CANDIDATES: Candidates say the darnedest things!

MONDAY, SEPTEMBER 23, 2024

The bottom of the barrel: Sometimes, presidential campaigns involve discussion of "the issues."

This may not be one of those years! Within the journalistic realm, we don't think we've seen a serious discussion break out about any of the basic issues which lie, at least in theory, at the heart of the current campaign.

(More on that to come.)

That said, our presidential campaigns always involve candidates. This year, we have the standard four, one of whom recently made this remarkable claim about life in Springfield, Ohio:

VANCE (9/15/24): I'm talking to my constituents and I'm hearing terrible things about what's going on in Springfield, and Kamala Harris' open border policies have caused these problems.

The hospitals are overwhelmed, Dana. The schools are overwhelmed. The local services are completely overwhelmed. You have people who can't afford housing. 

Homelessness has gone up. Murders are up by 81 percent because of what Kamala Harris has allowed to happen to this small community.

I'm going to keep on talking about that. 

It's (almost) hard to believe, but so said Candidate Vance, speaking to Dana Bash on CNN's State of the Union

Early in the interview, the candidate hotly defended his previous comments about the eating of cats and dogs by Springfield's Haitian residents. Then he made the highlighted claim:

There has been a large rise in murders in Springfield, Ohio "because of what Kamala Harris has allowed to happen."

Speaking to Bash on State of the Union, that's what the candidate said.

Full disclosure! We discern a lack of perfection in all four current candidates. Presumably, the same situation obtained at the dawn of the modern political era, when the four candidates were these:

The candidates in 1960:
John F. Kennedy: United States Senator from Massachusetts
Richard M. Nixon: Vice President of the United States 
Lyndon B. Johnson: Senate majority leader; "Master of the Senate"
Henry Cabot Lodge: Former United States Senator from Massachusetts; United States Ambassador to the United Nations, 1953-1960

They were the candidates at the dawn of the era. It was a highly accomplished group, except perhaps at the top of the tickets!

Back to Candidate Vance:

As he spoke with Bash, the candidate had hotly defended his claims about the eating of pets— about the alleged eating of pets by Springfield's Haitian residents. His campaign had already been told that these inflammatory claims were bogus, but he hotly defended what he'd said, and he said he planned to continue making such claims.

Also, there was this:

The candidate also stated a claim about a very large rise in murders—about a very large rise in murders in Springfield, all because of what Candidate Harris had done.

As the anthropologist Cummings once noted, we human beings can behave very poorly. To appearances, this candidate was now engaged in misbehavior which almost defies belief.

For starters, Candidate Harris had little or nothing to do with the presence of Haitians in Springfield, Ohio. In fairness, this elementary fact is too complex to play a role in our nation's extremely primitive political discourse.

For that reason, let's ignore that elementary fact! We're left with the claim about a very large rise in murders, allegedly caused by what Harris had supposedly done with respect to Springfield's Haitian residents.

To all appearances, Candidate Vance was deeply concerned about that rise in murders. But then, along came Daniel Dale, CNN's resident fact-checker.

Daniel Dale went ahead and fact-checked a set of facts. In all likelihood, the New York Times will never report what the gentleman found.

In our view, the headline on Dale's report completely buries the lede. It represents a type of distraction from the main thing Dale was reporting.

In our view, the headline was quite poorly conceived. Below, we present the key part of what Dale reported:

Fact check: Springfield had more murders under Trump than under Biden-Harris

[,,,]

Vance, the Republican vice presidential candidate, added a startling claim in a CNN television interview on Sunday: that Harris and the immigrant influx have caused a big spike in murder.

“I’m talking to my constituents and I’m hearing terrible things about what’s going on in Springfield, and Kamala Harris’ open-border policies have caused these problems,” Vance said. Moments later, he said, “Murders are up by 81% because of what Kamala Harris has allowed to happen to this small community.”

We looked into this claim and found it’s a good example of how statistics can be cherry-picked and misleadingly framed to serve unfounded narratives.

“During the time that I’ve been with the prosecutor’s office, which is 21 years now, we have not had any murders involving the Haitian community–as either the victims or as the perpetrators of those murders,” Daniel Driscoll, the Republican top prosecutor in Clark County, in which Springfield is the largest city, said in a Friday interview.

In 21 years, there has never been a murder involving the Haitian community! According to Dale, that's what Clark County, Ohio's top prosecutor said. 

In our view, Dale engaged in a large amount of over-explaining in his lengthy report. We've highlighted the only statement which actually matters with respect to the alleged rise in murders:

Dale's report focused on the candidate's claims with respect to murders in Springfield, Ohio. We've highlighted the place where the candidate's inflammatory claims seem to come to an end.

In the past 21 years, Haitian residents of Springfield, Ohio have never been involved in a murder! But then, along came one of the candidates in this year's presidential campaign.

In fairness, you can't blame Bash for being unable to challenge Vance during last Sunday's live interview. We do blame CNN for failing to call attention to what Dale later reported about this remarkably ugly pairs of claims by Vance. 

Quite plainly, he implied that there had been a large increase in murders because a bunch of Haitians were now living in Springfield. Also, he claimed that this large increase in murders had been caused by something Harris had done.

Those are the claims the candidate made. Assuming the accuracy of Dale's fact-check, those ugly claims are bunk.

The woods are lovely, dark and deep. Also this, as Cummings first reported:

We human beings are capable of extremely bad conduct.

We're going to spend the rest of the week looking at the candidates in this year's White House campaign. We're going to look at the way those hopefuls are being discussed by major parts of the press corps.

We'll even offer a brief overview of the way we view these candidates. We may compare this group with the group who appeared on the ballot at the dawn of the modern era.

This year, Candidate Vance is one of four. Assuming that Dale's report is accurate, he made an extremely ugly claim as he spoke to the nation last Sunday.

It isn't just that the Haitians have been eating Springfield's pets. Their presence in Springfield has also produced a very large increase in murders!

Almost surely, the New York Times won't report or discuss that second point. It seems to us that conduct like that should generate front-page reporting.

Assuming that Dale's reporting is accurate, it seems to us that one of the candidates has somehow managed to find his way to the bottom of the barrel. 

Given the way our discourse works, the New York Times—our greatest newspaper—is politely averting its gaze from that apparent fact. The spotless minds of us the people won't be asked to absorb it!

Tomorrow: Then and now


42 comments:

  1. Another question is what the basis of the claim that there has been an 81% increase in murders, period. From what number to what number? If there were few murders tp start with, a small increase in the numbers can reflect high percentage increase.

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    1. that's what I thought too, from one to two murders would be 100% increase...this is from a CNN factcheck:

      "Spokesperson William Martin said Vance was talking about official Ohio figures showing that Springfield had five murders in 2021 and nine murders in 2023. That four-murder increase is indeed an increase of 80%."

      For reference, Springfield's population was about 58,000 in 2022.

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    2. There were 33 murders in Springfield during Trump's term; there have been 22 during Biden's term.

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    3. No Haitian has been arrested for murder or been the victim of murder in Springfield.

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  3. So many statistical fallacies are committed by politicians.
    IMO the most common is post hoc ergo propter hoc. This is bad when there's no evidence that the subsequent event was caused by the prior event. It's more blatant when there IS evidence that the subsequent event was NOT caused by the prior event. E.g. Biden taking credit for economic improvement without factoring in the effect of the covid lockdowns.

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    1. President Biden's tremendous success managing the economic recovery from the dumpster fire he inherited from that piece of shit you support is really bugging your treasonous ass, isn't it Dickead in Cal?

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    2. IMO the most common is post hoc ergo propter hoc.

      Says TDH's World Champion little red rooster.

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    3. Speaking of COVID, DIC. Maybe the disaster that was the Trump administration can take a bow for a substantial part of that. Nonpartisan Kaiser study gave them credit for over 200,00 excess deaths and the Lancet study did similarly, attributing 40% of US COVID deaths to mismanagement by the Trump administration. But you want to talk about how great he did. Check your shoes because you may be stepping into some of what routinely comes out of your mouth. US deaths.Not the price of eggs, which Vance just lied about as well.

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    4. Who could ever forget the Loser trying to gaslight a viral pandemic, like it was some common New York Times political reporter?
      Trump is dumber than a box of rocks.

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    5. It is worse than Vance lying about the price of eggs, the two largest egg producers and other components of the egg industry were recently found liable in court for price fixing and antitrust conspiracy.

      Few economists actually understand inflation, Fed Chair Powell essentially copped to this a month ago. Economists have long since dispensed with overly simplified supply/demand nonsense that you learn in high school, they have sophisticated models, yet those models provide little explanatory or predictive value. In reality, inflation is primarily (not completely) the result of corporations attaining enough power to set prices arbitrarily.

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    6. Still sticking with the Nazi in the NC Gov race, Dickhead?

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    7. Stronger anti-trust/ anti-monopoly regulation and enforcement is the usual answer to inflation.
      In some rare cases, inflation can be caused by too much money in the economy. In those situations, the solution is for the government to increase taxes to get the excess money out of the economy, and bring down inflation.

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    8. "From growth and jobs to investment and business creation, the economy has performed substantially better under Biden than it did under Trump. Biden’s superior record holds even if we set aside the pandemic’s impact in 2020. The exception, of course, is inflation. But just as the COVID-19 pandemic led to the collapse in GDP and employment during Trump’s last year in office, it was also the main reason prices rose so much for a time here and globally, according to new analysis from the Federal Reserve."

      https://washingtonmonthly.com/2024/01/26/data-dont-lie-bidens-economic-record-is-much-better-than-trumps/

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    9. "E.g. Biden taking credit for economic improvement without factoring in the effect of the covid lockdowns." Kind of like when you blame Biden for high inflation, without factoring in the effect of the pandemic. Kind of like when you (and Trump) claim that anything good that happened during Trump's term was because of Trump, and anything bad that happened during Biden's term is not only Biden's fault but wouldn't have happened if Trump had been president -- like Hamas's attack on Israel.

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  4. A more subtle fallacy is refuting a claim by looking at only a single piece of the evidence. Vance elsewhere showed that crime was up in Springfield based on a series of statistics showing big increases in various classes of crimes, such as shoplifting and vehicle theft. His opponents picked out the weakest figure in the series and criticized Vance for presenting a claim that's so weakly supported by the numbers.

    IMO Vance's main problem is the post hoc fallacy. it's one thing to prove that crime is up, it's another to prove that the Haitian influx is the cause.

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    1. Another bogus refutation is a comparison to crime rates when Trump was President. That's a different period of time than the one Vance is referring to.

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    2. It's one thing to point out that dollar stores have replaced Mom and Pop shops in rural America. It's another thing to correctly point to Capitalism, not Socialism as being the cause.

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    3. We can all see what Vance is doing, Dickhead.

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    4. "His opponents picked out the weakest figure in the series and criticized Vance for presenting a claim that's so weakly supported by the numbers."

      OMG! No fair! They chose the claim where he was totally full of it and ignored the ones that were a little less clear cut!

      And comparing to Trump years? TOTALLY UNFAIR! Even if there were FEWER MURDERS during the Biden term than during Trump's term, BIDEN'S FAILED POLICIES ARE TO BLAME FOR...something.

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    5. Crime rates in Texas have come down annually since Biden took office. Per Texas statistics, not FBI. Those rapists and gang members that are flooding in must be solid citizens compared with the existing populance in Texas.

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    6. The fallacies here seem rather unsubtle to me. I believe it's called the 'Trump's Mind is a Sewer Fallacy':

      "Trump reposted a meme accusing Harris of being “involved with or engaged in one of Puff Daddies freak offs,” the sexual parties that form the basis of the recent federal indictment against the rapper.

      The post included a picture of Harris supposedly standing with Diddy and another woman. Except it was a clear photoshop. The real picture is of Harris and Montel Williams.

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    7. @2:27 It depends on which type of crime you're talking about. The rate of entering the country illegally skyrocketed in Texas since Biden took office.

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    8. They're sending people who don't commit murder as much as Americans do, don't commit as many rapes, don't rob and steal as much, and some, I assume are bad people.

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    9. David, the rate of entering the country illegally has greatly decreased since Biden took office and is now at a low for Biden's administration, below the rate during Trump's term.

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    10. @5:21 - weak talking point, for two reasons.

      1. The illegal immigrants shouldn't be here at all. If they were kept out, as the law requires, they would commit zero murders, rapes or robberies in the US.

      2. A better comparison is the crime rates of illegal immigrants vs legal immigrants who come in through the normal process. I would imagine that the carefully vetted legal immigrants have a lower crime rate. If we want more immigrants, the proper way is to increase the quota's of legal immigrants, rather than flaunt the law.

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    11. "A more subtle fallacy is refuting a claim by looking at only a single piece of the evidence." There's no fallacy in what Somerby did. There's no fallacy involved when someone simply fact-checks a specific claim using a single piece of evidence, if that single piece of evidence is sufficient to show the claim to be false. The specific claim Somerby refuted was the following:  "Murders are up by 81 percent because of what Kamala Harris has allowed to happen to this small community." 

      "Vance elsewhere showed that crime was up in Springfield based on a series of statistics showing big increases in various classes of crimes, such as shoplifting and vehicle theft." So your "logic" is as follows: Vance said something outrageously false. But elsewhere he said some things that AREN'T outrageously false. Therefore . . . what?? Therefore his outrageously false claim is ok?? Therefore Somerby is somehow wrong for calling out the outrageously false claim? So if Biden tells an outrageous lie, it's fine as long as elsewhere he DOESN'T lie? Got it.

      "IMO Vance's main problem is the post hoc fallacy. it's one thing to prove that crime is up, it's another to prove that the Haitian influx is the cause." Vance's main problem is that he's using incendiary, race-baiting, baseless claims to demonize a minority group to advance his political career, all while causing a bunch of unnecessary distress to the very community he claims to be helping.

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  5. "Full disclosure! We discern a lack of perfection in all four current candidates."

    Even morons know that perfection is not the standard for picking a president.

    Saying that all four candidates lack perfection doesn't make them equal. Why does Somerby say fatuous things like this?

    Further, saying there are four candidates when there are two may confuse people. No, Somerby is not talking about Jill Stein. He is referring to Harris, Walz, Trump, Vance. But Vance is not running against Harris and Trump is not running against Walz or Vance, just Harris.

    Somerby used to demand clarity. Now he does his own share of obfuscating with these poorly written sentences.

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    1. "Saying that all four candidates lack perfection doesn't make them equal. Why does Somerby say fatuous things like this?"

      He didn't. You did.

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    2. IMO the quality of all four candidates is substantially below the quality from many years ago. In terms of knowledge, experience, achievements, etc. I think back to Nixon-Humphrey. Nixon had great expertise and experience and a record of achievements. Humphrey knew and understood every issue in detail.

      I think this goes with the polarization. Most of us think that it's vitally important that our side win. So, personal quality is ignored. Or we pretend that our person is high quality. Republicans will vote for an incompetent moron, if that's who's running. And, vice versa.

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    3. imo the overall quality of Pres and VP candidates declined over time, in terms of knowledge, experience, achievements, etc. IMO the cause is extreme polarization. Most of us think it's so vital that our side win, so that quality is secondary. Each side believes that their defeat would mean the end of democracy. Republicans will vote for an incompetent moron, if that's who's running for them. And, vice versa.

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    4. Kamala is running a near-perfect campaign. The feeling is palpable.

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    5. I agree @4:59. It's a near-perfect campaign. Imo she will probably be elected, despite being weak at impromptu speaking, having expressed extreme liberal views, and a lack of significant achievements. I am preparing to say "President Harris."

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    6. 4:35 Complete rubbish.

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    7. I think back to Nixon-Humphrey. Nixon was very knowledgeable, graduated first in his class in law school and had significant achievements. Humphrey understood all the issues with depth he was able to talk in great detail about the important issues of the day.

      Or, Eisenhower-Stevenson. Stevenson was a highly respected, very intelligent Governor. Eisenhower, of course, played a key role in winning WW2.

      Or Dewey-Truman. Truman was a very successful President who had served as VP to a very successful President. Dewey was very respected and well thought of.

      The current candidates do not measure up to this people.

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    8. "Each side believes that their defeat would mean the end of democracy"

      True. The problem being only one party's belief has a factual basis.

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    9. David, Kamala Harris was elected District Attorney of San Francisco, Attorney General of the State of CA, and then Senator.

      Here are some of her accomplishments as Attorney General of CA:

      1. Joined 40 other state Attorney Generals in successfully suing banks to change flaw mortgage practices, that provided major homeowner relief.
      2. Opposed the death penalty, which was ultimately stopped in CA.
      3. Made important criminal justice reforms, including curbing recidivism, implementing body cameras, creating an open data initiative that included a dashboard that made public criminal justice data on arrests, in-custody deaths and officers killed or assaulted in the line of duty.
      4. Enacted anti-truancy measures.
      5. Supported environmental measures, including settlements with oil and natural gas operations violating state laws. Harris also defended in court California's Low Carbon Fuel Standard and the state's cap-and-trade program, which charges businesses for carbon emissions.
      6. Investigated for-profit colleges, notably Corinthian Colleges. Harris announced in 2016 that her office obtained a $1.1 billion judgment against Corinthian Colleges. In 2022, the U.S. Department of Education discharged debt for 560,000 borrowers who took out loans to attend Corinthian Colleges, totaling about $5.8 billion in student loan discharges.

      The only reason people think Harris has no accomplishments is that they don't bother looking them up.

      https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/news/what-to-know-about-kamala-harris-record-as-california-attorney-general/

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    10. Thanks @7:00 for the list. IMO most people don't consider them to be major accomplishments. That's why she isn't focused on them in her campaign. She's sensibly focused on Trump's flaws, of which there are many.

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    11. The accomplishments on that list are not groundbreaking or exceptional. It makes sense she would do everything she could to avoid talking about them.

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  6. "In our view, Dale engaged in a large amount of over-explaining in his lengthy report."

    You "overexplain" in order to leave disinformation-artists no loopholes to crawl through.

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