TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 7, 2023
What Obama said: Sunday morning, in the 8 a.m. hour, viewers of a cable news program were alerted to Obama's misconduct.
The day before, the former president had advanced an assessment which was "absolutely disgusting." Or at least, so said Batya Ungar-Sargon, the former Berkeley graduate student who is today one of the endlessly reinvented Newsweek's fifty-seven different editors.
Ungar-Sargon is 42 years old. Her comments this day were timeless. On this occasion, she did what experts say we humans are wired to do:
Ungar-Sargon had plainly selected a side. As we showed you yesterday, this is part of what she said on the highly tribal "cable news" show, Fox & Friends Weekend:
UNGAR-SARGON (11/5/23): Thank you so much for having me, Rachel. Thank you for your incredible courage at this time, and I also just have to say thank you to everybody at Fox News, every producer, every writer,
You guys have been incredible in a sea of antisemitic media and bigotry. So thank you so much, from the bottom of my heart.
Speaking of signs, I was joking with a friend over Shabbat that the progressives need a new sign for their yard, right? "Black Lives Matter, In This House We Trust Science, No Human is Illegal, and Kill the Jews," right?
I mean, that's what we're seeing.
[Earlier speaker] is absolutely correct that the progressive movement is deeply, deeply antisemitic. Rashida Tlaib out there defending Hamas' chant, "From the river to the sea?" Why would anyone pick that as the hill to die on, I don't know.
But even President Obama, out there with a clip yesterday with absolute moral equivalency between Hamas and Israel. Absolutely disgusting stuff.
[...]
I feel very sure that this country will not accept this progressive movement with this disgusting antisemitism and anti-Israel sentiment. and we're going to see the unity of the American people and the good heartedness of the American people prevail.
Where once she'd been a graduate student, the current Ungar-Sargon is one of our truly great humorists.
Recently, she'd been joking with a friend about the outlook of the nation's progressives. Rim shot optional, this was the stuff of her quip:
Today's progressives are so deeply, deeply antisemitic that they need yards signs which say, "Kill the Jews."
So went Ungar-Sargon's latest award-winning joke. Based on context, it sounded like Barack Obama needs that yard sign too.
Ungar-Sargon was speaking with Rachel Campos-Duffy, one of the weekend friends. Campos-Duffy immediately began to ask if this progressive antisemitism might swing Jewish votes toward Donald J. Trump next year.
Indeed, why are so many Jewish voters Democrats to begin with? When Campos-Duffy asked, Ungar-Sargon offered this explanation:
"A lot of American go to college," she said. "And so they end up Democrats."
To watch that exchange, click here. But so it went as the weekend friends, aided by a succession of guests, brought the news to a significant segment of our rapidly failing nation.
For ourselves, we watched this interview live. We were surprised to hear that Obama had made absolutely disgusting remarks—disgusting comments which had apparently revealed his disgusting antisemitism.
We hadn't yet seen the video clip to which Ungar-Sargon referred. When we found the video clip, we were a bit surprised by one of the ways it began.
Below, we'll show you a transcript of Obama's complete remarks. But very, very early on, the antisemite said this:
And what is also true is that there is a history of the Jewish people that may be dismissed unless your grandparents, or your great-grandparents, or your uncle or your aunt, tell you stories about the madness of antisemitism.
As part of his disgusting remarks, the antisemitic former president had seemed to say that we must maintain our awareness of "the madness of antisemitism."
No one mentioned this inconvenient fact during Sunday's interview. As is now standard on "cable news" programs, viewers of this Fox News show were being exposed to one Storyline only.
At times of war, we humans are strongly inclined to behave this way, major top experts have said. We're inclined to pick a side and to otherize Others. Or at least, so these experts all claim.
At any rate, here's the full text of what Obama said. Here's the full text of the videotape to which the former grad student was referring:
OBAMA: If there’s any chance of us being able to act constructively to do something, it will require an admission of complexity and maintaining what on the surface may seem contradictory ideas:
That what Hamas did was horrific, and there’s no justification for it.
And what is also true is that the occupation, and what’s happening to Palestinians, is unbearable.
And what is also true is that there is a history of the Jewish people that may be dismissed unless your grandparents, or your great-grandparents, or your uncle or your aunt, tell you stories about the madness of antisemitism.
And what is true is that there are people right now who are dying, who have nothing to do with what Hamas did.
And what is true—right? I mean, we can go on for a while. And the problem with social media and TikTok activism and trying to debate this on that, is that you can’t speak the truth.
You can pretend to speak the truth. You can speak one side of the truth. And in some cases, you can try to maintain your moral innocence.
But that won’t solve the problem. And so if you want to solve the problem, then you have to take in the whole truth and you then have to admit nobody’s hands are clean. That all of us are complicit to some degree.
I look at this and I think back, "What could I have done during my presidency to move this forward?" as hard as I tried, and I’ve got the scars to prove it.
But there’s a part of me that still saying, "Well, was there something else I could have done?" That’s the conversation we should be having. Not just looking backwards, but looking forward.
And that can’t happen if we are confining ourselves to our outrage. I would rather see you out there talking to other people, including people who you disagree with.
If you genuinely want to change this, then you’ve got to figure out how to speak to somebody on the other side and listen to them and understand what they are talking about and not dismiss it. Because you can't save that child without their help. Not in this situation.
To watch that tape, click here. But those are the "absolutely disgusting" remarks to which the self-assured Newsweek savant had referred.
In fairness, let's be fair! Obama had recommended the very approach we humans have always been inclined to reject when we march off to war:
For starters, he had said that we need to acknowledge the "complexity" of the tragic matter under review. Beyond that, he had said that we need to be willing to maintain what may seem to be contradictory ideas!
We need to acknowledge the accuracy of various countervailing ideas! At any rate, the first such idea Obama cited was this:
"What Hamas did was horrific, and there’s no justification for it."
Thus spake the antisemite! And as he continued, he seemed to describe the very way this topic would be handled on the Fox News Channel, and perhaps on MSNBC:
"You can pretend to speak the truth," the former president said. "You can speak one side of the truth."
And that's when Obama offered the prescription which we humans tend to reject at times of war. This is the bewildering thing Barack Obama now said:
"If you genuinely want to change this, then you’ve got to figure out how to speak to somebody on the other side and listen to them and understand what they are talking about and not dismiss it."
We can't "confine ourselves to our outrage?" Even worse, we have to learn to listen to people who come from "the other side!"
We have to listen to such people! We can't just dismiss what they say!
Obama said there's no excuse for the horrific thing Hamas did. He said we must continue to be aware of "the madness of antisemitism."
In such ways, he apparently proved to Ungar-Sargon that he's deeply antisemitic. According to experts, the highly educated Berkeley PhD was behaving as we humans are wired to do during our endless wars.
Obama didn't sift the facts the way the Newsweek star prefers. According to experts, the "highly educated" Ungar-Sargon reacted to this behavior as do we humans at war!
Tomorrow: The endless sifting of facts
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/11/6/2203768/-Yes-Russia-likely-stole-the-Election-For-Trump-in-2016?pm_campaign=front_page&pm_source=trending&pm_medium=web
ReplyDeleteHere is a description of how Russia interfered to help put Trump into office in 2016. Read down to the end. This stuff is still happening.
Interesting evidence-based article, particularly how it detailed the huge 2016 spike in votes for the Green and Libertarian parties in the determinative swing states when comparing their votes to other presidential election years.
Delete"Where once she'd been a graduate student, the current Ungar-Sargon is one of our truly great humorists. "
ReplyDeleteSomerby pretends this woman's views arise from having been a grad student, when the glaringly obvious fact is that she is Jewish and a strong supporter of Israel, much like our own David in Cal, who has been expressing his own black-and-white views of this conflict here for a month now, without budging an inch. She is obviously not being a humorist. She is advancing her own opinions and Fox News is happy to have her do that.
Meanwhile, most people find nothing whatsoever funny about the situation in Gaza.
An accurate description of the situation.
DeleteBTW way, we haven't been shown the video of the horrific Hamas attack on Israeli civilians that initiated this war, because the media have not shown it. If @9:47 watched those horrors, perhaps s/he would be the one to budge an inch.
Videos of Israeli treatment of Palestinians in Gaza would move the needle as well.
DeleteBTW, has the Right dropped the whole "All Lives Matter" shtick, now that it's owning them, as much as the libs?
The SDS used to use pictures of dead Vietnamese villagers to sway emotion about the Vietnamese war. It is propaganda. They even showed pictures of dead dogs to get people to oppose the war.
DeleteHamas leadership is residing comfortably in Qatar, which Netanyahu’s Israel will not touch.
DeleteA moderate media figure recently asked an instructive question: What if Hamas were hiding in Israeli hospital and residential buildings, would Israel be bombing those?
The answer is no, which lays bare the intent of Israel in bombing Gaza is genocide.
You forget that those same Palestinian people elected Hamas whereas Israelis in the hospital and residential areas did not.
DeleteAside from the trivial notion that a vote should not be a death sentence, your claim is ahistorical and misleading. Whether it is from ignorance or bad faith, who is to say?
DeleteThere was only one vote, which was in 2006, and Hamas only got 44% of the vote.
Furthermore, most people in Gaza today did not participate in that vote (about half of Gaza is 18 and under) and surveys indicate the current support for Hamas in Gaza is relatively weak.
Worse, Hamas was propped up by Israel itself, in order to antagonize Palestinians, and the people in Gaza at the time of the 2006 vote were living under the oppressive thumb of Israel, so Hamas ran a misleading campaign promising moderation, reform, and material improvements.
Israel is not defending itself, it is actively engaging in a genocide.
You blame everything on Israel, past the point of credibility. 10,000 deaths among millions is hardly a genocide. Seems to me it was Hamas attempting genocide against Israel. They had no excuse for their attack. Who kills babies like that? Scum.
DeleteNo one is defending Hamas.
DeleteIsrael’s response to Hamas’ horrible terrorist attack has been to engage in a genocide, which means destroying a people in whole *or in part*.
The immorality of Israel’s actions is undeniable and far exceeds the terrible actions of Hamas, which it always has. Apparently a large amount, if not a majority of Israelis disagree with the actions Netanyahu has taken and are calling for a ceasefire.
Israel is trying to target Hamas not Palestinian people in Gaza, but using the term genocide is manipulative and propagandistic. Palestinian Arabs are not a race or an ethnicity. They are people living in a geographic area having a political disputes with their neighbors.
DeleteDenying Palestinians are an ethnicity is nonsensical and inaccurate.
DeleteSure, it could be the case that Israel is merely incompetent, indiscriminately killing civilians, half of which are children; it is more likely they are engaging in genocide.
Hand wave ten thousand and rising innocent deaths, more power to you, but it makes you seem psychotic.
Are you claiming Hamas incompetently killed children too? Is that also attempted genocide? You seem psychotic defending such acts.
DeleteNo one is defending Hamas and their terrorist attack.
DeleteDefending Israel’s horrific response to that attack by engaging in a genocide, seems psychotic.
Stop using the word genocide. Tryiung to discourage terrorism is not genocide.
DeleteLet’s start with a ceasefire, then we can reconsider words that trigger the delicate sensibilities of the militant aspects of Israel.
Delete"As is now standard on "cable news" programs, viewers of this Fox News show were being exposed to one Storyline only."
ReplyDeleteThis has been true since Fox started. Somerby makes it sound like Fox has only recently (now) become a one-sided propaganda machine. Now Somerby only needs to take another step forward and recognize that some of the content on Fox is manufactured, and he will be closer to the truth and understand why no one agrees with him about watching Fox News because they will hear things that appear nowhere else -- because they have the best facts, as Somerby once said (not long ago).
Somerby said "now standard on "cable news" programs," which means he is not exempting CNN and MSNBC in his statement. He is wrong about that and has only lately included Fox in his complaint about storyline, even though they are the worst practitioners.
DeleteI will repeat that narrative and storyline are how human beings process events in time. There is nothing inherently wrong with that and it is very difficult for people to step outside of a straightforward timeline that goes from past to present. Somerby uses the term storyline to imply that the narrative is being invented, is fiction, with events shoe-horned into a preferred story. That isn't the same thing at all. The invention of facts is disinformation. Changing the chronology or making it appear that there is causality that doesn't exist are forms of lying, not storyline.
It is annoying when Somerby invents his own meanings for terms that have preexisting definitions being used by other people.
See for example: https://www.amazon.com/Narrative-Methods-Sciences-Catherine-Riessman-ebook/dp/B00MBW4BLE#:~:text=%22Narrative%20Methods%20for%20the%20Human%20Sciences%20is%20a%20well%2Dwritten,observations%20as%20compiled%20from%20field
Corby replying to Corby is adorable.
DeleteCorby commenting that Corby is replying to Corby is not as adorable as 10:18 thinks.
DeleteIMO "now standard on cable news should be mended to also include the mainstream news. Here's an example
DeleteYesterday, a Palestinian supporter killed an elderly Israel supporter in Los Angeles by bashing him over the head. This looks like 2nd degree murder. The headline at NBC New uses the passive tense. It ignores intent and ignores who was perp and who was the victim. It merely says,
Man dies after being hit in the head at Israel-Hamas war protest in Westlake Village.
Imagine the assassination of MLK being reported as "Man standing at motel dies from being hit by a foreign object."
The passive is a voice, not a tense.
DeleteIf you read the mainstream news, you'll realize cops don't shoot their victims. It's when "the officer's gun went off" that does the killing.
DeleteGuns don't kill people. People kill people.
DeleteUnless it's a shooting with a police officer's gun. In which case, per the mainstream media, the victim was shot by the gun going off.
David, the Westlake Village case is still under investigation. The sheriff was just on TV. The suspect was one of those who called first responders. He stayed around to talk to the police, and he’s still cooperating.
DeleteIt would be wrong for news media to state a conclusion when the facts are still unknown.
"We can't "confine ourselves to our outrage?" Even worse, we have to learn to listen to people who come from "the other side!"
ReplyDeleteSomerby quotes Obama, emphasizing the parts he agrees with. And this may be what we need to do if we want to "change this". The quote is fuzzy about what we may want to change -- it seems to refer back to hearing only one side of the truth. But that would make this a tautology -- of course you must listen to both sides to hear both sides.
Inherent in Somerby's and Obama's approach is the idea that both sides have a part of the truth of a situation. But is that necessarily true? Do we bothsides WWII? Do we bothsides Stalin? Do we bothsides slavery and other atrocities simply because there were people defending both sides (or even multiple perspectives)? Are the opposing views equally right? It would be nice to think that, but I doubt that closer examination would support that idea.
More likely, you cannot resolve a conflict without having both sides talk to each other, and at least giving respect to both parties by listening to their views. But that doesn't validate the views and values of both sides. It is a mechanical attempt at resolving a dispute, not a way of knowing the truth. Obama and Somerby may be conflating the two.
Personally, I think actions and behavior matter as much as explanations and expressed viewpoints. Hamas has said horrible things forever, but when they do them it is far worse than inflammatory talk. Killing people is worse than talking about killing people. Further, threats coupled with terrorism have greater power than threats alone. Neither Obama nor Somerby can ignore what Hamas did, not even in the name of mutual understanding. When Hamas says it is uninterested in peace as long as Israel exists, those words mean something too, and should be believed.
Listening to others is not the solution to this problem. Listening while the other side does not, is worse than not listening at all. Somerby needs to look at game theory, but that may be over his head.
I don't find Obama's words particularly helpful in this crisis, but he is also not the guy in office who has to deal with this either. He can say what he wants as a private citizen, as can Ungar-Sargon.
It should go without saying (but obviously not, given Somerby's dislike of professors), but Dr. Ungar-Sargon does not speak for any Berkeley grads, former grad students or Berkeley faculty when she gives her opinion on Fox News. Gratuitously mentioning that she once attended Berkeley is wrong and unfair to the diversity of people at that university (today and in the past). Trying to smear college grads in general with her words is wrong too. Ask yourself why Somerby routinely does this kind of thing.
"Ask yourself why Somerby routinely does this kind of thing."
DeleteJust askin' questions!
Answers here:
Deletehttps://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/11/6/2203768/-Yes-Russia-likely-stole-the-Election-For-Trump-in-2016?pm_campaign=front_page&pm_source=trending&pm_medium=web
There is no reason why Somerby is not part of the cadre of paid internet trolls and political influencers who worked against Hillary in 2016.
So sad. Worse than Pearl Harbor. Poor Hillary.
DeleteInternet platforms must be more vigilant. And those that are not vigilant must be shut down.
Hillary retired and has been happy. It is the country that has suffered because of Trump and continues to suffer. Believe what you like.
DeleteYes, agreed. If no new wars and unprecedented prosperity is "suffered" in your language.
DeleteHow about hundreds of thousands of preventable covid deaths? Is that suffering enough for ya?
DeleteGame theory has limited value, since human behavior often emerges from the particular circumstances of systems and institutions in contemporary society, which can differ drastically from innate human behavior. Herbert Gintis is a decent source for gaining a relatively coherent perspective on game theory.
DeleteSomerby’s phoney “can’t we all get along” is nonsensical, in part since he applies equal weight to cases of asymmetrical power, which leads to untenable stances like denying the extent of racism.
Anonymouse 7:15pm, Somerby isn’t about merely getting along with power.
DeleteHow would you know?
DeleteMind reading is a favorite right wing pastime.
DeleteAnonymouse 9:50pm, you have a point in that. Somerby is of the elite gate keeper set.
DeleteSo are you, but yes, you are correct.
"According to experts, the highly educated Berkeley PhD was behaving as we humans are wired to do during our endless wars."
ReplyDeleteIf Somerby is going to attribute this to "experts" he needs to cite some.
What did that PHD do? She disagreed with something other people said and she expressed her own views. I believe that is part of our constitution (which doesn't say one's views must be adjudged correct to be protected speech).
If this woman had a PhD in political science (as Rachel Maddow does), then being "highly educated" would be relevant to her statement, but she is not talking about literature, which makes her doctorate irrelevant to her opinions. Why then does Somerby throw in her UC Bekeley degree as if it were responsible for her ideas? To slime her and to slime the campus, most likely, since that is what he does here nearly every day.
What does Somerby gain by discrediting academics and universities? That is the move of someone trying to advance fascism. Before Hitler attacked the Jews, he attacked the universities in Germany. The literature department at UC Berkeley did not teach this woman her attitudes towards Israel and Jews, she learned that at home. It didn't teach her intolerance either, since that is in conflict with academic values -- but then, she went into journalism and did not become a professor. She doesn't speak for anyone except herself, so why does Somerby lump her in with a group of people that holds no uniform view on Israel/Gaza or even Obama?
I have too much respect for Somerby to think this ongoing campaign against professors is accidental, sloppy thinking, and not a motivated attack with some goal in mind. My only question is who is funding him to do this? But in the end, that doesn't matter because the ultimate question is who benefits, and that is obvious. Those who wish to undermine democracy, weaken the US against foreign enemies such as Russia, and those on the right who would prefer to pillage our resources and economy instead of ensuring prosperity for all of our citizens. YMMV
"My only question is who is funding him to do this?"
DeleteJust askin' questions!
Answers here:
Deletehttps://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/11/6/2203768/-Yes-Russia-likely-stole-the-Election-For-Trump-in-2016?pm_campaign=front_page&pm_source=trending&pm_medium=web
There is no reason why Somerby is not part of the cadre of paid internet trolls and political influencers who worked against Hillary in 2016.
It's weird. I'm told that persuasion doesn't work -unless it's Russian troll farms doing the persuading, then it does.
DeleteYes. Paid Russian trolls are magically convincing. Hypnotic. Once you've read their text, you're under their spell. Forever. BE WARNED!
DeleteMao, who used to comment on this blog, was very unconvincing.
DeleteRussian trolls sound a lot like Somerby. Read through the link to the bottom where they explain that such trolls discussed a variety of things, but also threw in an occasional negative reference to Hillary. Because the goal is to create a climate surrounding her name, not to "persuade" anyone of any particular viewpoint.
DeleteSomerby claims he voted for Hillary, but he took every opportunity to portray her as a failed candidate and focused at length on her calling conservatives deplorable. He doesn't give arguments but he gets across that negative vibe about her. Democrats weren't doing that in 2016 because they wanted to beat Trump. Somerby, not so much. In fact, he was repeatedly predicting Trump was going to win.
If you read the description of Russian trolling, how would Somerby be any different than the techniques this article describes? He wouldn't be.
It's obvious to me that Russian trolls wrote Corby's article, to sow disunity among the wholesome innocent Americans.
DeleteAnonymices are right out of that old Twilight Zone episode about the Cold War.
DeleteCan you be more specific?
DeleteIf one bothers to read the linked article, Russians were/are not attempting persuasion, they were/are attempting voter suppression through demotivating voters.
DeleteNotably, sticking staunchly to one’s stance in the light of countervailing evidence well demonstrates the insignificance of persuasion, particularly in electoral politics.
Anonymouse 7:23pm, demotivating voters is a form of persuasion.
DeleteManipulation is not the same as choice.
DeleteAnonymouse 8:14 pm, manipulation is a form of persuasion unless you’re equating intellectually competent adults to children.
Delete4:11 PM
DeleteYou are delusional, scapegoating and lying to yourself. Or trolling and lying to everyone else.
7:39 There’s a difference, not merely a distinction, between changing one’s vote from Trump to Biden, for example, and staying home instead of voting for Biden.
DeleteIn the context of electoral politics, that is the difference between persuasion and motivation.
How one votes is largely baked in from formative experiences early in life, persuasion is not a significant factor in electoral politics.
That Republicans are putting a primacy on the notion of persuasion that no one else is, furthermore suggests it is a partisan tactic, not a good faith exploration of voting habits.
Anonymouse 9:13pm, then shy are you here?
DeleteWhy
DeleteI edify.
DeleteI do not accept payment.
Anonymouse 11:10pm, your overlords are likely to be very agreeable to that. All the other anonymices are being paid to argue that minds aren’t persuaded, but Somerby and Putin are changing minds.
Delete"At U.C. Berkeley, a campus famous for its political activism, students on both sides have reported that they’ve been threatened and doxxed. Many wear masks to protests for fear of being identified and harassed on social media."
ReplyDeleteThreats to free speech are an attack on our democracy. Somerby is too quiet about this kind of thing and too noisy about insisting that we all must agree by "listening" to each other. What if you listen and still don't agree? Respect and tolerance of opposing views are more important than listening to attain homogeneity of opinion. We have a process for deciding on action in the midst of vehement disagreement -- it is call democracy and it is embodied in our government.
People on all sides have the right to hold and express differing opinions -- even here at this blog comments, without being harrassed, as Somerby has been harrassing this professor today. If he disagrees with her take on Israel, he should argue the point, not demean her for being "highly educated" or any other personal characteristic.
Does Somerby have any opinions about this conflict? You wouldn't know it by what he talks about. He just wants us all to get along -- but sometimes that isn't possible. Meanwhile, he is sitting out the actual controversy. Whatta guy!
Cecelia, this response to doxxing, wearing masks, suggests that you cannot assume someone in a mask in a photo of a demonstration is doing so because of Antifa and not to prevent ongoing harrassment.
DeleteAnonymouse 2:02pm, I wasn’t asked not to make such assumptions, I was asked to believe that Antifa doesn’t exit.
DeleteThe men in the masks are Americans in London who were out in the street protesting at the Palestinian March and who were identified as Antifa by people who surveil that group.
Fox and other right wingers will call anyone Antifa. It doesn't mean they are. If people are wearing masks in order to prevent being stalked on social media, then they are not Antifa. I suspect you don't know what those supposed Antifa protesters were, since the purpose of wearing a mask is anonymity.
DeleteIf the right weren't so indiscriminate about labeling everyone Antifa, you wouldn't be having this problem.
Antifa is not an organization or even a movement. It refers merely to an opposition to fascism.
DeleteAnonymouse 6:37pm, I suspect that is why Antifa members wear masks, however, there is an entire industry of people who watch and follow them and know them. Some of them are reluctant Twitter stars.
DeleteYou are like someone’s grandmother asking what is TikTok.
The right doesn’t know or care who they call Antifa.
DeleteAnonymouse 8:12pm, I’m sure people on the right, in general, don’t care, and they don’t see Antifa under their beds in the way that you see right wing Putin agents under yours.
DeleteHowever, there are people who do follow Antifa from country to country,
Oh, well.
If someone is wearing a mask, you don’t know who they are and thus do not know whether they are Antifa or not. You are willing to believe whatever someone tells you, then defend that past the point of reasonableness, but you don’t actually know.
DeleteAnonymouse 8:59pm, what I know is by their actions and words that I see on video is that they share the same sympathies and act in the same manner . You can call these people in black with their faces covered Bantifa if you wish.
DeleteAs someone earlier pointed out, y’all are pissing in the wind, antifa is a political stance, not a group.
DeleteIf you are anti fascism, then you are antifa.
Antifa is a label like pedophile that conservatives use to incite hatred in their ignorant base, which consists of people like Cecelia.
DeleteAntifa is a well financed group. Just as the Proud Boys are that.
DeleteAnonymouse 9:49pm, perhaps some day you’ll grow a set?
And yet the Proud Boys are in jail. Not exactly the same, are they?
DeleteAnonymouse 10:37pm, not at all.
DeleteThe funding and the aegis on the Antifa side is straight from Soros.
10:46 Watch out for those men with the big net.
DeleteZig zag!
Anonymouse 11:13pm, the men in black, masking their faces, are swinging fists and soup cans live on Twitter. The only people who deny that are paid to deny it.
DeleteOne reason Obama's statement was disgusting is that he was playing, "Do as I say, not as I do." Obama said
ReplyDeletei look at this and I think back, "What could I have done during my presidency to move this forward?" as hard as I tried, and I’ve got the scars to prove it. But there’s a part of me that still saying, "Well, was there something else I could have done?" That’s the conversation we should be having,
The trouble is he is NOT looking back to see whether there is something he could have done. Here are a couple of can things he could and should have done as President
1. Unlike his predecessors of both parties, President Obama did NOT always support Israel at the UN. The UN is terribly biased against Israel. Traditionally, the US has been it's one strong defender.
2. It was no secret that much of the money that the US gave to the Palestinians was spent on weapons for terrorists rather than food, clothing, housing, etc. President Obama ignored this reality'and continued to support terrorism.
3. An ignorant comment the other day, Obama referred to the Palestinians in Gaza being somehow controlled by Israel. He ignored the fact that Israel totally withdrew from Gaza years ago. The people there were totally independent.
Don’t start egoistically philosophizing about Israel and Palestine when whole Israeli families were tortured and killed at their dinner tables. When there are infants and children underground with these terrorists.
DeleteYes, everyone expects you to call for a ceasefire, so do that and then shut the hell up.
Knock off all the other preening bullshit.
Amnesty International accused Israel of operating an apartheid regime where "Palestinians are treated as an inferior racial group and systematically deprived of their rights". Why would they say that?
Deletehttps://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/
Good question, @12:05, especially since it's false. Palestinians living in Israel have full citizenship rights. They vote. The serve in the legislature. In fact, Palestinians living in Israel have more rights than most Arabs living in the Middle East.
DeleteUsing the word "Apartheid" is done for effect. It's spin. It's unworthy of a serious civil liberties organization.
Karma's a bitch, Cecelia. Why wouldn't they simply move their dinner tables away from the land that belongs to Palestine's indigenous population? All there is to it.
Delete“ egoistically philosophizing about Israel and Palestine”
DeleteIsn’t that what Somerby is doing? He presumably approves of Obama’s sentiments. It’s the same thing he’s been preaching at liberals for years.
There are two distinct issues here: one, that Obama was accused of being a murderous anti-Semite for his views. That is clearly wrong, and it doesn’t help our discourse when people (in this case, a member of the supposedly mainstream media) make those kinds of charges.
The second issue is whether you agree with Obama or find his ideas ineffective.
Somerby is talking about issue one, although he clearly thinks that statements like Obama’s are useful or helpful.
Anonymouse 12:18pm, that particular formulation of things is more pertinent now than were Obama’s musings. Your view illustrates the fatuousness of his performance at this point.
DeleteIt's not just 'my view'. It's a fact. Here:
Deletehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_towns_and_villages_depopulated_during_the_1947%E2%80%931949_Palestine_war
If you placed your dinner table somewhere in Palestine, and you don't expect indigenous people coming for you, then you're an idiot.
Anonymouse 12:40pm, or perhaps I’d be the victor of the Six Day War.
DeleteThis has little to do with the six day war, 12:56 PM.
DeleteThe six day war is was in 1967, while most of the ethnic cleansing was done in 1947-49.
Result of that war didn't have to involve further ethnic cleansing, building Jews-only settlements and Jews-only roads on occupied territories, but that's exactly what Zionists did.
You can win a war a act humanly, rationally, and responsibly. But not if you are a Zionist.
Why would Amnesty International say Israel operates an apartheid regime? What incentive would they have to lie about it? Human Rights Watch says the same thing. That "Israeli officials ... dispossessed, confined, forcibly separated, and subjugated Palestinians by virtue of their identity to varying degrees of intensity."
DeleteIs that false? Why would they make that up and publish an extremely long and detailed paper attempting to support the accusation? Why?
Anonymouse 1:11pm, no, you can be advanced upon by an army of Arab nations who have vowed to destroy you. You can run them out of your back yard and into the sea, and then later relent on some territory, and wait until they try to destroy you again.
DeleteAmnesty International takes this stance because they’re fatuous dopes who see Israelis as privileged Caucasians.
The question may not be whether it is an apartheid regime but why Israel felt the need to institute it. When people say that Israel has the right to defend itself, that includes against random acts of terrorist violence perpetrated by individual Palestinians on an ongoing basis since its inception. How does one deal with that?
Delete"How does one deal with that?"
DeleteOne leaves the indigenous population alone, and gets the hell out of there.
Similarly to what the US did in Vietnam, Nicaragua, Afghanistan, and in other places. The French in Vietnam and Algeria. The English in India. Etc.
Because they are fatuous dopes is not a convincing or even serious answer. (I realize you're not an expert and may be emotional about this serious topic. I was seeking a serious response. But thanks for answering all the same.)
DeleteThe term "indigenous population" is propagandistic because it assumes there were people who were subjugated by the Ottoman Turks and later the British (under the League of Nations Mandate) who were displaced by the 1948 creation of Israel and the Palestinian territories. The arab nations surrounding the former Palestine Mandate immediately attacked Israel, starting a war that they lost. At the close of that war, Gaza and the West Bank, the former Paletine territories, were administered by Egypt and Jordan. After several subsequent wars against Israel, all lost by the arab nations who started them, Gaza and the West Bank were under Israeli administration, with their own elected governments (Hamas in Gaza, the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank). When you lose a war, you do not gain independence or territory. The Palestinians pissed away their original legitimacy by attacking Israel, their neighbors, and they are not strong enough to wipe them out but they continuing vowing to do so. This is not colonialism -- it is survival for Israel. The Palestinians need to stop their violence and seek a negotiated settlement that they will adhere to in good faith. That they have not done so up until now is their fault, not Israel's and not any surrounding country's.
Delete
Delete"you can be advanced upon by an army of Arab nations who have vowed to destroy you"
Perpetrators of an ethnic cleansing claiming victimhood is not new, but few are fooled, especially in this case. It's too obvious. Karma's a bitch.
Palestinians are not a unique ethnicity. They are similar to Arabs in neighboring countries. They are also not that different from sephardic Jews in Israel. The term Palestinian refers to those living in a geographic region, but there cannot be ethnic cleansing when people are not a distinct ethnicity.
Deletehttps://www.haaretz.com/science-and-health/2015-10-20/ty-article/palestinians-and-jews-share-genetic-roots/0000017f-dc0e-df9c-a17f-fe1e57730000
Right, Corby. You are adorable. Classifying people by their "genetic roots" to deny them common ethnicity is so sweet.
DeleteThat is the point -- Israelis and Palestinians have the same ethnic roots. That makes the claim of ethnic cleansing ridiculous.
Delete3:22 your history lesson is laughably ahistoric, as well as the earlier moron denying apartheid - in reality less than one in four Palestinians have a legal right to vote in Israel.
DeleteHalf are children so that leaves 25%.
DeleteDavid is an Other.
ReplyDeleteI see otters as Others. Prove me wrong.
DeleteRe 2: " Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas " Benjamin Netanyahu 2019, advocating funding Hamas to his Likud party.
ReplyDelete.
The President of the United States is not required by law to unconditionally support everything the far right wing Netanyahu regime does. His job is to protect the interests of the citizens of the United States. If you want a leader that has only the interests of Israel, I would suggest becoming a citizen there, except for the fact that their current leader not only promoted funding Hamas but released 1,000 of their fighters in exchange for 1 Israeli soldier, making them less secure.
The violence perpetrated on Palestinian citizens by Israeli West Bank settlers has now been labeled terrorist in nature by none other than the Israeli military. It has been ongoing for years and had markedly escalated before 10/7. DIC's one sided black and white take on everything Israel is exactly what Obama was talking about. There is absolutely no getting through to these people.
Incidentally, every man woman and child in the US could pay down the national debt by each paying out $100,000. For the Israelis to do that the number would be $34,000. When you resume the argument that we cannot afford Social Security and Medicare, explain why we are sending fungible money to a country with universal healthcare and free secondary education.
The unhinged policies that resulted in an unnecessary war in Iraq and the killing of hundreds of thousands of Muslim citizens, as well as US soldiers, was followed by an administration whose rhetoric made us a less likely target of Muslim extremists. The Biden administration likewise acknowledges that Arabs are humans and distinguishes between Palestinians and Hamas. Right wing outlets and the commenter from Berkley have extreme views lacking nuance nor a humanitarian view of the situation.
Good post Not Amused
DeleteThanks!
DeleteNotably, Jews outside of Israel live relatively safe and comfortable lives while Israeli Jews live in constant fear. Zionism has been a complete failure.
DeleteZionism is not the source of their fear. Terrorists are scum.
DeleteTerrorists are scum, Hamas is scum, provoking and/or propping up terrorists is also scummy.
DeleteEither way, Zionism is a failure. It is a failure in three ways: 1) it was supported by antisemites as a way to purge Jews from their areas, yet Jews are flourishing all over the world 2) it was supported by Christians hoping for the second coming, which is a myth and never happened 3) it was supposed to provide a safe space for Jews, but in fact Jews in Israel live in turmoil, while Jews (like me!) live in relative comfort and peace everywhere else.
Fine, except anti-semitism and hate crimes have been increasing while Trump has legitimized neo-nazis and white spremacists. People who live in Israel now are not mid-20th century Zionists or Jewish immigrants but citizens trying to live normally. There is no excuse for the Hamas attack, no way Palestinians can win militarily and they are being played for fools by Iran and enemies of peace. Attacking Israel will not cause Israelis to abandon their country.
DeleteUnamused. You do realize that there are red handprints on the gates outside of where Biden lives?
DeletePro Palestinian demonstrators have vandalised the White House. What’s your point?
Delete“We know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians.”
Delete― Nelson Mandela
I agree Israel is an ethnostate that engages in apartheid, and that Biden could have more forcibly intervened, more than just calling for a humanitarian aid pause, although we are not privy to behind the scenes negotiations, and Biden may have a fuller understanding of the circumstances and is acting accordingly.
I support peaceful protest, I have no issue with demonstrators leaving red handprints.
Any and all American presidents will have blood on their hands (Trump is “impressive” his incompetency with Covid leading to hundreds of thousands of unnecessary American deaths).
Freedom requires a sense of responsibility and self-restraint. Palestinians have neither. As long as they keep committing terrorist acts in Israel, Palestinians cannot be trusted woth freedom. They did that to themselves. This is part of what is meant when we say that Israel has the right to defend itself. Hamas has bood on its hands.
Deletemh, I’ve heard Pres. Obama called an antisemite, I’ve never heard him called murderous.
ReplyDeleteBut hey, we run in different crowds.
However, name calling Fox News or particular bloggers, rehashing the effectiveness of past presidents, this is the stuff of blogboards. I do know that it’s important to you and you’re here countering the heresy even as annonymices aver that such things don’t actually persuade anyone.
What Obama says publicly is on a different level.
The Newsweek person said this, as quoted yesterday by Somerby:
Delete“the progressives need a new sign for their yard, right? "Black Lives Matter, In This House We Trust Science, No Human is Illegal, and Kill the Jews," right?”
And “ But even President Obama, out there with a clip yesterday with absolute moral equivalency between Hamas and Israel. Absolutely disgusting stuff.”
The inference is that Obama, as a “progressive”, would put that sign up.
And of course you ignore the entire thrust of Somerby’s post today, which is to approve Obama’s message.
Deletemh, by my ignoring something that I’ve directly commented upon you mean that I haven’t gone after Bob rather than expressing my feelings about Pres Obama.
DeleteOh, that’s not trivializing . I haven’t called a blogger names over his defense of Obama, though Bob hasn’t he called Israel a usurper or even intransigent.
BTW, mh, I called Batya Ungar-Sargon antagonistic yesterday. I haven’t defended her OR her doctrinal thesis.
DeletePeople’s feelings about Obama are what Somerby is trying to address. Rather then labeling otherizing him and calling him anti Semitic, he wants people to adopt Obama’s views, which you deem fatuous. So, no, it isn’t about defense or criticism of Somerby. The message is about our discourse. Doesn’t it strike you as odd that you attack me, even when I AGREE with Somerby here?
Deletemh, what you’re missing here is that I understand that Somerby would like conservatives to adopt a plethora of liberal views.
DeleteSince Bob does sing ever stanza of your hymn, you don’t consider him as even being a liberal, therefore you fatuously think that there’s some sort of disconnect when I don’t blast Somerby.
I haven’t blasted YOU for your feelings about Obama’s speech. I’ve directly criticized Obama for his take.
Rather, since Bob does NOT sing…
Delete"I understand that Somerby would like conservatives to adopt a plethora of liberal views"
DeleteSomerby is not addressing conservatives here, since this is ostensibly a liberal blog where he calls himself liberal and refers to "we liberals".
There is a disconnect here because Somerby is talking to liberals on a liberal blog but promoting right wing memes and repeating conservative talking points.
Next time you see Somerby trying to convince conservatives of liberal views, please quote them in comments so we can see what you are talking about.
Anonymouse 2:16pm, what I see is that Bob thinks the country is cultural civil war and he writes blogs thst are very compelling on this subject.
DeleteBob encourages his fellow liberals to understand the seriousness of our political rifts AND to refrain from acting as Batya Ungar-Sargon did on Fox News.
For this he has an infestation of anonymices who blast him no matter his take on any subject and who prove him correct by the day.
If you were a liberal and a conservative said your articles were very compelling, wouldn't you rethink your approach?
DeleteWe all know how serious the political divide is in our country. Some of us (if not most) disagree about what to do about it.
Anonymouse 3:13pm, do you have to be in complete agreement with someone to find them compelling?
DeleteCompelling liberals- Jimmy Carter, Barack Obama, Richard Dawkins, Bernie Sanders, John Locke, Robert Kennedy, Chris Hitchens, Ezra Klein, Kevin Drum, Martin Luther King, Harry FDR, Andrew Yang and many more.
(No order as to level of fascination)
I largely disagree with all of the politicians on this list, but find them compelling in particular ways and would understand how other conservatives would feel similarly.
This is NORMAL thinking. You’re the outlier.
You seem to agree with whoever you last heard speak. That is not NORMAL thinking.
DeleteAnonymouse 5:13pm, right. We all Zoom several times a week.
DeleteAnonymouse 5:13pm, there is a difference between agreeing with someone and finding their arguments or opinions compelling and thought provoking.
DeleteThat fact is normal thinking for everyone but political militants and religious fanatics.
“ there is a difference between agreeing with someone and finding their arguments or opinions compelling and thought provoking.” Ok.
DeleteBy the transitive property, 1) Obama’s argument is fatuous and feckless. 2) Somerby agrees with Obama’s argument and urges his readers to adopt it. Therefore, 3) Somerby is fatuous and feckless in promoting and supporting fatuous and feckless statements.
“ religious fanatics.”
DeleteMike Johnson on line 1.
Anonymouse 6:18pm, it wouldn’t surprise me.
Deletemh, imagine that your spouse was for Joe Biden in 2020.
DeleteHowever, you considered Elizabeth Warren to be the better candidate because, in your opinion, Biden had shown some fecklessness in some past stances.
Therefore it’s only logical for you to conclude that your spouse, who supports Biden , is feckless too?
You actually find such generalizations logical?
It's better to be feckless than fuckless.
DeleteLiberal is a fuzzy word without a firm history or ideology to ground it.
DeleteThis is, in part, why it is more coherent to delineate left versus right, while recognizing that those sides exist on a spectrum, they are grounded in history and academia, the French Revolution and behavioral science, respectively.
As such, from 4:36’s list, MLK jr and possibly FDR, Bernie Sanders and Hitchens can reasonably be considered on the spectrum of the left, the rest are on the spectrum of the right, most of them being neoliberals.
Anonymouse 7:57pm, right. Antifa, Santa Claus, Liberals, Easter Bunny… hummmm….
DeleteRight wingers do not like political leanings well defined because it interferes with their efforts to muddy the water and manufacture ignorance.
DeleteAnonymouse 9:31pm, it’s not right wingers who are saying this undefined crap:
Delete“Liberal is a fuzzy word without a firm history or ideology to ground it.”
and that Antifa doesn’t exit.
10:02 Based on your comment, it is likely you did not properly comprehend the point.
Delete“Liberal” is poorly defined, “antifa” does not exist as a group, it’s a word referring to anyone that opposes fascism.
It is likely that what you are expressing is a desire to continue to use a tactic that avoids clarity, as that provides a better circumstance for your partisan goal.
Anonymouse 10:49pm, it’s more likely you, in your “clarity”, do not wish to address the actual words of your colleagues, even when they are declaring themselves and you to be “fuzzy and without a firm history”
DeleteIn Pee Wee Herman’s words, Cecelia just said “I know uou are, but what am I?” Childish as usual, but mostly unresponsive.
DeleteNo, Anonymouse 11:11pm, the Anonymouse 7.57pm, declared you and herself fuzzy and without a firm history or ideology.
DeleteI merely watch anonymices drclsring yourselves and everything you avow as being nonexistent.
You somehow think that’s a counter to every critique that is made of you.
Somerby is agreeing with Obama’s ideas, not just reprinting his words. And you’re calling Obama’s ideas fatuous.
DeleteGibberish
DeleteSome people seem to care about mistreatment of the Palestinian people only when the ones who can be blamed are Jewish.
ReplyDeleteConsider the mistreatment of the Palestinians in Gaza by Hamas, Gaza's own government.
-- Hamas, steals relief money from abroad for weapons of aggression and their own personal enrichment.
-- Hamas intentionally put military installations in civilian areas, so that more civilians would be killed.
-- Hamas prevented Palestinian civilians from fleeing the area that was to be under attack. Hamas's goal was to maximize Palestinian civilian casualties
-- Hamas precipitated a war that was bound to result in thousands of dead and homeless Palestinians.
I would like to see unamused become irate at Hams because Hamas does not treat the Palestinians as human beings.
The US should stop aiding both Hamas and Israel. Aid neither of them. End all security cooperation with them. Remove our armed forces from the Middle East. Support a nuclear-free zone in the region.
DeleteWill it benefit the US to have no place to land its planes in the Middle East?
Deletehttps://fanack.com/politics/united-states-policy-in-the-middle-east/us-military-in-the-middle-east/
DeleteThe US has at least 30 bases in the Middle East.
Last time I checked, it wasn't news that Hamas is a terrorist organization. Or any of the other bullet points, David. Hamas=bad, does that clarify? The "news" that Bob posted is that some right wing over-educated bimbo verbalized that progressives are antisemites (I would usually assume that she excludes Jewish progressives but her histrionic vitriole may extend to them as well). She might want to take that thought with her to the next Trump rally, with one word of caution: steer clear of the neonazis.
DeleteShe was on Fox saying what Fox viewers wanted to hear. Calling her a bimbo helps nothing.
DeleteCalling progressives antisemites helped what , exactly? Lying bitch might work better.
DeleteAnonymouse 6:03pm, antisemites vs lying bitch.
DeleteYou might want to consider that nuance might just be the friend you need.
"David. Hamas=bad, does that clarify?"
DeleteThis misses my point. Hamas is bad for the Palestinians arguably worse for the Palestinians than is Israel. People who care about the Palestinians being treated as human beings ought to be addressing Hamas as much as they address Israel.
8:21 is correct, which is why Israel aided in creating and propping up Hamas for years, all the while sowing division against the more secular PLO that was working for peace.
DeleteRight wing Israelis want Palestinians wiped off the earth. An American journalist went to Israel a few years ago and interviewed everyday right wing Jews in Israel, how they viewed Palestinians as being subhuman is shocking.
“…how they viewed Palestinians as being subhuman is shocking”
DeleteAre you brain dead?
DIC: your point was acknowledged in the second sentence of my comment. Your comments regarding Obama and his so-called called naive funding to Hamas via humanitarian aid to Palestine is not supported by any fact. You should read about how such money is allocated. The Times of Israel has an article you can google on this matter. The EU has spent considerable money on Palestinian infrastructure and building projects, but the al!ocation of such funds was brought into question in 2016 when it was determined that the Israelis had destroyed 150 or so of these projects. You should do some simple internet research to better understand this aid and not single out Obama as if he was an outlier in supplying Palestine with financial support. The US has spent far more on support for Israel, a top 25 country in wealth, with a GDP equivalent to France's. But god forbid we should question the billions given to Israel, no strings attached, while providing meager support financially to our armed service veterans.
DeleteThat said, DIC, I think we have some common ground. I agree that no money should be sent overseas that can be diverted to terrorist activity. Of course, the Israelis have funded West Bank settlers whose activities against their Palestinian neighbors have recently been labeled terrorist by the IDF. Activities that include violence, murder and forcible displacement of Palestinians from their land. And have been going on for years. Glad to see we're on the same page, or are you scrambling for some nuanced interpretation of this activity?
DeleteBut I am glad that DIC and I should find common ground here; specifically that we should not fund countries that can misappropriated US tax dollars to terrorists. But wait. The Israeli government funds West Bank settlers. The same people whose activities towards their Palestinian neighbors have been recently labeled acts of terror by none other than the IDF. You know, acts of violence, murder, and forcible displacement of Palestinians there from their homes. Been going on for years. Obama should never have funded that but hindsight is 20:20.
Delete"If you genuinely want to change this, then you’ve got to figure out how to speak to somebody on the other side and listen to them and understand what they are talking about and not dismiss it."
ReplyDeleteI guess Obama is not privy to the "research" demonstrating that persuasion is useless.
Nor was Abe Lincoln.
DeleteObama proved it with his own actions. He was like Charlie Brown who ran at that football every single time, only to have it yanked away by Republicans.
Delete3:11 Well, not every single time. Obamacare. Not the best version of healthcare reform, but the perhaps the best he could pass. After which the republican mantra for years involved repealing the law, but no longer a selling point for them. Of course, Trump said he would replace it with something better and of course he didn't. So that was a 55 yard FG, especially in red states.
DeleteI think it was more like a 65-yard field goal after Ted Kennedy died and was replaced by a Republican.
DeleteObamacare was in fact a Republican healthcare reform, there were too many blue dog Dems to get anything better. So it was more like a recovered fumble.
DeleteObama is famous for not understanding that there is no persuading Republicans.
Persuasion is a myth, really a con, pushed by right wingers in order to weaken their opponents. If you fell for it, that’s on you, you did not bother to learn anything.
Obamacare was Romney’s health plan.
DeleteIf persuasion is a myth why are so many hundreds of millions of dollars spent on political advertising? And I thought Russian trolls persuaded American voters to vote for Trump with their scary 50 thousand dollar Facebook ad campaign.
DeleteShut the fuck up with your persuasion is a myth bullshit you fucking dumb fuck.
Ads are largely emotional.
DeleteYou are using different definitions of persuasion. There is no need to get nasty.
10:54 I’m not persuaded by your nonsensical conflating of motivation with persuasion in electoral politics.
DeleteAdvertising is a separate but still problematic entity, although it is a related issue, being largely dependent on motivation.
Persuasion in electoral politics is a myth, and it is interesting how much that triggers you.
Frankly, I think this insight is key to the split here among liberals. Some are convinced that Somerby is not a liberal because he preaches that we should listen to the Others and try to persuade them. But if that's the heresy that justifies excommunication, then Obama is not a liberal either.
ReplyDeleteThat is far from the only reason some here believe Somerby is not liberal. He frequently expresses sexist and racist views that are contrary to values held by liberals. No liberals were giving Bill O'Reilly a bye back when he was on the air. No liberals go around saying that liberals should watch Fox News because they have better facts. No liberals were defending the cop who shot Michael Brown and none were excusing Kyle Rittenhouse or George Zimmerman. None of us have called for Trump to be pitied not prosecuted, and no liberals that I know opposed Trump's impeachment because it would overrule the will of the voters in 2016. The liberals I know were calling for an investigation of Russian involvement in the election. Somerby has even suggested that Trump had the right to steal all those classified documents. Those are not liberal views.
DeleteBut I don't have to decide such things. The Democrats have a platform when they run a presidential candidate. That platform specifies what the party stands for. Back when Biden won the nomination, Somerby came out and said that he thought ALL of the Democrats running for the nomination were terrible. After Kamala Harris became the VP nominee, Somerby attacked her for repeating the Department of Labor's statements about the gender wage gap (another liberal concern that Somerby does not believe exists, contrary to Nobel Prize winning economist Claudia Goldin. Most liberals know better.
So, Dogface, no, that is not the heresy Somerby committed and Obama is certainly liberal. Somerby is not because of his many other conservative opinions and his furtherance of conservative memes and talking points at this blog.
Don't ask where Somerby said all of this stuff. Those who read this blog regularly already know and it is a waste of our time to provide you with quotes and cites that you then ignore or claim don't say what they obviously do.
Corby is adorable.
DeleteThe problem is Bob wants us to dismiss the bigotry of "the Others", and instead engage with their feelings, but their feelings are based on their bigotry. It's a catch-22.
Delete"Don't ask where Somerby said all of this stuff."
DeleteI'm not going to. In my experience, you must make shit up and it's pointless to ask you to support your absurd accusations.
4:05 - The main problem, I feel, is your lack of ability to comprehend nuance. Let's take just one example - the "gender wage gap." Somerby says men and women should be paid the same for equal work. But he says the so-called "gender wage gap" doesn't measure pay for equal work, but instead it measures something else entirely. And he says that the reporting on the extent of this "gender wage gap" is confused and confusing. 10/25/23.
DeleteBut, in your ham-handed way, you say that "Somerby does not believe [the gender wage gap] exists." You're just wrong about that.
No, actually she is right about that. Somerby does not believe the gender wage gap exists, because the gender wage gap doesn't exist. Women are not paid less for the same work/same hours.
DeleteThe "gender wage gap" is unrelated to same work/same hours. 10/25/23.
DeleteSomerby doesn't say men and women SHOULD BE paid the same, he says they ARE being paid the same. He hasn't said that the wage gap measures something else, he has denied it is correct. I have pointed out repeatedly that Harris and other politicians who have quoted the gap are taking their info from the Dept of Labor, but that has not inspired Somerby to check it out. He just keeps saying that there is no gender wage gap (meaning no discrimination, equal pay for equal work). Somerby intends to say that women have nothing to complain about -- like conservatives, he claims that women get paid less because they choose lower paying jobs and choose fewer hours and choose to stay on the mommy track and off the fast track out of lack of ambition. Somerby has never fully argued any of the subtleties -- he just accuses Harris and other women of "lying" (Somerby's word) about the pay differential. YOU are making excuses for him and maligning me because I have objected to this mishandling of the topic. And no, I am not "wrong about that". You are the person who is wrong.
Delete"Somerby doesn't say men and women SHOULD BE paid the same, he says they ARE being paid the same."
DeleteAgain, you're just making shit up here. Go you be you.
If the "gender wage gap" is unrelated to same work/same hours, then the "gender wage gap" is completely meaningless.
DeletePeople are paid for the work they do, period. Well, with rare exceptions, like waitresses at Hooters.
"Somerby doesn't say men and women SHOULD BE paid the same"
DeleteHere's what Somerby actually says: "Men and women should receive equal pay for doing the same work!" 10/25/23
So can we agree you're dead wrong about that one?
And then, if you could provide a cite to support your (ridiculous) assertion that "he says they ARE being paid the same." (Or, if you're a mensch, admit that you just made this up.)
Neigh! I'm getting thirsty!
DeleteNo, I do not have time to repeat the things I said before when Somerby first brought this up. Read about this in the book I cited. It will explain all the dodges and the disadvantages that women work under that may current employment unequal and make this more than an argument about equal pay for equal work. Somerby has always ignored all of the details and now apparently so do you. This is a waste of time.
DeleteTalk about dodges!
DeleteI don’t owe you anything.
DeleteAs I recall, Somerby said the gender wage gap is much smaller than what Maddow and others claimed, but had dubious evidence to support his claim. The general thrust of Somerby’s take is that the issue is of little significance, which is nonsense, and that it turns men against women, which is true for some right wingers but otherwise also utter nonsense.
DeleteSomerby often makes “liberal” sounding asides to appear reasonable in order to better position his right wing stances; these asides are obviously disingenuous.
Somerby has yet to persuade any of the blue tribe, his small cohort of fanboys remain steadfast in their positions as well. The fanboys could gain helpful insight if they pondered this circumstance, but they can not be bothered - they are solely focused on trying to win or own the libs.
His fanboys are an odd assortment: Cecelia pretends to be a woman, David claims relationships and experiences that do not exist, another falsely claims to be a lawyer, another one hilariously offers white knight services to a phony woman while acting as the Black Knight of comments - denying losing in the midst of their moronic arguments being debunked, another one engages in petulant smugness while failing to understand even basic notions like how we determine congressional districts, etc.
Democrats are in enormous trouble. They have lost the black vote. If they don't get it back, they lose the presidency.
DeleteThe reason why they lost the back vote is black people don't trust them. All of the accusations of racism by white Democrats may have helped sour blacks on the Democratic Party perhaps because they can smell that it's disingenuous.
According to a top Republican, Dems can retain the black vote by promising a bucket of fried chicken in every house.
Delete9:28 your claim is laughably false.
Actually, looks like today has been a big win for Dems - Ohio, Kentucky, RI, etc.
DeleteSomerby will work hard tomorrow to avoid eating crow.
"9:28 your claim is laughably false."
DeleteYou better hope it is. I base it on the N Y Times poll that "found that 22 percent of Black voters in six of the most important battleground states said they would support former President Donald J. Trump in next year’s election", "a level unseen in presidential politics for a Republican in modern times"
And reports for 2020 that "there’s little dispute that Black voters were a driving national force pushing the former vice president to the winner’s column. By overwhelmingly backing Biden and showing up in strong numbers, Black voters not only helped deliver familiar battleground states"
https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-joe-biden-race-and-ethnicity-virus-outbreak-georgia-7a843bbce00713cfde6c3fdbc2e31eb7
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/05/us/politics/biden-trump-2024-poll.html
Did the aging white male bloggers you waste your time reading not mention any of this to you? ;)
The Black vote is integral to Dems getting elected, nobody takes that for granted.
DeleteI am a Somerby critic, not admirer.
The sky is falling reaction to the recent polls has already been debunked in progressive media.
We do not need to wait long for evidence, there were a lot of Dem wins this very day.
Google acquired all on-line work from home from $ 16,000 to $ 32,000 a month.(sa) The younger brother was out of labour for 3 months and after a month her check was $ 32475, engaging at home for four hours a day, and earning may be even bigger….
ReplyDeleteThus I Launched.............> > Www.Smartcareer1.com
Men should be paid 50% more than women for the same work.
ReplyDeleteFine, but in that case men should learn how to fuck better, I haven’t been brought to orgasm by a man in years.
DeleteAlthough, I’ve never hooked up with Hunter, mmmm those pics…
You’re insensitive.
DeleteOur Host made an excellent selection of the transcript to highlight: "If there’s any chance of us being able to act constructively to do something, it will require an admission of complexity..."
ReplyDeleteThe solution to the mystery lies within these few words. The news program is uninterested in constructive acts. Obama's accuser refuses to admit complexity. The aim is quite the opposite--to tear down political adversaries by offering simplistic, satisfying, one-sided solutions to intractable problems.
But perhaps I shouldn't point this out. I might be guilty of giving voice to the biases of "our blue tribe," no?
Complexity is fine for something like math or physics, not so much for society in the midst of oppression that is often violent in nature.
DeleteNazi bad.
Slaver bad.
Etc.
Complexity lies in the ability to see the difference between a critique of Obama and a critique of the people who took him.
Deletehttps://x.com/avivaklompas/status/1720813252815278475?s=42&t=oYvKLjVc8YzJIvwKoQTYBQ
Where did they take him?
Delete9:19 your comment is incoherent.
To the tunnels.
DeleteFor a hit of crack and some gay sex?
DeleteNot your anatomical tunnel.
DeleteHamas’.
Republicans say Obama did crack with his homeless gay lover. Sounds complicated.
DeleteIt sounds lame.
DeleteThough these are very emotionally charged days, this is another example of a highly educated academic turning out to be much dumber than one would have expected. Or, one doesn’t have to be too cynical to note, She was auditioning for more lucrative face time on Fox.
ReplyDeleteThis is not surprising on Fox, it is their brand. It might have made for half a blog post, not too long ones.
Bob has yet to note Fox may be hedging its bets by having an effective liberal mop up the floor with the other four on “The Five.”