With lessons from the McCloskeys: We'd planned to watch the Republican convention this week, but we quickly found it unwatchable.
For that reason, on each of the last two days, we've skimmed the previous evening's events through the magic of On Demand, getting a taste of the offerings.
At the New York Times, a large group of opinion writers have been picking the best and worst moments from each night. Below, we'll post one pundit's "best moment" from last night.
First, though, a widely-cited "worst" from Monday evening:
On Monday, Kimberly Guilfoyle’s "crazed, screaming rant" seemed to be the overall choice for the evening's worst moment. Guilfoyle has been like that forever on Fox, except a bit worse in certain ways, though with the volume turned down.
After Guilfoyle, four or five pundits picked the presentation by the McCloskeys as the evening's worst moment. Wajahat Ali offered this:
My cup runneth over. The terrifying and surreal segment featuring the McCloskey couple from St. Louis was a textbook example of white supremacy. The warning? People of color are going to invade the suburbs. They pointed their guns at peaceful Black Lives Matter demonstrators and somehow think they are the victims?Our advice: Be careful what you regard as worst, unless you don't care who wins.
In our view, press coverage of the McCloskeys has been highly instructive. We've seen exactly zero attempt to report what actually happened on the day when they bore arms outside their extremely expensive St. Louis home.
Did protesters really break through a locked gate? Were the McCloskeys actually threatened? We've seen no attempt to establish even the most basic facts. Instead, the event has been a perfect example of tribal journalism, with cable stars from the two warring tribes describing the McCloskeys' experience is diametrically opposite ways.
For ourselves, we'd have to say this:
The story the McCloskeys tell is neatly reinforced, as propaganda if in no other way, by certain ongoing events from Kenosha and beyond. We don't have the slightest idea what actually happened on the day in question. But the reason why blue team members find their story impossible to swallow is because we're being spared the videotape of people being harassed as they try to eat lunch and showered with threats and verbal abuse as they try to sleep at night in their homes.
Red team members are seeing the videotape of such events on the Fox News Channel. That videotape fits perfectly with the story the McClosekys tell. We liberals don't know this because we're being sheltered from the storm by the money-grubber "cable news" stars on our own tribe's corporate "news channels."
Were the McCloskeys insulted and threatened that day? We have no idea.
Is it possible that they were? If you think the answer is no, you're being sheltered by your favorite TV stars.
That said, what was last night's best moment? Because the proceedings strike us as impossible to watch, we have no idea.
In principle, we liked what Matt LaBash said. This was his choice for best moment from last evening's program:
Whenever in Sin City, I’m typically too liquored-up, or down at blackjack, to visit the International Church of Las Vegas. But after hearing the opening prayer by its pastor, Norma Urrabazo, I might change my itinerary. She prayed for our police officers and those they’ve been in conflict with. She extolled unity, asking for reconciliation with God and each other. She prayed for all Americans, not just Republican ones. These are notes not often sounded nowadays. Here’s hoping Trump wasn’t too busy tweeting insults at “Sleepy Joe” or “MSDNC” to listen.According to LaBash, Urrabazo prayed for our police, and she prayed for our protesters. As LaBash notes, such impulses are somewhat rare at this point in time.
Judging by traditional norms, crazy behavior is being displayed by people from various warring tribes. That always happens at time of war, which tends to be bad for living things but good for cable news profits.
"At the New York Times, a large group of opinion writers have been picking the best and worst moments..."
ReplyDelete"Best" moments? Are you being sarcastic, dear Bob? I'm reading that your goebbelsian media clown are spending all their energy on personal attacks, bashing every speaker there, including the kid, what's his name.
"Were the McCloskeys insulted and threatened that day? We have no idea."
Well, you should certainly have some idea, dear Bob.
Is it really plausible that a couple of lawyers would make a show like that without any provocation at all? Rioters definitely were there, so -- c'mon dear Bob -- how could they not feel threatened?
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"But the reason why blue team members find their story impossible to swallow is because we're being spared the videotape of people being harassed as they try to eat lunch and showered with threats and verbal abuse as they try to sleep at night in their homes."
ReplyDeleteSomerby doesn't get it but this is an example of "entitlement". People who live in large cities frequently have to put up with inconvenience and discomfort related to living shoulder-to-shoulder with a wide variety of other people.
Sometimes it is noisy. Sometimes a mentally ill person will say something odd to you, people you don't know ask you for money or sleep on your front doorstep, sometimes there is a strike and your garbage doesn't get picked up, and if you cross a picket line, you will surely hear rude things said to you. I've been sworn at by mentally ill people, for doing nothing worse than existing. I've had to sit on public transit next to men "reading" porn. None of us has the right to go through life without being bothered by other people in some unpleasant way.
I live in a small town. I hear the crowd from the soccer field and I hear public concerts during the summer, whether I want to or not. I encounter bumper-to-bumper traffic when the high school lets out and when parents drop off their kids at the nearby elementary school (pre-covid). We hear water-dropping helicopters refilling their tanks at the pond across the street whenever there is a wildfire burning. And my neighbors make a lot of noise on Saturday nights, with loud music not of my generation. The nerve of them all!
Somerby feels sorry for the McCloskeys because they had to witness free speech in action. I want to know where it is written that they should always be able to eat lunch in peace or never have to witness democracy in our streets? They could have gone back indoors, put on headphones and listened to music and waited out the demonstration. If there were damage due to breaking their fence, I'm sure they are insured with such an expensive home and all. Or they can build a bigger fence, as Trump has done.
I have absolutely no sympathy for someone who would use a protest as an excuse to point a gun at human beings. We all need to get better at recognizing white entitlement when it comes around and eliminating it, instead of sympathizing the way Somerby is doing.
If you live near Disneyland, you hear those damned fireworks going off every night, just as you are dropping off to sleep (pre-covid of course). If you have the right attitude you imagine the happy crowds exhausted by their fun day in the park. If you are a conservative, apparently you complain to the Anaheim City Council about those kids having too damned much fun. Hint: Don't take your gun to the city council meeting. It isn't the same as threatening hippies in the street.
Chicago’s Mayor Lightfoot witnessed free speech in her neighborhood and got the local constabulary to kick the protesters out.
DeleteMayor Lightfoot said, “I have the right to make sure that my home is secure.”
The McCloskeys don’t?
Your neighborhood isn't "your home". Streets are public property, available to all to use. Your home starts at your property line, but noise, animals, small children, baseballs and similar toys, trash, lots of things cross your property line in inconvenient ways. You grow up and get used to it. You tolerate other people and you try to get along. The Mayor who uses the police as a personal service is abusing his or her office.
DeleteA mob of people breaking down a gate to come onto private community property is not the same as your neighbor’s dog doing some landscaping on your yard.
DeleteQuit being a putz.
Trying to stop a protest is like standing on the shore, trying to stop the waves.
DeleteThey weren’t trying to stop a protest. They were being homeowners warning potentially violent protesters not to put a foot on their property.
DeleteI’m taking your argument as being for automatic weapons. If you haven't got the fire power, don’t be so thoughtless as to piss-off the peaceful protesters.
DeleteWe know that insurance will cover great grandmother’s china and surely you understand that these people are no threat at all.
If they are a threat? Well, you still shouldn’t care about your castle over the lives of any protestor who would destroy it.
Yes, it was cruel and dangerous for this couple to make a stand rather than loading up the yorkies and heading to the beach.
After all, that ability is far more than they deserve.
No, you take the yorkies and head for the beach, obviously.
DeleteI live where there are 6.0+ earthquakes and yearly wildfires. People learn not to hang around packing grandma's china but LEAVE immediately because your life depends on it. If there is an earthquake you don't get to choose what breaks and what doesn't. You pick up the pieces and try not to be attached to THINGS instead of PEOPLE.
Those people were the kind who would run into the flames to save grandma's china -- why? You can buy that kind of china in any antique store, and probably find it at Goodwill too. This is idiotic. You don't poke a hornet's nest. You leave it alone. You don't tell the hornet's this is my tree and I don't want you here -- you let someone trained handle it and you leave the immediate vicinity (or stand still and don't attract attention). The McClosky's are the kind of people who win Darwin awards.
Your solution -- get bigger guns -- is why our country is in so much trouble. The poor have been rioting since Roman times. Mobs are a phenomenon of nature. Self-preservation dictates that you get out of their way. And if you care more about grandma's china than people's lives, fuck you and I don't want to know you. You aren't the kind of person I want living next door to me when the next big earthquake happens, and you won't evacuate for the next wildfire and some fire fighter will have to risk his life pulling you out of your house, clutching some item that wouldn't sell on Ebay.
I think the fact that you denote value as to what sells on eBay is very suggestive of your outlook being far and away more monetary than mine.
DeleteI don’t consider people throwing professional fireworks as being a force of nature such as earthquakes. Neither would I consider any post earthquake looter who showed up at your empty home to be that type of force either.
Not even if you had sat out milk and cookies.
Calling those fireworks "professional" is another bit of propaganda, just as calling the fires that are lit "arson". There were 137 in Los Angeles during the protests there, and for some reason the fire dept had no trouble at all putting them out -- largely trash cans and dumpsters plus an occasional car or fires set without accelerants in buildings, quickly extinguished.
DeleteDuring a major earthquake, people are busy dealing with their own circumstances, not looting. Neighbors help each other and know who belongs and who doesn't. There are no first responders available so they give each other first aid and help them locate their pets and so on. No one is busy guarding their stuff during a natural disaster. You find the people you care about and you go stay with relatives until you can sort out whether your home is too damaged to inhabit. And that is true for both rich and poor.
It is important to remember that just because you feel scared doesn't mean you are actually in danger.
DeleteCecelia want dark hoomans go away.
DeleteThere is video of the incident, the protestors were peaceful, did not damage the gate, and generally speaking they were not legally trespassing as that usually requires highly dangerous activity, you can not trespass someone for just walking on your lawn.
Highly dangerous activity? No, that has nothing to do with criminal trespass. Missouri has a typical criminal trespass statute. You commit criminal trespass in that state if you knowingly and without authorization enter someone else's property or refuse to leave when you've been told to go. If the property is fenced to keep out intruders, you're presumed to know you don't belong. Direct warning or prominent signage serves as a directive to leave.
DeleteExcept for the fact that trespass is not a transitive verb, you're right that someone who just now just walked on your lawn is not guilty of trespass. First you'll need a crotchety old man to yell at them to keep off the grass.
corby, good point. that goes for black males living in terror because of what happened to Floyd and in Kenosha, etc.
DeleteAC/ MA,
DeleteIs that a typo? I think you meant, that goes for Conservatives living in terror because of the protests regarding Floyd and in Kenosha, etc.
You get to shoot people for insulting you? Why didn't anyone tell me?
ReplyDeleteWhere do you live, deadrat?
DeleteI live in the suburban midwest. Why do you want to know?
DeleteThe Anonymouse might be considering a relocation and wants to know what area he should avoid.
DeleteCould you do everyone a favor and name the state?
Everyone? And what favor is this? Forgive my being suspicious, but what difference does it make what state I'm a resident of?
DeleteUninteresting? Now that would have hurt my feelings if I had any.
DeleteI don't mind answering the question if there's a reason that's relevant to what passes for conversation around here.
@5:29 was joking
DeleteOK.
DeleteWas that the setup or the punchline?
"She prayed for all Americans, not just Republican ones. These are notes not often sounded nowadays."
ReplyDeleteShe prayed for all Americans, not just Republican ones. These are notes not often sounded [by Republicans] nowadays. FTFY
It is routine for clergy to pray for everyone, even your opponents or enemies, misguided and lost souls, at liberal events.
Several liberal friends posted that the crowd in front of the McCloskeys' house were unarmed. How in the world could anyone know whether someone in the crowd had a gun, a knife, a brick, or a rock. Even a match or cigarette lighter could have been used to set fire to their house.
ReplyDeleteThey looked around and didn't see anyone using any of that stuff.
DeleteThe protesters had broken down a gate to enter the neighborhood. The McCloskey’s had spent days watching burnings and looting.
DeleteIt’s the usual people, issuing the usual imperative, that you are to shut your mouth and take the threats and attacks. How dare you to presume otherwise! You are not only to act defenseless, you are to politely do this:
https://youtu.be/bIZoVO8ZyyQ
If it were me, I would go stay elsewhere with friends if it bothered me that much. They aren't going to be able to stop a protest by waving a gun around. It is stupid to think they can do anything about it. So it is better to leave until it is over.
DeleteGated communities offer the illusion of security. They are emblems of wealth and privilege because they implicitly tell others they do not belong there. In your face snobbery provokes people who are upset about inequities in society. They should know better but that sense of entitlement gets in the way.
Right. It’s unreasonable and hateful to think that the people breaking down a gate to get into your private community might do what was done to the stores down town.
DeleteYou mustn’t stand your ground against that.
However, it’s perfectly reasonable for a mass of people to be offended over the notion that they can’t barge into a neighborhood without a homeowner making their boundaries crystal clear.
No one has been breaking into private homes and you know it.
DeleteThey burnt newly built low-income apartment buildings and stores with apartments over them.
DeleteThese are cities, not the burbs. They didn’t care.
They burnt their own neighborhoods, not the gated communities. Don't pretend you care about low-income housing.
DeleteI know it makes sense in your world to chide me for caring about personal property and to then accuse me of being uncaring of certain people’s property.
DeleteYou might consider that “they” (the people who burnt their own neighborhoods) were not a community quorum.
I am not in favor of riots, just as I am not in favor of earthquakes or hurricanes or any other disaster. I think the best way to prevent riots is to deal with social problems, something Republicans don't want to do effectively.
DeleteOur Cecelia's concerns in order start 1) the destroyed property of rich people, 2) the threatened property of rich people, 3) the possibly threatened property of rich people, 4) the destroyed property of poor people if it helps make a snarky point. The caged children of illegal immigrants don't make the list, but they're good for a joke, right Cece?
DeleteThe McCloskeys' best choice was just to stay behind locked doors. No one would have paid the slightest attention to them or their property. If only they'd lived in Florida. They could have opened fire with impunity.
They were being homeowners warning potentially violent protesters not to put a foot on their property.
Delete"Potentially violent protesters" in this case equals non-violent non-trespassers. For the latter, at least with regard to the McCloskeys' home and curtilage. The law doesn't allow you to threaten non-violent people who walk on your grass. Even if they're black.
Actually, Missouri law does allow even white people to use deadly force in order to protect themselves if they reasonably feel threatened. The McCloskey’s say that they were threatened after telling the protesters to turn back as they were coming thru the gate. They also say that they are the reason the protesters stayed on the sidewalk.
Delete
Delete“The caged children of illegal immigrants don't make the list, but they're good for a joke, right Cece?“
Absolutely. Something about their eating cake,
"Eating their cage"
DeleteHa ha ha ha ha.
Meh.
“Cake”
DeleteYour comprehension is slipping.
The protestors did not break the gate, in the video you can clearly see the protestors going through an intact gate.
DeleteWhy are Republicans always trying to con everyone?
Actually, Missouri law does allow even white people to use deadly force in order to protect themselves if they reasonably feel threatened.
DeleteI'm going to be charitable here and assume that you're not just pulling this out of your ass, but that you are confused about two doctrines operative in Missouri Law. The first is the Castle Doctrine (named after the adage, "A man's [sic in homage to TDH] home is his castle.") It relieves one from the duty to retreat from someone who's gained access without your permission to your residence or vehicle. The second is the doctrine of self-defense, which allows you to use force, including deadly force, if you're attacked and in reasonable fear for your life or of serious injury.
The Castle Doctrine doesn't apply to the McCloskeys. No protestor was even on their property, let alone inside their house. Except in Florida, the law doesn't give a shit about the opinion of gun nuts, feral Trumpers, or other assorted assholes about how threatened they feel when they see black people around. The law requires the judgment of a threat be determined by the mythical reasonable person, objectively examining the situation post hoc in the cold light of day. Of course this sucks if you're an enraged bigot or even if you're just scared in a confusing situation. Too bad on both counts. Maybe you'll get a jury of gun nuts, feral Trumpers, and assorted assholes, in which case the law won't matter.
I don't believe the McCloskeys for a minute that they were threatened, but even if they were, they probably had a duty to disengage. I doubt that they were threatened by everyone in the crowd, but they brandished their weapons at everyone in range. Their speculation that the actions for which they were indicted kept the protestors on the sidewalk is irrelevant.
It's an interesting question if the intersection of the two doctrines is non-empty in Missouri, i.e., if you use deadly force in your home, whether it must be reasonable. The state says yes, and it's won at trial and on appeal. From what I've read, there's some ambiguity that needs to be and hasn't been resolved by either the legislature or the state supreme court.
In Florida, you have no duty to retreat anywhere, and your subjective judgment that there's a threat is sufficient. You'll be relieved to know that although the law is race-neutral, it's benefits in practice don't accrue to black defendants.
Sorry, "cake." My comprehension is fine; my typing, not so much.
Delete“ The Castle Doctrine doesn't apply to the McCloskeys. No protestor was even on their property, let alone inside their house. Except in Florida, the law doesn't give a shit about the opinion of gun nuts, feral Trumpers, or other assorted assholes about how threatened they feel when they see black people around.“
DeleteLooks like they had all that and a bag of racist potatoes chips.
https://www.ksdk.com/mobile/article/news/crime/i-suggest-you-quickly-re-assess-this-evidence-st-louis-prosecutor-to-detective-on-mccloskey-case/63-8abf5d89-1aeb-46b7-bad2-cc1a482e945e
My understanding is in Florida to use deadly force a jury would have to find that one "reasonably believes that using or threatening to use such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony."
Deleteper 776.012
It is easy for anyone to find that Zimmerman did not reasonably believe..., considering how minor his injuries were and the testimony of witnesses. As it happened, Zimmerman's particular jury found him innocent, and it seems perfectly reasonable that people would be outraged by that enough to start a historic and effective movement.
Trespass law seems to be misunderstood by Republicans as well.
The protestors did not damage the gate.
My understanding is in Florida to use deadly force a jury would have to find that....
DeleteMy understanding is that even in Florida, juries don't use deadly force. Or at least not very often.
Sorry, but your dangling construction made me chuckle.
The law does use "reasonably believe," but that examination is made from the point of view of the killer-defendant, and the state must overcome such a defendant's claim beyond a reasonable doubt. This is an almost impossible burden to overcome if the defendant has killed the only other witness, as in the Zimmerman case. Thus it may be easy for you to find that Zimmerman wasn't in fear for his life, but the jury followed the law.
Zimmerman's injuries would have been relevant in states that require defensive force be proportional to the threat. (As I recall, Ohio is such a state.) But that's not the case in Florida.
Zimmerman's jury didn't find him innocent. No juries in the US do that. They just found him not guilty, meaning that the state couldn't prove its case, which is completely unsurprising in the case of Florida defendants who aren't black.
[I]t seems perfectly reasonable that people would be outraged by that enough to start a historic and effective movement.
The outrage is indeed reasonable. But the blame lies with a craven legislature and ALEC. Another, metaphorical jury is still out on whether the movement will be effective.
Trespass law seems to be misunderstood by Republicans as well.
Add it to the list.
Cecelia, nothing in the article at your link contradicts anything I wrote. But it's late, so maybe you can explain it for me.
DeleteThe McClosky's, like the kid in Kenosha with his assault rifle, feel they need their guns to maintain order.
DeleteSocial order (i.e. racial hierarchies).
The jury would have also been following the law if they found Zimmerman guilty.
DeleteThere was an interview this morning on NPR with a Scottsdale AZ Trump voter who said she thinks he is funny and he pisses people off, and that's why she (an ostensible Democrat) voted for him in 2016.
ReplyDeleteI think we need to improve Republican senses of humor. Also, we should educate them about the important things the government is supposed to do, so they won't put the buffoon back in charge and wind up pissing everyone's future away.
"Were the McCloskeys insulted and threatened that day? We have no idea.
ReplyDeleteIs it possible that they were?"
now watch for this angry old white male's excruciating defense of Kyle Rittenhouse ("is it possible the 17 year old snot was acting in self-defense") as excruciating as his defense of Zimmerman.
Go get measured for your robe and hood. why are you going on and on and on about "we librulz"?
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