THE 77 PERCENT CONFUSION: A famous statistic!

MONDAY, APRIL 14, 2014

Part 1—Three unflattering lessons: Over the weekend, a famous statistic got lots of play in America’s leading newspapers.

On Saturday morning, the Washington Post ran a mordant cartoon by the mordant cartoonist Margulies:

In the cartoon, a TV screen announces the fact that Stephen Colbert will replace David Letterman. A TV viewer is shown saying this:

“CBS could have gotten Tina Fey for 77 percent of what he’s getting!”

In this way, a famous statistic was reinforced again. The cartoon’s message was obvious and quite familiar: Women get paid 77 percent of what men get paid for doing the same darn work!

On Sunday morning, major pushback appeared against this familiar claim.

In that same hard-copy Washington Post, an opinion column by Ruth Marcus attacked “Democrats’ revolting equal-pay demagoguery.” While saying she’d vote for the Equal Pay Act, Marcus also said this:

“Unequal pay remains a problem, although not at the women-earn-77-cents-on-the-dollar level of Democrats’ sloganeering.”

Elsewhere in Sunday’s hard-copy Post, the weekly Fact Checker column awarded Two Pinocchios to Obama for his recent use of the familiar statistic. On line, the column ran beneath this headline:

“Democrats ‘77 cent’ claim on wage gap is as misleading as it is persistent”

Glenn Kessler said he had been “tempted to go one step further to Three Pinocchios.” In our view, he should have done so.

Frank Bruni completed the rule of three in Sunday’s New York Times. In an opinion column, Bruni criticized Obama’s recent use of the famous statistic:
BRUNI (4/13/14): ...President Obama practiced the timeless political art of oversimplification, reducing a messy reality into a tidy figure and saying that working women make only 77 cents for every dollar that working men earn. He left the impression that this was principally the consequence of direct discrimination in the form of unequal pay for the same job.

Some of it is, and that’s flatly unacceptable.

But most of it isn’t. And the misuse of the 77-cent statistic could actually hurt the important cause of giving women a fair shake, because it allows people who don’t value that goal a way to discredit those of us who do, and because it gives short shrift to dynamics that must be a part of any meaningful, truthful, constructive discussion.
As he continued, Bruni created confusion about a similar statistic. “Among younger women, many of whom have yet to hit that pause button, the hourly ‘wage gap’ is 93 cents on the dollar,” he said, referring to a recent study by Pew.

In comments, some readers conveyed the (understandable) impression that Bruni was offering 7 cents as a more accurate measure of wage discrimination, as opposed to the familiar, inaccurate figure of 23 cents on the dollar.

Whatever the realties may be for younger women in the workplace, the Pew statistic Bruni cited is not intended as a measure of wage discrimination. As he tried to address pre-existing confusion, Bruni created more of the same.

As compared to men, how much are women paid for doing the same or equal work? The question is hard to answer, in part because so many people seem to be creating so much confusion on purpose.

But the famous 77 cent statistic has been peddled for many years, almost always by liberals and Democrats. The statistic is widely misunderstood, in a way which paints an unfortunate picture of our public discourse.

What can we learn about ourselves from the confusion surrounding this famous statistic? All week long, we will explore three unflattering lessons:

The intellectual impoverishment of our public discourse: It isn’t hard to explain what the famous “77 cent” statistic actually means.

That said, the intellectual level of our nation’s public discourse is extremely low. Within our low-IQ discourse, few things veer get explained.

For decades, our discourse has been driven by bogus claims about a wide array of topics. During that period, our press corps has been unable, or unwilling to debunk familiar bogus claims, most of which have come from the right.

In recent weeks, journalists and intellectuals have had enormous problems explaining this new statistic. We live in a very low-IQ culture. The widespread confusion about this statistic is the latest sign.

The lack of will among major news orgs: Quite often, journalists and professors seem to be unable to explain the simplest statistics. But a second problem lurks—our big newspapers often refuse to accept such challenges.

Yesterday, two opinion writers challenged this famous statistic. So did the Washington Post’s Kessler, in the once-a-week “ghetto for facts” the hard-copy Post has established.

That said, the New York Times still hasn’t presented a news report or news analysis which attempts to explain this famous statistic. The news division of the Times continues to take a pass.

In its news pages, the Times has engaged in familiar “he said/he said” treatment of this highly significant matter. The paper quotes dueling statements by partisan figures about this famous statistic.

Its “economics reporters” make no attempt to clarify the matter. See our previous report.

“Liberal” and Democratic impotence: The confusion surrounding this statistic shows the moral and intellectual bankruptcy of the contemporary “liberal world.” By far, this is the most important lesson we can draw from this latest statistical gong-show.

It’s obvious why the Democratic Party has been promoting confusion about this famous statistic. In this year’s midterm election, it needs a heavy turn-out among young woman voters.

Rather plainly, the party is trying to gin up interest through the use of bogus statistical claims. In this way, the party announces a highly unflattering but obvious fact—it knows of no legitimate way to appeal to American voters.

This is a remarkable fact about the modern word. We live at a time of massive looting by the so-called “one percent,” which is really the 0.1 percent. The entire nation, red and blue, is subject to this looting.

In a rational world, this would present a rich array of political targets for Democrats and liberals. Instead, Obama feels forced to sow confusion about a statistic he knows is misleading. And Rachel Maddow has played the much larger fool/demagogue on her inane TV program.

Our view? In the last week, Maddow firmly established herself as one of the most disingenuous performers in the modern “news” business. But corporate millionaire liberals like Maddow seem to know of no honest ways to make their case to the wider public, even as the plutocrats loot the entire nation, red as well as blue.

In this target-rich environment, Obama seems to be left with nothing to say; Maddow is baldly deceiving her viewers. This helps us see the remarkable impotence of the establishment liberal world.

That famous statistic isn’t hard to explain. It isn’t hard to explain the widespread looting (of red and blue) which defines our world.

But people like Maddow don’t know how to talk to the public, except for a narrow band of rubes whom they may seek to mislead. In our view, Maddow disgraced herself last week as she clowned about this familiar statistic.

A TV star clowned and played the fool. But then, what else is new?

Tomorrow: What the statistic means

60 comments:

  1. In this "target-rich environment," the targets are the ones who donate to campaigns and parties. I guess no one wants to rock that boat by pointing out that they are the ones benefitting from the various social problems that liberals traditionally have addressed.

    Some women, myself included, don't mind that the statistic being presented is inaccurate. We so rarely have any attention focused on this issue at all. It seems wrong that when it is finally raised, it results in a protracted battle over the accuracy of statistics, not the fairness of our workplace.

    During Obama's two presidential campaigns, an implicit promise was made that if women set aside their own aspirations so that liberals could pursue racial justice, their issues would be addressed within Obama's presidential agenda. That has not occurred. Now, Somerby suggests that women's employment needs are only being raised cynically, to bolster the Democratic coalition during the midterms. I will not be supporting candidates without a meaningful track record on women's issues. One reason I am hoping Hillary Clinton will run in 2016 is that she is one of the few politicians for whom fairness for women is not an afterthought or a stepping stone to some other goal.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "Some women, myself included, don't mind that the statistic being presented is inaccurate."

      What a sad response, from a misguided person who admits that they don't care about facts. I guess everybody wants to be a "low information" voter now...

      Delete
    2. OK, pick out the sentence you want to argue against.

      But please don't ignore this one which is spot on:

      "It seems wrong that when it is finally raised, it results in a protracted battle over the accuracy of statistics, not the fairness of our workplace."

      Delete
    3. The person admitted that they didn't care that an inaccurate statistic was being used, one that is agreed by a wide-rage of people that is wrong. I find that sad.

      If you don't want people to be distracted from an important issue (the difference in pay between men and women) by inaccurate statistics, then don't use inaccurate statistics!

      Delete
    4. Oh, I forgot. In setting standards of absolute perfection from MSNBC hosts and NY Times op-edders, we must now demand the same of combox commenters.

      Like Somerby himself does, that gives us license to pick the one sentence we can rail about, and ignore everything else and it's all the commenters fault for distracting us.

      And Somerby wonders what is happening to American discourse?

      Try this sometime. Listen first, then react. And instead of finding the Ah Ha! sentence then rushing to the combox, listen all that another person has to say. Then react.

      And above all else, don't pretend you have the right to lecture to anybody else about how to express themselves in ways you find pleasing.

      Delete
    5. Is it an "standard of absolute perfection" to ask that people not use a statistic that everyone agrees is wrong? I think it's a basic standard of fairness and accuracy. Everything else in the above comment is handwaving and distraction.

      Delete
    6. It is not the stat that is wrong, it is the implication that it measures a gap in pay for equal work in the same job. The fact of discrimination against women in the workplace is well established and deserves discussion.

      Delete
    7. "Some women, myself included, don't mind that the statistic being presented is inaccurate. We so rarely have any attention focused on this issue at all. It seems wrong that when it is finally raised, it results in a protracted battle over the accuracy of statistics, not the fairness of our workplace."

      Holy crap! Did she really write that?! "[R]arely have any attention focused on this issue..." If that's true, how come everybody and his sister knows the 77-cents-to-the-dollar stat? Seriously, how deluded can one get?

      Also, the anonymous feminist here conspicuously fails to address the obvious issue of how can we properly address the pay gap unless we actually know how bad it really is and what is actually causing it.

      Polls show that even women don't like feminists very much. Pretty much nobody does except other feminists, many of whom have no idea that this is true because, like the good cult members that they are, the only people they talk to are other feminists.

      Feminists are abusive victimization mongers who habitually use bogus statistics to try and coerce others into getting what they want. And they are such man-hating boneheads that they couldn't even get a straight-ahead case of false rape accusation like Duke Lacrosse right while also screaming that the people who were eventually proven to be correctly skeptical were "rape apologists." In a sane world with a functioning news media and political culture they would, by this point, have zero credibility. Feminists are idiots.

      Feminists destroy everything they touch including, sadly, liberalism.

      Now please excuse me while I go out and sexually assault a lady senator. Got to keep up the patriarchal rape culture, you know.

      Delete
    8. Just want to make it clear that I regard myself as a feminist, and that the pay gap between men and women who do similar work with similar experience is a problem that is important and needs to be addressed. I am merely objecting to the use of an inaccurate statistic.

      Delete
    9. The statistic is perfectly accurate. The only thing Somerby harps upon is WHY there is such a gap, and it can't all be blamed on discrimination against women.

      And he does that to hijack any discussion at all about the pay gap between men and women.

      Delete
    10. I also note that Somerby is now applying the Somerby Rules of Perfection to poltical cartoonists as well, lest they join MSNBC hosts, NY Times op-edders in bringing down Western Civilization.

      Delete
    11. Again, the tactic Somerby uses in any discussion about the wage gap between men and women is exactly the same as the tactics used by global warming deniers -- at least those who don't deny the undeniable.

      Sure, the earth is warming, they say. But how much of it is due to sun spots? How much to volcano eruptions? How much is just natural cycles that have occurred for thousands of years?

      Until you isolate those factors, they say, then the problem might not be so bad after all, and human activity might have very little to do with it. So don't talk to me about all this "green" stuff.

      Delete
    12. Let me ask you a question, Anonymous at 11:45 AM. You admit that feminists have been misleading the public about the reasons for the wage gap and yet you complain that Bob, by correctly pointing this out is an attempt to "hijack" the discussion.

      But the whole point of Bob's blog is to show how intellectually corrupt and inaccurate our national discourse is.

      If feminists are responsible for creating the confusion--and they most certainly are--and Democrats stupidly go along with this bupkis, how is Bob actually wrong by pointing out the ridiculous dysfunctionality of what's happening? Please explain. I would love to see your justification on that.

      Delete
    13. Wow. The supidity just keeps on rolling in.

      Anonymous at 12:08,

      Global warming is a demonstrably real problem that may wipe out western civilization. Unlike the wage gap, experts agree that it is real and getting worse.

      The wage gap as described by feminists and Democrats on the other hand, instead of getting bigger when examined by outsiders keeps getting smaller.

      Hence, your comparison makes no sense.

      Delete
    14. HB,
      Didn't you do the same exact thing last week that you're complaining about today? Because you think your main point is true, we need to ignore the fact that you claimed garbage women make the exact same pay as garbage men even though you admitted you have nothing to back-up that claim.

      Delete
    15. HB, I know this is difficult for you to comprehend, but try.

      I am not, nor never have, compared the wage gap to global warming. Thus it is quite foolish of you to say that since one is getting better while the other is getting worse, the analogy doesn't hold.

      Now again, I'll try to use simpler words this time. Both the global warming deniers and the wage gap deniers are using the same TACTICS OF ARGUMENTATION (does putting it in all caps help?) by trying to explain away the undeniable.

      By the way, 12:47, you got HB's previous argument slightly wrong. He actually claimed that women make less money than men because they won't take those high-paying garbage man gigs. Or roofing jobs.

      That's where men really make the big bucks.


      Delete
    16. By the way, as Somerby continues to beat this horse and accuse those who cite a perfectly accurate statistic of "misleading" and "pandering to voters," what did he say when his good buddy Al Gore was citing the perfectly accurate 73 percent statistic during the 2000 campaign?

      Was Gore deliberately misleading voters and pandering to women?

      Delete
    17. Anonymous at 12:47

      As I pointed out before making an excruciatingly simple-to-understand point that I was using garbage men as an example and that there is ZERO EVIDENCE to show that female sanitation workers make less than their male counterparts. This if, what feminists claim is true--that women working the same jobs doing the exact same jobs got on 77% of what men get--THERE WOULD BE A MOUNTAIN OF EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT IT.

      But guess what? THAT MOUNTAIN DOES NOT EXIST!

      Therefore, the feminist claim is false.

      I also asked you to prove your case. You haven't done that. You're not going to do that because your claim is bullshit.

      Anonymous at 12:59

      Oh, I got you just fine. Its just that your tactics of argumentation argument does not hold water. There is nothing at all wrong with trying to poke holes in an argument in a legitimate attempt to see if said argument can stand up to scrutiny vs distracting people with a propaganda campaign of nitpicking. There problem here is that you simply lack the wit to see the difference.

      But maybe I'm wrong. So why don't you explain why the criticism of women-get-paid-77%-of-men-for-doing-the-same-work is wrong. Show that the feminist argument is true.

      Yes, do that. If you can.

      Otherwise, I advise shutting up.

      And roofers and garbagemen make more money than the types of jobs women gravitate to because they are dangerous jobs that wound and kill people and women don't want those jobs.

      Al Gore made that claim 14 years ago before anyone realized what a bunch of crap it was. Gore, unlike feminists has shown himself to be an honest--and heroic--purveyor of statistics and has conspicuously stopped making the claim. Therefore, Al Gore is a bad example.

      Delete
    18. HB,
      My claim is that on average women are paid 77 cents for every dollar that a man is paid. That statistic is a fact. You have shown nothing to prove this is not true. Instead, you make excuses for why this is so.
      You have also claimed worker pay is based on how hard someone works or how difficult there job is. There is absolutely no proof that this is true. If there was, there would be a mountain of evidence to support it.
      Show me that firemen make more money than Wall street traders. If you can't do that, please advise yourself.

      Delete
    19. HB,
      On average, how much more do coal miners get paid than the Sunday morning talk show hosts? Or are you saying the talk show hosts work harder at more difficult jobs.

      "Otherwise, I advise shutting up."
      Dr. Hieronymous Braintree, heal thyself.

      Delete
    20. Anonymous at 1:53 PM

      It appears to have weirdly escaped you attention and not escaped your attention that I never denied that a women working full time makes 77% of what a man working full time. I am denying the feminist claim that it's for doing the exact same work.

      I have previously stated some of the reasons for this. You can call them "excuses" is that make you feel better. Your claim, however, that there is no proof that women earn less for working less hard, dangerous and difficult jobs than men do (or make the same kinds of sacrifices) is the purest horse shit. There's even a book--a whole book!--entitled "Why Men Earn More" by Warren Farrell. He even did a youtube presentation which I invite you to watch.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb_6v-JQ13Q

      Firemen, of course, make less than Wall Street traders. (Though, considering what the bastards knowingly have done to the county, I prefer to call them Wall Street traitors.) But the qualifications in terms of education and IQ required to become a Wall Street traders are much much higher that the qualifications to become a fireman. Far fewer people therefore are able to be the former than the latter. Also Wall Streets are devoted to making money as opposed to saving lives. Obviously then Wall Street traders are going to make a lot more money than firemen.

      All of which should have been obvious to you if you had actually used your brain which you so obviously did not.

      And I am done with you, my crushed little pigeon as I have work to do.

      CHEERS.

      Delete
    21. "And roofers and garbagemen make more money than the types of jobs women gravitate to because they are dangerous jobs that wound and kill people and women don't want those jobs."

      Yep, if only more women would take those high-paying garbage collecting and roofing gigs, the wage gap would disappear!

      And just when I think Heirnoymous couldn't possibly say anything more stupid, he once again proves me wrong!

      Delete
    22. "Al Gore made that claim 14 years ago before anyone realized what a bunch of crap it was."

      News flash for you, HB. JFK made the same claim 40 years before Gore did, and the wage-gap deniers said the same damned things --- "Well, gee whillikers! Women don't do the same jobs. They just make less money at the ones they have."

      Delete
    23. Anonymous at 2:08,

      I never claimed that the fact that men tend to take the more dangerous jobs than women was the ONLY FACTOR. No. ONLY THAT IT WAS A (e.g. ONE) FACTOR.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb_6v-JQ13Q

      Other factors,

      Men work more hours.
      Men are willing to make longer commutes.
      Men take less existentially satisfying job.
      Men take greater risks such as volunteering for difficult assignments.

      This was explained in other threads.

      You have done nothing to prove your case. You've just insisted I'm wrong while making stupid nit picks.

      If the feminists claim were true--the claim that women only get 77% of what men do for the same job--THERE WOULD BE A MOUNTAIN OF EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT IT.

      THERE IS NO MOUNTAIN BECAUSE THE CLAIM IS FALSE!

      Deal with it.

      Delete
    24. HB,
      So you are saying how we value the work of men vis-a-vis how we value the work of women is a big piece of the difference in pay.
      I knew it was only a matter of time before you'd prove your feminist bona fides.

      Delete
    25. Don't you get it, 2:36? Men garbage collectors and roofers deserve to make more money than female nurses and elementary school teachers because their jobs are far more dangerous.

      Delete
    26. More than 70% of women are in service/retail jobs. In what way are these jobs more existentially satisfying? Want fries with that? Now send 50 copies to each of our branch offices before you go to lunch.

      Women are found in every single job classification in the Dictionary of Occupation Titles. They are systematically kept out of the better paying ones using unfair tactics, not least physical violence and intimidation. Women are successful at dangerous and physical jobs, including police officer, fire fighter, forestry worker, military, truck driver (including loading), and so on, because they use the same protective equipment and assistive devices to do those jobs as men do. They handle stress and deal with crises as well as men do.

      Calling women derogatory names, such as feminist, is one of the ways used to deter them from competing with men for better-paying positions. It is part of the routine hazing that happens when women try to enter a male-dominated field. It goes along with lesbian (as a negative label), castrating bitch, c*** and a bunch of other unpleasant names, all of which were applied to Hillary Clinton when she applied for the non-traditional job now held by Obama.

      Delete
    27. The gender wage gap exists across all racial, educational and professional lines. Hispanic women make less than Hispanic men. Female PhDs earn less than male PhDs, Female physicians make less than male physicians.

      And the gap grows wider with age, regardless of race, educational level or profession.

      Instead of trying to explain it away, why can't Somerby admit it exists, and it is persistent?

      The only possible reason I can imagine: It wouldn't be as much fun as to bash all those "pseudo-liberals" for lying.

      Delete
    28. "Men work more hours."

      How many more hours to men work than women?

      "Men are willing to make longer commutes."

      How much longer are the commutes of men than the commutes of women?

      "Men take less existentially satisfying job."

      What jobs are we talking about hand how much better do these less existentially satisfy jobs pay?

      "Men take greater risks such as volunteering for difficult assignments."

      What are these assignments men volunteer for that women won't?

      Delete
    29. Men do far less housework and child care than women.

      Men can make those commutes because they are much less likely to cook dinner, take kids to school in the morning, and because their freedom is not restricted by an objecting spouse.

      The large majority of women work for the same reason men do, because their salaries are needed to support the family. It now takes two salaries to support most households. That means women do not have the luxury to take existentially satisfying job (presumably a euphemism for rewarding but low paying work, such as teaching or social work). The assumption is that women's work must be existentially satisfying to them, but has anyone asked them whether that is true?

      Men are offered opportunities to take on difficult assignments more often than women and they thus get more of a chance for visibility and promotion, to develop skills, and to compete in the workplace. Women are not told such assignments exist, much less offered them (and refuse). Women are often assigned to a mommy track (whether they wish to be or not) and assumed to be uninterested in difficult assignments.

      If you want to see what it is like for women in most high level jobs, read The Confidence Men and pay special attention to what happened to Sheila Bair.

      Delete
  2. When I heard of the Marcus column, I was shocked to learn that politics was going on in Washington during an election year.

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  3. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  4. I would like to announce to everyone that I am now in favor of global warming precisely because of the very real possibility that it could wipe out civilization. Clearly, our species is not worth saving. And since extinction is ultimately inevitable anyway why not get things over with sooner?

    Besides, I hear that children, especially girls, are just yummy.

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  5. The so-called mordant cartoon by the mordant cartoonist whose name is below, about the pay gap was also published in the LA Times and Atlanta Journal Constitution two days after being in The Washington Post

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  6. "The cartoon’s message was obvious and quite familiar: Women get paid 77 percent of what men get paid for doing the same darn work!"

    I recall a politician years ago saying something about his mother signing him to sleep with a union song that was written years after he was born.

    There was a blogger back then who noted how ridiculous it was for said politician's opponents to take an obvious joke far too literally and use it to call the politician a liar.

    Too bad we don't have bloggers like that around any more.

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    Replies
    1. "singing him to sleep" of course.

      Delete
  7. HB said: "I am denying the feminist claim that it's for doing the exact same work."

    HB passionately believes this is so, but I doubt he can come up with a single example. Everyone has always known that it's an average only. So what? Nobody has ever believed the figure applies "for the same work," and that included Rachel Maddow on the famous "Meet the Press" show that launched a thousand rips.

    This overall figure has been reported by the Department of Labor for at least 35 years. It has gradually closed, and nobody ever questioned the figure itself until last year. When the conservative on the show cticized Maddow for saying there is still discrimination in the workplace and used that figure that always had been non-controversial, as night follows day Somerby took the side of the conservative against Maddow. Not, mind you, on the contention that there is still discrimination -- or else he would have to throw in his history as a progressive -- but by a cleverer strategem: claiming, falsely, that she made a claim about the 77% figure she never did.

    Notice that TDH never comes up with an alternative that captures what the 77% figure says.

    By the way, it looks like the 77% is out-of-date now. It's 81% as of 2012.

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    Replies
    1. I wonder how unemployment is factored into that figure. My understanding is that because women tend to work more in public jobs (because there is less hiring discrimination and thus more opportunity), they have been differentially affected by the financial meltdown. I don't think that sector of the economy has been rehiring people. Women always have lower unemployment than men (because they have higher education), but if there were a way to figure in the salaries that are not being earned due to long-term unemployment, what would the gap look like?

      Also, I have been hearing that during the recession good jobs have been eliminated and replaced by lower paying ones. Might the gap be narrowing because men are being less well paid, not because women are being better paid in relation to them? Have men's salaries decreased more than women's rather than women's salaries increased more than men's?

      Delete
  8. By the way, on average African-American women make 84% of what white women make. I wonder if The Howler would squeal on and on claiming that any time anyone used that figure it would be implying that it meant for equal work? I've got the answer, however. If Maddow said that, an angle for attack would be found -- probably that she was dropping the R-bomb.

    P.S. Why does The Howler not understand how to use the phrase, "that said"?

    ReplyDelete

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  12. JOIN THE ILLUMINATI FROM SOUTH AFRICA, USA, OR ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD TODAY BE RICH, FAME, AND POSSES POWER.email us on illuminatisatanictemple@aim.com OR call us on +27620171252 for immediate initiation New members registration is now open online now !!!!! BENEFITS GIVEN TO NEW MEMBERS WHO JOIN ILLUMINATI. A Cash Reward of USD $300,000 USD A New Sleek Dream CAR valued at USD $120,000 USD A Dream House bought in the country of your own choice One Month holiday (fully paid) to your dream tourist destination. One year Golf Membership package A V.I.P treatment in all Airports in the World A total Lifestyle change Access to Bohemian Grove Monthly payment of $1,000,000 USD into your bank account every month as a member One Month booked Appointment with Top 5 world Leaders and Top 5 Celebrities in the World. If you are interested call the agent now +27620171252 or send your e-mail to illuminatsatanictemple@gmail.com for immediately initiation.New members registration is now open online

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  13. I want to share a great testimony on this website on how great Priest Babaka help me in falling pregnant,me and my husband have been trying to have a baby for over 4years,but they where no luck so we decided to contact the family doctor and after all the test have been done,he said to us that my fallopian tube is not functioning.then one day i was in the office when a friend of mine who have the same problem with me, fall pregnant after she contacted Priest Babaka .she directed me to him and when i contacted him through his email and he did the purification on the pregnancy spell and in 2weeks time i was feeling some how and i went to meet the family doctor who told me that i am pregnant.if you know that you have a similar problem like this, or any fertility issue and you want to be pregnant you can contact Priest Babaka via Email:babaka.wolf@gmail.com or his facebook on Babaka Wolf

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  18. My name is Camille bruno Valdez my partner and I have been trying for a baby for over two years now, We were going to a fertility clinic for about 5 months before somebody told us to contact this spell caster who is so powerful, We contacted him at this email; arewaspecialistttemple@gmail.com , for him to help us, then we told him our problem, he told us that we will either conceive in February 2014 or March 2014,but after two years of trying we were at a point where we were willing to try anything. And I'm glad we came to Dr Dahiru, Because his pregnancy spell cast put us at ease, and I honestly believe him, and his gods really helped us as well, I am thankful for all he has done. contact him via email: arewaspecialistttemple@gmail.com if you are trying to get a baby or want your lover back. he has powers to do it, he has done mine,

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