State and City both: Why does New York State lead the nation, or allegedly lead the nation, when it comes to the prevalence of racially unbalanced public schools?
Everyone knows the answer to that question. But the answer was never the point.
According to leading anthropologists, the point lay in the heightened ability to promulgate our treasured Liberal Scold Culture. We refer to the fairly obvious point of the Civil Rights Project's 2014 report, in which two scolding scholars declared that "New York [State] has the most segregated schools in the country."
The basic point of this pleasing claim was lodged in its terminology. The scholars referred to "segregation," not to "racial imbalance" or to "racial isolation."
Schools which once would have been "all black" were now "apartheid schools." "The species was wired for choices like that," several top experts have told us.
That said, the basic point of the professors' claim was also lodged in a bit of tribally pleasing geography. When "New York" turned out to be most heinous of all, it set scold hearts afire. Here's what we mean by that:
When the professors' rambling, overstuffed, lazy report was released in March 2014, The Daily Beast didn't seem especially clear about what it actually said.
At the Huffington Post, Joy Resmovitz was more clear about the report's basic claim—but she very plainly got the professors' basic point. Headline included, this is the way the Huffington Post framed the report's basic message:
RESMOVITZ (3/26/14): The Nation’s Most Segregated Schools Aren’t Where You’d Think They’d BeSo cool! The nation's most "segregated" schools weren't in the Deep South at all! They were actually found in [the state of] New York, Resmovitz deliciously said.
The nation’s most segregated schools aren’t in the deep south—they’re in New York, according to a report released Tuesday by the University of California, Los Angeles’ Civil Rights Project.
That means that in 2009, black and Latino students in New York “had the highest concentration in intensely-segregated public schools,” in which white students made up less than 10 percent of enrollment and “the lowest exposure to white students,” wrote John Kucsera, a UCLA researcher, and Gary Orfield, a UCLA professor and the project’s director. “For several decades, the state has been more segregated for blacks than any Southern state, though the South has a much higher percent of African American students,” the authors wrote. The report, “New York State’s Extreme School Segregation,” looked at 60 years of data up to 2010, from various demographics and other research.
Were we discussing the schools of New York State or the schools of New York City? The distinction became clear as Resmovitz continued, but that wasn't the basic point. The basic point involved the delicious claim that a bunch of high-minded Yankee liberals were the nation's biggest race villains, as opposed to the drooling, toothless racists traditionally found Down South.
Deliciously, Rebecca Klein extended the theme for HuffPo readers on April 1, 2016. Her delicious report appeared beneath these headlines that day, extending that wonderful point:
The South Isn’t The Reason Schools Are Still Segregated, New York IsSo cool! Within the realm of Progressive Scold Culture, the finding which emerged in 2014 had been a tribal godsend. It helped us make this scolding point:
New York City might be a liberal hub, but that doesn’t mean white parents want their children going to school with black kids.
These Yankee "liberals" are the true villains! Amerika has betrayed its promises in ways which go well beyond what Mother and Father said!
It felt so good to make this scolding point! According to future anthropologists, this reliable "scolding acts" continued right through the start of Mister Trump's Fully Inclusive War.
Was New York State really most heinous among the fifty states? To this day, we aren't entirely sure how Professors Kucsera and Orfield reached that pleasing conclusion.
As we showed you yesterday, it all depended on which of their ten thousand measures of "segregation" a person might choose to stress. When it came to black kids' attendance in "apartheid schools," for example, the most heinous states looked like this, according to the professors' data (click here, see page 46):
Percentage of black kids attending schools which were 99-100% nonwhite (2009-2010 school year):Was the heinous state of New York more heinous than Illinois? It all depended on which of the ten million beans the professors had counted you wanted to plant in your soil.
Black kids in Illinois: 41.4 percent
Black kids in Michigan: 34.1 percent
Black kids in New Jersey: 26.1 percent
Black kids in Tennessee: 25.9 percent
Black kids in New York State: 23.6 percent
Thanks to the UCLA professors' lazy, slipshod scholarship, we don't know the basis on which they said that New York State was worse than Illinois. In our view, UCLA should be embarrassed to see such lazy scholarship issued under its name on such an important topic.
That said, The Westwood Two's basic claim was a godsend for pseudo-progressive Scold Culture. Deliciously, we pseudo-progressives now got to complain about the phony liberals up north.
Professor Theoharis was still making this pleasing point in a fiery New York Times guest scold this past Martin Luther King Day. "Such was their burial of Hector, breaker of horses," future experts weirdly say.
The allegedly liberal state of New York was most heinous of all! The finding electrified Liberal Scold Culture, as did the professors' dispassionate use of such terms as "segregation" and "apartheid school." Indeed, the professors were so deep in their cups, they now defined "segregation" in such a way as to categorize this hypothetical glorious site as a "segregated school:"
Student enrollment, Public School SThat hellhole would be a "segregated school," Kucsera and Orfield declared. Despondently, rueful scholars despairingly say that this type of "scoldcentric behavior" helped bring on Mister Trump's War.
White kids: 40 percent
Black kids: 20 percent
Hispanic kids: 20 percent
Asian-American kids: 20 percent
The point of the professors' claim involved the gruesome hypocrisy of all modern Amerikans except themselves and their friends. That said, everyone knows why states like New York and Illinois have so many racially unbalanced schools, even if the professors made little attempt to explain.
In the case of New York State, you might want to recall a joking claim James Carville once made about Pennsylvania. On a political basis, the state was "Philadelphia and Pittsburgh with Alabama in between," the consultant jokingly said.
Demographically, the state of New York is somewhat similar. On a demographic basis, you might say that New York State is New York City and Buffalo, with Colorado in between—though we of course intend no insult to that western state.
Why does New York State have no many racially unbalanced schools? Duh! Let's split the (rather large) state into two parts. Let's consider New York City on the one hand, the rest of the state on the other.
New York City is home to the nation's largest school system. As of the 2010-2011 school year—a year for which Kucsera and Orfield produce mountains of data—that giant school system contained a walloping 36.5 percent of New York State's public school students!
That said, the student enrollment of that giant school system was heavily "nonwhite." That stood in stark contrast to the student enrollment of the rest of the (rather large) state.
Below, you see the data in question. These numbers come from the data-clogged 2014 report. Click here, see pages 34 and 56.
Simply put—and everyone knows this—there is no way to "integrate" the public schools of this (rather large) state in the soaring way we Liberal Scolds insist on imagining in our least insightful dreams:
Student enrollment, New York City, 2010-2011:Down in the southeastern corner of the state, New York City's public school kids were 85% "nonwhite." Across the rest of the rather large state, their counterparts were 71% white.
White kids: 141,105 (14.5%)
Black kids: 289,995 (29.8%)
Hispanic kids: 390,228 (40.1%)
Asian-American kids: 146,944 (15.1%)
(Total enrollment: 973,136)
Student enrollment, the rest of New York State, 2010-2011:
White kids: 1,196,956 (70.7%)
Black kids: 203,115 (12.0%)
Hispanic kids: 196,173 (11.6%)
Asian-American kids: 71,624 (4.2%)
(Total enrollment: 1,692,324)
Everybody understands the following basic point. Given that distribution of public school students, there is no way to "desegregate" the schools of this (rather large) state in the dull-witted way our "tribe of scolds" likes to imagine.
Don't misunderstand! There are plenty of "extra" white kids in the public schools found in many of New York State's 62 counties. But those counties may be hundreds of miles from New York City, whose public schools have plenty of "extra" nonwhite kids.
Given these geographic realities, there is no way to wave a magic wand and produce "desegregated" schools across this most heinous state. Meanwhile, stating the obvious:
The numbers Kucsera and Orfield like to cite are largely the result of the concentration of nonwhite kids in that one gigantic school system way down in the southeast corner of the state.
As we'll see next week, it would be possible to produce greater racial balance within New York City's public schools. But if you waved a magic wand and created perfect racial distribution across that city's schools, every school would be dangerously close to being "intensely segregated," according to the professors' definitions.
At any rate, there is no way to "desegregate" the public schools of New York State! The numbers the Civil Rights Project scolds us with are the result of student residential and enrollment patterns over which no one has any obvious control.
No, Elmira! You can't "bus" your way out of those rather well-known geographical realities. You can, of course, scold Amerika about such matters, thereby producing tribal delight but helping to fuel Mister Trump's Onrushing War.
Tomorrow: Stupid old Biden opposed it back then. No one supports it now!
Next week: The Times sets out to "integrate" the handful of children it likes
Why would an elderly white man living in Baltimore feel that it is tiresome being scolded about racial inequalities?ReplyDelete
I don't know -- it's a mystery.
If Somerby's premise that scolding produces votes for Trump were true, you would have expected NYC to vote for Trump.ReplyDelete
Here are the NAEP-like election results for NYC:
All of the boroughs went for Clinton by huge amounts of 75%-88% except Staten Island, which voted 57% for Trump.
Here is a description of school segregation on Staten Island:
But according to Somerby, liberals are just making up an excuse to scold and there are no racial problems that can be addressed in NYC schools.
How would Somerby know whether the Civil Rights Project at UCLA engages in lazy slipshod scholarship or not, when Somerby has never taken a statistics class, a social science class (sociology, anthropology), or a psychology class in his time at Harvard (or since)? Or if he did, he didn't go to lectures and never paid attention (by his own admission).ReplyDelete
How does it look when a fine old white gentleman from the South accuses black researchers of being lazy? Repeatedly. And slipshod, which means incompetent. What are the "optics" of that? And then complains about being scolded. All while claiming that entrenched racial problems can never be solved. How does that look?
Liberals have not given up on civil rights, not even Southern liberals. Al Gore, who was a Southern Democrat, didn't give up on civil rights. Somerby is no liberal now, if he ever was one. No liberal would argue that research is a waste of time because the problem, racial segregation (or inclusion vs isolation), is too difficult to address, so we should all stop measuring the magnitude of the problem and stop studying racial disparities. And anyone who disagrees is lazy and slipshod.
Somerby is not concerned with politics, he is on a personal journey to prove his worth. His life's mission is to convince others of his otherwise ignored talents. He uses pettifoggery to gaslight liberals because they have not bent the knee.Delete
omg he sounds like my ex wife
Why isn't Somerby arguing that Trump only meant he would take oppo research from foreign individuals, not foreign governments?ReplyDelete
"As we'll see next week, it would be possible to produce greater racial balance within New York City's public schools. But if you waved a magic wand and created perfect racial distribution across that city's schools, every school would be dangerously close to being "intensely segregated," according to the professors' definitions."ReplyDelete
According to Wikipedia, the only borough of NYC without enough white residents to make up desegregated schools is the Bronx, which has 29% white residents.
If there are insufficient white students in NYC, it is because white parents are not sending their kids to public schools. Charter schools and other private schools, and home-schooling, are diverting white kids from the schools attended by minority children. THAT is a problem that can be addressed. First, I suggest rolling back support for charter schools and requiring that minority kids be permitted to attend public schools. That will make them undesirable as havens of white flight and parents will stop spending the tuition fees on them. Once white kids return to public schools, the quality of the schools will improve because funding tends to follow the white student enrollment. It would also be a good idea to disallow home schooling, since few parents are qualified to teach their kids and the result is that they are doing online programs or group schooling that permit them to avoid mixing with diverse others (often on the basis of religion). That is bad for kids and bad for society. And, of course, school districts can be gerrymandered for diversity instead of to separate kids racially.
These are ways to address the problem that do not involve people moving to less segregated neighborhoods, Somerby's impossible solution. Public policies permitted people to segregate themselves. Policies can be changed to reverse that. There are sufficient demographics to do it if you add in the kids who are diverted from the public school system, a group Somerby never considers in his rants.
sorry for typo: "minority kids be permitted to attend public schools" should be "minority kids be permitted to attend private schools"Delete
According to Wikipedia, the only borough of NYC without enough white residents to make up desegregated schools is the Bronx, which has 29% white residents.Delete
Yeah, but it’s the demographics of the public school population that counts. Even Staten Island as a minority white school population.
If there are insufficient white students in NYC, it is because white parents are not sending their kids to public schools.
Charter schools and other private schools,
Charter schools in New York are public schools.
and home-schooling, are diverting white kids from the schools attended by minority children. THAT is a problem that can be addressed. First, I suggest rolling back support for charter schools
About that. Charter schools in NY are public schools, and in NYC they are heavily black and Hispanic.
and requiring that minority kids be permitted to attend public schools.
You corrected this to private schools. What makes you think minority kids are not permitted to attend private schools? Do you mean that private schools must not be allowed to discriminate? I doubt that would be legal. But private schools that have tax-exempt status or that accept federal funds can’t discriminate.
That will make them undesirable as havens of white flight and parents will stop spending the tuition fees on them.
Why is that again?
Once white kids return to public schools, the quality of the schools will improve because funding tends to follow the white student enrollment.
It would also be a good idea to disallow home schooling, since few parents are qualified to teach their kids and the result is that they are doing online programs or group schooling that permit them to avoid mixing with diverse others (often on the basis of religion). That is bad for kids and bad for society.
This is fewer than 10K soon-to-be feral children in New York City.
And, of course, school districts can be gerrymandered for diversity instead of to separate kids racially.
Do you even have a clue as to why that’s not going to happen?
These are ways to address the problem that do not involve people moving to less segregated neighborhoods, Somerby's impossible solution.
None you’ve come up with.
Public policies permitted people to segregate themselves.
No, public policies made segregation inevitable.
Policies can be changed to reverse that.
Do you even have a clue as to why that’s not going to happen?
There are sufficient demographics to do it if you add in the kids who are diverted from the public school system, a group Somerby never considers in his rants.
That’s because the state doesn’t have the power to undivert. Maybe that’s why TDH never considers it.
Your ignorance is adorable and appalling at the same time.
deadratJune 13, 2019 at 8:38 PMDelete
Your pessimism is fascinating and makes for good reading. I shall ponder it at length.
A Bold Agenda for School Integration
"Charter schools in New York are public schools."
Yes, also in Alabama,
also in Alaska
also in Arizona
also in Arkansas
also in California
also in Delaware
also in Florida
Hawaii AND Idaho
also in Illinois
also in Indiana
also in Iowa
get a room guys!
very much so in Maryland
also in Massachusetts
also in Michigan
also in Minnesota
also in Mississippi
also in Missouri
also in Montana
also in Nebraska
also in Nevada
also in New Hampshire
also in New Jersey
also in New Mexico
also in New York
also in North Carolina
also in North Dakota
also in Ohio
also in Oklahoma
also in Oregon
also in Pennsylvania
also in Rhode Island
what? are you sure?
also in South Carolina
why, I declare!
also in South Dakota
also in Tennessee, where public schools can legally marry charter schools, but not private schools
also in Texas
also in Utah
also in Vermont
also in Virginia
also in Washington
also in West Virginia
also in Wisconsin
also in Wyoming
Deadrat, this is an excerpt from the Century Foundation link cited by someone else above. It supports my contention that charter schools are a problem in achieving integration. I don't know the specifics of NYC because I don't live there. Your snide corrections are unhelpful in discussing anything.Delete
"The original idea for charter schools, as articulated by teacher union leader Albert Shanker in the late 1980s, was to create new public schools where teachers would be able to take on leadership roles and try out different teaching methods, students of diverse backgrounds would come together without rigid neighborhood attendance zones, and lessons would be shared to improve public education more generally.64 In practice, however, few charter schools today live up to this vision. Charter schools are more likely than traditional public schools to have either high-poverty or low-poverty enrollment (more than 75 percent or less than 25 percent of students eligible for free or reduced-price lunch, respectively), and less likely to be economically integrated.65 Charter schools also have higher rates of racial isolation than traditional public schools, with 17 percent of charter schools enrolling student bodies that are at least 99 percent students of color, compared to 4 percent of traditional public schools.66 And only 11 percent of charter schools are unionized.67"
Your snide corrections are unhelpful in discussing anything.Delete
As Philip Marlowe says about his attitude, “I’ve had complaints about it, but it keeps getting worse.”
I stipulate that I’m often rude, snide, boorish, and contemptuous, but try to disregard that and realize that it’s your ignorance that’s unhelpful in discussing anything. You opine on the topic of NYC public schools while admitting that you don’t know the specifics and your excuse? You don’t live in NYC.
Neither do I. And yet, somehow I do know the specifics. Go figure.
My corrections may be snide, or more accurately, you perceive them to be snide. But they’re also substantive. You think charter schools are private. They’re not, they’re public. Private schools may discriminate on the basis of class and race (unless they receive public money or want to keep a tax exemption). Public schools must consider all applicants fairly.
Charter schools across the country have many problems, including funding, standards, fraud, lack of transparency, and the depredations of for-profit grifters. But that’s different. And charters as a whole in NYC are indeed more racially isolated than the city’s DOE schools (Based on eligibility for food aid, they’re not much more economically isolated.) But because charters have only about 10% of NYC’s students and because they enroll relatively few white students, charters cannot be much of a problem in achieving integration in NYC.
As for “school districts… gerrymandered for diversity,” are you aware that parents can apply to any school district to admit their children? This is very popular, especially among black parents, so popular in fact that there are perennial complaints from parents that they don’t get their top choices often enough.
Local community control of schools, the popularity of school choice, and the high regard for charter schools make your daydreams of the reversal of “white flight” just that, daydreams.
The commenter you reference clearly does not think charter schools are private. If I am wrong, he, and only he, can correct me. This is of course a point of zero consequence.
That is not an issue of substance, and neither are your other comments. The general thrust of all your comments are to nitpick over ways you think someone has misinterpreted TDH. Granted, you make think this is substance, but you will not find anyone to agree with you. Please, those in support of deadrat speak up -
Ah, as I suspected, no defenders.
Sorry, deadrat, your protestations aside, no one appreciates you because you do not provide anything of substance.
The commenter I reference writes “Charter schools and other private schools.” The plain meaning of English means that charter schools are private. If I’m wrong, TCIR may correct me.
This is an issue of substance because the topic is schools siphoning off white students to make racial diversity that much more difficult. Private schools may discriminate by race, so they can do that. Charter schools cannot.
Oh, dear. No one appreciates me because I don’t provide anything of substance.
Are you sure that you don’t mean that you don’t appreciate me and that you are unable to comprehend the substance of what I write? That statement would at least be intellectually honest.
The general thrust of many of my comments is that commenters err when they pretend to have access to the blogger’s interiority. I think they’re better off taking the blog’s entries at face value. YMMV.
I think I’ve come up with a solution for you. If you think my comments have no substance, then they’re not worth reading let alone commenting on, no? So stop reading my comments. I always use my id, so my comments are easy to spot.
Barring that, you can always go fuck yourself.
Either option works for me, so give one a try.
Anyone come to deadrat's defense yet?Delete
Anyone buy his defense?
Anyone think deadrat's comments have any value?
Looks like no on all counts, deadrat.
Hilariously, you took time to write this, to me:
"you can always go fuck yourself"
I detect a hostile tone, what a strange creature you are. Isn't your hand getting cramped clinging to my belt loop?
Most black kids live in NYC, not the State of New York. Why is Somerby trying to claim that desegregation is impossible because there aren't enough black kids in the entire state, when it is the NYC schools that are the problem?ReplyDelete
Regardless, are you going to smoke me out or what?Delete
The idea that liberals scold is an inevitable consequence of the fact that liberals demand change. They won't leave conservatives in peace to enjoy the status quo.ReplyDelete
Actually it is conservatives who are demanding change after decades of left wing failure at every level. The term conservative and liberal are misnomers as commonly used. Democrats hate free speech. Chicago, Baltimore, and California are Democrat cesspools and getting worse. Venezuela is a Democrat utopia. Conservatives are demanding a better future for minorities and are defending our freedoms from Democrats who are defined by unhinged campus mentality now.Delete
I think you are confusing a conservative media stereotype of California with the actual state. You might ask yourself why California is on this list of yours while Colorado, which is much more liberal, is not.Delete
I worked on a campus and never encountered the bizarre PC weirdness that conservatives think is rampant.
Calling any place where human beings live a "cesspool" is pretty crass, in my opinion. Sort of like calling a country a shithole.
Costa Rica would be closer to a Democratic utopia. Do you know anything about any central American country that hasn't been talked about on Fox News?
"I worked on a campus and never encountered the bizarre PC weirdness that conservatives think is rampant."Delete
A zombie cult member sees no weirdness in zombie cult behavior - quelle surprise.
"These Yankee "liberals" are the true villains!"ReplyDelete
But Bob, this is common knowledge. And not "liberals" - liberals.
“Thanks to the UCLA professors' lazy, slipshod scholarship, we don't know the basis on which they said that New York State was worse than Illinois.”ReplyDelete
This is literally the first sentence in the Executive Summary:
“New York has the most segregated schools in the country: in 2009, black and Latino students in the state had the highest concentration in intensely-segregated public schools (less than 10% white enrollment), the lowest exposure to white students, and the most uneven distribution with white students across schools.”
A footnote leads to more supporting data:
Orfield, G., Kucsera, J., & Siegel-Hawley, G. (2012). E pluribus...separation? Deepening double segregation for more students. Los Angeles, CA: UCLA Civil Rights Project.
Here is more from the “Westwood Two”, those clueless, lazy, scolds:ReplyDelete
“It is true today that in cities like Los Angeles or Chicago, district-wide desegregation in a beneficial and lasting way has long been impossible within the city. On the other hand, good magnet schools created from strong desegregation plans still have enduring power to enroll student bodies diverse by both race and income in many urban settings, while gentrification also offers opportunities for integrated schools that are seldom addressed by school leaders.”
“Supporting desegregation does not imply that it is a cure-all for educational inequalities. It isn’t. Educational inequality has many causes and there is no single, simple answer. Segregated schools are clearly unfair, but so are a number of other forces impacting the lives of Latino and African American students, some of which require solutions outside the schools. While desegregation opens up the possibility of better opportunities, it does not assure them, particularly if children are resegregated at the classroom level or if teachers lack understanding of their students. However, desegregation is clearly superior to segregation and we know how to increase its value by creating equal conditions within diverse schools. To get the large gains, you have to do it well, making sure all students feel welcome, are treated fairly and have access to the full array of opportunities the schools offer. Much is known about how to do it successfully from a half century of research, not only in the U.S. but in other societies as well.”
“Diversity need not always include whites. Well-prepared, middle- class Asian, black and Latino classmates can also enrich the opportunities for many of their poor counterparts who are faced with double segregation by race and class.”
“Suburban communities can mobilize to build lasting diversity, for example, and gentrifying central city neighborhoods could invest in stable and integrated schools and communities. We could create powerful regional magnet schools that would offer opportunities impossible to provide within single districts. Supportive housing and community development policies could help greatly and avoid resegregation and decay in many suburbs across the nation.”
“The resegregation that we see across the country is not the result of flight from busing, and the solutions needed now should not be seen in that context. There have been no major busing plans implemented for a third of a century. We are seeing the impacts of a changing population, abandonment of desegregation plans and the spread of housing segregation into the suburbs. The policies needed now don’t involve great controversial changes. They do include: revamping the operation of choice systems to foster--rather than undermine--lasting integration; expanding local and regional magnet schools; adopting civil rights policies for charter schools; helping educators and community leaders move from racial change to lasting and positive diversity; seriously addressing housing discrimination that limits opportunities and undermines communities, and providing support and tools to local educators and elected officials who want to work for positive outcomes.”
(From “E pluribus...separation? Deepening double segregation for more students.”)
Somerby needs to stop misrepresenting the ideas and the concerns of people like Orfield and Kucsera. His ridiculous posts like today’s are harmful to the public discourse. He pretends to care about the academic achievement of black kids, but he does not. He is a dilettante and a fraud.
This comment has been removed by the author.Delete
You are becoming a Human Being.Delete
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