An extremely good idea: Starting in March 1999 (at which point he suddenly flipped in his views about Gore), Chris Matthews worked extremely hard to get George W. Bush elected.
He savaged Gore from that point on, often in blatantly crazy ways. His aggressive loathing of Hillary Clinton (AKA Evita/Nurse Ratched) continued through 2008, when a few women's groups finally managed to notice.
After Obama was elected—and after MSNBC had become an officially pro-Democratic channel—he flipped completely on HRC, becoming her biggest fan.
Matthews' conduct in 1999 and 2000 was truly appalling—and he was much more influential back then than he is today. The fact that no liberal so much as said boo about his endless misconduct during those years is a tribute to human ineptitude—and, of course, to journalistic careerism, and to human deceit.
That said, Matthews is doing a good thing tonight—be's visiting darkest PA. He's holding a town hall meeting with Trump voters in Wilkes-Barre, in a part of the state which went for Donald J. Trump.
This behavior is long overdue.
In 2016, Hillary Clinton won the popular vote over Trump by almost 3 million votes. That said, next year's Democratic nominee will probably need to win some Trump voters back.
(Repeat: Some, not all.)
It's astounding to see how little interest MSNBC has ever shown in trying to understand the way such voters see the world—in trying to understand what such voters think, understand and believe. That may be because we think we know who Those People are:
We think Those People are racists.
It's amazing to see how often we state and signal this view. It's based on the oldest pre-rational belief of them all—the belief that Those Very Bad People Are All Exactly Alike.
Those People aren't all alike. None are as fine as We are, of course. But politically and morally, it's a very good idea to ask people what they think.
In March 2017, Bernie Sanders and Chris Hayes staged a televised town hall meeting in West Virginia coal country. Sanders started like this:
HAYES (3/13/17): So Senator, coal, I think, is on a long-term decline. What do you tell the folks here for whom...that is the one job that pays a decent wage and gives benefits?Sanders started his discussion that night with words of admiration, gratitude, respect. He told the people in the hall that their parents had kept his boyhood home warm. He told them they aren't his enemy.
SANDERS: Well, let me be honest and say two things. I think—and disagree with me if you think I'm wrong on this—but coal in this area has been in decline I think, since the '70s and the '80s. It's not anything that's new.
And I think— And second of all, and I know not everybody, you know, will be happy with me saying this—but I happen to believe, unlike the president, that climate change is real and it is a threat to all.
But having said that, I don't hold this gentleman and the coal miners responsible for climate change. In fact, in fact, these guys are heroes.
I remember, I grew up in a rent control apartment house in Brooklyn, New York, and I will never forget the piles of coal. I don't know if it came from here or wherever it came. You kept my house warm. Thank you. So you're not— You are not my enemy.
But what we have to do, in the wealthiest country in the history of the world, what we have to do is to say the choice is not transforming our energy system to protect the planet and throwing people out on the street. The choice is reinvesting in communities that have been devastated by changes in energy and make sure folks have decent paying jobs and we can do that. We are not a poor country.
You don't win back every voter that way. But you don't have to win back every Trump voter. You have to win some, not all.
Night after night, we marvel at MSNBC's lack of interest in what Trump voters think. Why did people vote for Donald J. Trump? In some cases, could it possibly be because they've seen the weird ways we behave?
Bill Clinton [HEART] Pentecostals: Bill Clinton once wrote a very long book. He even quoted us at one point, though sadly enough not by name.
In our view, the most instructive part of the book was his discussion of Arkansas' Pentecostals. They tended to vote against him, he said, but he admired them all the same.
To review what (President) Clinton said about those who aren't just like him, you can just click here. We think that part of the book helps explain how he got to the White House.
In the continuing saga of conflation at TDH, we start out with criticism of Chris Matthews, which morphs into an attack on liberals and their cries of “racist”, to praise of Saint Bernie. That is a logical mess.ReplyDelete
And Somerby can’t be bothered to notice that Elizabeth Warren, whom he has called a “terrible politician”, just recently visited that same West Virginia and received a warm welcome there. Not to mention, of course, the time that Hillary, dubbed by TDH as a “very poor candidate”, visited W Va, after her remarks were taken out of context by the GOP and the media. Kamala Harris, a leader with poor skills according to TDH, will hold two town halls in South Carolina in the near future.
So it seems that Somerby needs to update his talking points about “liberals” or just acknowledge that he is putting his thumb on the scales for Bernie.
The column is about MSNBC - how little interest it has ever shown in trying to understand the way Trump voters see the world.Delete
MSNBC is part of the cult that refuses to call out the Right-wing as the bigots they are...Delete
That's not a recipe for political success and, in general, pointing out how horrible Trump is bump up against the law of diminishing returns very quickly.
Thank you for pointing out the reason MSNBC and the rest of the corporate-owned media refuse to call out the Right-wing for the bigots they are, is It might effect their bottom line. The rest of us non-media owners have no excuse not to point out the truth.
@7:05: I think that you might have misunderstood my comment. When I say the 'law of diminishing returns', I am simply pointing out that that you're not going to get anywhere by harping on how horrible of a human Trump is.Delete
At the same time, calling everyone who voted for him an unmitigated racist is just plain wrong.
6:15 is God's gift to the Trump election campaign.Delete
There is scant to zero evidence that any Trump voters are likely to not vote for Trump.Delete
Dems need to focus on increasing the percentage of their supporters actually voting. Trying to win back Trump supporters is futile and a waste of time and effort.
Anti-Trump rhetoric is just one tool in energizing the base for Dems who might otherwise stay at home.
There is no way to prove or disprove all Trump voters being racist, I think it is fairly accurate.
It is silly to think a politician throwing meager understanding to some tiny subset group - coal miners, or pentecostals - plays any role in winning an election, noble gesture it may be.
Hopefully, 12:21's cries for "political correctness" will be heard above the din.Delete
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"Sanders started his discussion that night with words of admiration, gratitude, respect"ReplyDelete
Everyone knows that liberals will say anything to get power. And "why can't we all get along" is their favorite mantra.
Old psycho-witch's much discussed 'deplorables' slip is an exception that proves the rule.
If elected, everyone of these clowns (Sanders included) would continue serving international capital, de-industrializing the country, and policing the world, solely for the interests of their masters. All the while singing kumbaya, to pleasure their pet zombies. That's all.
The last person to realize every Right-wing accusation is a confession, please turn out the lights.Delete
Somerby shows his ambivalence toward women with a gratuitous swipe: "when a few women's groups finally managed to notice," as if women's groups and women as individuals hadn't been noticing every time some figure in the media does something nasty against Hillary. How much time and energy (and $) would it take to address every single nasty attack made against Hillary during that election. Many of them came from Obama's camp. Many came from the media.ReplyDelete
Somerby has no way of knowing whether or how frequently or how vehemently women's groups may have been on the phone with the showrunners and with Matthews' staff and with others behind the scenes trying to address this stuff. Going to the media (where Somerby would see it) is a last resort because it alienates the people whose behavior you are trying to change. And it isn't Hillary's style, which is why many of us voted for her.
But Somerby is an ass, so he can't help inserted phrases like this, even when he is talking about something else.
"In 2016, Hillary Clinton won the popular vote over Trump by almost 3 million votes. That said, next year's Democratic nominee will probably need to win some Trump voters back."ReplyDelete
Actually, with third party candidates in the 2016 race, the Democratic nominee may only need to win them back and GOTV, not addressing any Trump voters at all. Voter suppression hurt Hillary, not any appeal of Trump's. The people who voted for Trump are a lost cause. They are either too deplorable to vote for a Democrat, or too stupid to reject Trump's appeal. They will vote for him again. But independents may not, nor will any of the people who bought into the propaganda against Hillary (although one can make an argument about their inherent stupidity too, if they went for Jill Stein or wrote in Bernie).
Hillary visited PA repeatedly and was very strong in the urban areas, but lost in rural and suburban areas. It is striking how similar Sanders remarks are to those Hillary made to coal workers in WV. It wasn't what she said that was wrong, but what was said about her and excerpted out of context. Maybe Sanders will get that treatment, maybe not. He didn't attract much of the low-education, middle-aged male blue collar vote in 2016. All the analyses are saying that it was racism and sexism that drove Democratic voters to Trump, not Hillary's position on coal. It is hard to see how Bernie's statements about coal are going to bring back those racists and sexists when Trump is still telling them what they want to hear. Bernie gave coded sexist messages in 2016, but he may be more overt against his various female and minority opponents. As of now, he is having his surrogates attack them. Unlike Biden, Sanders approves of hitting enemy Democrats hard via social media and his bros, then giving mild rebukes when pressed on it, while doing nothing to rein in the youthful enthusiasm of his supporters. Maybe PA will go for that approach. Or maybe, he will just have to tell them it is OK to vote again and thanks for the help last time.
Clinton's book is excellent and worth reading all the way through. Of course it explains why got elected -- that is what it is about. Bill Clinton is probably the least mean-spirited person on the planet, next to Jimmy Carter. He wouldn't say most of the stuff Somerby does. Hillary learned from Bill (who credits his own political mentor Fulbright for teaching him this) to take those listening tours before an election. Hillary did it throughout New York State before running for Senator. Now Somerby thinks Sanders invented it. Bill Clinton Hearted everybody but it didn't lead to him surrendering his values or implementing things he didn't personally believe in, because he could listen without pandering or selling out or being swayed. It helped him formulate programs that worked well, but it didn't turn him into a politician in the worst sense. Neither did Hillary, but people portrayed her that way. Why do you suppose Hillary gets maligned for doing the same things that Bill and Bernie do? Why is Somerby so enthusiastic about Bernie, who has done very little in the Senate, and not about Elizabeth Warren, who holds closely similar views and has accomplished a great deal as a Senator? Why don't accomplishments matter to Somerby?
This comment has been removed by the author.Delete
“Bill Clinton is probably the least mean-spirited person on the planet…”Delete
Riiight. That’s why he signed the legislation repealing Glass-Steagall. That’s why he signed on to Welfare Reform. That’s why he signed the 1996 Telecommunications Act. Did I mention Kosovo? No, I see, I forgot. But what a nice guy!
Clinton aligned himself with Republican wet dreams. All part of his supposed “triangulation.” Fuck Bill Clinton.
“Why don't accomplishments matter to Somerby?” That’s actually a good question, but you young’uns always forget: This website is dedicated to media criticism, not your dream of seeing Somerby align with you’re supposed World View, stunted as it is.
He signed Glass-Steagall because it was passed by a veto-proof majority. Welfare reform was a compromise with a Republican majority. He didn't push any of that. Obama aligned himself with Republicans more than Clinton, and for similar reasons.Delete
You are not liberal and you don't belong here. Defending Somerby is your biggest giveaway.
Now you've done it, @8:50. Leroy is crying. I hope you're proud of yourself.Delete
Since you're now the arbiter of who's liberal and who's not and who can comment here and who can't, will you please use a nym so I can distinguish you from the other numbskulls posting as Anonymous.
Thanks in advance.
Seigneur, faites de moi un instrument de votre paix.Delete
Là où il y a de la haine, que je mette l'amour.
Là où il y a l'offense, que je mette le pardon.
Là où il y a la discorde, que je mette l'union.
Là où il y a l'erreur, que je mette la vérité.
Là où il y a le doute, que je mette la foi.
Là où il y a le désespoir, que je mette l'espérance.
Là où il y a les ténèbres, que je mette votre lumière.
Là où il y a la tristesse, que je mette la joie.
Ô Maître, que je ne cherche pas tant
à être consolé qu'à consoler,
à être compris qu'à comprendre,
à être aimé qu'à aimer,
car c'est en donnant qu'on reçoit,
c'est en s'oubliant qu'on trouve,
c'est en pardonnant qu'on est pardonné,
c'est en mourant qu'on ressuscite à l'éternelle vie.
"Sanders started his discussion that night with words of admiration, gratitude, respect. He told the people in the hall that their parents had kept his boyhood home warm. He told them they aren't his enemy."ReplyDelete
Who told any of those people that they were anyone's enemy, in the first place? No Democrat did that. Those workers were historically Democratic voters until the recent past. Why do you suppose they changed all of a sudden?
I wonder what was different about Obama that might have changed their votes? He didn't call them enemies of the planet.
I wonder what was different about Hillary that might have changed their votes? She didn't call them enemies of the planet?
Gosh, I wonder what happened?
It can't be racism or sexism because Somerby doesn't believe in that, and neither do Republicans. It is probably because Democrats told them they couldn't hate black people and had to vote for one, and Democrats told them they couldn't disrespect women by keeping them in second-class status while doing whatever they wanted to them, and instead had to vote for one, strutting around in pans as if she were a man and telling men what to do.
Somerby thinks we cannot talk about racism and sexism openly because it might hurt the feelings of coal miners and Trump voters. We have to show respect for them because we needed their coal in the past and they were heroes then, so any bad thing they want to do to women and minorities is a small price to pay, if only they will recognize that Democrats are not going to take their racism, sexism and guns away from them.
Bill Clinton never told the Pentecostals he was going to take their snakes away. What a guy!
As far as I am concerned Chris Matthews has been done to death. What I want to propose 3:09 is that you and me go on an exploratory romp, together.Delete
Trying to romp but there's too much mud.Delete
That's right, 3:09. We can't point out their racism and sexism, because it's not politically correct.Delete
Yet, still, some people won't believe every Right-wing accusation is a confession.
Every left wing accusation about every right wing accusation, or about anything else, is a cry for help from someone who never learned to reconcile with reality and might benefit from medication.Delete
The state legislatures, and right-wing fanboys, of Alabama, Missouri, and Georgia would like you to remember "Democrats are the party of big government".
Repeating a comment I made before, local Bay Area pol, Joe Simitian, did something like this a while ago. He discovered that people voted for Trump because of jobs, not because of bigotry. You can watch his excellent talk at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpgUw_B19G0ReplyDelete
The people who call it racism are suffering from trauma. Trump's election literally traumatized them. PTSD. They had to invent the racism excuse as a way to deal with the trauma.Delete
Some blamed racism for voters who supported Obama but not Hillary Clinton.Delete
"...people voted for Trump because of jobs, not because of bigotry."Delete
Ha ha ha ha ha ha Good one.
"Trump's election literally traumatized them. PTSD. They had to invent the racism excuse as a way to deal with the trauma."Delete
It also traumatized Trump voters.
They suddenly didn't give a flying fuck about the Treasury being handed to Wall Street, Fossil fuel executives running the EPA. Grifters, like Betsy DeVos running the Department of Education, or even Ivanka and Jared's private servers.
Everyone's head exploded when the bad actor won the election.
Your link leads to a conservative post, not to Simitian's webpage. Simitian himself is quoted as saying that his poll was informal and that he deliberately selected former Obama voters who switched to Trump. He uses the examples to support his own conclusions about the desperation of some people in difficult job situations. Simitian is in Palo Alto, which is Silicon Valley, a place with its own unique economic problems and demographics. It would be hard to argue that even Trump voters are typical of the nation if they live in Palo Alto.Delete
Then the commenter (not Simitian) says some ignorant things about studies of political opinions (which he says find 5-7 dimensions because of academic paper length, not the structure of the data sets) and concludes that Republicans are superior to Democrats because Republicans think about more dimensions whereas Democrats have two main concerns that overwhelm the other dimensions important to Republicans. This is a topic irrelevant to the poll Simitian took, which wasn't actually a poll at all but a search for anecdotes to support his desire to advocate for jobs and economic relief.
There have been several major polls now that all come to the conclusion that Trump voters are not motivated by economic distress but by racism and sexism. It may be unpleasant to hear that about one's voting group, but that is what well-conducted legitimate studies have found repeatedly now.
David, you supposedly know the difference between a legitimate study and an "informal" poll like the one you posted about above. Yet you presented this anyway, knowing that it does not support your claim. That is dishonest, because you knew better and did it anyway. If there are any doubts about whether you are well-intentioned or a troll, stuff like this puts you firmly in the troll category.
@6:29, David in Cal is neither dishonest nor a troll. Both require a modicum of intellectual ability. David is, in fact, a moral and intellectual idiot, the Village Idiot of this comment section. He really doesn't know the difference and he doesn't know better. He simply has no capacity to know.Delete
We don't impute agency to idiots so it's as cruel to criticize him for his failings as it is useless to admonish him.
And ... tone can not be expressed in words, only sound.Delete
Speaking of ideiots ;)
I'm a teamster.Delete
I know it’s just a comment section on a little-read blog, but would it kill you quote me correctly?Delete
Once you’ve read what I actually wrote, then you can take my little test.
Now, tell me the tone of The Merchant of Venice.
What about Pride and Prejudice and Zombies?
To answer your question, I’m entitled to call anyone an idiot because of the 1st Amendment; I’m correct to call David in Cal an idiot because he is one. I don’t see how either of those statements fails to obtain because I was wrong, even if egregiously wrong, about a linguistic matter.
Don’t misunderstand me — I’m not objecting to you (or anyone else) calling me an idiot, or even an “ideiot.” I don’t even object to your throwing in an emoticon. Someone who’s as snide, rude, boorish, and contemptuous as I can hardly complain when invective comes his way.
But that’s pretty much all this is. Would you like to define tone to make sure we’re talking about the same thing? Would you like to give me examples where written words convey unambiguous tone? Would you like to cite particular types of writing that inevitably convey tone?
Perhaps I'll conclude I made a silly mistake. Or perhaps I'll have to revise a claim that you've convinced me is too broad.
None of the tasks I mentioned is anyone’s obligation to provide (although given your flip certainty, you must think it an easy exercise). After all, your schedule may be more constrained than my own, leaving you just enough time to drop by and call me an idiot. This may even have given you a frisson of superiority.
If so, all to the good. Vivo ut serviam. But don't expect me to take you seriously.
"There is no "tone" in written text. That's for speech."Delete
That is such a dumb, dumb thing to say. What made you say that? "There is no "tone" in written text."??? People talk about tone policing and tone arguments in comment sections all the time.
When you were young do you think maybe you fell on your head? Or...
Stupid pills? What is your excuse?
Maybe you can take some rest. Get a heating pad. You have no business calling others idiots. I'm just saying homie.
"There is no "tone" in written text. That's for speech."
I don't have to convince you of anything. Why would I care what an ignoramus thinks?Delete
"There is no "tone" in written text. That's for speech." Is unquestionably an ignorant and false claim.
Call an relative and arrange to take a weekend relaxing. Maybe drinking root beer or God, I don't know. Find a hammock or a canoe. Try to reset your frazzled and damaged intellect.
"They had to invent the racism excuse as a way to deal with the trauma."Delete
Nah. I don't think 'invent' works here. This is a textbook case of projection, imo.
Those who merely invent excuses for their failures do it to calm down and move on.
Liberal zombies, on the other hand, exist, since 11/9/2016, in the constant state of temper tantrum.
"Would you like to cite particular types of writing that inevitably convey tone?"Delete
Would that make your original claim any less stupid and wrong?
People talk about tone policing and tone arguments in comment sections all the time
Of course they do. And they also call spirits from the vasty deep. Does that mean either one is there for them to detect reliably?
We infer tone from written text all the time. But that’s us, working from what context we perceive without feedback from the writer. Why do you think there are “tone arguments” all the time?
“dumb, dumb thing to say”
“Stupid pills? What is your excuse?”
Do you feel better now that you’ve called me names? Perhaps well enough to marshal an actual argument?
(I don’t mind that you’ve called me names, and I realize that I have no call on your time.)
I can’t tell one Anonymous from another, but did you take the test I mentioned in my last post? Can you answer the questions I posed?
You have no business calling others idiots.
First of all, it’s just one idiot, David in Cal.
Why, again, shouldn’t I call him an idiot? Because it’s rude? Because I’m wrong about him? Or because you think I’m wrong on a linguistic issue?
Or are you one of those who think I said that Lord of the Flies wasn’t metaphorical?
It’s hard to tell.
Would that make your original claim any less stupid and wrong?
It might go some way to demonstrating it if it is. Give it a shot.
Maybe deadrat could find one of those silent meditation retreats. You can't fix stupid but maybe the cumulative relaxation would lead to less embarrassingly daft decisions. Or maybe fishing as you say. Milk baths seem to help in situations like this too. Not sure exactly what I would do if I were faced with his situation.Delete
That's him on his kneesDelete
I know that's him
Yeah, from 7 come 11
Down in the boys' gym
Charlie Brown, Charlie Brown
He's a clown, that Charlie Brown
He's gonna get caught
Just you wait and see
(Why's everybody always pickin' on me)
Say what you will about deadrat, one thing he unquestionably does not understand is the concept of tone in written composition.Delete
David in Ca and Mao are treasures in the sea of braindead lefty estrogen poisoned zombies.Delete
AnonymousMay 16, 2019 at 6:29 PM - Did you get the wrong link somehow? My link leads to a speech Simitian gave to the Commonwealth Club in SF. Here's the link again https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpgUw_B19G0Delete
Simitian is a Democrat, not a Trump voter. A Trump voter couldn't be elected to any position in our area. You are right that his work was not a formal poll, but rather an interview with people in three cities that supported Obama and then supported Trump.
AnonymousMay 16, 2019 at 6:29 PM - I would add this. I referenced Joe Simitian's talk because I attended one of his presentations and heard him deliver it. I never said he was presenting formal poll. Joe Simitian is a smart, well-intentioned liberal Democrat, whose opinion was not just based on POOMA. Other Democrats would be wise to pay attention to people like Joe.Delete
@6:29 - the polls I saw purporting to show Trump voters motivated by racism have been bogus. E.g., consider this one I just came across. The headline says, RESEARCH FINDS THAT RACISM, SEXISM, AND STATUS FEARS DROVE TRUMP VOTERS Yet, the text says a new study foundDelete
Most importantly, they indicated their views on three key issues: trade, immigration, and the United States' relationship with China. They were specifically asked whether the U.S. should have more or fewer trade agreements with other nations; whether a pathway to U.S. citizenship should be offered to undocumented immigrants; and whether China's emergence as a rival superpower is more an opportunity or a threat.
Another study takes statements that are not explicitly racist or sexist and arbitrarily asserts that agreement with these statements shows that one is a bigot.
Nice. Now that "the rigged economy", "Wall Street running the Treasury", "economic anxiousness", etc have been disproven as reasons that drove Trump voters, they are moving on to new excuses which are more opaque. Let's hope these new ones stick, so we won't notice it was their bigotry.Delete
Judge Orders Transcript of Obstruction-of-Justice Phone Call by May 31
Gee, I wonder why "coverup" Billybarr would want to cover up more evidence of Donald J Chickenshit's treason and criminal obstruction of justice?
What do you think, David, you treasonous bastard?
David in Cal March 23, 2019 at 10:07 PM
This is the new Democratic talking point, but it won't last long. First of all, just about nobody opposes releasing the Mueller Report - not even Trump.
mm - what I think is that I hope this transcript is released publicly. Government transparency is good, regardless of which party it embarrasses.Delete
@1:48A: People talk about tone policing and tone arguments in comment sections all the time.Delete
I have been remiss in not thanking you for citing evidence in support of your contention, even if I don’t find it convincing.
Now, your problem is to determine the tone. Was this sincere appreciation for your effort or a sarcastic response to it? These carry diametrically opposed meanings, so it’s important to get it right to determine the meaning I intended.
On the one hand, it has all the syntactic properties and vocabulary of a statement of gratitude.
On the other, I have a long history of alternating between being dismissively contemptuous and contemptuously dismissive of those I disagree with.
Go ahead. Police that tone.
deadratMay 17, 2019 at 1:56 PMDelete
You seem to be unaware of your own tone. This suggests a cognitive disorder. I think if people understand that better, they might be kinder towards you. Those disordered as such will deny they seek such a goal, in reality it is their main motivation.
Your tone? I'm a little rusty but it is something like this:
Please, please, please, pay attention to me!!!!!!
Please please please
you have a long history of being stupid and wrong.
I’ll cop to my share of stupid. What else do you think I’ve been wrong about?
boring, banal, quixotic and feeble
Oh, dear! I suppose that would have hurt my feelings, if I had any.
It sounds like reading my comments is intolerable drudgery to you, and yet, here you are responding. There’s a simple solution — stop reading my comments. It’s what I do with Mao, and I find it simple and effective.
What’s stopping you?
I’ll assume I was unclear. I suppose the producers of users manuals for appliances and mathematicians submitting proofs to journals have little need for tone, but for the most part writers intend tone. And readers infer tone. But the bare words themselves don’t convey tone, which is (if you’ll forgive a telephony metaphor) out of band. Readers must rely on their context and personal experience to discern tone. Sometimes they’re right (in the sense that the author would agree with their interpretation) and sometimes they’re wrong. But they’re always going beyond the mere glyphs, which is what makes it a difficult and fault-prone task.
pathetic lame brain
Dear me. Feel better now? If the purpose of these exchanges is to call me names, I don’t have any objection, but then aren’t we done?
You seem to be unaware of your own tone.
Really? “Rude, snide, boorish, and contemptuous” doesn’t about cover it for you?
This suggests a cognitive disorder.
Which one? Please use the DSM-V. Lack of self-awareness appears in the diagnostic descriptions, but not concerning tone, only about other symptoms.
I think if people understand that better, they might be kinder towards you.
You mean here? Do you suppose I depend on the kindness of strangers? Trust me, I’m not the Blanche DuBois of this commentariat.
Your tone? … Please, please, please, pay attention to me!!!!!!
Ah, that’s not tone. You’re talking about my intent and motivation. I’m not going to deny your claim about that for two reasons. First, I have no way to do that credibly. What can I post? “Is not”?
Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, people are rarely entirely cognizant of their entire motivations, so you just might be right. But realize that you’re deeply into your own head here. Because, well, because you have no access to mine.
Doesn’t make you wrong, of course, which isn’t to say you’re right.
But here’s the thing — how does an alleged cognitive disorder and bad motivation affect my claim about writing?
Great music, wonderful film, BTW.
Mao does not make arrogant "public" pronouncements full of asterisks and flim flam like you do. You take it upon yourself to get up on a soapbox in a self-centered, stupid, public way declaring other people idiots when you are obviously an uneducated dolt yourself full of your "share of stupid".Delete
Stop the public pronouncements and you'll never hear from me again.
deadrat (and I mean the original, not the pathetic poseur), your stamina for dealing with this board is, alas, never going to change its timbre, though I’m an admirer of your efforts. They’re almost better than Somerby himself.Delete
But I wonder, even as we speak of tone in the written word, which is an obvious thing, why the idea of music as a conveyor of tone has been overlooked so far. After all, a purely musical composition can evoke deep emotion. ImpCaesarAvg, where you been?
A simple facial expression can say more than words ever could, even though a writer might try to convey those expressions in text. That is to say, the idea of a lack of “tone” being absent in writing, as opposed to speaking, is a ridiculous argument. Whatever.
And fuck Bill Clinton. If he was a liberal, a term which has lost all meaning, then I’ll take a pass. Same goes for his wife.
Sorry for my tone, I couldn’t help it. ; )
And here I thought I was doing a public service saving people time debunking David in Cal’s torrent of nonsense. And this is the thanks I get?
Can you point out any “flim flam” in my announcements, anything actually wrong?
I didn’t think so. So it’s the asterisks that bother you?
Here’s an easy solution: don’t read my so-called Public Service Announcements about David in Cal. Problem solved, no?
Mao’s posts always contain the same idea: “Dembot zombie!” That’s what you find superior? By the way, that not reading thing works well for me and Mao’s comments. I don’t see why it wouldn’t work with you and mine.
Don’t go pluralizing my efforts. The only person I’ve ever declared an idiot is David in Cal. If you think that’s an inappropriate judgment, I can add you to the list. If you think it’s just too rude, then you’re a better person than I am.
you are obviously an uneducated dolt yourself full of your "share of stupid”.
We all carry our share of stupid, Anonymous @10:03. But “uneducated”? Damn. Four years of Ivy League tuition down the drain.
Stop the public pronouncements and you'll never hear from me again.
This would be more effective if you could post a gif of this message made of letters cut out from magazines.
But not much. Why would I give a shit whether I hear from you again? And how could I tell you from the other Anonymi Ignorami?
Leroy, thanks for your kind words. I feel like I am special. Moreso than most.Delete
Good point about music. Think about the tone expressed here:
Thanks, but it’s not that difficult. All I need is a deep love for the sound of my own voice and of course, the quality of Anonymous correspondents I’ve attracted here. That sound, by the way, reverberates in my head as I write. My readers can’t hear it, though, as much as they claim they can.
See my comment @7:56. Writers intend tone; readers infer it. I maintain that the glyphs don’t convey it. Why is that “lack” ridiculous?
Let’s speak of music. Can looking at the score of a symphony evoke the same emotion as hearing its performance?
As I’ve tired of the tone argument, I’ve wondered why this topic of all I’ve posted about has generated the responses that it has. After all, it’s a linguistic issue unconnected with the theme of this blog. And if I’m wrong, then surely a cogent argument can demonstrate that, and then … I’m wrong. I can understand the urge to call me an idiot since I do play an unrepentant jerk in this commentariat. But that opportunity is available daily. Why tone?
Yeah, fuck Bill Clinton. After I listened to John Oliver interview Monica Lewinsky, I realized that I’ve been remiss in not loathing the man more over the past 20+ years.
But fuck Newt Gingrich more.
And what tone? [Insert the emoticon of your choice here. I’m too old to do them.]
“I maintain that the glyphs don’t convey it. Why is that “lack” ridiculous?”Delete
I wrote “That is to say, the idea of a lack of “tone” being absent in writing, as opposed to speaking, is a ridiculous argument.”
deadrat, that was not a criticism of your argument, but I will try to explain why I wrote that.
Part of it is because I learned the Socratic method after visiting this website lo these many years ago. Found it on MediWhoresOnline, a now defunct website. Whatever.
You’re a challenge, so I’ll do my best, even though…
“All I need is a deep love for the sound of my own voice…”
Exactly. That’s why we all post here.
“Let’s speak of music. Can looking at the score of a symphony evoke the same emotion as hearing its performance?”
No, unless you’re a Bach or Red Priest. I thought the idea was “tone,” and I didn’t even read half of the commentariat. Music evokes emotion due to its tone, the creation of which I submit must be a fact of human evolution. We know what we like, so we adjust our music-making ability/evolvement capacity to enjoy/convey tone. It may be true that capitalism has diminished our exposure to this idea. Another form of evolution, I suppose.
“I can understand the urge to call me an idiot since I do play an unrepentant jerk in this commentariat. But that opportunity is available daily. Why tone?”
Being an unrepentant jerk is what they now call people who stand up for what they believe. That reminds me of a song.
I kind of hated it when I first heard it. Best line might be “leaning on your ghost” because of the multiplicity of meanings. Hard to say anyway.
Interesting that your post reflected Western scale patterns, even though it’s clearly African in origin, so it lacks the quarter-tones present in so much of “their” music.
I get that your tired of this tone argument. This thread being written rather than spake was dumb in its own unique way. But my own voice sometimes gets to rattling around in my head, and I can’t help but express them with glyphs. As you do quite well.
“Writers intend tone; readers infer it. I maintain that the glyphs don’t convey it. Why is that “lack” ridiculous?”
You answered your own question. “Writers intend tone; readers infer it.” We all have powerful memes running around in our heads, bonking off the walls. If we’re lucky enough to be educated and able to read stuff, we can infer tone. Blah blah blah.
The whole point of the skeptical community is to seek truth rather than accepted dogma, as you well know. So here we are. My own glyph-reading brought me here, in a positive way. But I do not suffer fools, I just scroll past them. But I look out for your Nym, as well as several others. And sometimes I dip my toes into the the barrel. It’s so easy here. And that’s not a criticism, otherwise I would be criticizing myself.
Peace on Earth. It’s a beautiful day.
As usual, I looked at my own post, and there was a busted linkDelete
This comment has been removed by the author.Delete
I stand by my original assertion: there is no tone in written text.Delete
"I stand by my original assertion: there is no tone in written text."Delete
As well you should. Hell, I was expecting a beatdown. And in fact I got it, but in a different way. Thanks for the links my friend. Lots of stuff I hadn't heard in while, or ever.
Beatdown? By me?Delete
Why would you think that? I enjoyed your post; I just didn't find much about the difference between readin' and writin'.
It's a good thing the faux deadrat has good taste in music.
How about the King covers the best Dylan song you never heard?Delete
Nick Drake covers it too.
The King without the kitsch. Beautiful, but incongruous to me. I need the rasp of Dylan with the sorrow of the lyrics to contrast with the upbeat music. Try the original artist:Delete
I'll take "NInety Miles an Hour Down a Dead End Street." Sorry, no link to Dylan.
All I meant by beatdown was a a cogent refutation. It was inappropos. And you actually achieved it with one sentence, because I agree with your premise.Delete
As far as fake deadrat, I suppose you're left with trying to take it as a compliment. It did post some good and actually hilarious stuff.
Jeezus, I hate feeding the trolls. Because someone who can't express their own online identity in a reliable fashion definitely fits the category.
I don't know if any candidate will be able to siphon off many of the Trump votes. Once people become invested like that -- particularly voting for someone as demonstrably sociopathic and unhinged as Trump -- it's very hard for them to admit that they were wrong. However, given the slim margins in a number of states, Democrats should be able to garner enough new votes to defeat Trump. So, I don't think that it's about taking votes away from Trump. All the same, it's a good strategy not to alienate people.ReplyDelete
The problem is that Somerby's idea of not alienating people is to stop calling out racism and sexism when it occurs.Delete
The way to eliminate racist and sexist behaviors, which harm people in many ways and are not good for society, is to call them out when they occur, to try to remedy any harm and to make sure there are not institutional factors that support such behaviors. This has been happening a lot and that is why "The Others" are upset and seeking redress from someone like Trump. This is about resistance to social change. The solution is not to roll back the change because some people are upset by it, because that would permit more harm to innocent people who are the targets of racism and sexism. The solution is for The Others to get used to the demands of an inclusive modern society.
This is a choice between the needs of bewildered Others who are being asked to stop being racist and sexist and innocent members of minority groups and women in second class status. Who has the stronger claim? For Republicans, it is the upset white guys. For Democrats, it is the minorities and women. That is because (as David's paloalto website points out), Democrats are more concerned about Justice whereas Republicans are more concerned about Tradition, Religious values, Economic Security, and Safety (a little bit of each or different factors emphasizing each factor), making Republicans more heterogeneous in their values, more of a coalition than Democrats.
Somerby comes down on the "don't upset the white guys" side of things, so that puts him with the Republicans. He thinks women are opportunists and he seems to think that beautiful black children will not ever do well in school, so he doesn't seem to have much affinity for the needs of diverse people and women.
Republican aren't bigots. If they were, they'd pass laws cementing the the 2nd class status of women.ReplyDelete
Lordy, he is a pillsbury doughboy, isn't he.ReplyDelete
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