Part 4—Who were Johnson (and others): On Wednesday morning, the New York Times presented a fascinating profile of the late La David Johnson, who died this month in Niger.
Are Miami Gardens and Carol City full of great kids? This profile helps us see that Johnson was very much one of those kids—indeed, that he seems to have been a remarkable person.
Somewhat ironically, the profile starts with a lament. "[M]any who knew the slain soldier now lament that Sergeant Johnson’s story has gotten lost amid the flurry of criticism and accusations" concerning a famous condolence call, the profile says early on. In hard-copy, the profile appeared beneath this headline, which has an ironic strain:
"A Phone Call's Overlooked Subject: A Sergeant Who'd Found His Way"
As it turns out, this particular overlooked subject had brilliantly found his way out of a challenging personal background. He seems to have done so thanks to a lot of help from his elders, and thanks to his own attributes.
Who the heck was La David Johnson? We think you're asking an excellent question! Once they started addressing that question, two Times writers started with this:
ALCINDOR AND PHILIPPS (10/25/17): The bitter back and forth [about that phone call] is a marked contrast to his life, which family, friends and fellow soldiers say was characterized by kindness and an optimism that allowed him to rise above a tough upbringing, when so much around him seemed set on keeping him down.Johnson's mother died when he was 5. His father was largely absent.
Sergeant Johnson, who was 25 when he died, grew up in a gritty suburb with some of the highest crime and poverty levels in Florida—one of its few distinctions was having one of the highest police “stop and frisk” rates in the country. He watched his mother suffer for years with tuberculosis before she died when he was 5 years old. His father was mostly absent. His sister said that while many of his peers dropped out of school and drifted into crime, Sergeant Johnson remained focused and upbeat...
Despite these circumstances, was Johnson focused, upbeat, optimistic? More on that to follow! For now, let's examine the "kindness" found in this striking story, much of which came from Johnson's elders:
ALCINDOR AND PHILIPPS: Sergeant Johnson lived with an aunt and then an uncle after his mother’s death and joined a mentoring program for young neighborhood boys, called the 5000 Role Models of Excellence Project. Ms. Wilson, the founder of the program, remained close to the Johnson family and had accompanied his widow to greet his body when Mr. Trump called.His mother died when he was 5. But he was raised by an aunt and an uncle. Also, by a grandmother who "used to buy him" cars and trucks which he'd take apart and reassemble, according to his sister.
Frequent Facebook posts from 2010, the year he graduated from Miami Carol City Senior High School, and later show Sergeant Johnson’s life then largely consisted of shifts at Walmart, working out at the gym, going to church, cooking for his family and tricking out his green 1995 Toyota Corolla, adding neon lights and bone-shaking 15-inch speakers. “Small resume bout me,” he wrote on Facebook in 2012. “I don’t drink nor smoke, never got arrested, gotta job, got my own crib, got my own car, got my own music business, I love music.” He met his wife when he was 6 years old and later had her name tattooed across his chest.
“He always loved to have fun, laugh and joke around, and help others,” said Isaac Hodgeson, who was also in the mentoring program, and on the wrestling team with Sergeant Johnson.
He was also served by the mentoring program established by Rep. Frederica Wilson. We might think of that mentoring program as a version of Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Little League, 4-H—the kinds of programs that exist, all over the country, to serve boys from various backgrounds, with similar programs for girls.
To her eternal credit, Rep. Wilson made it a point to see that boys like La David Johnson were served in the way they deserved to be served. That said, it sounds this particular child brought a lot to the table:
ALCINDOR AND PHILIPPS (continuing directly): Posts from his life in Carol City also show he was stopped by the police repeatedly for little reason, but he never seemed to let it get him down. “Think Big. Think Positive. Think Smart. Think Beautiful,” he posted in 2012. That year he first tried to join the Army, but failed the language section aptitude test by a few points, according to a post. He studied and eventually passed.“Think Big. Think Positive. Think Smart. Think Beautiful?” Through some blend of temperament and helpful upbringing by good people, Johnson was recommending this approach in 2012, when he was 20 years old.
Because Sgt. Johnson's wife has been a central part of this story, it might be worth sampling the Times' portrait of Johnson's family life. Presumably, the help he received along the way contributed to this:
ALCINDOR AND PHILIPPS: Soon after [joining the army, Johnson] met Sergeant [Dennis] Bohler and both men and their wives became friends. Sergeant Bohler, who now lives in Fort Lee in Virginia, remembers driving around for hours in 2014 as Sergeant Johnson looked for a home before he finally decided to live on base. Their families often ate Sunday dinners together, with both Sergeant Johnson and his wife cooking Thanksgiving-style meals of ham, macaroni and cheese, and pies.Sgt. Johnson was excited to learn he and his wife would be having a girl! In the larger sense, how much of his upbeat approach to life came out of that mentoring program?
The couples celebrated when both wives found out they were pregnant with girls and due a few days apart. Sergeant Johnson and his wife, due in January, quickly began planning for the new baby and for life with their other two children, a young girl and boy.
“When he found out they were having a girl, he was very excited. He had already named the baby,” Angiline Bohler said, adding that Sergeant Johnson didn’t see the mission in Niger as dangerous because his first deployment went smoothly.
There's no real way to know that, of course, in part because no one cares. If you've spent as much as ten minutes observing the work of our upper-end press, you may have noticed that these organizations don't care about people like Johnson, except to the extent that their lives can be used to reinforce prevailing, preferred tribal narratives, as has happened here.
Across the country, the wider population isn't told about children like the child this upbeat person once was. In our lofty liberal warrens, you haven't read a word about that profile of Johnson, and you never will.
That's because, unlike people like Rep. Wilson, we liberals don't care about kids like Johnson. Think of the things you've never heard on our liberal entertainment channel, MSNBC:
According to our only reliable data, kids like Johnson have made remarkable academic gains in the past few decades. But so what? Across the country, people have never heard that encouraging, admirable fact, in large part because the people who run our upper-class news orgs completely, manifestly don't care.
(Also, because certain powerful elites prefer a contrary narrative, in which "nothing has worked" in our public schools thanks to our ratty public school teachers and principals with their fiendish unions. Rep. Wilson, who founded that mentoring program, was one of those public school principals before she ran for office.)
It's a blindingly obvious fact; our upper-end journalistic elites don't care about children like La David Johnson, age 10. That doesn't mean that these elites are bad people. It means that, like everyone else, they're limited people, "whom we knew as faulty, the earth's creatures."
We can think of three other people those elites don't care about. Their names are Black, Wright and (Jeremiah) Johnson. They're the three American soldiers who died with Johnson in Niger.
The Times says Johnson has been overlooked in all the hubbub of the past week. That said, a lot of attention has gone to Johnson; very little attention has gone to those who died with him. Can you imagine one of The Others, out in the country, being annoyed by that?
We can imagine that. We can also imagine criticism of Rep. Wilson, who, to her eternal credit, founded the mentoring program which presumably helped La David Johnson become the person he was.
We can imagine someone thinking that Rep. Wilson was tonally inappropriate at times when she gave that speech in 2015. We can imagine General Kelly thinking that, especially when we remember that his son had died in Iraq in 2010.
An FBI building was being dedicated that day to two FBI agents who had lost their lives years before. Relatives of one agent was present. We can imagine Kelly thinking that Rep. Wilson was perhaps out over her skis in some parts of her speech that day. We can imagine him thinking that she was a bit self-aggrandizing.
General Kelly's insulting behavior toward Rep. Kelly last week was extremely poorly considered. It would be a batter world if he had corrected and apologized his faulty factual statements. But we can imagine his general reaction to Rep. Wilson's speech.
We say these things because no one is perfect. There are no perfect messengers; that includes Rep. Wilson, who, to her eternal credit, founded and ran the mentoring program which gave Sgt. Wilson some of the help he deserved when he was a child who had lost his mother.
We'd love for The Ghost of Mentoring Programs Past to take General Kelly, and President Trump, to view the upbeat family dinners served by the upbeat young man Rep. Wilson was decent enough to help. We also would have liked it if Rep. Wilson had reminded us, last week, that three other lives were lost in Niger, and that those lives, which were perhaps being overlooked, were just as important, and just as valuable, as the life of their comrade, who Rep. Wilson had helped.
Large continental nations are well served when leaders possess the wisdom to do such things. Instead, Rep. Wilson got a bit hot at times last week. That was perfectly understandable, but it says she isn't a perfect messenger, as indeed no one is.
("Whom we knew as faulty.")
How are we in the liberal world seen by The Others, by the very bad, extremely racist people found Over There? Let's consider some cases:
In the immediate aftermath of Trayvon Martin's death, Rep. Wilson referred to it as a "murder." In our view, that wasn't necessarily the wisest thing to do. Can you imagine the way that might have looked, not necessarily incorrectly, to some of The Others?
In our view, it was less than perfect when Rep. Wilson voiced that instant prejudgment. That said, by historical norms, it was outrageous when Hillary Clinton used that same term to describe Martin's death in her new book, What Happened.
A duly constituted jury had long since ruled that Trayvon Martin's death wasn't a murder. Can you imagine how it may look to some of The Others, not necessarily incorrectly, when they see Clinton say things like that?
In a recent column, Paul Krugman—he's long been the liberal world's journalistic MVP—offered this assessment of Rep. Wilson's remarks in 2015:
"Video of the dedication shows...that Representative Wilson's remarks at the ceremony were entirely appropriate."
In our view, he overstated a bit. We can imagine how that overstatement might look to some of The Others. Can you imagine how that might look? Can you imagine that such a reaction isn't necessarily evil, racist or wrong?
Can you imagine how we're seen by Others? We're not asking if you agree with these Others, who we know to be very bad. We're asking if you can imagine the possibility that the way we're seen in these instances isn't necessarily wrong.
Just for the record, our tribe has created inaccurate narratives about an array of high-profile cases in recent years. We've invented facts, disappeared facts, and stressed completely irrelevant facts, all so we can tell our stories in the ways we like.
We've done this again and again and again; we've memorized our misstatements. Can you imagine how this might look to some of the people Over There? Can you imagine that The Others aren't necessarily wrong when they see us this way?
Trust us! None of our upper-end liberal stars care about Sgt. Johnson, or about the many other superb young people who have come up as he did. They tell you this by their constant silence. They also don't care about the three people who died along with him that day.
We've proved these things over and over and over again. On this basis, The Others imagine that they can see what we're actually like.
The Others imagine they can see what we're like. BREAKING: All too often, the way we're seen by Others isn't exactly "wrong."
The New York Times has profiled Johnson, an upbeat, optimistic young man who was lucky enough, as a child, to be helped by Rep. Wilson. What about The Others, though? Should they have been left behind?
The lives of the 4 US soldiers killed in NigerReplyDelete
By Holly Yan, CNN
In case you really cared to learn about all 4 young men, Mr. Somerby. But this CNN story just doesn't fit your narrative, does it?
That may be well and good. However, other than that one instance has there been similar coverage for the other three?Delete
Methinks you and other commenters are all too ready to jump on and find fault with anything Bob says, misinterpreting and overlooking the main point.
And what is that point, pray tell?Delete
"Should they have been left behind?"ReplyDelete
Why, no, not just 'left behind'. In reality, the liberal idiot-zombie dream is that each one of their meaningless 'identities' is proportionally represented in each social strata. That's their liberal paradise.
Therefore, in their perfect world a bunch of 'good identity' holders should move up, while a bunch of 'bad identity' holders (but none of the liberal idiots themselves, obviously) should move down, into the ghetto.
the 'liberal idiot zombie dream" is equal justice. Thanks to Trump and the elite establishment he represents, that "liberal idiot zombie dream" is further from our reach. Thanks Mao.Delete
Mischa, I see your paymaster is continuing his campaign to purge his critics and wipe out Ekho Moskvy even though his reelection is a foregone conclusion.Delete
That's your ilk's paradise.
While we still disagree with the "tone" detected by Somerby in Congresswoman Wilson's FBI speech, we agree at this time that it would have been better for her not to have brought up Trump's phone call to Johnson's widow. We agree that it would have been better to avoid this entire affair, and keep the focus on the four men who tragically died. There is no profit for progressives in this imbroglio.ReplyDelete
“I blame Hillary Clinton personally for the death of my son,”Delete
- Patricia Smith, the mother of one of the four Americans killed in the 2012 attack on the U.S. consulate in Benghazi, speaking at the Republican national convention
It's too bad that there IS profit for conservatives in these kinds of statements.
Is this some kind of royal "we"?Delete
Somerby says: "That's because, unlike people like Rep. Wilson, we liberals don't care about kids like Johnson"ReplyDelete
Umm, Rep. Wilson IS a liberal.
"In the immediate aftermath of Trayvon Martin's death, Rep. Wilson referred to it as a "murder." In our view, that wasn't necessarily the wisest thing to do. Can you imagine the way that might have looked, not necessarily incorrectly, to some of The Others? "
I would characterize her statement as a rush to judgment, and "don't rush to judgment" is a good motto for all humans, regardless of politics. But if you admonish her for inflaming the "Others", that's an admonition that cuts both ways. If conservatives react with "liberals are no damn good; Wilson's statement proves it", then their rush to judgment is equally indefensible; indeed it is more indefensible, since it emanates from a pre-existing bias against liberals, a bias that holds an entire group responsible for the statements of one of its members. Wilson's statement, by contrast, was her own reaction to a specific event. Thus, Somerby would hold Wilson, and by extension, all liberals responsible for the prejudices and biases of others, or "the Others."
And even if Somerby's quixotic goal of altering the human nature of liberals were achievable, the human nature of conservatives will not have been changed, and then where would we be?
Finally, Somerby's patronizing attitude towards conservatives is ironic: we "enlightened" liberals have to treat conservatives like children, taking great pains not to insult their fragile feelings. Thus, Somerby embodies the conservative stereotype of liberals as "elite, condescending snobs", a fact that eludes even Somerby's conservative commenters here.
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“General Kelly's insulting behavior toward Rep. Kelly last week was extremely poorly considered.”ReplyDelete
Little typo there Bob, but an inspiring read. You’ve pointed out how a community, aided by programs of the like started by Wilson, make a huge difference in outcomes for disadvantaged youth. And you’re entirely correct that the msm doesn’t, in the main, give a damn about how such programs can literally change lives.
I sometimes despair, however, in the way you parse what people should say, in a perfect way, to express themselves in order not to offend the Other tribe, by imagining what that Tribe might see.
What I find most despairing is that someone like La David seemed to believe that joining the military was his best choice. I don’t know his motivations, but he seems like one of the very last who should have enlisted in our ongoing attempt to maintain what I see as a doomed empire.
I've been a long time Somerby fan but in the matter of the controversy about Rep. Wilson's remarks in 2015 he has been insufferable. Here's what Gen Kelly claims to have recalled from a ceremony that had taken place all of two and a half years earlier:ReplyDelete
[QUOTE] In October, April rather of 2015 I was still on active duty and I went to the dedication of the new FBI field office in Miami. And it was dedicated to two men who were killed in a fire fight in Miami against drug trafficers in 1986 a guy by the name of Grogan and Duke [sic]. Grogan almost retired, fifty-three years old, Duke, I think less than a year on the job. Anyways, they got in a gun fight and they were killed. Three [sic] other FBI agents were there, were wounded, now retired.
So we go down, Jim Comey gave an absolutely brilliant memorial speech to those fallen and to all of the men and women of the FBI who serve our country so well and law enforcement so well.
There were family members there. Some of the children that were there were only three or four years old when their dads were killed on that street in Miami, Dade. Three of the men who survived the fight were there and gave a rendition of how brave those men were and how they gave their lives.
And a congresswoman stood up, and in the long tradition of empty barrels making the most noise, stood up there and all of that and talked about how she was instrumental in getting the funding for that building and how she took care of her constituents because she got the money and she just called up President Obama and on that phone call he gave the money, the $20 million to build a building.
And she sat down and we were stunned, stunned that she'd done it. Even for someone that is that empty a barrel, we were stunned. But you know, none of went to the press and criticized. None of us stood up and were appalled we just said, "OK, fine."
So I still hope as you write your stories and I appeal to America that let's not let maybe this last thing that's held sacred in our society, a young man, young woman going out and giving his or her life for our country. Let's, let's try somehow to keep that sacred. But it eroded a great deal yesterday by the selfish behavior of a member of congress. [END QUOTE]
Bob Somerby says:
[QUOTE] We can imagine Kelly thinking that Rep. Wilson was perhaps out over her skis in some parts of her speech that day. We can imagine him thinking that she was a bit self-aggrandizing.
General Kelly's insulting behavior toward Rep. Kelly last week was extremely poorly considered. It would be a batter world if he had corrected and apologized his faulty factual statements. But we can imagine his general reaction to Rep. Wilson's speech.
We say these things because no one is perfect. There are no perfect messengers; that includes Rep. Wilson... [END QUOTE]
As to the imperfect Rep. Frederica Wilson's remarks at the building dedication ceremony in 2015, here they are:Delete
[QUOTE] ...to acknowledge my colleagues in congress and I want them to stand as I call their names. Ladies first, Congresswoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz who is a fighter and champion of the people, Congressman Mario Diaz-Bolart who has always advocated for the issues which impact our community, Congressman Carlos Curbelo who is new to the congress but blazing his own great trail. And they all helped move this bill.
I also want to take a moment again to recognize the family of Special Agent Rogan who are here with us and the family of Special Agent Dove where ever they might be. We have the honor of having FBI Director James Comey with us. He has the enormous task of keeping all Americans safe and I've seen him so many times but he looks taller today. We're also happy to have GSA Administrator Denise Roth here today, we're fortunate to have a great local leader as the head of the Miami field office, Special Agent in Charge Geroge P. Roth and I also want to acknowledge our mayor.
Consider this scenario: the brand new federal building which will house the FBI has been built and the FBI approaches my office, "Congresswoman Wilson the ribbon cutting ceremony has been scheduled in four short weeks. The dedication is on the government's calendar and cannot be changed. One problem, the FBI wants to name this gorgeous edifice at the same time in four weeks. Everyone said, that's impossible. it takes at least eight months to a year to complete the process through the House, the Senate, and to the president's office." I said, "I'm a school principal," and I said, excuse my French, "Aw hell no, we're going to get this done." [Laughter and applause] Immediately I went into attack mode.
I went to the speaker, Speaker Boehner, I said, "Mr. Speaker I need you help, the FBI needs your help, and our country needs your help. And we have no time to waste." He went into attack mode and in two days pulled it out of committee, brought it to the floor for a vote. Representative Curbelo and I presented it, we all voted and I dashed it over to the senate and put our senators on notice, "Put it on your radar." Senator Nelson and Senator Rubio,who I believe have representatives here today, they hot lined it to the senate floor in just two days. And guess what? The president signed the bill into law this past Tuesday, April 7th, 2015 with a bang, bang, bang. [Applause]
[QUOTE] You know what? I will be presenting a bill, a copy of the bill that was signed into law to the FBI and also the pens that the president used to sign that hallowed document. It is a miracle, to say the least, but it speaks to the respect our congress has for the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the men and women who put their lives on the line every single day. And today we're providing a boost to our nation by naming this fantastic building in honor of Agents Benjamin P. Grogan and Jerry L. Dove who died violently on Friday April 11th, in what is still considered the bloodiest gun battle in the storied history of the FBI.
Most men and women in law enforcement leave their homes for work knowing there is a possibility they may not return. [If] I may, all men and women who work in law enforcement stand up, stand up so that we can applaud you and what you do. [Applause] Stand up! We are proud of you, we're proud of your courage. Thank you.
I don't know if that was on the minds of the Agents Grogan and Dove when they left their homes on April 11th, 1986, but I do know it was an unusually breezy spring morning in south Florida, so eerily, so eerily similar to today. The actual anniversary is tomorrow. I do... know the Miami of the 1980s was plagued by crime and graphic violence, we all know that. This period has been chronicled in media reports and portrayed on the TV show Miami Vice and in movies like Scarface. I know that Agent Grogan was a company man and was one year from retiring. His wife was also an employee of the FBI. I know that Agent Dove joined the Bureau after completing law school and was living his boyhood dream according to his family.
I know that their bravery was the motivation for joining a team on that morning, a team that was tailing a vehicle with two suspects who [were] connected to a string of murders and violent bank robberies. The agents attempted to get the driver to pull over, they were cornered, a gun battle immediately ensued, there was a barrage of bullets. I can only imagine the frustration of those agents, yet they battled on.
In a desperate attempt to flee the suspects tried to commandeer Grogan and Dove's vehicle. It is reported the suspects shot both agents with a high powered rifle at close range. Shortly after the suspects were themselves fatally shot by Agent Morales.
Agent Morales made a memorable statement about his role in that historic event. He said, "I just knew I was going to die but I was going to do my very best to make sure that those suspects did not get away."
When the smoke cleared two agents lay dead and five were seriously injured. So today it is our patriotic duty to lift up Special Agent Benjamin Grogan and Special Agent Jerry Dove from the street in south Florida and place their names and pictures high where the world will know we are proud of their sacrifice, sacrifice for their nation.
It is only fitting that their names should be placed on the same mantel with the letters FBI because Special Agents Grogan and Dove embody the sacred motto for which the agency has become known. Please repeat it after me, "Fidelity, Bravery, and Integrity." God bless you, God bless the FBI, and God bless America. Thank you. [Applause] [END QUOTE]
Go back and read what Gen. Kelly claims to have recalled about Rep. Wilson's remarks. I don't know which would be more problematic, that Kelly thought he could get away with being that dishonest in the White House press room or that he was offering a good faith but utterly distorted account of what he had listened to thirty months ago.
The same thing happened when Obama spoke about killing Osama bin Laden. Republicans posted only the part about Obama and Panetta, and left out all the praise of the military, a good two thirds of his speech.Delete
This works quite well with people that don’t check facts, and claim all rebuttals of their talking points are “typical liberal propaganda”.
CMike I think you make excellent points. The objections to Bob in his comments are usually really lousy stuff that ironically reflects exactly what he's talking about (i.e. tribal thinking). But you make strong points, you don't say a lot of nasty crap, and you support it with quotes. It's sad that I feel this is so unusual, but there you have it.Delete
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"The Others, I might point out, who also may include members of the black community? Does Hillary alienate them with this assertion of murder?"Delete
Typical. You probably feel you're being clever, but in fact you sound more racist than Der Sturmer.
I'm not being sarcastic in the least. Somerby several times now has criticized Rep. Wilson's 2015 remarks:Delete
>>> 2) For ourselves, we can see why Kelly might have thought that Wilson possibly went on a bit this day. Under the circumstances, we'll note a possible irony:
Donald J. Trump's tone is said to have been wrong in his phone call to Sgt. La David Johnson's family this week. We can imagine that the families of two fallen FBI agents might have had a similar reaction to Rep. Wilson's speech back in 2015. <<< LINK
>>> We can see why someone might have thought that Rep. Wilson's speech was a bit tone deaf. Especially during the tribal times which have historically led to our wars, it's important to be able to see the way the world looks to The Others.
It's the oldest fact on the earth. Your team is faulty too. <<< LINK
>>>Tomorrow, we'll discuss Rep. Wilson's 2015 speech. What have liberal stars said about it? What might The Others have seen had they sat next to General Kelly as he watched that speech?? <<< LINK
>>>We can imagine someone thinking that Rep. Wilson was tonally inappropriate at times when she gave that speech in 2015. We can imagine General Kelly thinking that, especially when we remember that his son had died in Iraq in 2010.<<< [Parent post]
I think Somerby is being insufferable. Rep. Wilson's remarks at the building dedication, which took place twenty-nine years after the shoot-out which took the lives of Agents Grogan and Dove, were entirely appropriate. The ceremony was not a memorial service, it did not take place within any socially recognized period of mourning for survivors of the deceased.* Rep. Wilson took pains to honor the memory of the fallen and recognize their families and to honor members of the law enforcement community at large.
(By the way, I don't think Trayvon Martin was murdered. I think he was a victim of the predictable consequence of Florida law which allows concealed carry. My impression is that Martin, driven by boredom not fear, had sized up Zimmerman, the teen-ager correctly assessed that he could beat up the twenty-nine year-old, and proceeded to do so. Tragically, that created a situation where Zimmerman was within his legal rights to use the deadly weapon he was carrying and commit a legally justified homicide.)
* The exception in western culture is that the period of mourning by parents is of indefinite duration and to be self-determined.
Thanks for your thoughtful response. I’ve been away for a while.Delete
I see your point. Bob’s nitpicking on what the Others percieve is in this case insufferable, especially concerning this hoary event. Though I should point out that he gave strong kudos to Wilson for her achievements, in particular how she affected people like La David Johnson.
As far as stand-your-ground laws, well, just because it’s legal doesn’t mean it ain’t murder. Particularly since Zimmerman was the aggressor.
"As far as stand-your-ground laws, well, just because it’s legal doesn’t mean it ain’t murder. Particularly since Zimmerman was the aggressor."Delete
Quoting my dumb self. You already said that. I repeated your point dumbly.
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