TUESDAY, DECEMBER 5, 2023
The topic is deeply important: How should Israel be responding to the massacres of October 7?
We can't exactly answer that question. It takes us outside our experience, our background, our depth.
Also this:
Is Israel violating international humanitarian law in its ongoing military actions? Is Israel possibly committing war crimes?
We can't answer those questions either. That said, concerning those last two questions, Rep. Pramila Jayapal (D-Wash) seems to think the answer is yes.
On Sunday, Jayapal appeared on CNN's State of the Union, where she discussed her ideas about the best way for Israel to proceed.
Along the way, she described Hamas as a terrorist organization on three separate occasions. She also said that Israel's current military campaign may not be in that nation's long-term best interest.
Rep. Jayapal stated some familiar concerns about the possible effects of the military action being taken in Gaza. Those concerns have been widely stated by mainstream center-left journalists. Whatever your ultimate view may be, they make an obvious type of sense.
That said, it wasn't clear to us that Jayapal was able to say exactly how Israel should proceed, should it decide to follow her recommendation of an immediate ceasefire.
What should Israel be doing? Whatever your ultimate view may be, the answer isn't obvious. That said, we thought the CNN interview went downhill when Dana Bash introduced a very important topic to the conversation.
The topic was (vicious) sexual violence. The exchange started like this:
BASH (12/3/23): I want to ask you about sexual violence. And the— It is kind of remarkable that this issue hasn't gotten enough attention globally—widespread use of rape, brutal rape, sexual violence against Israeli women by Hamas.
I have seen a lot of progressive women, generally speaking, that are quick to defend women's rights and speak out against using rape as a weapon of war, but downright silent on what we saw on October 7 and what might be happening inside Gaza right now to these hostages. Why is that?
JAYAPAL: I mean, I don't know that that's true. I think what—we always talk about the impact of war on women, in particular. In fact, I remember, 20 years ago, I did a petition around the war in Iraq, saying that—
BASH: Have you talked about it since October 7?
JAYAPAL: Oh, absolutely. And I have condemned what Hamas has done. I have condemned all of the actions.
BASH: Specifically against women?
JAYAPAL: Absolutely, the rape, the—of course.
We don't know if Jayapal's statements are accurate. Has she specifically condemned Hamas' apparent acts of sexual violence against women?
We have no idea. Bash didn't seem to know either, and she's the one who brought the topic up.
Beyond that, we think Bash was possibly being a bit careless in her sweeping initial complaint about the alleged conduct of "a lot of progressive women, generally speaking."
Was her statement accurate? Have "a lot of progressive women, generally speaking," refused to discuss the sexual violence which apparently occurred on October 7—the sexual violence which may still be occurring in the case of female captives of Hamas?
Have "a lot of progressive women, generally speaking," really refused to do that? It's easy to make such sweeping claims, but it isn't a great form of journalism.
Bash gave no specific examples. As the conversation continued, it seems to us that Jayapal's subsequent statements made more sense than Bash's. We thought Bash's statement that Israeli soldiers aren't raping Palestinian women was especially strange.
The next day, the Morning Joe gang played an edited version of this exchange on CNN. Things went downhill from there.
Easy to be hard, a song once said. Also, it's easy to engage in highly performative red-faced spouting on blue tribe "cable news" programs.
We thought Joe and Mika's behavior was extremely poor. After playing a tightly edited bit of the CNN interview, Joe began getting red-faced about Jayapal's alleged behavior while Mika began acting puzzled by it.
On came Mimi Rocah and Joyce Vance, with Rocah immediately mischaracterizing something Jayapal had said to Bash.
Rep. Jayapal is a progressive legislator. We don't automatically agree with her views, but we thought she was treated quite unfairly yesterday morning, pretty much by all concerned.
We thought Joe and Mika's behavior was lazy, careless, uninformed. In our view, because the topic is very important, the behavior was especially bad.
To watch the full Morning Joe discussion, you can start by clicking here. For an essay in Slate by Rocah and Vance (and several others), you can just click this.
For more on this topic, you can peruse this news report from this morning's New York Times:
Accounts of Sexual Violence by Hamas Are Aired Amid Criticism of U.N.
When Hamas builds a military installation near a hospital and Israel attacks that military installation, that is a violation of international law by HAMAS. People should put the blame where it belongs.
ReplyDeleteIt is also a violation of international law by Israel.
Delete@7:19 I don't think you're correct. I think international law allows attacks on any enemy military installations.
DeleteNo, you can't bomb a hospital with women, children and elderly patients, some of cannot be moved, because you think the enemy is using it for military purposes also.
DeleteIt is a violation of law for Hamas to use human shields.
DeleteSome actual quotes from international law
Delete4. [T]hose who plan or decide upon an attack shall: (i) do everything feasible to verify that the objectives to be attacked are neither civilians nor civilian objects and are not subject to special protection but are military objectives … and that it is not prohibited by the provisions of this Protocol to attack them. API, Article 57(2)(a)(i). Each party to the conflict must do everything feasible to verify that targets are military objectives. Rule 16, CIL Study.
5. Making the civilian population or individual civilians the object of attack is a war crime, regardless of conflict classification.
As I read #4, it doesn't prohibit attacking areas where civilians might be harmed. It does require doing everything feasible to make sure that the target is a valid military objective.
Obviously using a population as human shields is prohibited by #5. Although this is obvious, I hear less criticism of Hamas for using human shields than criticism of Israel for attacking military objectives located amid human shields.
It is a violation of law for Hamas to use human shields. Yes, and it is despicable and cowardly. But you don't kill the hostage to get the criminal, Dirty Harry.
DeleteAbove comment from David in Cal
ReplyDeleteThank you for the comment David. That makes sense.
DeleteJayapal is hitting the news programs in order to be a moderating voice on behalf of the Palestinians and to highlight their plight as being the instigation for the horrible violence of Hamas. As a journo, Bash has every reason to broach the subject of Hamas raping women in this context.
ReplyDeleteWhen Jayapal stated, “I think we have to be balanced about bringing in the outrages against Palestinians”, she opened herself up to the criticism that she was turning rape into quid pro quo warfare.
Military conflicts are nasty. People, innocents, die. But what a hideous politicalization of this sort of violence.
By Hamas.
DeleteI did not see either interview, but knowing the strengths and weaknesses of the Morning Joe Show, Bob is quite credible here.
ReplyDeleteAtrocity stories always fuel wartime propaganda, including rape, but the U.N. is being pressured to respond to this and hopefully we will have some specific and reliable information on soon.
Bill Maher should now be notorious for this sort of baiting of “progressive women.”
You’re welcome, Bob.
ReplyDeleteNoncombatant women should not be raped as an act of war. It is akin to torture. Jayapal should not be reticent to say so.
ReplyDeleteFemale soldiers shouldn't be raped, either. No-one should be subjected to sexual violence.
DeleteAgree
DeleteIt is within Jayapal's power to make it very clear how she feels about rape of Israeli women by Hamas. There should be no doubt where she stands. That Somerby has the room to blame Morning Joe and Bash for being unclear about her position, is Jayapal's fault, not the fault of journalists who are reporting news, not making it.
ReplyDeleteJayapal is on the hotseat because she has been pro-Palestinian and thus has a conflict between her support for women and her support for Palestinians (if not exactly Hamas). There is no leeway to excuse Hamas using historical wrongs when it comes to sexually assaulting both Israeli women and hostages as an act of war.
I would have thought that observers would use beheading babies as a bridge too far, but Jayapal seems to be unable to strongly communicate that rape is wrong, and that is not good for a progressive politician.
Somerby chooses to criticize Bash and Morning Joe and he accuses Mika of pretending to be "puzzled," instead of going to the heart of the problem, which is that Jayapal has not made an unequivocal statement of opposition to rape, even when Hamas does it.
Somerby has the nerve to hint that maybe Hamas didn’t actually rape anyone, that accusations are disinformation. That is despicable on Somerby’s part. But this isn’t the first time he’s gone to bat for rapists (Brock Turner, Donald Trump), accused rapists (Roy Moore), and rapist-sympathizers like Jayapal.
ReplyDeleteAnonymouse 7:02pm, when did Bob hint that claims of rape perpetrated by Hamas may be unfounded?
DeleteI’ve only seen your anonymous pals doing that.
All of Hamas's conduct should be investigated. Some of these accusations may be true, some may be false.
DeleteHe refers to the sexual violence as having “apparently” occurred on 10/7, after just previously asking “was her statement accurate?” He then says “We thought Bash's statement that Israeli soldiers aren't raping Palestinian women was especially strange.”
DeleteThere is no reason why someone not violating international law would be considered strange unless Somerby is questioning the accuracy of the statement.
Then Somerby says “Also, it's easy to engage in highly performative red-faced spouting on blue tribe "cable news" programs.” Performative means false.
Somerby will never say he thinks Hamas didn’t rape Israeli women, but he is working hard here to imply that the accusations are false, another reason why media is being unfair to Jayapal. Jayapal herself is not claiming there were no rapes, only suggesting Israel deserves it, even if the women do not.
It is routine for pro-Palestinian groups to say that accusations of brutality are just Israeli propaganda. The US govt and the UN have verified the brutality.
DeleteAnonymouse 8:47pm, Somerby said this on behalf of progressive women:
Delete“Beyond that, we think Bash was possibly being a bit careless in her sweeping initial complaint about the alleged conduct of "a lot of progressive women, generally speaking."
Was her statement accurate? Have "a lot of progressive women, generally speaking," refused to discuss the sexual violence which apparently occurred on October 7—the sexual violence which may still be occurring in the case of female captives of Hamas?
Have "a lot of progressive women, generally speaking," really refused to do that? It's easy to make such sweeping claims, but it isn't a great form of journalism.
Bash gave no specific examples. As the conversation continued, it seems to us that Jayapal's subsequent statements made more sense than Bash's. We thought Bash's statement that Israeli soldiers aren't raping Palestinian women was especially strange.”
Bob says that Bash never ties down Jayapal as to exactly when and what she claims to have stated as to militarized rape.
He goes on to say that Bash never offers up proof that liberal women in general are downplaying these rapes.
Bob then says he found Bash’s remarks as to Israeli soldiers not raping women, especially strange. Perhaps strange within the context of bombing the hell out of Palestinian women?
I’d say that your guess is as good mine, but that statement would be an outright falsehood. Your guesses are rife with prejudice.
Ironically, your biggest contenders are the anonymices with whom you have plotted and worked.
This doesn’t address Somerby’s hints that the rapes may not have happened. You address only the superficial discussion of Jayapal.
DeleteAnonymouse 9:39pm, I can be convinced.
DeleteQuote a “hint”.
I did, @8:46
DeleteSomeone violating international law is typically considered normal, provided that Somerby is affirming the accuracy of the statement.
DeleteBob: “Was her statement accurate? Have "a lot of progressive women, generally speaking," refused to discuss the sexual violence which apparently occurred on October 7—the sexual violence which may still be occurring in the case of female captives of Hamas?”
DeleteCambridge Dictionary:
***apparently
adverb
US /əˈpær·É™nt·li, -ˈper-/
according to what seems to be true or what is likely, based on what you know:
The computer trouble was apparently caused by a programming error.****
You have your fellow liberal annonymices saying that they won’t buy claims of rape by Hamas until it’s cleared with the UN, but Bob saying “apparently” is what you find horrifying?
Got to hand it to you. You sure keep your eye on the prize. Digby must be proud.
There is nothing uncertain about those rape claims so someone introducing uncertainty has an axe to grind. Somerby is pro-Palestinian so this gratuitous comment introduces doubt that does not exist.
DeleteI am not one of any group saying they don’t buy rape claims. I am saying Hamas is scum and so is someone who defends them, including Somerby.
Anonymouse 10:11pm, you’re not denouncing or even arguing with anonymices who expressly demand U.N. backing for rape claims.
DeleteYou’re going after Bob for saying “apparently”
Get out of town. No one takes you seriously.
Somerby is (1) defending Jayapal, a proPalestinian advocate, and (2) hinting that Hamas did not brutally rape and kill Israeli women on 10/7. Somerby’s sneaky hints are offensive too because of the tendency to disbelieve rape claims by women, not simply because Hamas is a hateful terrorist group.
DeleteI am criticizing Somerby for being a fucking misogynist and anti-semite.
Anonymouse 10:34pm, Bob defended progressive women as to Bash’s claim that they were ignoring or were on board with rape.
DeleteHe also bashed Bash over not pinning Jayapal down on when and where she had condemned Hamas terrorists rapists.
But apparently “apparently” is all you have for your denunciations of him. End of story.
You always want the last word, even when you have nothing to say.
DeleteAnonymouse 10:58pm, Bob’s rape denialism is so sneaky that it’s nonexistent and thus must be bolstered by allusions to some historic rape denialism.
DeleteNothing to say, huh?
Somerby does not know whether Hamas raped anyone (and neither do you.). The fog of war is thick with lies (think Iraq). But by saying “apparent acts of sexual violence,” Somerby is signaling that he believes the reports that Hamas raped women are true.
Delete"...anonymices who expressly demand U.N. backing for rape claims"
DeleteActually, I didn't demand "U.N. backing". I said "independent investigation". You brought up the UN. A UN investigation may or may not be impartial.
Moreover, I did not demand anything. I just noted that without an independent investigation all that pompous outrage of yours is unwarranted. And it is. In my opinion.
Anonymouse 3:42am, I have no outrage as to your demanding evidence from any investigative body as to Hamas raping women. I think it is overwhelmingly clear that Hamas did rape women, but I couldn’t care less whether you need some authoritative body confirming it. However, I’m not sure you’ll believe it then either.
DeleteYour fellow anonymouse, with selective outrage that only goes in one direction is who I’m criticizing. The fact that going after you is not in her job description makes her pose even more dishonest.
"that Hamas did rape women"
DeleteHamas is an organization representing a political movement. As such, I don't think it's physically capable of raping women. If Tara Reade was raped in 1993, she wasn't raped by the Democratic party.
As for whether any Hamas militia fighters did or did not rape any women during the so-called "operation Al-Aqsa Flood" -- I have no idea. Afaik, typically Muslim culture does not tolerate rape, but I'm sure shit happens. What I do know, however, is that the opponents of Hamas are very much interested in accusing Hamas of all kinds of atrocities, to 'justify' (sort of) their own atrocities. That's all. It's not complicated. Common sense, like I said.
I haven’t seen any dead bodies personally so I don’t know if Hamas military members killed anyone. That is probably all propaganda too. The same applies to Israel so we don’t even know there is a war. For that matter, neither Gaza nor Israel exist because there’s no verification there.
DeleteI've always treasured Bash.
ReplyDeleteWe reiterate that we condemn all sexual violence. We are Corby and Korbi.
ReplyDeleteAnyone else surprised that Speaker of the House, Mike Johnson, wants to shield Antifa from January 6th insurrection charges?
ReplyDeleteThere was photo on the internet yesterday, showing Mike Johnson wearing an "I (Heart) Antifa" button on his lapel.
DeleteJayapuke ain't nuthin' but shit and neither ru.
ReplyDelete