz-tex-cruz-one-of-harvard-laws-smartest-students/

      Delete
    2. What good is being smart if you have no heart?

      Delete
    3. Two foolish comments from people who probably regard themselves as smart.

      Delete
    4. Then how come he behaves like a juvenile stupid jackass all the time David? What's he trying to get into a schoolyard fight with the President of the United States?

      Has this genius figured out what that fifth government agency is that he wants to abolish yet?

      "Insult me to me face" WFT is that? Nobody in his own party likes the guy. Tailgunner Ted - elect him and he'll make Mark Levin Attorney General and Rush Limbaugh Chairman of the Joints Chiefs of Chickenhawks.

      Has the United States Army invaded Texas yet?

      Bwahahahaha!

      Delete
    5. D in C, you can be smart and also a psychopath.

      Delete
    6. I think Hillary bested Obama in the debates too. And she won the most votes. And I wish Obama would come back so Ted Cruz can say this to his face.

      Delete
  8. With regards to Hillary and foreign policy, this is one of the few times i've seen her make the correct decision or the correct statement. Meaning, she didn't get caught up in the hysteria.

    As for "Radical Islam" it's a stupid term. #1, it's meaningless, #2 it will be used by ISIL to claim the US is at war with Islam and #3 using it is simply weak pandering to the FOX TV crowd, who won't vote for her anyway.

    Bottom line HRC's election committe should come to this site everyday, try to decipher Bob's point (he's not known for brevity or clarity) and then do the exact opposite.

    ReplyDelete
  9. I've often carped that Bob never writes about defense spending and the way the issue is not covered, to a ridiculous extent. I've suspected that there is a creeping Archie Bunkerism to the guy, and that may be true. He equates patriotism with swaggering military power, and he went to absurd extremes in defending W's invasion of Iraq. Yet I now believe there is more to it than that....
    He just doesn't understand much about world affairs. He's a provincial. This is why he was so clueless in insisting Mel Gibson was not a jew baiter, etc. He's just not really INTERESTED in what is going on with other peoples and cultures.
    His "gotcha" of Hillary Clinton here won't mean much in a year and it shouldn't. She was being baited by an idiot journalist, one among many who are flag waiving for fun and profit and trying to scare the hell out of everyone. What exactly is "radical" Islam? The ratings getting kind. A major conservative pundit in this country believes Women should not have the vote. Are the idiots who buy her books "radical Republicans?"
    As far as what will and will not win Presidential elections, Bob's recent record predictions have not faired well, as when he counseled Obama not to use the 47% quote as it was not really offensive to working class Americans anyway.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Bob Somerby's first post yesterday was his most bizarre work yet. This post might convince the half dozen or so devoted readers he still has that he is capable of crawling back across that fuzzy line dividing those who can control their faculties and those who, even if they can, won't.

    If you are one of those who thinks the wires can be reconnected and the screws tightened consider simply this:

    This post alleges that the election in 2016 may be lost in part because "liberals" mock conservatives.

    If you are one of the sincere half dozen, and not one of the fictitous fans created by the blogger himself, do me a favor before betraying your hero and throwing your "Troll" bombs around. Go read the post Bob Somerby wrote when Diane Sawyer questioned Hillary Clinton. Compare his reaction in that post to his praise of moderator John Dickerson in this one.

    http://dailyhowler.blogspot.com/2014/06/anthropology-lessons-oleaginous-oily.html

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. What do you propose Bob do at this point?

      Delete
    2. I don't think there is anything Bob Somerby can or should be expected to do.

      Bob Somerby has become an undisguised clown. He’s now a daily parodic version of his own lost self.

      Lack of money and failure to achieve fame can do that to people. We’ve seen this fact put on display from Judy Garland and Elvis Presley impersonators forward.

      That said, it’s time for someone to take Somerby by the arm and lead him away from his keyboard.

      It is up to Bob's close friends whom he visits on Amtrak, and his close track coaching family. It is up to those lucky college associates, who were made famous by being role models in Erich Segal's novel, to intervene. Yes, Al Gore, Jr. and Tommy Lee Jones. We are talking to you.

      Delete
    3. But there is no chance of that happening. So you are also a bit crazy and quixotic in giving a f.

      Delete
    4. Anon 10:20 & 11:36, (probably the same person), if he only has 6 sincere "fans" and he is so terrible, one wonders what your purpose is in following what you consder "drek" every day. Aren't there other bloggers out there you could follow or other things you could do? Unless you are the anon, who every day indulges in the guilty pleasure of puncturing the views of his intellectual inferiors - that must be quite a joy.

      Delete
    5. Anon. @ 12:03 writes that Anon. @ 11:36 is "crazy and quixotic." I wonder AC/MA if that opinion should be extended to the original author of the work from whom 11:36 borrowed his/her comment?

      Delete
    6. yeah. I wonder that too if it should be extended.

      Delete
  11. So Bob Somerby compares Hillary Clinton's response to a moderator's question to twitter responses to a pseudo-liberal blogger's post.

    This is clearly genius at work and a high point in musing about mainstream media.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. These are typical types of reaction from modern pseudo-liberals. If you've ever read comment threads at sites like Salon, you already know that.

      I agree with Somerby's decision of leave Clinton out of his discussion when he was taking the batshit crazy clown Rachel Maddow to task conerning her "R" bombing of Alabama's governor during the driver's license office jihad.

      But here Clinton was dodging a question from an excellent member of the press who was right to interrupt her less than 10 seconds into her answer. It was one thing to pander a little to base voters out of view of most of the 99%. But to offend them on Face the Nation requires the stern admonition Somerby is dishing out. She is no better than those the Stalinist Salonistas cater to daily.

      BTW, now that Somerby drove Drum back into line, has Krugman apologized for his dive into McCarthyism yet?

      Delete
    2. i respectfully disagree that it was an excellent question. what difference does it really make if we call it radical islam, jihadism, terrorism, etc. what is much more important is how we intend to address it.

      i can think of many more excellent questions to ask like:

      1) do you feel the current administration's terrorism policy is effective, if not why? What would you do different?

      2) if you were elected president, what would be your strategy for combating terrorism here at home and abroad?

      3) what do you feel is the most effective way to deal with ISIS in syria and/or iraq?

      4) How would you balance the humanitarian side of the syrian refugee issue with the security concerns of a large number of americans?

      and the best question of all:

      5) what would you do to try and reach across the aisle and foster constructive dialouge and build consensus on the extremely serious and complex policy issues of our day?

      Delete
    3. sorry i read your post fast and thought you said excellent question, but clearly you didn't. i stand by everything else.

      Delete
    4. No. And I really don't know if Somerby thinks the journalist who hosts Face the Nation is excellent. If he didn't think he was any good Somerby would usually tell us how old the guy is, where he went to high school or college, who his parents were, or somethinbg bad he did during the War on Clinton/Gore. He was silent about the guy so it implied something to me.

      Delete
  12. we really need to stop the name calling on both sides. there are serious problems in the country and in the world that are going to require serious deliberation and discussion to solve. The name calling does nothing at all to help. worse, it is perpetuated by a series of targeted websites, blogs, etc that just feed off each other and perpetuate the name calling and hatred of the other and polarization of the parties. its getting worse and it is getting scary.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. @ 4:37 that was uncalled for. You should just go away.

      Delete
  13. I don't consider that the way politicians exploit racism and xenophobia is "good faith". Whatever the "sincere" beliefs of the politicians themselves (does anyone doubt that Hitler was a sincere antisemite?), they are cynically appealing to people's worst instincts to get themselves elected. Somerby may be correct that liberals themselves show tribalism in the way they react, but how exactly are the tribalism and xenophobia to be overcome? Are the pronouncements of the Republican politicians supposed to be taken at face value as representing realistic objective fears of terrorism?

    I have yet to see any really constructive suggestions from Somerby on how to combat racism and xenophobia, other than to be more rational and avoid tribalism. Individuals may pride themselves on objectivity, but that is not solving the major political problem.

    ReplyDelete
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