None of the others are being duped?

MONDAY, OCTOBER 14, 2024

So suggests Charlie Warzel: Why are so many people going to vote for Candidate Trump? Over here in Blue America, inquiring minds do—but also don't—seem to want to know.

Back in 2020, 74.2 million people did vote for Candidate Trump. That's a very large number of people—but why in the world did they do that? 

We voted for Candidate Biden ourselves. In that sense, we may not be the right people to ask. 

If you want to know why all those other people voted for Trump, it might make sense to go and ask them! That said, many of us in Blue America have criticized major news orgs for asking such questions as that.

Please don't speak to the Others, we've heatedly said. We'd call that a deeply human impulse, but one which may not be constructive.

Along these lines, we were puzzled by something Charlie Warzel said in a new essay for The Atlantic. He starts with several things we agree with completely. Under a dual headline, his essay starts as shown:

I'M RUNNING OUT OF WAYS TO EXPLAIN HOW BAD THIS IS
What’s happening in America today is something darker than a misinformation crisis.

The truth is, it’s getting harder to describe the extent to which a meaningful percentage of Americans have dissociated from reality. As Hurricane Milton churned across the Gulf of Mexico last night, I saw an onslaught of outright conspiracy theorizing and utter nonsense racking up millions of views across the internet. The posts would be laughable if they weren’t taken by many people as gospel. Among them: Infowars’ Alex Jones, who claimed that Hurricanes Milton and Helene were “weather weapons” unleashed on the East Coast by the U.S. government, and “truth seeker” accounts on X that posted photos of condensation trails in the sky to baselessly allege that the government was “spraying Florida ahead of Hurricane Milton” in order to ensure maximum rainfall, “just like they did over Asheville!”

As Milton made landfall, causing a series of tornados, a verified account on X reposted a TikTok video of a massive funnel cloud with the caption “WHAT IS HAPPENING TO FLORIDA?!” The clip, which was eventually removed but had been viewed 662,000 times as of yesterday evening, turned out to be from a video of a CGI tornado that was originally published months ago. Scrolling through these platforms, watching them fill with false information, harebrained theories, and doctored images—all while panicked residents boarded up their houses, struggled to evacuate, and prayed that their worldly possessions wouldn’t be obliterated overnight—offered a portrait of American discourse almost too bleak to reckon with head-on.

It's true that the American discourse is currently driven by mountains of madness. In our view, it's true that these waves of madness create "an American discourse almost too bleak to reckon with head-on."

We completely agree with those opening judgments! But as Warzel continues directly, we find ourselves puzzled by this:

Even in a decade marred by online grifters, shameless politicians, and an alternative right-wing-media complex pushing anti-science fringe theories, the events of the past few weeks stand out for their depravity and nihilism. As two catastrophic storms upended American cities, a patchwork network of influencers and fake-news peddlers have done their best to sow distrust, stoke resentment, and interfere with relief efforts. But this is more than just a misinformation crisis. To watch as real information is overwhelmed by crank theories and public servants battle death threats is to confront two alarming facts: first, that a durable ecosystem exists to ensconce citizens in an alternate reality, and second, that the people consuming and amplifying those lies are not helpless dupes but willing participants.

Once again, it's true! As matters stand at the present time, it's true that "a durable ecosystem exists to ensconce citizens in an alternate reality."

But why does Warzel go on to offer that second assessment? Why does he say that "the people consuming and amplifying those lies are not helpless dupes but [are] willing participants" instead?

Why in the world should we draw that sweeping conclusion? As Warzel continues along in his essay, we can't see that he ever explains.

It's true! Thanks in large part to the so-called "democratization of media," American citizens are now exposed to an unrelenting stream of false and misleading claims. The question we ask is his:

Many people do end up repeating such claims. But why should we assume that none of those people are being duped? Why should we assume that all those people are "willing participants" in the spread of misinformation, as Warzel seems to claim?

Being human, we inhabitants of Blue America are strongly inclined to drift in this direction—to drift in the direction of assuming and asserting the worst about all the Others, not excluding the 74.2 million people who voted for Trump last time.

In the circumstance described by Warzel, is it really true that none of those people do, in fact, believe the false claims and are, in that sense, "dupes?" Is Warzel saying that all the people who repeat false claims are doing so in full knowledge that what they're saying is bogus?

Easy to be hard, we'd say. Also, we'd be inclined to say this:

Given the way we humans are wired, we're strongly inclined to draw such sweeping conclusions about those very bad people, the Others. Especially at tribalized times such as this, such assessments are bred in the bone.

In a similar vein, why do people vote for Candidate Trump? 

Back in 2020, more than 74 million people did! If you want to know why they did, you should possibly just go out and ask them.

Some of their answers won't make sense. On the other hand, some of the answers they give you might not necessarily seem to be totally nuts. We'll be puzzling about this matter all through the course of the week.

Charlie Warzel's a good, decent person. We'll admit that we were puzzled by what he apparently said.


67 comments:

  1. I can’t speak for other Trump voters but imo Trump’s foreign policy worked much better than Biden’s. Trump produced peace; Biden produced war.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Are you still thinking that it's because Trump brings "good luck" or have you decided that there was an actual policy or decision that mattered?

      Delete
    2. The latter. In the Middle East the policy difference is crystal clear. Biden allowed Iran to violate the sanctions and get a fortune. Money that was used by Hezbollah, Hamas, and Iran itself for weapons to attack Israel.

      Ukraine is not as clear-cut. It is likely that Trump’s policy of military strength did a better job of deterring Putin than Obama’s or Harris’s.

      Delete
    3. The phrase 'Trump's policy of military strength' has a solid ring to it. What exactly was it, and what distinguished it from Biden's weaker policy?

      Delete
    4. David, Trump abrogated all treaties signed with foreign nations, including ones with Iran that would have kept sanctions in place and prevented development of nuclear weapons. Trump did not deter Putin from invading Ukraine. He allowed Putin to keep the Crimera and to populate the areas later invaded with Russian settlers so that he could later claim that these were "Russian" areas that didn't blong in Ukraine. Putin has been doing the same with other Baltic countries while actively fighting Ukraine. Trump also threatened to withhold defense weapons from Ukraine in exchange for manufacturing dirt on Hunter Biden, which Zelensky refused to do and Trump was subsequently impeached for attempting to do.

      Delete
    5. Perhaps this is what is meant by "Trump's policy of military strength":

      "FEMA has been forced to temporarily stop disaster recovery efforts in several areas suffering the impacts of Hurricane Helene. Those pauses came from threats on workers and, in one case, the reported presence of an armed militia."

      https://www.salon.com/2024/10/14/fema-offices-forced-to-halt-hurricane-helene-operations-due-to-threats-militias/?in_brief=true

      Delete
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    8. Good question, Hector. We start with the fact that Russia gobbled up parts of Ukraine during the Obama and Biden Administrations, but they left Ukraine alone when Trump was President.

      We can't get into Putin's brain, so we can only guess what influenced his decisions. My guess isTrump was more fearsome because he showed a willingness to take unusual actions that he believed were right such as
      -- Recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capital
      -- killing Solimani
      IMO Biden was less fearsome, because of
      -- the fouled up withdrawal from Afghanistan
      -- kowtowing to Iran

      Delete
    9. People living in the affected areas of North Carolina aren't relying on Trump's statements to tell them what's happening. They're actually experiencing it. If some locals think FEMA is doing more harm than good in their locality, they're probably right

      Delete
    10. FEMA supports "Drill, baby, drill"?
      Who knew?

      Delete
    11. A recent press release by Rep. Edwards (R-NC) who represents western North Carolina, cited the falsehoods below that he felt it necessary to debunk.

      Which of them do you suppose are 'probably right'?

      1. that Hurricane Helene was geoengineered by the gvt.;

      2. that FEMA is stopping trucks with donations and supplies in order to seize them for their own purposes;

      3. that FEMA is seizing people's property and land;

      4. that the FAA is restricting air access, thereby hindering rescue and supply operations;

      5. that FEMA assistance is limited to $750.

      Surely some of the above must be true, else the people, in their wisdom, would not believe them.

      Delete
    12. https://edwards.house.gov/media/press-releases/debunking-helene-response-myths

      Delete
    13. “ Recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capital”

      Do you think this contributed to peace and stability in the region? Were there any negative consequences?

      Delete
    14. Hector -- Your #2 denial is too specific. It should be
      -- 2. Did FEMA ever stop a truck with supplies?
      #4 also could be improved
      4. Did the government ever restrict air access?
      I don't know the answers

      Delete
    15. @8:17 Recognizing Jerusalem was considered risky. Some were predicting an Uprising in the Arab Street. That didn't happen. The big negative consequence didn't happen

      Were there minor negative consequences? I don't know. Is peace better preserved by kindness to misbehavior or by punishing misbehavior? Sometimes it's one, sometimes it's the other.

      Delete
    16. Bob Somerby’s analystsOctober 14, 2024 at 8:48 PM

      On the one hand, you liked Trump’s solid foreign policy, David. On the other hand, we, along with Bob, feel that Trump is mentally ill. We pity him, but it’s disgraceful that he has a shot. But, you know, YMMV.

      Delete
    17. David,

      the items you are willing to entertain doubts about are characterized by 1 Republican Congressman in North Carolina as stemming from "untrustworthy sources trying to spark chaos by sharing hoaxes, conspiracy theories, and hearsay about hurricane response efforts."

      So I guess you can consider yourself an honorary untrustworthy source.

      Delete
    18. In reality, the moving of the embassy along with the Abraham accords led directly to increased funding to Hamas (encouraged by Netanyahu) and the 10/7 attack.

      Trump was actually weak on Iran and made the weird mistake of illegally assassinating a general that led to increased tensions.

      Trump was Putin’s puppet allowing Putin to keep Crimea and to militarize in preparing for the Ukraine invasion.

      The US had more American military deaths under Trump than Biden, and Trump oversaw more civilian deaths in regions of conflict, directly contributing to increased worldwide tensions.

      Biden has had to clean up Trump’s mess of increased worldwide tensions.

      Trump was a disaster as a president, both domestically and with foreign affairs, one of the worst presidents ever on foreign affairs, we became the laughing stock of the world under Trump, and Biden/Harris has worked hard to restore our reputation and deescalate the tension the Trump wrought.

      Delete
    19. "Biden allowed Iran to violate the sanctions and get a fortune. Money that was used by Hezbollah, Hamas, and Iran itself for weapons to attack Israel."

      I see. You've bought into Trump's make-believe world. Best of luck.

      Delete
    20. "but they left Ukraine alone when Trump was President."

      That's just wrong. I think what you mean to say is "Puting didn't stage a military invasion when Trump was president." Russia was far from leaving Ukraine alone.

      Delete
    21. It was Trump being president that allowed Putin to develop his plan of invading Ukraine.

      When Trump lost to Biden, Putin didn’t think that Biden and the rest of the world would stand up to him, but they did. In reality, Ukraine and Biden have exposed Putin as a paper tiger, and Biden has strengthened the alliances we have around the world, so that Putin is no longer a serious threat. Russia is now in tatters, Putin has had his ass handed to him, by Ukraine and Biden.

      If Trump had been elected, Putin would have taken Ukraine, and gone further, likely taking Poland as well. And Netanyahu would have destroyed Gaza, taken the West Bank and Lebanon too; he’s trying now and Biden needs to work hard to resist him, but with Trump it would have been a cakewalk for both Netanyahu and Putin.

      Delete
    22. Hector do you believe that in NC FEMA never stopped a truck with supplies. Not even once. And air access was never restricted. Not even once. You may be right, but it's hard to prove a negative.

      I recommend you read this link https://americanmilitarynews.com/2024/10/firefighter-says-he-was-threatened-with-arrest-for-helping-rescue-hurricane-victims/
      It includes specific names and details, which makes it more plausible. AFAIK this story hasn't been disproved. Are you certain that it's false?

      Delete
    23. David, many women say they were raped by Trump.

      Using your ‘logic’ and criteria, you should believe them.

      In fact, by your standard David, you should believe pretty much anything anybody says.

      Delete
    24. Trump enabled Putin.

      Via Trump, Putin felt emboldened to invade Ukraine.

      And Putin would have gotten away with it, except Trump lost and Biden wasn’t having it.

      Now Putin lives in fear every day as he hands the keys of his country over to China.

      Delete
    25. You're close, @10:17. I don't fully believe or disbelieve these stories. Trump may have committed rape for all I know. Or, the accusations may be false. I'm perfectly willing to say, "I don't know."

      Delete
    26. Right you don’t know if a local firefighter told that rogue helicopter pilot to stop interfering with their own rescue efforts (because it makes things worse and could lead to disasters, which is why you never help an injured victim and instead call for paramedics or other authorities, otherwise you risk being sued and/or prosecuted, duh), but that doesn’t explain why you’re pushing this false narrative that FEMA was not providing assistance when clearly it was, and doing a better job than Trump’s admin, and that’s according to even the local Republican leaders in the area.

      What explains your nonsense is that you don’t care about those victims, or any victims, you just care about finding a way to cope with your emotional disturbances by lashing out at your perceived “enemies”.

      Somerby’s pity won’t help you, not much will, because your issues are baked in, but you could start by trying to gain some self awareness.

      Delete
    27. I'm perfectly fine saying David in Cal doesn't know anything.

      Delete
  2. Why are we getting worked up over what some random guys say on Twitter? Yes, some people will believe some of this stuff, but so what? Most normal people just ignore right wing nonsense, just like they ignore climate alarmism religion from very serious people of the left.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "climate alarmism religion "
      From your keyboard to the those crying about rainstorms in North Carolina and Florida.

      Delete
  3. I wrote a heartfelt comment about the importance of living in congruence with reality, its survival value, and the perils of believing false info. I then connected that to the importance of education and Somerby's troublesome attitudes toward being well educated in a complex world. My comment was published but then it was deleted.

    There is no point in thinking about what Somerby writes, formulating a response and writing it, if Somerby is going to delete comments at will.

    It is also dishonest. If Somerby only wants to hear from trolls, or doesn't care when people think about his ideas, he should turn off the comments entirely. Digby did that and other blogs have too. It is wrong to sucker people into making an effort to discuss anything on a blog where neither Somerby nor his right wing trolls really care what anyone else thinks. For the trolls this is about political warfare. For Somerby, who knows? It think he is most likely mentally ill and not capable of making sense. Either way, I am not going to waste my time here any more.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Harris is a really bad candidate.

      Delete
    2. 6:52,
      I get that Treason McRapey does a way better job of embodying the essence of fascism, for sure. But who was arguing otherwise?

      Delete
    3. "I am not going to waste my time here any more."

      Thank God.

      Delete
    4. Anonymouse 7:22pm, yep. There’s an act of God we can all endorse.

      Delete
    5. It hurts Bob's feelings when TDH readers are reminded that anyone who isn't a bigot, or isn't perfectly fine with bigotry, left the Republican Party more than two dozen years ago.

      Delete
    6. “god, please make Cecelia go away.”

      Delete
    7. Anonymouse 8:19pm, “God requested that the next time, the letter "G" should be capitalized and then further consideration will be given.“

      ~ Ashli Babbitt

      Delete
    8. The traitor Ashli Babbitt? That Ashli Babbitt?

      Delete
    9. Anonymouse 9:04pm, no, the other Ashli Babbitt.

      Delete
    10. Trump is better at raping than Harris.

      Trump voters endorse rape.

      Trump even raped a 13yo girl (she reminded him of his daughter).

      Trump weirdly used the word ‘rape’ in a recent speech and then even pontificated on the word for a while, delighting in repeating the word, even trying out different ways of enunciating the word, enjoying the way his use of the word would offend others.

      Trump voters are extremely wounded folks, full of hurt, and out to hurt others.

      Delete
    11. “Give me a second chance, Anonymouse 9:27pm.

      ~Harris

      Delete
    12. I’ll give you the last word.

      Delete
    13. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
    14. Cecelia is voting for a rapist, and thinks it’s funny that this circumstance upsets or offends others.

      It’s this kind of attitude, being cavalier about issues like rape, that will lose the election for Trump.

      “Hahahaha rape is so funny.”

      Delete
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  5. Why did Harris agree to an interview on FoxNews Wednesday, after doing only friendly interviews?
    1. She feels she's ready to handle a hostile interview
    2. She thinks she's losing, so she has to try something different
    3. Other

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. 4. To prove Right-wingers wrong about everything they feel they are sure about.

      Delete
    2. DiC, the Harris campaign has been reaching out to Republicans disgusted by Trump, and she has been publicly endorsed by quite a number of Republicans, some even speaking at her rallies. Did they tell you that on your media sources? Going on Fox would be a way to get her message out to a different larger audience.

      And why must the interview be “hostile?”

      Delete
    3. Trump would win if the election were held tomorrow so Harris is definitely doing it as an offensive maneuver. I've mentioned it here many times. Democrats are now Republicans. They are Republicans of 20 years ago. Pro-corporate, pro-CIA, pro surveillance and censorship and so, so pro war. Democrats, democrats are the people who are all happy and proud to tell you how great the Ukraine war is for our economy and how great it is that their country with 600,000 (and counting) killed and not ours.

      Democrats of today are fascist, neocon Bush Cheney Republicans. And that's exactly what we are seeing. Cheney, the war mongering Dark Lord himself espousing his appreciation for Harris's foreign policy and the continued de$truction of Ukraine, Carl Rove is on board now helping the Democrats - he's probably the one that engineered this.

      So that's why Harris is going on Fox. She's coming home. She's going where she belongs. Democrats lost black men, lost Hispanics, lost Muslims, lost young people, what else Catholics? Lost the hippie left. All they have left are an indoctrinated group of DNC robots who have been systematically fooled into having a false sense of objectivity, convinced that they see the world clearly and are morally superior, even though their understanding has been filtered through biased information sources like Hopium Chronicles, Lawyers Guns and Money and the dreadful Heather Cox Richardson. These are the engines of groupthink that was so effective it turned them into neocon Republicans without them even realizing it! .

      With Harris doing so poorly, her advisors all got together this weekend to plan what to do and this is it. This is the only card left to play. Admit and show to the world what you really are. Republicans. Carl Rove will help her basically be George Bush in the interview. That's the plan. That's what happened this weekend. It's not the worst plan in the world. And it's good for Democrats to be honest and admit the truth ... they are Republicans now.

      Delete
    4. let me fix the html:

      Trump would win if the election were held tomorrow so Harris is definitely doing it as an offensive maneuver. I've mentioned it here many times. Democrats are now Republicans. They are Republicans of 20 years ago. Pro-corporate, pro-CIA, pro surveillance and censorship and so, so pro war. Democrats, democrats are the people who are all happy and proud to tell you how great the Ukraine war is for our economy and how great it is that their country with 600,000 (and counting) killed and not ours.

      Democrats of today are fascist, neocon Bush Cheney Republicans. And that's exactly what we are seeing. Cheney, the war mongering Dark Lord himself espousing his appreciation for Harris's foreign policy and the continued de$truction of Ukraine, Carl Rove is on board now helping the Democrats - he's probably the one that engineered this.

      So that's why Harris is going on Fox. She's coming home. She's going where she belongs. Democrats lost black men, lost Hispanics, lost Muslims, lost young people, what else Catholics? Lost the hippie left. All they have left are an indoctrinated group of DNC robots who have been systematically fooled into having a false sense of objectivity, convinced that they see the world clearly and are morally superior, even though their understanding has been filtered through biased information sources like Hopium Chronicles, Lawyers Guns and Money and the dreadful Heather Cox Richardson. These are the engines of groupthink that was so effective it turned them into neocon Republicans without them even realizing it! .

      With Harris doing so poorly, her advisors all got together this weekend to plan what to do and this is it. This is the only card left to play. Admit and show to the world what you really are. Republicans. Carl Rove will help her basically be George Bush in the interview. That's the plan. That's what happened this weekend. It's not the worst plan in the world. And it's good for Democrats be honest and admit the truth ... they are Republicans now.
      🤷‍♂️☮️🤘🤮

      Delete
    5. 9;05,
      I voted for George w. Bush because he was a big supporter of abortion.
      LOL.

      Delete
    6. I voted for Trump, but I can see the writing on the wall, he’s going to lose, so I’m switching to Harris because I don’t want to vote for a loser.

      Delete
  6. Somerby doesn’t seem to have a clue about human nature, which is why he is so (supposedly) puzzled by human behavior, but instead of bothering to learn the science, he’d rather just read some fictional story and try to use that as a model for reality, which is why he presents as being so misguided on the subject. Unsurprisingly, fictional authors through the ages don’t offer much coherent or credible insight into human behavior, but they can offer emotional soothing for those that are mystified by humans.

    No, the loony Republicans don’t actually believe the nonsense, they are getting off on owning the libs, they have an undying urge for dominance, which manifests in various ways such as oppressing others and “owning” others using whatever means they have.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Like I said earlier- when anonymices cirque their contrarians they sound like Mengele must have sounded when talking about Jews.

      Delete
    2. Anonymouse 10:13pm, if you’re lucky she’ll mention amygdalae.

      Delete
    3. I used to have a crush on Amy Carter.

      Delete
    4. Yeah but you do have an oversized amygdala (learn some basic neuroscience), the question is why do you feel shame over something not in your control?

      Delete
    5. Anonymouse 10:32pm, Doc, why do you desire to turn my amygdala into your throw pillow?

      Delete