INCOMPREHENSIONS: On the subject of Israel, our favorite blogger...

TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 28, 2023

...adopted a slightly odd tone: As readers will know, we've often described Kevin Drum, late of Mother Jones, as our favorite blogger.

We long for the day when we get to see a fuller discussion of his lengthy cover report for that magazine about the so-called "lead-crime hypothesis."

That cover report appeared in the January 2013 issue of Mother Jones, with a great deal of blogging to follow. Ten years later, we're still waiting for a fuller excavation of the fascinating suggestions it contained.

We don't think Drum is always right—but then again, neither is anyone else. That said, we thought one recent post by Drum was perhaps a bit strange in its tone.

It dealt with a very sensitive topic. Headline included, the initial post went like this:

Israelis and Arabs have both acted abominably over the years

I know this is hardly a brilliant insight, but I continue to be sort of stunned by how absolutist Americans are—or seem to be, anyway—on the subject of Israel and its enemies. It hardly requires a scholar's dedication to nuance to understand that both sides have acted horrifically at various times over the past century. There are no heroes in this story and no clean hands.

I get that tribalism accounts for much of this, but the sins of both sides are so numerous and so appalling that it's hard to see how anybody can be a die-hard supporter of either one. The best I can bring myself to believe is that perhaps one side is slightly less repellent than the other.¹

¹In my view, Israel is the less horrible. But it's hardly a slam dunk.

This post dealt with a very sensitive topic in a largely imprecise way. In part for reasons of personal history, the somewhat curt tone of the post struck us as somewhat unhelpful.

Drum's post triggered a large number of comments, and he offered an UPDATE about the point he was trying to make. For ourselves, we'll offer this:

We don't think it's hard to understand the depth of feeling which has often surrounded this ongoing matter in the aftermath of October 7 To cite one basic example:

For many American Jews, the horror of the October 7 killings and kidnappings directly recalled the events of the Holocaust. It's also clear that many American Jews were greatly surprised by the number of college students and academics who were soon expressing a "pro-Palestinian" view with respect to Israel's military action in Gaza.

Quite plainly, many American Jews were deeply shocked by both sets of events. As for the devotion to Israel felt by many American Jews, Ruth Marcus offered this overview in her recent, deeply humane column for the Washington Post:

MARCUS (11/23/23): I was born in 1958, just 10 years after the establishment of Israel. The nation’s existence was new and tenuous; it was embattled, encircled by enemies committed to its destruction. It needed our support—our dimes diligently tucked into the cards we collected to plant trees in its fledgling forests.

My childhood memories are of the Six-Day War and the accompanying joy over access to the Western Wall; of the shock of the Yom Kippur War. I was walking back to synagogue to join my father for evening services that day when a neighbor stopped to ask: Had I heard the terrible news?

And, I am obliged to confess, the narrative of Israel’s founding that Jewish children of my generation were offered in Hebrew school and on trips to Israel was deeply misleading at best, tinged with anti-Palestinian bias at worst. This account utterly failed to acknowledge the expulsion of Palestinians from their homes in 1948 or consider Palestinians’ legitimate claims to a homeland. The tenor of our rabbi’s sermons, the discussions in my childhood home, were that Israel could do no wrong.

In that passage, Marcus describes the way Jewish kids of her generation were taught about a very important country—about a very important country which "could do no wrong." For the record, many American kids have been taught in a broadly similar way about the United States itself.

Marcus was taught that Israel "could do no wrong." Her daughters have come of age with a different set of understandings, she went on to say:

MARCUS (continuing directly): My children grew up in a different environment—more honest about the contours of the conflict, more complex in the nature of the political discussion, and more fraught. They have scarcely known an Israel without Netanyahu, which is to say an Israel whose aggressive settlement policy that has made a two-state solution increasingly unattainable, and an Israel that fails to treat Palestinians with fairness and dignity.

That's how it has been for Marcus' two daughters. But for many people of Marcus' generation, Israel was the country which emerged from the Holocaust with the purpose of providing the world's Jews with a homeland, full stop. 

Most people don't follow world events in great detail. It isn't surprising that many people of Marcus' generation, or that many people who are younger, may continue to hold the overall picture of this situation which Marcus associates with her upbringing.

For such reasons, it isn't surprising that many American Jews reacted to "pro-Palestinian" demonstrations with surprise and deep concern. That doesn't mean that it was helpful or wise when some major voices in our own blue tribe's cable punditry reacted to these events in some of the ways we saw on programs like Morning Joe and Deadline: White House.

Major pundits went on the air, seeming to say they had no idea why anyone could possibly adopt a "pro-Palestinian" viewpoint with respect to these ongoing events. 

"This is just so black and white stuff," one major pundit told Nicolle Wallace on the October 30 Deadline: White House. "There's no gray areas here." 

In largely murky fashion, he angrily complained about the way "the media"—he specifically named CNN and the New York Times—"are so quick to blame Israel" in the course of covering these events.

In fairness, Donny Deutsch was specifically comparing Israel to Hamas when he made those statements. But in one conversation after another, pundits railed against college students who were "pro-Palestinian" without offering any idea of the background which might underlie such viewpoints.

In her column, Marcus described some of the behaviors by Israel which helped inform her own daughters' sympathies for the Palestinian people. 

According to Marcus, she herself remained more heavily aligned with Israel—with its need to survive in a dangerous region and world. But she was willing to cite the events which had more heavily influenced the viewpoints of her own daughters—of her own Jewish daughters. 

On major cable news programs, blue tribe thought leaders made amazingly little effort to do any such thing. They railed against those college kids without offering any idea about the possible source of their possible viewpoints.

There's no one reaction to these recent events which can be said to be intellectually and morally perfect. It's also true that the blue tribe pundits we have in mind—we include the irate Joe Scarborough—have seemed to scale back their rhetoric in the past few weeks.

In real time, these pundits seemed to have no earthly idea why anyone might sympathize with the ongoing situation of the Palestinian people. Frequently, they almost seemed to be proud of their total incomprehension—and we're afraid that this attitude affects our current set of blue tribe pundits when they approach other topics too.

Could Donald J. Trump get elected next year? Yes, of course he could!

Like other blue tribe members, we see that as a massive point of concern. (Tens of millions of friends and neighbors disagree with us about that.) 

Tens of millions of friends and neighbors disagree with our assessment! But with that major concern in mind, the ongoing situation in Israel and Gaza has become a challenging topic for our own blue tribe—and so are several other major political and policy topics.

Donny Deutsche is Jewish. It isn't surprising that he was unmistakably deeply upset by the events of October 7, and by some of what followed.

In our view, it isn't surprising that he sounded like "a die-hard supporter" of Israel when he appeared on a range of programs, even including The View.

That said:

As we noted yesterday, Michael Dukakis ended up losing in 1988. As we blues proudly persist in our varied incomprehensions, we leave you again with a basic question:

Could such a thing happen again?

Tomorrow: Diversity can be hard


75 comments:

  1. Kevin also says:

    https://jabberwocking.com/louisiana-governor-wants-to-prosecute-women-who-seek-abortions/

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  2. The lead hypothesis was reported by but not originated by Drum, who is not a scientist. Somerby could have followed it himself. There are criticisms and controversies about it, including that correlations are there for some behavior but not others. I am tored of Somerby pretending Drum discovered it when he is a reporter of other people’s work.

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    1. Drum is a scientist and he did discover it.

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    2. nonsense, it is published in Europe by other people

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    3. Drum couldn't travel to Europe? International travel represents the boundless potential of what could be, and shapes our understanding of the world and driving us towards innovation and success. All of a sudden Americans can't draw correlations or participate?

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    4. Drum invented lead in his basement lab.

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    5. He can turn gold into lead.

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  3. "Quite plainly, many American Jews were deeply shocked by both sets of events."

    It's quite plainly dumb to divide people into "Jews" and "goys", Bob, assigning certain views to either bullshit category.

    Sadly, that's your liberal dumbness talking.

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    1. Sadly that’s your dumbness talking. FTFY

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  4. “As we blues proudly persist in our varied incomprehensions, we leave you again with a basic question:
    Could such a thing happen again?”

    No “blue” that I know of is unaware of the polls and the bad press that Biden is getting and the problem that presents for his re-election. And god knows we are all aware of his age.

    And the treatment of Biden by the press feels similar to the way they treated Gore. But back then, a certain blogger pointed out the press corps’ behavior. Now, Somerby writes day after day without mentioning how they undermine Biden’s candidacy, without the slightest examination of how the press treats Biden. There are misconceptions in the public about the economy and other issues that the press doesn’t bother to correct or are actively promoting. It isn’t magical thinking to try to support the man and provide positive reasons for re-electing him.

    And everyone know he’s “old.” But harping on that endlessly without showing his demonstrated capability as a leader is another way of undermining him.

    We will see how his re-election campaign conducts itself, but we don’t need another year and a half of “great jobs numbers: Bad for Biden?” And “despite claiming positive accomplishments, Biden just seems too old, according to latest poll.”

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    1. mh - polls can highlight the intrinsic uncertainty and multitude of possibilities in the fabric of elections but they are not absolute predictors.

      Once an incumbent was behind by 26 points in the polls. Everyone said 'quit', 'go home', 'don't try anymore because victory is impossible'.

      The year? 2011
      The candidate? Barrack Hussein Obama

      There is no reason to think Biden won't do the same as he is equally loved and really at this point a better public speaker than Obama.

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    2. Biden is better looking, too.

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    3. And he smells better.

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    4. All young men want to be like Biden. And all young women want to be his lover.

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    5. He loves children.

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    6. On the Money Mh. And we should note MSNBC had hardly leaned to either side, have have been more balanced than many.
      This mess of a Blog post is typically sloppy (could he just link to his long reaction to Ruth Marcus, rather than rehashing it?) which starts with the implication that liberals aren’t listening to the other side ( which one? ) and then smacks it’s lips over a Trump reelection. Bob may not fully want this, I guess, but if he can sell it as a case of liberals being meanies, I’m sure it’s fine with him.

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    7. "This mess of a Blog post is typically sloppy"

      And yet you continue to read this blog and to bitch about it. Go figure.

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    8. If I didn't, no one would be here to point out he could have provided a direct hyperlink to Ms. Marcus's work as opposed to recapitulating her content. And the fanboys would think that sort of thing is normal and not at the behest and benefit of Russia.

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    9. Corby is adorable.

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    10. I love that! Somerby's failing to hyperlink to an article proves that he's paid by Putin! You, sir or ma'am, are a nut.

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    11. Dogface crybaby. Make a case for this being anything but a hodgepodge of unrelated sort of points that leads back to …. you tell me?

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    12. Mice keep asking me to summarize Somerby's essays for them. Seems like an admission that they may have some reading comprehension difficulties.

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    13. If you think that’s what 2:07 asked, you have the reading problem. I think 2:07’s summary of today’s essay is spot on.

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    14. Doggy Dog, you call people liars and can’t back it up. “Where does he say that?” You chime in daily over blog posts where Bob says the thing you are denying thru the whole post. When asked for your take, you of course can’t answer. Then you call other people cowards. Maybe it’s you who are on somebody’s payroll.

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    15. You’re so astute! Yes, I’m cashing big checks from Putin and living the life!

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  5. Jews hate grass. They always have.

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    1. We must carefully distinguish Jews from Israelis. My Jewish diaspora friends like grass. Israelis like to mow the lawn.

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  6. What do Israelis think about a two-state solution? What do they think about the USA?

    https://www.eschatonblog.com/2023/11/lalalala-i-cant-hear-you.html

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    1. The phrase "two-state solution" is a logical fallacy called "begging the question" or "assuming the conclusion" The phrase assumes that having two states would be a solution to the conflict. But, IMO that's not the case.

      Having a separate state would not change the factors that are maintaining the current dynamics. Most Palestinians have been trained to hate Israel. It's to Iran's benefit to continue to provoke enmity toward Israel among the Palestinians. A separate state would leave the real causes intact.

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    2. Israel trains Palestinians to hate Israel.

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    3. Israel didn’t attack itself on 10/7.

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  7. I agree that neither side is perfect on this issue. However, the Palestinians have refuse many deals over the years. Bill Clinton almost had one. But when these deals fail Israel turns more conservative and elects jerks like Netanyahu.
    It is important to remember that Israel did not attack itself on October 7.

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  8. Luke at No More Mister Nice Guys blog makes a good point: President Biden is closer in age to Rosalynn Carter than he is to Barack Obama.

    Or Kamala Harris or the average American. Biden is 43 years older than the average American. And the media obsesses on this fact as if it is relevant. Americans are yearning for a 2nd Biden term. Yet crickets from Somerby.

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    1. I am 81 years old, but that doesn't mean I want an 81 year old President. There's a reason why I'm retired. I've slowed down physically and mentally.

      Also, the next President will be in office through early 2029. By then, Biden will be 86. That's too old.

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    2. Yes, we see your mental decline.

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    3. You really really don’t want Trump. Biden will be assisted by capable sane staff. Not Trump. He used them all up in his first term.

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    4. When the president dies or is unable to serve the VP tales over. Kamala Harris is 50ish.

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    5. Yes, extremely good job. He's super-brilliant in economics, international relations, and military strategy.

      Without Biden, we would be lost. It'd be catastrophic.

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    6. Biden's age sends a message, even an unconscious message, that something is wrong. It begs the question why and there isn't a good answer.

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    7. Between the "unconscious messages", and inflation feeling like it's out of control, despite the reality of the inflation rate falling, I'm starting to get the impression the Right doesn't despise "feelings" as much as they cosplay they do.

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    8. The right are vermin.

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    9. An old-age president will not be needlessly distracting professional experts (and the AI) from doing their jobs. By asking stupid questions and making stupid suggestions.

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    10. If Obama were president at the same age Biden is proposing he would be president, Obama would be president in the year 2046.

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    11. @3:38 “There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers.” That’s what I was told by a noted Professor.

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    12. Above comment from D in C

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    13. Mick Jagger is 80 years old and will be launching a rock and roll tour next year. Donald Trump wears diapers. Go fuck yourself, David.

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    14. 80 is old, but voters feel Biden is young.
      What matters is how the voters feel.

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    15. There are certainly stupid questions, David.

      I've head that one fool can ask more questions in an hour than a hundred wise men can answer in seven years.

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    16. @4:31 PM
      It doesn't matter how the voters feel. What matters is who gets to count the votes.

      As president Biden wisely said: "Who counts the vote? That’s what this is about."

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    17. People see Biden and think "why on earth is that really old man president?".

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    18. And here’s how they plan to subvert the election: The Georgia Republican Party, the state legislature has now given itself the power to make it easier for partisan actors — their cronies — to remove local election officials.

      Think about that. What happened in the last election? The former president and allies pursued, threatened, and intimidated state and local election officials.

      Election workers — ordinary citizens — were subject to death threats, menacing phone calls, people stalking them in their homes.

      Remember what the defeated former president said to the highest-ranking election official — a Republican — in this state? He said, quote, “I just want to find 11,780 votes.”

      Pray God. (Laughter.) He didn’t say that part. (Laughter.)

      He didn’t say, “Count the votes.” He said, “find votes” that he needed to win.

      He failed because of the courageous officials — Democrats, Republicans — who did their duty and upheld the law. (Applause.)

      But with this new law in Georgia, his loyal- — his loyalists will be placed in charge of state elections. (Laughs.) What is that going to mean? Well, the chances for chaos and subversion are even greater as partisans seek the result they want — no matter what the voters have said, no matter what the count. The votes of nearly 5 million Georgians will be up for grabs if that law holds.

      It’s not just here in Georgia. Last year alone, 19 states not proposed but enacted 34 laws attacking voting rights. There were nearly 400 additional bills Republican members of state legislatures tried to pass. And now, Republican legislators in several states have already announced plans to escalate the onslaught this year.

      Their endgame? To turn the will of the voters into a mere suggestion — something states can respect or ignore.

      Jim Crow 2.0 is about two insidious things: voter suppression and election subversion. It’s no longer about who gets to vote; it’s about making it harder to vote. It’s about who gets to count the vote and whether your vote counts at all.

      It’s not hyperbole; this is a fact.

      Look, this matters to all of us. The goal of the former president and his allies is to disenfranchise anyone who votes against them. Simple as that. The facts won’t matter; your vote won’t matter. They’ll just decide what they want and then do it.

      That’s the kind of power you see in totalitarian states, not in democracies.

      We must be vigilant.
      Remarks by President Biden on Protecting the Right to Vote

      Go fuck yourself, troll boy 4:57.

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    19. Biden is the answer to the question who can we run as president that is 4 years older than the guy who was president was 31 years ago?

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    20. There have always been both older and younger presidents.

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    21. Yes, people see Biden, but the presidency is not a beauty contest. It is about what the president can do, so look at Biden’s recent accomplishments dealing with difficult challenges, such as covid, the economy, and world conflicts in Ukraine & Israel.

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    22. Biden is doing such a great job, his critics are focusing on his age.

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    23. People look at Biden and ask 'why is that really old man president?', then they hear him speak and are like "FUHHHH, that man is a fossil, what's up? Why is he President?'

      And we're supposed to tell them he is the only person we could come up with that can solve problems????? You high?

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  9. During his term, Donald Trump had an unscheduled visit to Walter Reed Hospital on a Saturday, where they proceeded to ask him to identify the silhouettes of zoo animals. It went something like this: "That's right, Mister President, it's a giraffe! You can go back to your job as leader of the Free World now." The press has failed miserably by letting that incident pass without serious questions asked, repeatedly.

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    1. Unamused — what do you thing this event shows?

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    2. I think it strongly suggests that Trump had an episode in which his mental faculties were impaired. He likely had an MRI of his brain while there, to assure no evidence of a space occupying lesion or stroke. My opinion on the health of the two frontrunners is that Biden has Parkinson's and Trump has dementia.

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    3. How does your anecdote suggest that "Trump had an episode in which his mental faculties were impaired"? It seems, rather, that your mental faculties might be impaired. TDS is a serious disease.

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  10. The reason inflation feels higher than the current number is that people's memory goes back more than a year. E.g., my lunch this week cost $40 for a dish that used to cost $25. Those looking at current inflation can tell me that the rise in costs didn't happen in the last 12 months. it mostly happened 2 or 3 years ago. But, my reaction is that I don't care about the specific timing the price increase. What I see is that I paid $40 for what used to be a $25 lunch.

    There is also confusion when we talk about the 2nd derivative. The inflation rate is the 1st derivative of the price. The change in the inflation rate is the 2nd derivative. Most people focus on the change in the price, not the change in the change in the price. In other words, most people would feel that inflation is coming down when the lunch again costs $25, not when the price continues to rise above $40, but at a slower rate.

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    1. You are wasting you time, David: Democrats are too dumb to understand this. I already tried to explain it a couple of days ago.

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    2. David is right. President Biden would be wise to induce a severe recession, with 10% unemployment, so he can return to buying his $25 lunches at his favorite restaurant.

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    3. When the price is not changing, its derivative is zero. When it changes, it’s discontinuous and not differentiable.

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    4. @6:48 deciphering your snarky comment, you seem to be saying that we should appreciate Biden for the booming economy we’re in. That’s a good point. However, IMO Biden should focus less on supposed low inflation.It. comes across as gaslighting.

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    5. DiC - 6:28's point is correct. You're calling for deflation, which is very, very, very bad. That $40 lunch only goes to $25 if the restaurant can't get customers at $40, so then can't pay its employees, who then can't buy groceries, etc.

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    6. 6:48's point

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    7. Suppose I want to buy a bowling ball. If I think it'll cost less tomorrow, I won't buy it today. And if tomorrow I think it will cost less the day after, I won't buy it then, either.

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    8. Unless you really need to go bowling.

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  11. While the price of a meal may have gone up a dollar or a few since Covid, there is something awry in a story about the cost of a lunch increasing 60% in a few short years. Let's say 3. So what is the inflation rate for that meal, a 60% increase in price in 3 short years? That would be about 17.5% annually. If true, there are 2 conclusions to be made about this: 1) Biden is not responsible in any way for that large price increase, since it is not a reflection of the cost of goods or transportation. 2) DIC doesn't care much one way or another about the cost of a meal, or he would not frequent a restaurant that is expensive and likely price-gouging. Or maybe he hangs out with David Brooks.

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  12. unamused - your first conclusion may be correct, but Presidents tend to get credit or blame for economic conditions, whether deserved or not.

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  13. @David
    "What I see is that I paid $40 for what used to be a $25 lunch."

    Yes, but what's more important is that people also see their real wages and real income falling.

    The official number I saw was the median real family income ~4% down since 2020, but in reality it's probably more like 10%.

    Serious shit.

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    1. With the low unemployment numbers, workers still have leverage over capital, despite the FED's work to undo that with higher interest rates.

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