Experts arrive at the scene of the crime!

SATURDAY, SEPTEMBER 5, 2020

Which proles can we lock up now?:
Thursday evening, on CNN, we heard from someone who was even described as an expert.

The observer in question was Charles Ramsey, former police chief in Washington, D.C. and in Philadelphia. He was asked to state his view about the death of Daniel Prude.

In an act of mercy, John Berman was sitting in for Anderson Cooper. As we sat and watched, the first exchange went like this:
BERMAN (9/3/20): Joining us now is Charles Ramsey, CNN law enforcement analyst and former top cop in Washington and Philadelphia. Chief Ramsey, looking at it with your expert eyes. What's your reaction to that video of Daniel Prude's arrest?

RAMSEY: Well, I mean, obviously, it is disturbing to watch, but if I may just kind of walk you through it very carefully.

Obviously, he's in mental distress. I mean, it's winter time, you can see the snow falling and he's naked. That tells you right there that he wasn't in his normal state of mind.

He was compliant initially. He put his hands behind his back as requested, he's sitting on the ground, and then you do see him begin to spit.

Now they use what's called a spit hood, some call it spit mask, and put over his head. Some departments use that; some don't. It's a little on the controversial side, primarily because of the optics of it, as you can clearly see from the video. But you can breathe through it, it's mesh, basically. But it does protect an officer against being bitten or being spat upon.

Once they put that hood on, though, he becomes more agitated, and that's when he tries to get up. They start to apply pressure to keep him on the ground.

Now the autopsy showed, of course, asphyxia. But it also shows he had a high level of PCP in his bloodstream. I don't know if you've ever seen a person or had to deal with a person high on PCP. They are very difficult to control, they can be incredibly strong. It is, it is not a pretty sight to see somebody being taken into custody so on PCP.

I don't know if that had anything to do with it or not. I'm not trying to justify this, that'll all come out as part of the investigation. But I do know that having drugs in his system, I don't know what his mental state is normally. But all those things combined, that was a very difficult situation.
It was "a very difficult situation" for the police officers on the scene, Chief Ramsey said. At present, of course, our national discourse rarely runs on such fuel.

At present, our national discourse, such as it is, runs on instant blame, preferably of the lowest players on the social-class totem pole.

We don't ask why the Rochester Medical Center released Prude without successful treatment. At newspapers like the New York Times, we wait for the police officers to show up in the middle of the night, at which point we interject talk about the way they conducted a "lynching."

Ramsey had already talked too long and with too little certainty, given the norms of our discourse. Incredibly, Berman, a batter than average cable player, invited him to say more:
BERMAN (continuing directly): I get it. What you're laying out is that this was a complicated situation with different factors here. But looking at the video, did you see anything that was done that you think could have or should have been done differently?

RAMSEY: Well, it's hard to tell, but the pressure on the back for a sustained period of time could cause positional asphyxia. According to what I read, he was still spitting while he had the hood on, plus he may have vomited. That of course could get in the airway and cause problems as well. Obviously if they had released some pressure, roll him over earlier, maybe things would have been different.

Who knows whether or not that would have been the case? But it's not like a George Floyd situation, where it's obvious that that is totally inappropriate. This is a little different situation here. So it'll be interesting as the evidence starts to come out during the course of the investigation, exactly what's found.

BERMAN: Charles Ramsey, as always, we do appreciate your time. Thank you very much.
According to Ramsey, the officers were facing "a very difficult situation." This isn't "like a George Floyd situation, where it's obvious that that is totally inappropriate."

Inexcusably, Ramsey even suggested that we should wait for additional evidence as the (real or ersatz) investigation(s) drag on. Cable news is much less entertaining and fun when people make statements like that.

Did the officers in question do something wrong on that cold March night? More to the point, did they do something illegal?

Seven officers have now been suspended based on what happened that night. Given the way our discourse works, various entities will be actively looking for a way to lock them all up.

Perhaps they should lock Chief Ramsey up too, on a charge of avoiding stampede!

Did the officers do something wrong that night? We're forced to admit that, much like Ramsey, we can't quite see it from the videotape.

This morning, though, the Washington Post has called in the nation's actual "experts" to get us all straightened out. Before we review what the experts have said, let's recall the chronology which left it to those seven officers to handle this matter that night.

The story starts with Daniel Prude boarding a train in Chicago. Amtrak couldn't deal with his PCP-laced behavior, so they kicked him off the train in Buffalo.

In Buffalo, he ended up in a shelter. From there, he called his brother in Rochester, who drove the 70 miles to Buffalo and picked Daniel Prude up.

When the brother couldn't deal with Prude's PCP-laced behavior—there's no reason why he should have been able—he called the Rochester police for the first time. The police had Daniel Prude taken to the University of Rochester Medical Center.

At that point, the story becomes a bit strange. This morning, the Washington Post reported what happened next:
KINDY AND CRAIG (9/5/20): On the evening of March 22, before his early-morning arrest, authorities had responded to a separate police call involving Prude. He was taken to the University of Rochester Medical Center, the Democrat & Chronicle newspaper reported. But the hospital released him.
Stating the obvious, the hospital released Daniel Prude without providing successful treatment. When his brother still couldn't control his behavior, Daniel Prude fled into the night at roughly 3 A.M.

The brother called police again. It was left to a bunch of working-class cops to deal with this manic behavior.

Let's offer an unbalanced review of the chronology here:

Amtrak kicked him off their train. The shelter let him depart.

The hospital kicked him out of the hospital. In the end, seven policemen may yet get locked up because the weight of the case finally descended on them.

According to this morning's Post, "The University of Rochester Medical Center is now conducting an internal review of Prude’s case." We expect to see little follow-up, but of one thing, you can be fairly certain. No one will be looking for ways to lock those people up, or to defund them.

At present, we see no questions being asked about what happened at the medical center—about the judgment or the behavior of the medical staff. You see, those people come from the high-end professional class. Like college presidents and certain police chiefs, they're largely immune from rebuke.

Amtrak couldn't deal with Prude, so they cut him loose. For whatever reason, the medical center sent him back to his brother.

Eventually, police were called for the second time; entities are now begging to lock seven cops up. This morning, the Post brought the note of unintentional comedy in, placing its lengthy news report under this hard-copy headline:
Union backs Rochester police as experts criticize tactics
The Washington Post had spoken with the experts (plural)! Oddly, this comes close to being the totality of what the "experts" said:
KINDY AND CRAIG: Mental health experts, who help train police officers in ways to de-escalate such encounters, said the officers should have maintained their distance from Prude while they calmly talked to him, asking how they could be of assistance. Handcuffs and the hood served to escalate the tension and fear, they said, causing Prude to tell the officers, “You’re trying to kill me.”

[NAME WITHHELD], a vice president at Mental Health America, said instead of shouting orders, officers should ask, “How can I help you?” They should also not order a person having a mental health crisis to “calm down,” as officers repeatedly did with Prude, whose autopsy said he had the drug PCP in his system.

As for the handcuffs, [WITHHELD] said, “They are already afraid. It also criminalizes people with a mental health condition.”
It could be that WITHHELD's expert advice is correct! On the other hand, this is the way the New York Times has reported the background events:
NIR ET AL (9/4/20): The man, Daniel Prude, who was having a psychotic episode, was handcuffed by officers after he ran into the street naked in the middle of the cold night and told at least one passer-by that he had the coronavirus. Mr. Prude began spitting, and the officers responded by pulling a mesh hood over his head, according to police body camera footage.
As you may have heard, people can die from the virus in question. Apparently, though, the officers, being mere proles, maybe shouldn't have cared about that.

"The officers seemed preoccupied with concern that they might catch something from Mr. Prude," the Times report, at one point, may possibly seem to sniff. NAME WITHHELD, the Post's top expert, said they should have played Mr. Rogers as Prude continued to spit, perhaps at risk to their lives. They shouldn't have told him to calm down. They certainly shouldn't have used handcuffs!

In fairness, the Post's report is full of interesting information. Much of it comers from people urging a nuanced look at this fatal event, not from the "mental health experts."

Much of it comes from Mark Mazzeo, head of the Rochester police union. Mazzeo sounds a great deal more sane than many such union heads sometimes do. Here's part of what he said:
KINDY AND CRAIG: Severe budget cuts for psychiatric services—by as much as 30 percent in some states in recent years—have created a vacuum that local police are increasingly asked to fill.

Mazzeo referenced how New York has shut down many of its mental health institutions
, which he said has strained police officers.

“They put people out on the street, and who is one of the only agencies to deal with them—it’s the police
,” he said. “We definitely need changes.”
Governors and legislators eliminate psychiatric services. Medical personnel put psychotic people out on the street, asking young cops to mop up.

In the case of Daniel Prude, it was the Rochester Medical Center which put him back on the street. That said, no one will try to lock their personnel up, nor are we saying they should.

Whoever wrote the Post's headline today went straight to the work of the "experts." The expert quoted in the report seemed to be phoning home from a slightly make-believe realm.

That said, the familiar story being told here involves a familiar format. We go in search of magical solutions to extremely difficult situation. When no magic solution appears, we try to lock up the lowest players on the totem pole.

We lock up the college freshman, not the Stanford president and the Stanford provost who kept permitting the drunken brawls which were always destined to lead to disaster. (Note: to this day, no one has the slightest idea what actually happened that night.)

We lock up the two rookie cops, not the politically skilled police chief who left the apparently crazy Derek Chauvin out on the street—as the rookie cops' training officer, no less.

It Atlanta, we lock up the second cop, the one who didn't fire his gun. No one tried to lock up the corrupt DA who rendered that judgment as he ran a badly failed campaign for re-election. (For update, see below.)

Yesterday, we read some of the comments to that Times report. We were struck by how many angry pseudo-liberals seem to reason exactly like Donald J. Trump.

He promised that the virus would "magically" disappear. Over here in our own unimpressive tribe, many commenters seemed to want a magic solution to the problem which arose when Daniel Prude, on PCP, had another psychotic breakdown that night.

Amtrak kicked him off the train. The hospital put him back on the street. When a bunch of cops didn't have magic solution to this, we start trying to lock them up. This is the way we "rational animals" have always tended to reason.

When he was interviewed by Berman, Chief Ramsey spoke with a great deal of nuance. Berman even called him an "expert." Very few others will.

We like our experts from La-La Land. We like our proles locked up. We like our tribal narratives neat. This is the way we've always been wired, major top experts now say.

Atlanta DA goes down: Paul Howard was behind in the polls. Also, he was faced with several corruption charges.

And so, he brought charges against both cops. That included the second cop, the one who didn't even fire his gun.

Last month, Howard lost his run-off by 45 points. On cable, no one is yelling to lock him up, but that second cop remains charged.

This is the way the game is played over here in our self-impressed tribe!

68 comments:

  1. Tsk. The state controlled by the liberal cult cuts as much as 30% of psychiatric services. Who woulda thunk it, dear Bob?

    "But it's not like a George Floyd situation, where it's obvious that that is totally inappropriate."

    Now, this one I don't understand. It's exactly the same situation: a perp overdosing on illegal drugs is resisting arrest. How is it "obvious that that is totally inappropriate"?

    My guess is: Mr Ramsey is scared of being 'cancelled' from the CNN. What do you think, dear Bob?

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  2. Don't be so "economically anxious", Mao.

    BTW, can you believe anyone would think Trump isn't an absolute 100% clown show?
    The idiot is on the hook for more than 180,000 deaths, because he tried to gaslight a virus, like it was common Chuck Todd. Let's face it. The guy is a fucking moron, and it's no wonder he couldn't make money on a casino.

    ReplyDelete
  3. "It's a little on the controversial side, primarily because of the optics of it." Not, of course, because it can cause asphyxiation.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Ironic last name for a methed-up guy walking around naked.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yes, let's all laugh at the dead man's name.

      Delete
    2. Somerby pushes the notion that the cops are "working class" in a "difficult situation", this is a really dumb take.

      Cops are over-militarized, overly aggressive authoritarians living out their cosplay fantasies. They do not protect, they do not serve, they do not prevent or solve crime. They create difficult situations.

      Every other institution knew what to do, release the guy, let him go. The cops created the difficult situation, made it difficult, and, as they always do when faced with difficulty, "solved" it with violence.

      Delete
    3. Instigate and incite enough until someone is triggered to respond, and then turn around and mock them and act like they are the one with the problem.

      This is the technique shared by abusers, cops, and Republicans, as they all share similar disorders - largely as a consequence of child abuse.

      Delete
    4. Are you speaking to me as having incited you? To the blogger here? Or to just any and all who don’t completely agree with you?

      Delete
    5. Does the shoe fit? Since you are wondering, the answer is probably yes.

      Delete
  5. So, Somerby makes up a story about those ratty doctors who released him (there are laws governing whether you can hold someone), implying that he was high on PCP at that time too. And Somerby believes Ramsey's account, which excludes details and is tailored to make the police look as good as possible. Is that because the police are working class (although many have degrees and some have law degrees)?

    If Somerby wants to leave this discussion until more facts are known, he shouldn't keep applying that thumb to the scales himself.

    Cecelia, meth isn't PCP. PCP is a hallucinogen. I strongly suspect that if he were given a tox screen and PCP were found in his system, the hospital would have given him a sedative or anti-psychotic medication. Somerby implies that didn't happen.

    The Somerby suggests that the cop was charged for political reasons. That is a slander against the DA, made with no supporting evidence except a bunch of suppositions.

    Somerby needs to spend his weekend doing something else. Today's essay is offensive in its attempt to whitewash the police and dismiss complaints about their killing of yet another person in custody.

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  6. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete

  7. “ Cecelia, meth isn't PCP. PCP is a hallucinogen. I strongly suspect that if he were given a tox screen and PCP were found in his system, the hospital would have given him a sedative or anti-psychotic medication.”

    Your strong assumptions aside, according to Daniel Prude’s brother, the hospital did not medicate him.

    Somerby did state that a conversation on how public resources are spent would be in order.

    That’s a broader approach than what you imply.






    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "a conversation on how public resources are spent would be in order. "

      That is nearly what the "defund police" movement is, but not quite - they prefer a little less conversation and a little more action. There have been such conversations and lovely books written even, but no action occurred until there were protests.


      Interesting.

      Delete
    2. It’s not a discussion if you’re burning down someone’s business or climbing on their car or the roof of their home.

      They’ll definitely get attention that way, but it can certainly backfire on ALL of us at once when they don’t know when to stop. These people rarely do.

      Delete
    3. Further discussion is not needed, the experts have weighed in, it has been thoroughly discussed.

      Protests work.

      The faux outrage over property damage is ridiculous when right wing extremists are by far the top purveyors of violence, spurred on by the president no less. Clinton made blowjobs ok, Trump makes racism and violence ok. And if you are beat up or killed by right wing extremists, you are a "loser" and a "sucker". Republicans are calling for the Kenosha killer to be the next president!

      Interesting group of people, Republicans. Never a dull day, as they love chaos almost as much as whining about being a victim.

      Please, proceed with the whining.

      Delete
    4. You dismiss as “whining” any concern over the destruction playing out each night in several cities, and then come up with something about some boneheaded Republicans, somewhere...quipping “Rittenhouse for President”?

      Congratulations. You’re a genuine Anonymouse.


      Delete
    5. Don't stop
      Don't stop

      One more post

      Oh yeah oh yeah unnngghhhhh

      Delete
    6. Anonymouse 8:39pm, you have an acolyte.

      Delete
    7. Take away the victimization, and all Right-wingers have left are lies and bigotry.

      Delete
    8. Right-wingers don't call liberals, "snowflakes" for nothing. They call them "snowflakes", because every Right-wing accusation is a confession.

      Delete
    9. Here is what "anonymouse" actually is:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymouse_(collective)

      Delete
    10. There are claims that protesters were throwing "fire bombs" (also described as Molotov cocktails) at police last night in Portland. That claim is sourced to the police and I could not find any independent verification or any protest-related source to verify that claim. When all of the information about a protest comes from the police, the police are infiltrated by the alt-right and support Trump, how can you expect the information repeated by nearly every press source to be accurate?

      Somerby is claiming that we should accept the police statements about these various events, even though he devotes his life to calling the press names and pointing our their trivial mistakes. Now, when the press coincides with his biases, he tells us to look to the press for facts, even though the press is the apparent mouthpiece of the police and reactionary forces, the establishment resisting change.

      There may or may not be fire bombs in Portland, but the press and police are not telling the truth, as has been demonstrated repeatedly in incident after incident.

      Somerby should know better than to say what he does here on Saturday. He might as well be a Trump-voting asshole, sitting in his lawn chair with his shotgun across his knees, with a confederate flag stretched across his living room wall, given his directive that we should all be listening to Fox and Limbaugh because that's where the facts are.

      Delete
    11. “ Here is what "anonymouse" actually is:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymouse_(collective)”

      So cute! You guys could hang out together in that little barber shop.

      Delete
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  11. The mayor of Rochester, NY said this about Prude:

    he "was failed by the police department, our mental health care system, our society, and he was failed by me."

    She is a Democrat. “The mayor, whose job is technically slated as part-time, pays about $37,000 right now.”

    She sounds like a “prole” to me.

    The average salary for a cop in Rochester is $57,818.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Mayor can't be a prole, dear mh.

      Okay, maybe in rural Wyoming somewhere, but not the mayor of Rochester, NY. No way Jose.

      Most likely she is not even an outer party member; she is an inner party member. Yeah, and she's doing good clowning.

      Delete
    2. The average yearly salary for plumbers is 60k.

      How does a plumber’s social status stand up to even a part-time mayor?

      Is she still in office?

      Delete
    3. The mayor was elected to the office by the citizens of Rochester. She can be voted out by those same citizens. In fact, she is being accused by some, along with the police department, of covering up Prude’s death, which occurred months ago. She is a native of Rochester, as were her parents. They were “proles.” The idea that she is some kind of untouchable upper-class “elite” is ridiculous.

      Delete
    4. "The mayor was elected to the office by the citizens of Rochester."

      Right. Dear children, any one of you can become president.

      Delete
    5. I thought her remark meant that she may have resigned.

      I’m not sure where you get that she was being called an “untouchable” in a blog that gave governors and legislators responsibility, as well as Amtrak which set him out on the street, and an ED full of professionals who didn’t do any thing but hold him for awhile and then send him back to his brother’s house via taxi.

      Delete
    6. Cecelia, you cannot hold someone for psychiatric reasons unless they are a danger to themselves or others. They had to release him from the ED. There is no fact established that says he was on PCP at that time. Emergency rooms exist to treat emergencies. They may have given instructions for him to visit his own doctor after release.

      Somerby is implying that so-called professionals are not doing their jobs. Both you and he seem to misunderstand what those jobs consist of.

      Delete
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    8. According to this Prude’s brother said that before he was taken to the hospital he was threatening suicide and had tried to throw himself down a flight of stairs.

      https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/09/04/us/daniel-prude-body-cam-details/index.html

      That wouldn't have been criteria for holding him? For medicating him? For scanning him in case he was experiencing some sort of brain trauma?

      Emergency rooms do exist to treat psychiatric emergencies as well as physical ones.

      Delete
    9. No, that wouldn't have met the criteria. It wasn't imminent. It was all past tense and since Prude wasn't brought in for attempting suicide, he wasn't in crisis. He wouldn't get a brain scan unless he had neurological symptoms or reported a head injury. Psychiatric symptoms are not the same as neurological symptoms and "brain trauma" typically doesn't cause mental illness without other organic symptoms.

      Bringing someone to the ER and saying, he is mentally ill and hard to handle, isn't a crisis and it isn't what the ER does. He would need to go to a mental health treatment facility, but if he didn't agree to treatment, he would be released unless he was a danger to himself or others, and then he could only be held for 72 hrs, after which a court would have to commit him. Many mentally ill people refuse treatment and that is why there are so many of them among our homeless population.

      People with borderline PD threaten suicide whenever they don't get their way. If he tried to throw himself down stairs but had no physical injuries, you have to question his intent. You can't just lock someone up in this country with the excuse that they are crazy.

      Delete
  12. The alt-right is busily spreading the idea that BLM protesters are violent. The ADL reviews this and provides examples of alt-right disinformation aimed at BLM:

    https://www.adl.org/resources/reports/adl-debunk-disinformation-and-the-blm-protests

    "The May 2020 murder of George Floyd by a Minneapolis police officer sparked nationwide protests against police brutality and systemic racism. As the demonstrations spread to communities across the country, so too did disinformation about the protests and protesters. In a time of national unrest and racial tension, these false claims intentionally sowed fear and division, while also undermining protesters’ efforts to build coalitions and bring about lasting structural change.

    Researchers in ADL’s Center on Extremism documented a range of examples of disinformation related to the protests. These campaigns often included the deliberate mischaracterization of groups or movements, such as portraying activists who support Black Lives Matter as violent extremists or claiming that antifa is a terrorist organization coordinated or manipulated by nebulous external forces. ADL’s researchers found evidence of white supremacists creating or promoting some of these fabricated claims and rumors to further their own agendas. Certain pieces of disinformation which originally appeared years ago have reemerged in the context of the current protests. In some cases, unsubstantiated rumors migrated from digital platforms to physical-world responses.

    It is important to note that the following list is not intended to be a comprehensive collection of all misinformation and disinformation circulating about the protests. Rather, it is a sampling of specifically extremist-related and hate-based disinformation campaigns around the ongoing Black Lives Matter demonstrations. It is also important to understand that the Black Lives Matter movement is a decentralized, grassroots movement that is not directed by a particular Black Lives Matter organization."

    Go to the link to see the specific examples of disinformation being spread by the right against BLM.

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    2. Poor liberal cult's brownshirts are being mischaracterized. How disturbing.

      Delete
    3. We either get lectured on the fact that the rioting is the only means to make people listen or that the rioting is being done by elements pretending to be the good guys.

      Delete
    4. Average number of times per day that Donald Trump tweeted in 2017 : 7
      In 2020 : 32

      Delete
    5. Cecelia, you don't have to be here. Or you could go look at the ADL's website and learn something.

      Delete
  13. From Democratic Underground:

    "Trump Ended 2018 France Trip Having Art Loaded on Air Force One

    Source: Bloomberg

    After Donald Trump’s planned trip to a French cemetery for fallen Marines was canceled in November 2018, the U.S. leader had some extra time on his hands in a mansion filled with artwork. The next day, he went art shopping -- or the presidential equivalent.

    Trump fancied several of the pieces in the U.S. ambassador’s historic residence in Paris, where he was staying, and on a whim had them removed and loaded onto Air Force One, according to people familiar with the matter. The works -- a portrait, a bust, and a set of silver figurines -- were brought back to the White House."

    Trump told Ambassador Jaimie McCourt that she would get the figurines back in 6 years.

    ReplyDelete
  14. “we see no questions being asked about what happened at the medical center”

    From the WaPo:
    “Joe Prude, whose brother died in March after being suffocated by police during a mental-health arrest, complained Thursday that his brother had received inadequate care during an earlier visit to Strong Memorial Hospital.”

    From the Democrat & Chronicle
    “In a statement Friday evening, URMC expressed sympathy for the Prude family's loss but said confidentiality laws prevented the release of any information about Prude’s treatment.

    The medical center has offered to sit down with members of Prude's family to discuss the care they gave him, and has sent the family a letter asking them to waive privacy protections and allow URMC to discuss Prude's care in public.”

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    Replies
    1. Their responsibility in this will be addressed in the form of a check.

      Delete
    2. Cecelia, that's what police do to absolve themselves of responsibility from excessive force complaints -- settle by paying off the families.

      Delete
    3. The emergency room isn't the right place to be treating mental illness, a chronic disorder requiring assessment and ongoing treatment. A mental health emergency is someone who has attempted suicide or is threatening other people, not someone who might spit on an officer.

      Delete
    4. Again- according to Daniel Prude’s brother, Daniel had spoken of suicide and had attempted to throw himself down some stairs.

      An emergency room is the pace to treat someone in this sort of acute crisis. Whether it’s drug-induced, or from some sort of physical illness, or a psychological breakdown.

      The emergency room doctor has the authority to mandate someone into a psychiatric facility for further evaluation for being a danger to themselves and others due to substance abuse.

      Delete
    5. You are talking about what he threatened to do or said in the past. That isn't a crisis. Mentally ill (and not ill) people threaten such things all the time without needing medication. If they seriously attempt it, that is another matter. In the ER, someone would evaluate the seriousness of his intent, and if they determined that he was not a current danger to himself or others, he would be released.

      Emergency room workers are trained to evaluate and they cannot mandate someone be confined without meeting established criteria. Their judgment was confirmed since Prude did not assault anyone and did not attempt suicide after being released. Mental illness of a relative is very difficult for a family to deal with, but ERs do not provide any mental health treatment to people not admitted and they cannot confine people without reason because that is a violation of their civil rights (as determined by court cases). It is common for mentally ill people to refuse treatment. You can't lock people up because they are difficult to handle or don't agree with treatment (in the USA, in other countries there are different laws).

      As it turns out, Prude was not endangering himself or others when the police put a hood over his head and suffocated him. He was complying with officers and then began engaging in spitting (an annoying but minor offense) so they put a hood on him. He didn't attempt suicide and he didn't assault anyone. He was walking in the cold weather naked.

      Delete
    6. Cecelia, in case you hadn’t noticed, I was originally offering a counter to Somerby’s assertion that “we see no questions being asked about what happened at the medical center.” That isn’t a true statement.

      I am not trying to assign blame here. I’m sure the hospital feels it followed its protocols and is not liable.

      Somerby wants to cast blame on others besides (or instead of) police officers, or at least he complains that only police officers are being blamed by...someone, liberals?

      And in this case:

      “A notice of intent to sue the city has been filed and city officials are said to be aware of the family’s anger over Prude’s death.”

      “During a news conference Wednesday, Shields said that the Prude family "will sue everyone who is responsible for Daniel Prude's death."”

      As a conservative, you likely support Republican tort reform, which caps the sizes of the “checks” written to victims of medical malpractice and abuse. Conservatives generally want no blame assigned, either to medical professionals or police officers. Somerby wants universal blame, or seems to, and then claims that no one is looking outside the police force for accountability, when that is false.

      Delete
  15. “ Cecelia, that's what police do to absolve themselves of responsibility from excessive force complaints -- settle by paying off the families.”

    The department does. Individual officers face legal charges.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Only if they break the law.

      Otherwise, the department pays for them. They are expected to know the limits of their authority.

      Delete
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