Supplemental: One of the oldest recorded tales!

THURSDAY, AUGUST 20, 2015

The night that pulled them through:
When you read The Iliad, you’re reading some of the world’s oldest recorded stories—and some of the most elemental.

Novelists still revise and tinker with those first recorded stories. But The Iliad tells them in simplest form. Homer got there first.

In the past week, we’ve been thinking again about “the night that rips our ranks to shreds or pulls us through.” It occurs in Book 9 of The Iliad, as it begins to appear that the Achaeans will have to abandon their plan to avenge the theft of Helen by taking Troy.

Their leader, lord of men Agamemnon, decides to sail home, defeated. Headstrong young Diomedes rises to say that he will stay and continue the fight alone.

The group is coming apart at the seams. Nestor, the seasoned charioteer, rises to offer advice. (“From the early days his plans and tactics always seemed the best.”)

In Professor Fagles’ 1990 translation, these events follow Diomedes’ speech. Nestor scrambles to his feet to urge a wiser course:
THE ILIAD: All the Achaeans shouted their assent,
stirred by the stallion-breaking Diomedes' challenge.
But Nestor the old driver rose and spoke at once.

“Few can match your power in battle, Diomedes,
and in council you excel all men your age
But you don't press on and reach a useful end.
How young you are—why, you could be my son,
my youngest-born at that, though you urge our kings
with cool clear sense: what you've said is right.

But it's my turn now, Diomedes.
I think I can claim to have some years on you.
So I must speak up and drive the matter home.
And no one will heap contempt on what I say,
not even mighty Agamemnon. Lost to the clan,
lost to the hearth, lost to the old ways, that one
who lusts for the horror of war with his own people.”
Nestor is warning Diomedes and his allies—nothing good is going to come from a split within the clan. Moments later, he even says this:

“Tonight's the night that rips our ranks to shreds or pulls us through.”

Hillary Clinton and Julius Jones conducted an ancient discussion last week. For our money, Clinton’s position made more sense, on balance. But in the end, that’s not the point.

We’ve been thinking about Book 9 all week, with a possible sense of foreboding. That was a dangerous evening back then. Homer recorded it first.

36 comments:

  1. Debbie Wasserman Schultz is based on a character from the Iliad, Harpy.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Debbie Wasserman Schultz = US Congresswoman and Chair of the Democratic Committee

      cicero = sadsack trolling for wingnut pennies from parents' basement.

      Delete
    2. DWS= Harpy who on two separate occasions couldn't provide the answer to the question what is the difference between a Democrat and a Socialist.

      Perhaps the Afghan Hound sleeping on her head interferes with mental acuity.

      Delete
    3. Way to prove 553's point, troll.

      Delete
    4. @8:37

      5:33's complaint is that no matter how poorly a public official does their job they shouldn't be criticized or ridiculed. Of course that only applies to liberal public officials.

      Delete
  2. Not clear whether Somerby is urging the BLM folks not to turn on the liberal candidates, or the Sanders and Clinton supporters not to wage war, although that's what a campaign is about. If BLM supporters decide no candidate shares their interests sufficiently, that's what 3rd parties are for. It is part of our democratic process. I dsee the Illiad as a good analogy because politics is what you do to avoid war, and it is tough enough to withstand dissent. Clinton may lose but voters have the right to follow their own interests as they perceive them. There will be no war. I think BLM supporters would be better off with a Democrat than a Republican, but it is up to them to reach that conclusion.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. And I think they would be better off with a Democrat than with taking their marbles and going home, but it is up to them to reach that conclusion.

      Of course, it's up to reasonable people to have reasonable discussions that might help other reasonable people reach reasonable conclusions...

      When mass media "discussions" take the form of charades, I support calling that for what it is.

      Delete
    2. In a more rational election system, it would make sense to reject the offerings from both Democrats and Republicans if what they offer falls too short of what you want. However, here in the real world, choosing neither is not really a choice. Either a Democrat or a Republican *will* be the next President and the system is sufficiently rigged against third parties that no amount of protest voting will change that. If BLM supporters and others feel that the only way to show their unhappiness is to sit out the election, then they might as well just vote Republican and see how that turns out. The best solution is to change the election system to make it possible for third party candidates to be heard and elected (instant run off voting, for example). If you are angry enough, make it happen!

      Delete
    3. How I Got Back My Lover (eboehispellcaster@yahoo.com)

      Hello, i am Kathie Sherine from Ohio, USA. I am so happy to get my Ex back through the help of Dr Eboehi the spell caster. My greatest surprise was that 48 hours after the Doctor prepared the spell for me, my husband who has abandoned me for 4 years suddenly called me unexpectedly and am so happy that we have come to become one again through the help of Dr Eboehi and am so happy to be with my husband once again. Dr Eboehi is a very wonderful spell caster, you can contact him if you need his assistant because i know he can also help you. contact him through his email: eboehispellcaster@yahoo.com or immediately reach him by text through his mobile number +1 (785) 815-6319

      Delete
  3. When you are reading the Howler you are reading one of the internet's oldest blogs and one of its most repetitive.

    Bob Somerby revives and tinkers with his old stories, and Noble Nestor was one of the first and still a favorite..

    "Our internationally-acclaimed Task Force on Classical Allusions was scratching its head as we watched HardballThursday night, as we enjoyed a surprise appearance by AP’s Walter Mears on the inventive CNBC program.

    And then, of course! The team had it at last! It was noble Nestor whom Mears evoked--Homer’s noble Nestor, king of Pylos’ sandy harbor, seasoned old chieftain to the long-haired Achaeans... You recall:"

    June 2, 1998 One of the early, early Howlers!

    "Our Internationally-Acclaimed Task Force on Classical Allusions was pondering the remarkable events down in Florida. And then, of course! The team had it at last! It was noble Nestor whom the times evoked!"

    November 14, 2000 Nestor fits the Florida recount!

    "We strongly recommend the transcript of last night’s Hardball, featuring John Kerry for the full hour before a student group at The Citadel. Kerry offered intelligent, nuanced views about war with Iraq—Such discussions have occurred since the dawn of the west—at least since noble Nestor, the seasoned charioteer, spoke words of wisdom to ardent Diomedes in the war councils portrayed in The Iliad."

    October 3, 2002 Kerry plays the Nestor role

    Over the years, Jeff Greenfield has evoked memories of Noble Nestor. So has E.J Dionne. Now, as Bob grows long in the tooth, his most recent person to play Nestor was Bob himself, when he advised young readers not to believe all the nasty things being said about Rudy Giuliani (Dec. 22, 2014).

    But perhaps the best invocation of the old sage, complete with Bob Somerby's almost constant phrase of praise for the piquant translation of Professor Fagles, was his phrase for phrase comparison of Noble Nestor to Al Gore.

    The title of that post was Gore on War. It is not to be confused with the equally recurring phrase War on Gore. June 3, 2004. We strongly recommend you revisit it time and time again.

    http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh060304.shtml

    A final piteous note: “Do you think Bob had figured out by June, 2004, when Al Gore spoke out, that Saddam did not have those WMD's Bob was sure he had back in April, 2003?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "Here at THE HOWLER, we’ve never doubted that Saddam had WMDs. In fact, we’d be surprised if he didn’t. We think antiwar types set themselves up for a fall when they crow about the lack of quick discovery."

      Bob Somerby 4/22/2003

      Delete
    2. Yep, he should've doubted it. So should have many others.

      Nevertheless, wariness of hinging one's anti-war position on the lack of WMD was quite reasonable.

      It's entirely honest, I'm certain, for some people to have said, "Well I'm anti-war because I'm certain no WMD exist; if they do exist, well, then I'm pro-war."

      But it would've also been -- and was! -- reasonable for many other people holding an anti-war position to stake out a stronger case, one that wasn't contingent on the non-existence of WMD.

      TL;DR: Tired, old "gotcha" is tired, old.

      Delete
    3. Bob-apology types calling anyone out for revisitng old material? Interesting.

      Bob-apology types,noticing how many times Bob professes he doesn't know (Hillary email wrongdoing for example). But here Bob had no doubts. Fascinating.

      I think Bob apology types are setting themselves up for a fall.

      Or at least not getting in a four year college and possibly seeing a governor indicted.

      Delete
    4. Anon 8:44 - So back in 2003 you actually *knew* that there were no WMDs. How very interesting. I would submit that even today you don't know that. You only know what someone else has told you. How often have you visited Iraq since the war? Have you completed your tour of hidey-holes? You know nothing about what you are talking about and then you make fun of Bob if he says he doesn't know. Grow up.

      Delete
  4. Couldn't have said it better myself.

    *******************
    "Oh, I love Donald Trump because he exposes everything about the Republican Party that I have frankly come to hate. It is just filled with people who are crazy, and stupid, and have absolutely no idea of what they are taking about. And the candidates, no matter how intelligent they may be, just constantly have to keep pandering to this lowest common denominator in American politics."

    The harshness of the comments shocked Chris Hayes. He said it seemed like an elitist generalization. One can be sure there was a journalistic wink in Chris Hayes's pushback.

    But Bartlett continued. "I think it is pretty obvious to anyone who follows politics. The problem is to use a term that I don't like, it's not politically correct to point out the obvious. And again I think Trump is pointing this out. Among other things, to follow up with your comment, one of the things that we are seeing very clearly this time more than any other year is that issues don't matter. Policies don't matter. The only thing that matters is attitude. And Trump has exactly the right 'chip on your shoulder' attitude that many, many people find extraordinarily attractive that is completely divorced from whatever he is saying about the issues, which is precious little."
    *****************

    ReplyDelete
  5. Yesterday Spocko at Digby's Hullabaloo described the "but Clinton rule". Whenever some sexual "misbehavior" is discovered on the right, an equally horrifying story about Clinton is trotted out. Following the other Clinton rules, Spocko doesn't bother to say that those stories are untrue. Why is our own party unwilling to defend its best president and best-liked politician? Spocko added those words "equally horrible" and doesn't bother to acknowledge the sexual smear campaign that has been part of the campaign to take down Clinton. Shame on Spocko.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. @ 11:14 has finally figured out other people write posts at Hullabaloo besides Digby. Too bad @ 11:14 is still one of those Clinton supporters Who Bob Somerby may have been describving as her biggest problem. She/he totally misses and thus misprepresents Spoko's point.

      For those who care to read it, go here:

      http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2015/08/how-will-campaigns-use-ashley-madison.html

      Spoko wasn't writing about Clinton so there was no need to defend Clinton. Spoko was cautioning against enjoying the stories which will result from the data breach at Ashley Madison.

      "When this happens it often pushes people to defend people or acts that they disagree with but need to defend on principle.

      In the olden days I called it the "But Clinton!" rule because every time you brought up a horrible thing from the right you got a story about Clinton showing equal horribleness."

      Spoko

      Here on these pages we are seeing, from some (but not all) Clinton supporters, the reverse "but Clinton rule." Whenever a criticism of Clinton is raised, we get the "but others did it" defense. And it doesn't matter to those who invoke this rule that "no, in fact, the others you cite did not do what Clinton did." Nor does it matter that the act they defend is one which they would and perhaps did deplore when it was committed by someone they did not like.

      Just as it never mattered to those on the right, when they invoked the "but Clinton" rule that Clinton did not do what they were using to defend something someone on the right did which was the subject of the criticism.

      Delete
    2. Many prospective voters weren't following politics in the 90s so they don't know what Clinton did and especially didn't do. Jokes by late night comedians about Bill Clinton's sleaziness have created an image that he ignores but requires pushback. Socko is just another example of a purported liberal failing to correct the record. It doesn't matter what the rest of the article was about. He or she needed a sentence saying that those "equally horrible" allegations against Clinton were untrue, unsubstantiated, and largely manufactured.

      Delete
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    ReplyDelete
  7. My Husband divorce me for no reason for 9 months and i tried all I could to have him back because I really love him so much but all my effort did not work out,My name is Becky Miller, I live in California,USA. I'm happily married to a lovely and caring husband ,with three kids. A very big problem occurred in my family seven months ago,between me and my husband .so terrible that he took the case to court for a divorce.he said that he never wanted to stay with me again,and that he didn't love me anymore.So he packed out of the house and made me and my children passed through severe pain. I tried all my possible means to get him back,after much begging,but all to no avail.and he confirmed it that he has made his decision,and he never wanted to see me again. So on one evening,as i was coming back from work,i met an old friend of mine who asked of my husband .So i explained every thing to him,so he told me that the only way i can get my husband back,is to visit a spell caster,because it has really worked for him too.So i never believed in spell,but i had no other choice,than to follow his advice. Then he gave me the email address of the spell caster whom he visited.{bravespellcaster@gmail.com}. So the next morning,i sent a mail to the address he gave to me,and the spell caster assured me that i will get my husband back the next day.What an amazing statement!! I never believed,so he spoke with me,and told me everything that i need to do. Then the next morning, So surprisingly, my husband who didn't call me for the past 9 months,gave me a call to inform me that he was coming back.So Amazing!! So that was how he came back that same day,with lots of love and joy,and he apologized for his mistake,and for the pain he caused me and my children. Then from that day,our relationship was now stronger than how it were before,by the help of a spell caster. So, i will advice you out there to kindly visit the same website { http://lovespelldrbrave.weebly.com/. } if you have any problem contact Dr Brave ,{ bravespellcaster@gmail.com }, thanks you Dr Brave, i will always be testifying about your good work, and for any questions call me on +1(575) 779-6197.

    ReplyDelete
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    ReplyDelete
  9. How I Got Back My Lover (eboehispellcaster@yahoo.com)

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    ReplyDelete
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    ReplyDelete
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    No Body is asking or forcing you to do anything but i have an important message for those who are looking for way to get their relationship back.I need you to read this carefully and understand what I'm writing. Spell casting is real, And is as real as you walking into a pizza store to get one to eat.But you have to be carefully not to contact the wrong spell caster because some can really ruin your life for you.I was going to mention one real and trust worthy spell caster to you all but still it your choice to want help from him.I mean I'm not asking any one to contact him i just want you to know maybe you feel you're drowning in your problem and there is no way out then contact OLOLO SPELLS for help and i promise you will be glad you did because he is true and honest with is customers. contact via email: ajayiololo@yahoo.com

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  18. All Americans, Europeans and to everyone that has given up on spell casters like me before now, Either because you have been scammed like me or let down by the spell caster parading themselves to be real and can grant solution to any form of problem in life, It a great thing for to let you all know that the only one out of millions of the spell caster in the world is Dr Ajayi. He is the only spell caster that granted solution to me to win a lottery what $15,000,000.00 dollars. His spell worked for Mari, That i and my wife read his post and it worked for me and without negotiations to you out there it will work for you. Just email ajayiololo@yahoo.com to resolve and grant permanent solution to that problem.

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  19. Why does everyone hang their hopes on medical science. They do not own the work cure! You are amazing and strong and your belief system is held hostage by science. People can say I'm fighting cancer and will beat it and sometimes do with all kinds of things including the powerful mind and everyone applauds. But say herpes can be cured and your laughed at. I was cured by Lucky and I'm not special. I was lucky enough to have been introduced to Dr Lucky Herbal Clinic guided medications. when I was diagnosed with Hsv1&2 I applied the power of my mind and those medications and defeated this weak virus. Herpes is a weak virus and mostly causes emotional pain. Take back your life and power and defeat the weak chicken virus. Almost 10 years no outbreaks and herpes has caused zero problems in my life. Yes I'm cured. Contact Dr Lucky Now! Email: drluckyherbalclinic2@gmail.com, or contact via whatsapp +22378760009

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  20. Why does everyone hang their hopes on medical science. They do not own the work cure! You are amazing and strong and your belief system is held hostage by science. People can say I'm fighting cancer and will beat it and sometimes do with all kinds of things including the powerful mind and everyone applauds. But say herpes can be cured and your laughed at. I was cured by Lucky and I'm not special. I was lucky enough to have been introduced to Dr Lucky Herbal Clinic guided medications. when I was diagnosed with Hsv1&2 I applied the power of my mind and those medications and defeated this weak virus. Herpes is a weak virus and mostly causes emotional pain. Take back your life and power and defeat the weak chicken virus. Almost 10 years no outbreaks and herpes has caused zero problems in my life. Yes I'm cured. Contact Dr Lucky Now! Email: drluckyherbalclinic2@gmail.com, or contact via whatsapp +22378760009

    ReplyDelete


  21. My name is MONICA MORRISON FROM USA, I head that my husband was having an affair with one of my closest friend and I was very upset and worried so a friend of my advice me and told me if I still love my ex and if I really want to have him back so I told her yes, and she ask me to contact Dr.kabaka the spell caster and I did although I never believe on spell so he gave me something when he was casting the spell and ask me to say my wishes on it and after the casting of the spell a receive a phone call from my ex and was ask me at which I did and now we are back together again I’m so happy and I wish not to ever have this mistake again in my life. I will also advice anyone with this kind of issue to contact him for help he is really nice on phone and always there to answer you question giving you the good advice that you need. his email is drkabakaspiritualtemple@gmail.com
    Call or WhatsApp him.
    +2349015857861

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