THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 30, 2023
In search of "a world we can live in:" As we noted yesterday, it isn't hard to understand the depth of Donny Deutsch's concern.
As we noted, the depth of his concern emerges from disastrous historical roots. We'll quote his words again:
DEUTSCH (10/30/23): I want to draw the line back to why Israel is in the defensive posture after being attacked because it's about antisemitism, and it's about the hate toward Jews that's now surfacing in this country.
[...]
Every Jew I know is calling me and is terrified for the first time in their life about being Jewish. They feel it. When you are a generation away from the Holocaust, from the annihilation of six million Jews, being Jews there's something that goes from generation to generation. And people are feeling something in their stomachs in this country that we've never felt before. And they're terrified...
As you can see by clicking this link, his comments continued from there.
Deutsch was referring to one of the greatest moral disasters in human history—to a giant mass homicide which took place within the memory of living people. The depth of his feeling makes perfect sense—but very deep feeling, however understandable, can sometimes cloud our persistently fallible human judgment.
To our ear, Deutsch was possibly sunk in a certain type of incomprehension as he spoke on Deadline: White House that day. So too as he discussed this topic on other programs, even including The View.
To cite one trivial but apparently clearcut example, at one point he offered this as he spoke with Nicolle Wallace:
DEUTSCH: There's something that, for some reason, evil is not graded the same way when it's against Jews, and it's against Israel. And I don't understand that.
I do— Actually, I do actually understand it.
WALLACE: What is it?
DEUTSCH: Antisemitism. There's something about, for some reason, Jews as a group—there's 15 million in the world; there would have been 250 million without the Holocaust—for some reason, since the beginning of time—and I'm actually getting upset—it's somehow OK to go after these people in a way that no other people—
I don't— I'm not a history student. I just know the history.
For the record, we aren't history students either. That said, based upon our own knowledge of history, we'd judge that account of this history to be (essentially) accurate.
Deutsch specifically said he was getting upset. There's no reason why he shouldn't have felt that way.
That said, we were puzzled:
Was that highlighted demographic statement actually accurate? No, the number doesn't exactly matter. But would there be 250 million Jews in the world today had the Holocaust never happened?
We fact-checked the figure as best we could. Based upon actual academic estimates, that number seems to be massively wrong. We'll offer this link to the Washington Post, though other links exist.
It's an utterly trivial point, but it calls attention to a certain fact. When we feel very deeply about some subject, we may be even more inclined to accept and promulgate misassessments than we humans normally are.
Some such misassessments will be trivial. Other misassessments may not be.
It's very easy to understand the depth of Deutch's feelings. In this morning's New York Times, a major political figure describes a similar set of reactions to the events of October 7, and to certain aspects of the events which have followed.
That political figure is Chuck Schumer, the Senate majority leader. He writes a guest essay in today's Times—a guest essay which is supported by a New York Times editorial, and by a news report.
Because Chuck Schumer is a person, his feelings and reactions are important. Many people share those feelings. Here's part of his guest essay, online headline included:
Chuck Schumer: What American Jews Fear Most
[...]
When I was a boy, I learned what happened when the Nazis invaded my family’s town in Ukraine. The Nazis ordered my great-grandmother to gather her extended family on the porch of her home. When the Nazis told her to come with them, she refused, and they gunned her down, along with 30 members of her family, from 85 years old to 3 months old.
When I heard the story of what Hamas and its allies did in Kibbutz Be’eri, where they killed more than 120 Jews, from the elderly to babies, it struck me on a deeply personal level.
Most Jewish Americans have similar stories—stories that we learned at a young age and will stay imprinted on our hearts for as long as we live.
We see and hear things differently from others because we understand the horrors that can follow the targeting of Jewish people. We’ve learned the hard way to fear how such attacks can easily erupt into widespread antisemitism if they are not repudiated. I am sure Arab Americans have similar fears when they see the rise in Islamophobia and horrific crimes like the gut-wrenching murder of the 6-year-old Wadea Al-Fayoume.
The story Schumer tells in that passage is the same story Donny Deutsch told. Obviously, that story is deeply important.
Do most Jewish Americans have similar family stories? We don't know the answer to that. But it isn't hard to understand the feelings and reactions Schumer describes in his essay.
Schumer's essay is accompanied today by one the editorial board's increasingly rare editorials. The headline on that editorial says this:
A Doctor Who Left Russia Remembers the Pain of Antisemitism
Schumer's essay is also reinforced by a news report in the National section. The report describes a speech Schumer made just yesterday, in the Senate. Online, the dual headlines on the news report say this:
Schumer Condemns Antisemitism, Warning the Left Against Abetting It
The majority leader and highest-ranking Jewish official in the country cautioned progressives and young people against unwittingly embracing bigotry in the name of social justice.
It's certainly true that progressives, young people and "the left" should try to avoid "unwittingly embracing bigotry in the name of social justice."
So should everyone else. Having said that, we'll add this:
Older people can sometimes make unwitting errors in judgment too. That's even true of good, decent people like Schumer and Deutsch—good, decent people whose feelings and reactions are thoroughly understandable, given the vicious history from which those reactions stem.
Was Deutsch perhaps involved in a type of incomprehension when he spoke to Wallace that day? For whatever it may be worth, it seemed to us that he was.
Is it possible that Senator Schumer, a good, decent person, is failing to see a larger picture in the essay he offers today? Especially given some recent events right here in this country, that strikes us as possible too—and it seems to us that this arguably imperfect assessment could imaginably make an extremely difficult situation just a little bit worse.
We'll speak to that question tomorrow. For today, it will have to be as we recently noted:
"Make a world that we can live in," an iconic song implores. What would be the best way for good and decent elders—for good, decent people like Schumer and Deutsch—to help the world's "young people" build that more livable world?
Inevitably, some of those younger people may have very limited judgment. That said, we humans all have limited judgment.
We humans have imperfect judgment. Working from that starting point, what's the best way to take things from there?
Tomorrow: Disregarded peoples
Two Palestinian gunmen opened fire on a bus stop outside Jerusalem today, killing 3 people. Because that’s what they do. Never mind the ceasefire.
ReplyDelete"Because that’s what they do."
DeleteWho, the Semites?
No, the Palestinian extremists. Can’t you read?
DeleteAh, the Palestinian extremists? But not any other extremists?
DeleteNo, I can't yet read your mind, Corby.
Breaking the ceasefire and shooting three innocent people at a bus stop was done by Palestinians not Israelis. Blaming Israel for something else does not absolve that shooting.
DeleteSimilar thing happened earlier in the week, an American opened fire on 3 Palestinians walking down the street.
DeleteI guess the innocent civilians of Burlington Vermont are now going to get the shit bombed out of them?
The guy who shot those students also abused his ex-girlfriend. Violence against women is the strongest predictor of random and mass shootings. In this specific case, it may be that the shooter targeted these students because Gaza is in the news right now. Hate crimes against both Jews and Muslims have increased with the crisis in the news.
DeleteIf you confuse the situation in Vermont with Gaza and cannot see the difference between them, then your question might make sense, but otherwise you are just complaining about Israel bombing Gaza without trying to understand anything about why those students were targeted. I think they deserve better than that.
It is not true that strong feeling necessarily clouds judgement. Thinking is relatively slow whereas emotion is fast, if quick response is needed, as in a survival-related situation. Emotion recruits the body’s resources for action (via autonomic response and hormone release) whereas cognition does not. Thinking & feeling work together, not antagonistically. Somerby’s ideas about emotion are outdated and incorrect based on science. That’s because Somerby knows very little about psychology, much less neuroscience. He doesn’t know about cognition either. It doesn’t stop him from saying incorrect things here, but he should have more humility about his ignorance.
ReplyDeleteCorby is adorable.
DeleteIf our judgement were “persistently fallible” are Somerby says, we would be extinct as a species long ago. Judgement allow is to adapt to changing circumstances. Something many other species cannot do. Somerby is writing foolish stuff today. Since our judgement is not typically so bad, I have to wonder what his motive is and why he is misleading hos readers once again. What goal is achieved by telling us lies?
DeleteCorby is adorable.
DeleteThinking and feeling don't together according to studies.
DeleteYou are incorrect about that. Read something modern and scientific.
DeleteCorby - In one post, you attribute Somerby's "ideas about emotion" to ignorance; in another, you state they are lies, which implies knowledge. Does the fact that you offer contradictory theories in consecutive posts cause you any cognitive dissonance?
Delete(For what it's worth, I think the idea that strong emotion can cloud judgment is well within the experience of any normal human being, and your attempt to dispute it based on "science" lacks persuasive force, at least to me.)
It's not necessarily true thinking and feeling work together.
DeleteHe does not offer contradictory theories.
DeleteHe offers two notions:
1) “It is not true that strong feeling necessarily clouds judgement.”
2) “If our judgement were “persistently fallible” are Somerby says, we would be extinct as a species long ago. Judgement allow is to adapt to changing circumstances.”
These are not contradictory.
Neither is saying that Somerby is ignorant of science about thinking and emotions, while also saying Somerby is aware that the claim ‘human judgement is persistently fallible’ is false, merely by observing the continuing existence of our species.
It’s trivial that one can be ignorant and lie.
One can appreciate you admitting you find his ideas unpersuasive, in part because this is a common trait among certain personalities, particularly among those where emotions play an outsized role over rationality.
Since your emotions apparently do not play any outsized role over your rationality, do you really think that Somerby lied - he lied - by saying human judgment is persistently fallible?
DeleteWhat did Somerby actually say? He said, "very deep feeling, however understandable, can sometimes cloud our persistently fallible human judgment."
DeleteHow did Corby characterize this statement? Corby said, "It is not true that strong feeling necessarily clouds judgement."
So, we begin with a Corby mischaracterization. Somerby says "sometimes"; Corby implies that Somerby said "necessarily." So who, exactly, is lying?
It is not true that human judgement is “persistently fallible”.
DeleteRead any history book.
DeleteA fine speech by Schumer. My fellow progressives should pay attention and not as some at an Oakland city council meeting, say that IDF killed Israelis.
ReplyDeleteFriendly fire.
DeleteNo, the so-called "Hannibal Directive".
DeleteI discussed bigotry with Korbi. We’re against it.
ReplyDeleteI'm against it, too. I am Corby.
DeleteOnly trolls are Corby these days.
DeleteThis is a possibly useful rumination as far as it goes. But Bob has overused his “good, decent person” thing so often it’s hard to tell when he is being sarcastic or (in this case, I think) not. His bad writing has cornered his own ability to do good work.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, Graham Nash was in the Hollies too. They had some great singles.
I don’t think Somerby is being sarcastic when he calls someone good and decent. I think he’s emphasizing their humanity.
DeleteSomerby is suggesting all lapses in judgement are equal becausethey are mistakes and people make mistakes. I disagree.
DeleteSomerby nowhere suggests that all lapses in judgment are equal.
DeleteHe implies it when he uses the same excuse for all lapses. I said that already. Think before commenting, Doggie.
DeleteSomerby does not imply that all lapses in judgment are equal. It's just flat-out ridiculous for you to say that he does.
DeleteSaying "all people have lapses in judgment" is not equivalent to saying "all lapses in judgment are equal." Duh.
DeleteTo be fair, Somerby typically uses the “good and decent person” shtick to absolve him for making sweeping attacks against a person or a cohort with little to no evidence or coherency. Having said that, to 1:51’s point, Somerby is, to a certain extent, collapsing all lapses in judgement, not necessarily equating on the outcome but on the cause. Being charitable, Somerby does this to question how we perceive those who make such mistakes, but he does not apply this equally to all, instead reserving it mostly for his preferred group.
DeleteSomerby doesn’t know most of the people he calls good and decent. So how does he know?
DeleteAlso, after having written several years ago that liberals exude a moral squalor and that they engage in virtue signaling and throw black kids under the bus, that doesn’t sound like he’s describing good and decent people. In that case, saying someone is good and decent comes off sounding like mockery, or “damning with faint praise.”
It starts to sound like Antony at Caesar’s eulogy, continually repeating “but Brutus is an honourable man”, when he means no such thing.
Correct 4:51, though that is indeed a charitable reading.
DeleteAlso correct, Mh. It would be surprising if Bob himself knows the degree of sincerity he is applying to the use of “good and decent” phrase now.
DeleteDeutsch probably meant 25 million not 250 million. Maybe he misspoke or perhaps he misread something. A lot of books and articles have been written about not having a feel for numbers. There is even a word for it: innumeracy.
ReplyDeleteI had trouble understanding Bob’s point here. To me, he seemed to be minimizing the impact of anti-semitism. Did anyone else read it this way?
ReplyDeleteThe main point is about how personal and historical experiences with antisemitism shape the views and emotions of people like Donny Deutsch and Chuck Schumer.
DeleteWhen someone or groups of someones repeatedly say they want to kill you believe them.
DeleteI read it that way.
DeleteI don't believe that Somerby was minimizing the horror of antisemitism. I think he was pointing out that when we feel very deeply about a subject, such as the horror of antisemitism, we find that we are more inclined than usual to "accept and promulgate misstatements."
Delete"misassessments"
DeleteEmotion clouds reason. Mr. Spock could tell you that.
DeleteIt’s not the emotions that matter. Emotions are not the root cause that drives the rhetoric and action Somerby calls out. 12:36 makes the point that it’s the “personal and historical experiences”.
Delete1:01 both sides say the same thing; one side has all the power, the other side has nearly no power by being oppressed by the side that has all the power.
Emotions primarily fuel the actions highlighted by Somerby.
DeleteEmotions arise from thoughts, including attitudes and beliefs, and those thoughts fuel the actions and choices people make.
DeleteSpock is a cartoon character in a sci fi show from before the neuroscience studies that are important to emotion research. He embodies mistaken ideas from the 1800s and earlier from guys like Descartes who hypothesized a mind-body split (with emotion part of the body and reason in the mind, shared with God). It is pure bunk.
Emotion does not cause mistaken thinking. Reason without emotion can lead to huge mistakes, such as putting people in boxcars and sending them to camps, a cold-blooded logical decision if you are a nazi who thinks Jews cause the world's problems. Lots of mistaken beliefs there, operating without emotion (no empathy for example).
Somerby is ignorant and confused about how emotion works with thinking and what emotion is good for -- the survival advantage it gives us, the reason we evolved as emotional beings.
A passionate antisemite might be more dangerous than a calm one, but (1) emotion didn't make anyone an antisemite, (2) being calm while doing evil doesn't make that evil less evil.
Emotion combined with reason often results in the gravest errors of humanity.
Deletebullshit
DeleteLook at the French Revolution. It was driven by rational ideas of liberty and equality and quickly spiraled into the Reign of Terror fueled by the emotions of revenge and hatred.
DeleteI could give you tens of thousands more examples if you would like.
Somerby is worrying about pro-Palestinians being mistaken for anti-semites while Schumer is upset about the rise in real antisemitism aimed at American Jews in our country. Somerby thereby minimizes the terror induced by terrorism, pretending emotion is bad. Somerby has no clue what it is like to be targeted by pogroms, a holocaust and recent mass shootings. It is right to ask college students to tone down their rhetoric in that contexts, to avoid giving white supremacists and nazis the idea that it is hunting season. Somerby is incredibly tone deaf today and I see little excuse for it, other than concluding that Somerby is not a good decent person when he responds like this to Schumer & Deutsch.
ReplyDeleteIn this post, Somerby seems unconcerned about the conflation of pro-Palestinian supporters with anti-Semites, whereas Schumer is actually indifferent to the decrease in actual pro-Israel acts targeting other anti-American Jews within the nation.
DeleteMeanwhile, MSNBC has cancelled Mehdi Hasan’s show, which is a damned shame. An actual media critic might talk about that. Crickets from Somerby.
ReplyDeleteWhy would a media critic talk about that?
DeleteBecause it is a questionable choice when major cable news networks eliminate important voices, especially in the midst of a crisis like the one in Gaza.
DeleteOperation 27:
ReplyDeleteContact liaison: Fanny Blofart